How do you discern metaphysical truth?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

Because I have to. I have to eat, even though eating is boring.

Some people really like food- they really enjoy the tastes. Focusing on the moment gives them pleasure. I'm not one of them. To me food just doesn't taste that good. Some foods taste bad and some foods taste neutral or kind of ok. I eat foods that are healthy and taste neutral or kind of ok.

90% of things are uninteresting. eating, sleeping, driving to work, working, cooking dinner, doing the laundry, etc. These things just don't provide much sensory pleasure in my opinion, in sensation or thought. They have to be done for maintenance, though. Why would I want to focus on them? Why would I want to be present, other than for practical reasons (ie driving safely or working intelligently)?

The other 10% or so, peak experiences, are worth focusing on. Adrenaline rushes from doing something exciting, sex, having a glass of wine and enjoying the warmth, seeing a really good movie or a really good piece of artwork, the one time I did cannabis, getting a massage, walking barefoot through grass or through waves on a beach, thinking of somethings really interesting and ingenious, etc. I can see how it's important to focus on and be present during those things, as there's somethings worth being present for.

Well, you could:

(a) try to have interesting experiences more often; and
(b) minimise your time spent on uninteresting experiences.

I would also add that experiences that seem uninteresting to you have this odd tendency to become interesting, once you start placing a lot of attention of them (i.e once you start being more present, in the here and now of the experience).

In fact, suppose two people did the same activity (eg cooking; or working; or drinking wine; or getting a massage) and one person found it interesting, and the other person did not. If you respectively asked them to describe their experiences, you'd probably notice that the person who enjoyed the experience will be able to describe the activity in greater detail (i.e he was more attentive and more present).

Eg the guy who enjoyed the wine might be able to tell you a lot about the colour, the smell, the taste, the aftertaste, of the wine. The guy who did not enjoy the wine might just say: "Errrr, it tasted like .... wine. I don't really know wines, they all taste the same to me."

Lots of experiences become more interesting, when you're more present in the experience, more attentive, more absorbed, more engaged. It's not about the inherent attributes or characteristics of the activity; it's about the inherent attributes and characteristics of your mind that you bring to the activity. Doesn't matter so much whether you're watching a movie; having sex; petting a dog; or walking barefoot on grass.

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

People that have metaphysical experiences usually report that they are wonderful, beyond anything physical.

Well, if you're a materialist, then I don't think you could ever get anything 'beyond' physical. That said, 'physical' isn't all that bad, perhaps a bit mundane as you have mentioned. In any case, now that I've read a bit more of this thread, it seems to me that those metaphysical truths that you are attempting to discern if true or false lie in the indeterminable category. If you don't want this to be the case, I'm equally sure you can find some metaphysical loophole around it too.

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

If there is any objective truth at all in metaphysics, shouldn't it be reasonably accessible to both thinkers and feelers?

Yes (i.e. if it's indeterminable or not, see above).

Also, listen to ALG.

[wolfgang]

Valkyrie: I know you said you have tried things. Were all the things you tried like meditation techniques only? Like sit down, close you eyes, imagine this or focus on that? Repeat this internally? Or to read a bunch of someone else's beliefs and then try to figure out how to believe that? Go on thought experiments and logically trying to decide if it makes sense to try to believe that party line?

I'm just curious if you have done anything that isn't sitting or thinking or imagining? Like Tai Chi or Yoga or martial arts or body work (massage, acupuncture, cranial sacral therapy).

Or maybe something more direct for getting you brain into a whole brain state - biofeed back? Entrainment audios?

It seems to me (I'm like this somewhat too) there is a lot of mental activity but not much body or heart focus in how you are approaching metaphysical pursuits. But I could be wrong that I'm only able to read the part of you that is thinking about all this.

[nicbrahms]

Well for me the more in tune I get with my divine self the easier it is to fathom if something is not true and if something is.

So feelings are a guide for me, I often times will read something that starts to make me agitated, at that point I realise that it must be crap, so I usually don't continue to read it.

However, when something rings true, I have a feeling of coming home, like I already knew and the information supports that.

Quite interesting cause it works with everything, from people, situations in life, whether you are lying to yourself etc.

Remember we each know the truth already, and anything that corroborates this metaphysically will just feel right, fit in.

Its quite lovely cause alot of what you know gets thrown up in ideas and theories you ruminate on, and then hey presto you stumble accross something that corroborates your thinking completely.

Whatever synchs is usually right, whether this works from a lower vibration who knows.

[Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Well .... The primary benefit of focusing on the now is not to discern metaphysical truth. The primary benefit is the alleviation of your own suffering.

Why? Because the most common forms of human suffering - eg fear, worry, anger, resentment etc - stems from thoughts of the past, or thoughts of the future.

Nevertheless, I believe that focusing on the now can ultimately help you to discern at least some metaphysical truth. Eg the metaphysical truth about how the reality we normally regard as "reality" is mostly illusion (because it's so heavily layered with our own thoughts about the past + present).

I agree that focusing on the now is not going to discern much metaphysical truth. I feel that those who have suggested it have suggested it in the wrong context.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Well, you could:

(a) try to have interesting experiences more often; and
(b) minimise your time spent on uninteresting experiences.

I would also add that experiences that seem uninteresting to you have this odd tendency to become interesting, once you start placing a lot of attention of them (i.e once you start being more present, in the here and now of the experience).

In fact, suppose two people did the same activity (eg cooking; or working; or drinking wine; or getting a massage) and one person found it interesting, and the other person did not. If you respectively asked them to describe their experiences, you'd probably notice that the person who enjoyed the experience will be able to describe the activity in greater detail (i.e he was more attentive and more present).

Eg the guy who enjoyed the wine might be able to tell you a lot about the colour, the smell, the taste, the aftertaste, of the wine. The guy who did not enjoy the wine might just say: "Errrr, it tasted like .... wine. I don't really know wines, they all taste the same to me."

Lots of experiences become more interesting, when you're more present in the experience, more attentive, more absorbed, more engaged. It's not about the inherent attributes or characteristics of the activity; it's about the inherent attributes and characteristics of your mind that you bring to the activity. Doesn't matter so much whether you're watching a movie; having sex; petting a dog; or walking barefoot on grass.

I guess.

But my personal experience is that the more I focus on something that seems to be boring, the more boring I realize it is, since I more fully realize all aspects of its boring-ness.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Valkyrie: I know you said you have tried things. Were all the things you tried like meditation techniques only? Like sit down, close you eyes, imagine this or focus on that? Repeat this internally? Or to read a bunch of someone else's beliefs and then try to figure out how to believe that? Go on thought experiments and logically trying to decide if it makes sense to try to believe that party line?

I'm just curious if you have done anything that isn't sitting or thinking or imagining? Like Tai Chi or Yoga or martial arts or body work (massage, acupuncture, cranial sacral therapy).

Or maybe something more direct for getting you brain into a whole brain state - biofeed back? Entrainment audios?

It seems to me (I'm like this somewhat too) there is a lot of mental activity but not much body or heart focus in how you are approaching metaphysical pursuits. But I could be wrong that I'm only able to read the part of you that is thinking about all this.

I've done martial arts for 17 years now. When I was little my father signed me up for martial arts so that I could protect myself as I got older, and since then I've learned and become extremely proficient in a variety of styles.

I've learned mental exercises, but nothing about discerning metaphysical truth. For example, a key aspect of my style is that during a fight I must simultaneously consider both the present and the future. If one only thinks of the present, they may be good at striking or blocking, but poor at chaining combos together. If one only thinks of the future, then one might chain good combos together but each individual move will lack exceptional quality. By focusing on the present, but planning for the future simultaneously, one can chain good combos together while ensuring that each move is as flawless as possible.

Plus I've trained myself to change my emotional state nearly at will. Normally it's basically impossible to get me angry. When I go up against an opponent, I'm not angry at her (or him). But controlled rage can help in a very difficult fight, so I've trained myself to instantly experience rage when I choose to, while still retaining mental capacity to keep the techniques solid. Before a fight, I can take a second or two to close my eyes, focus, and instantly be full of rage and confidence. Or, I can perform it during a fight if I back off for a second and then focus with my eyes still open.

Most technique is mental.

[Alan1986]

It's said that one's body is the doorway to the great mystery.

[Michael Chui]

Out of curiosity, is Aikido one of the styles you're familiar with?

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Out of curiosity, is Aikido one of the styles you're familiar with?

No, I've never learn Aikido.

They call it presence, being one with your body.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

No, I've never learn Aikido.

They call it presence, being one with your body.

I wasn't asking you. I was asking Valkyrie.

[Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Out of curiosity, is Aikido one of the styles you're familiar with?

Aikido is one of the styles that I am somewhat familiar with, but it's not one of my primary styles.

Ai=blending, ki= inner energy, do= way. The way of blending with inner energy.

I mostly use aikido in conjunction with harder styles (aikido is a soft style). Aikido is great because their moves do not require much strength, as you use your opponents force against her or him. This is good for someone like me (an average height female), as I can be able to land throws and disarming moves on larger men.

Some of the individual aikido throws are useful, and I use them occasionally, but more importantly are the mental aspects and small movements that I incorporate into other styles. With aikido, you have to be fearless, because instead of blocking attacks, escaping attacks, or backing off, you have to confront the attack full-on, presently, consciously, and redirect what they are doing with small movements.

Aikido also allows you to win a fight without inflicting serious injury, which is a part of the philosophical/religious aspects of the style.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

Aikido also allows you to win a fight without inflicting serious injury, which is a part of the philosophical/religious aspects of the style.

Would I be right in assuming you've read the Ueshiba's Art of Peace, then?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

I don't know how to change personality types. Plus I like some aspects of the thinking personality. If there is any objective truth at all in metaphysics, shouldn't it be reasonably accessible to both thinkers and feelers? But I mean back to the changing of types, I don't know how I could become more of a feeler than I currently am. I'm not actively repressing my feeling half, in fact according to tests its slightly dominant. All thinking would be boring, and I enjoy the rush of feelings.

In my own case, I think I started out as INFP and switched to Thinking due to environmental influences and messages I received. Eventually I mastered that and chose to shift back to my natural preference. But while I was working from the Thinking function I tested that way. It's not like I can't do logic, it is just not fulfilling for me. And sometimes the explanation is, "intuition says so, and by now I know to trust my intuition." Which is not satisfying to some, and that's fine with me.

Not sure I ever met an INFJ. Cool. Actually, recently I was thinking about that exact combination, how it seemed less common among those I had met, and how it seemed almost innately contradictory to me or like it might create some tension (between F and J).. and then poof, there you are

Oh one more thing that I think could help... I think you could have yourself trained a bit too well to explore these things the way you want to. Well, for some approaches your training would help, but it does not seem like it is naturally supporting the shape you would like your metaphysical experience to take.

So, aside from the playfulness and curiosity, I would highly recommend spontaneity. Whether it is a thought or a feeling that comes up, explore it, act, be in the flow and in the instant moment-to-moment way of being and living your daily life. Be a bit absurd, perhaps. Put your elbow in the seat of a chair, wear your clothes backwards in your house, do what you feel moved to do in that moment instead of initiating the pathways and patterns you developed in your training. At least consider committing to doing this when you are not at work Clock out to spontaneity and it may lead to the sort of flexibility and openness that could support your stated goal.

[Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Would I be right in assuming you've read the Ueshiba's Art of Peace, then?

Yes I've read it. It's been a while, though.

It's a short series of quotes, beginning with statements about metaphysics, mostly stuff that would fit very well on this forum- oneness, divine in everything, nature, etc. Then it touches on technique in a general way, explaining basic principles of the style, and then ends with sort of encouragement and metaphysics again.

Originally Posted by rei

In my own case, I think I started out as INFP and switched to Thinking due to environmental influences and messages I received. Eventually I mastered that and chose to shift back to my natural preference. But while I was working from the Thinking function I tested that way. It's not like I can't do logic, it is just not fulfilling for me. And sometimes the explanation is, "intuition says so, and by now I know to trust my intuition." Which is not satisfying to some, and that's fine with me.

Not sure I ever met an INFJ. Cool. Actually, recently I was thinking about that exact combination, how it seemed less common among those I had met, and how it seemed almost innately contradictory to me or like it might create some tension (between F and J).. and then poof, there you are

INFJ is the rarest type.

Judging is sometimes misunderstood as a negative thing. It doesn't mean people are "judgmental" as the term is usually understood. It means J's like to have things settled.

Oh one more thing that I think could help... I think you could have yourself trained a bit too well to explore these things the way you want to. Well, for some approaches your training would help, but it does not seem like it is naturally supporting the shape you would like your metaphysical experience to take.

So, aside from the playfulness and curiosity, I would highly recommend spontaneity. Whether it is a thought or a feeling that comes up, explore it, act, be in the flow and in the instant moment-to-moment way of being and living your daily life. Be a bit absurd, perhaps. Put your elbow in the seat of a chair, wear your clothes backwards in your house, do what you feel moved to do in that moment instead of initiating the pathways and patterns you developed in your training. At least consider committing to doing this when you are not at work Clock out to spontaneity and it may lead to the sort of flexibility and openness that could support your stated goal.

I'll pay more attention to doing that stuff to see if it helps.

I'm spontaneous sometimes. I sing sometimes when I'm alone, and when people walk in on me it's awkward. And I don't always leave it out of work. I don't like to sit for 8 hours, so I take short breaks where I find some empty area or go outside and stretch. Sometimes I do high kicks for a little boost, but it depends what I'm wearing that day.

I guess one thing that can be a little off-putting is that each person has a different and contradictory thing. I'm told I don't have enough practice or knowledge when it comes to spirituality/metaphysics, or whatever. If I explain what I've read and practiced, I'm told that perhaps I practiced or studied too much. Lose/lose.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

Judging is sometimes misunderstood as a negative thing. It doesn't mean people are "judgmental" as the term is usually understood. It means J's like to have things settled.

Oh, I understand what the Judging preference is about. I've done a lot of research into the MBTI typology. To me, though, the Feeling preference is rather mercurial, or it can be. The intensity of a particular feeling response to the world/environment/situation at least can oscillate a bit. Seems like that might get in the way of wanting things set, to be working from a way of processing information that is not always perfectly consistent.

Originally Posted by Valkyrie

I guess one thing that can be a little off-putting is that each person has a different and contradictory thing. I'm told I don't have enough practice or knowledge when it comes to spirituality/metaphysics, or whatever. If I explain what I've read and practiced, I'm told that perhaps I practiced or studied too much. Lose/lose.

Well, I happen to think equifinality applies to metaphysics. All roads lead to Rome. Our individuality will shape the way we talk about, reflect on, integrate our experience, which means we may not all sound the same talking about it.

Rather than look at what you can add to invite these things, you might consider looking at what you can set aside. Even the things I've mentioned recently, playfulness, curiosity, spontaneity - these are about setting aside the grown-up, formulaic/steady mentality. Less about adding and more about setting aside the adult you. I've seen folks speak of the right hemisphere as child mind. I imagine even if you became serious as a child (if that's even true) there was a playful person living your life prior to that. So, my point is, if adding to your way of being seems to frustrate, you may look at what you can set aside instead - as some of the things you would set aside could be barriers to the desired experience.

[FreeSpirit11]

Valkyrie...

I have in my experience found...that whatever it is a person asks; "it shall be answered". Nothing ever goes unanswered.

The fact that you even ask the question means that you are at that point of your development. Now all you have to do is remain receptive and wait.

Nobody can give you the answers you seek. Because it's different for everyone.

But when it comes you will know. "And the truth shall set you free".