Why is your religion/spiritual belief correct?

[Narz]

I am always amazed at how adamantly people cling to their religious/spiritual beliefs. One of the most interesting (mostly among religious, less among non-religious "spiritual" people who cop-out with the "everyone's belief is right" stuff, including those who think they have a "right" to hurt others I wonder) is people's claim that their belief is right and they are sure of this.

It's amusing considering that had they been born and raised in a different country and/or exposed to different beliefs during their lives they would believe completely differently (and probably equally adamantly).

I like to think that wherever I grew up I would have the mental acuity, clarity of mind and resistance to social pressure to be an atheist. Of course I can't be sure.

So, if you think you've got it right about all this spiritual stuff, tell me why.

Cheers,
Narz

[Yev]

To quote from "God's Debris" by Scott Adams (the Dilbert author)

"At some level of consciousness, everyone knows that the odds of picking the true religion - if such a thing exists - are nil"

[RT Wolf]

Narz, I don't believe in this stuff, and am an ardent athiest, however the attitude with which you made that post is really quite aggressive. It comes across as not asking to find out other people's opinions in an open and honest way, but first saying "This is what I believe about your beliefs. Now try to tell me different."

It seems to me that you're not looking for answers or opinions, you're looking for a fight.

Disregarding that, here is some stuff that Pavlina's written abuot beliefs. I'd imagine he applies the same criteria for choosing spiritual beliefs. This seems to be the best way I can think of to consciously choose beliefs.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ering-beliefs/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ctive-beliefs/

[John Wesley]

I don't believe in any formal religion, but also don't consider myself an atheist or an agnostic.

I'm certain there is something more to the universe than what we can perceive with our senses. To explain this feeling people created religion. You can either subscribe to religion, so you can have a concrete set of beliefs, or you can accept that you'll never really understand everything.

It's much to accept the you don't know, and never will know, the truth about the universe. Hence, the popularity of religion.

[Narz]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Narz, I don't believe in this stuff, and am an ardent athiest, however the attitude with which you made that post is really quite aggressive. It comes across as not asking to find out other people's opinions in an open and honest way, but first saying "This is what I believe about your beliefs. Now try to tell me different."

It seems to me that you're not looking for answers or opinions, you're looking for a fight.

It seems to me that people who tell me I'm looking for a fight are looking for a fight.

Maybe it came off a bit aggressive, not intentional. Religious people just sadden and frustrate me, that's all. Like this one dude who I was trying to help the other day, he claimed he couldn't get a girlfriend and didn't know why. After some probing I realized he held a belief that oral sex was sinful (because of some bible passage about spilling seed). I found a few more strange but religiously based beliefs also and the picture as to why he couldn't get girls was becoming more clear.

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Disregarding that, here is some stuff that Pavlina's written abuot beliefs. I'd imagine he applies the same criteria for choosing spiritual beliefs. This seems to be the best way I can think of to consciously choose beliefs.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ering-beliefs/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ctive-beliefs/

I like the second one. Some people really do want to be left alone though (by most people most of the time).

[Toine]

Do you really think that this one dude you are referring to doesn’t have a girlfriend because of his religious beliefs? Perhaps it is hard to imagine, but I bet there are plenty girls out there with the same or similar beliefs as him and completely disagree with you.

Doesn’t everyone cling to their beliefs whether they are religious or not?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Narz

So, if you think you've got it right about all this spiritual stuff, tell me why.

What I think I got right is that there is a way to believe that really all religions are trying to talk about the same thing. There isn't a right and wrong religion - there are differences in interperiting the religion's scriptures and "using" ideas from religions to gain personal advantages or control over other people, perhaps.

I recently found Gary Beckwith audio that talked about it this way. He wrote a book (that I've ben tempted to buy but haven't) called "The Message That Comes From Everywhere". The audio I found was at universeofpower .com Hope it's ok to post urls like this.

[jacmac1]

What I think I got right is that there is a way to believe that really all religions are trying to talk about the same thing. There isn't a right and wrong religion

I think religion is man-made, and causes discourse and separation. But I am very spiritual and I find truths in all schools of thought. I'm not offended by other people's beliefs, and if their really closed-minded about it (I'm right- you're damned) I just let them have their say. It's nothing to do with me, anyway.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by jacmac1

I think religion is man-made, and causes discourse and separation. But I am very spiritual and I find truths in all schools of thought. I'm not offended by other people's beliefs, and if their really closed-minded about it (I'm right- you're damned) I just let them have their say. It's nothing to do with me, anyway.

Spirituality + hierarchy = religion

I prefer just the spirituality part.

[celeste]

I believe in God.

Not only in that he exists, but that we can have a personal relationship with him. He's all I need. Believe what you want, but this is what I believe in. I could go more in-depth, because there really is so much more, but I don't want to get into another dispute with someone about their beliefs.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by celeste

I believe in God.

Not only in that he exists, but that we can have a personal relationship with him. He's all I need. Believe what you want, but this is what I believe in. I could go more in-depth, because there really is so much more, but I don't want to get into another dispute with someone about their beliefs.

I'm just curious what makes God a he for you? Or is that just the laguage you use, since, would you agree that to describe God is kind of impossible in words?

[songwriter]

"There are 5000 religions in the world, and they all claim to be the only one that's true. So at least, 4999 are wrong..."

Anyway, I don't think anything in this world is "right". We don't work with ones and zeros. All is partially right/true...

[JHL]

Originally Posted by Narz

Religious people just sadden and frustrate me, that's all.

In the context of psychological projection, I think exploring why religious people make you feel this way, might be rich PD territory for you.

They trigger something for you. If they didnt, I dont think you would feel any compulsion to start a discussion like this.

If you think I'm wrong, I dont mind you telling me so. After all, I cant help but see my own projection in your words either

[Lallymac]

Why does one belief have to right and another wrong? There is a common truth that resonantes within every theory or belief. This life is a voyage of discovery. Rather judging one right and another wrong, why not seek the truth that resonates with you. We learn and grow in multiple different ways. Rather than seeking difference, why not seek commonality? We are all flesh and blood. Cut us all, we bleed but our hearts beat as one.
Lallymac

Lallymac

[Lallymac]

Right, wrong purpetuates separation. What if the arm decided that the legs were wrong or the brain decided it didn't need the heart? We are all one.
Lallymac

[jacmac1]

Right, wrong purpetuates separation. What if the arm decided that the legs were wrong or the brain decided it didn't need the heart? We are all one.
Lallymac

Why does one belief have to right and another wrong? There is a common truth that resonantes within every theory or belief. This life is a voyage of discovery. Rather judging one right and another wrong, why not seek the truth that resonates with you. We learn and grow in multiple different ways. Rather than seeking difference, why not seek commonality? We are all flesh and blood. Cut us all, we bleed but our hearts beat as one.
Lallymac

Wise words Lallymac - thank you!

[dor]

Originally Posted by Narz

Maybe it came off a bit aggressive, not intentional. Religious people just sadden and frustrate me, that's all.

what do you mean by 'religious people' ? Here's a 'religious person' for you
John Polkinghorne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Official John Polkinghorne Website
John Polkinghorne is one of the greatest living writers and thinkers on science and religion: a truly world-class scientist turned priest, currently one of two Revd FRS (the other is the statistician Bernard Silverman) and one of only 3 Revd KBEs.

I find your sweeping judgments as narrow minded and hypocritical as you claim 'religious people' are.

It's amusing considering that had they been born and raised in a different country and/or exposed to different beliefs during their lives they would believe completely differently (and probably equally adamantly).

I like to think that wherever I grew up I would have the mental acuity, clarity of mind and resistance to social pressure to be an atheist. Of course I can't be sure.

ah yes, the classic sophomore.


In one part of the world someone invented the wheel. in other parts, there was no wheel. One can argue that societies with wheels did much better than societies without them, and the idea spread.

in part of the world democracies formed, in other parts of the world it did not exist, the idea spread because it was considered a better form of government. Is democracy right or wrong or just a better, but not perfectly developed form of government. the same can be said about religion/s.
So if you grew up in say, zimbawae, you would not be might grow up thinking that dictatorships are best (especially if it benefited you) and not be exposed to democratic ideas, but according to your moral reliativism there's no right or wrong or better or worse?

let me ask you this, do you think that religions are all equal? To use an extreme example is Thugee (the murder cult that existed in india what worshipped Kali) or other forms of religion that involved human sacrofice morally equal to say, pacifist Amish and Quakers.

lets see if you can bring your open minded self to let these words out of your mouth: the religion of the amish is morally superior to thugee.

if you're born after say, 1980 I sincerely doubt you are able to say this with conviction.

[Yev]

I am curious as to why you would compare religions involving human sacrifice with the religion of the Amish and Quakers. I thought that the Amish and Quakers were variants of Christianity. I also understood that in Christianity Jesus died a human death as the ultimate sacrifice, so I would have considered the Amish and Quakers as being amongst the religions in which the God is appeased by human sacrifice.

I am no expert on Christianity, so maybe I have got it wrong. But if Jesus died a divine death then God is dead and the whole question of religion would fall away. If he did indeed die a human death, what makes the Amish and Quakers different?

[celeste]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I'm just curious what makes God a he for you? Or is that just the laguage you use, since, would you agree that to describe God is kind of impossible in words?

It is true; there are no words to describe God. He is obviously not a man or woman; he's a spirit. It's just the language that people use to describe him.

[Shaden]

It is true; there are no words to describe God. He is obviously not a man or woman; he's a spirit. It's just the language that people use to describe him.

*blinks*

Any particular reason why?

[celeste]

Originally Posted by Shaden

*blinks*

Any particular reason why?

Why not, may I ask?

[Narz]

Originally Posted by JHL

In the context of psychological projection, I think exploring why religious people make you feel this way, might be rich PD territory for you.

They trigger something for you. If they didnt, I dont think you would feel any compulsion to start a discussion like this.

If you think I'm wrong, I dont mind you telling me so. After all, I cant help but see my own projection in your words either

What is PD territory?

Obviously there is a reason I feel the way they do. Most likely because I was subject to abuse by superstitious and religious people and organizations as a youth (no, I was molested by a priest, praise Allah!).

I see critical thought as our one defense against stupidity, mob-rule, witch burning, mental laziness, collapse, etc. The environment is being destroyed by people who believe that God will save them from their ways. Who have a skewed view of right & wrong (it's ok to destroy the environment and kill innocent civilians for oil but not ok to have sex with the same sex).

I also believe that a world in which most world leaders were atheists would be a MUCH happier and more peaceful place.

Imagine people examining belief systems with no moral-imperatives, no delegating responsibility to a "higher power", no claiming righteousness or "evil" based on any terms but scientific, humanitarian worldly ones?

I can't think of anything much more beautiful than that!

Originally Posted by Lallymac

Why does one belief have to right and another wrong? There is a common truth that resonantes within every theory or belief. This life is a voyage of discovery. Rather judging one right and another wrong, why not seek the truth that resonates with you. We learn and grow in multiple different ways. Rather than seeking difference, why not seek commonality? We are all flesh and blood. Cut us all, we bleed but our hearts beat as one.

Lallymac

It's important to know the truth, IMO. It's also important (for me personally) to not claim "truth" unless you can prove a claim is true. Advertisers must obey this rule, IMO, we all should.

Originally Posted by dor

what do you mean by 'religious people' ?

People who impose their beliefs on others and judge them by religious standards rather than their own. People who take their precious "free will" (right to choose) and don't use it, preferring instead an already canned belief system. By the way, I include hardcore atheists, Ayn Rand followers, fundy Republicans and Democrats all in this catagory, basically anyone who doesn't utilize the divine () gift of critical thought.

Originally Posted by dor

I find your sweeping judgments as narrow minded and hypocritical as you claim 'religious people' are.

Which "judgments"? I just said I found it amusing that people don't consider the possibility that if they'd lived in a different time and place they'd believe different things.

Originally Posted by dor

ah yes, the classic sophomore.

Eh?

Originally Posted by dor

In one part of the world someone invented the wheel. in other parts, there was no wheel. One can argue that societies with wheels did much better than societies without them, and the idea spread.

Just because a cultural trait is passed on doesn't mean it is superior. Slavery was an idea that spread quickly across the globe as well.

Originally Posted by dor

in part of the world democracies formed, in other parts of the world it did not exist, the idea spread because it was considered a better form of government. Is democracy right or wrong or just a better, but not perfectly developed form of government. the same can be said about religion/s.

Religion, I imagine is going the way of the dodo bird. As people become better educated religion tends to have less power. An example of this was the Renaissance in Europe.

Originally Posted by dor

So if you grew up in say, zimbawae, you would not be might grow up thinking that dictatorships are best (especially if it benefited you) and not be exposed to democratic ideas, but according to your moral reliativism there's no right or wrong or better or worse?

I didn't say I believed in moral relativism.

Originally Posted by dor

let me ask you this, do you think that religions are all equal?

Nope.

Originally Posted by dor

To use an extreme example is Thugee (the murder cult that existed in india what worshipped Kali) or other forms of religion that involved human sacrofice morally equal to say, pacifist Amish and Quakers.

lets see if you can bring your open minded self to let these words out of your mouth: the religion of the amish is morally superior to thugee.

The religion of the Amish is morally superior to Thugee.

Originally Posted by dor

if you're born after say, 1980 I sincerely doubt you are able to say this with conviction.

What were you saying about "sweeping judgments" and being "narrow minded" and "hypocritical"?

For your information Jack I was born in 1979 (which you could have found out by clicking on my profile), not that it should fu¢king matter.

[dor]

Originally Posted by Narz

Religion, I imagine is going the way of the dodo bird. As people become better educated religion tends to have less power. An example of this was the Renaissance in Europe..

Just blew right by that physicist-minister didn't you?

Another 'humanist' twisting reality to fit his pet theories. Open a history book. The Renaissance was followed by a resurgence in religious belief, known as the protestant reformation.

resurgence in religion led to freedom foundations of the US and UK -since mans right were God, not King given, the king could not impede them (please see John Locke).

Those 'more religious' countries actually soared past the less religious catholic ones - intellectually, scientifically (the scientific method has its roots in Christianity, Kepler and newton, for example were seeking god's order ) - in which the church had been corrupted.

Oh, i do have two examples of enlightened rational beings rejecting religion 1789 France (known as the Reign of Terror) and the various Communists regimes that left 120 + million people dead.

I called you a sophomore because, well, look up the meaning. You make , sweeping statements - and baseless assertions about religion going the way of the dodo bird....under the guise of being rational , but it's really just a thin veneer for your own irrational hatred and excuse to feel 'superior' to those ignorant 'religious peoplel' sounds like you just picked up Richard Dawkins latest 'masterpiece' .

as for it "fu¢king" mattering, yes it does, if you're a product of any US school system, - for example 'kids' graduating today have had 10+ years of diversity /sensitivity indoctrination, which makes them very different fish, on average than those who went to school pre-PC.
and yes you are making sweeping judgments, where my statement was a reflection in sweeping changes in the US educational system with the asendence of the sixties (hippie/baby boomer generation) into positions of power, particularly in educational fields - which has directly effected education.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by dor

Just blew right by that physicist-minister didn't you?

Another 'humanist' twisting reality to fit his pet theories. Open a history book. The Renaissance was followed by a resurgence in religious belief, known as the protestant reformation.

resurgence in religion led to freedom foundations of the US and UK -since mans right were God, not King given, the king could not impede them (please see John Locke).

Those 'more religious' countries actually soared past the less religious catholic ones - intellectually, scientifically (the scientific method has its roots in Christianity, Kepler and newton, for example were seeking god's order ) - in which the church had been corrupted.

Oh, i do have two examples of enlightened rational beings rejecting religion 1789 France (known as the Reign of Terror) and the various Communists regimes that left 120 + million people dead.

I called you a sophomore because, well, look up the meaning. You make , sweeping statements - and baseless assertions about religion going the way of the dodo bird....under the guise of being rational , but it's really just a thin veneer for your own irrational hatred and excuse to feel 'superior' to those ignorant 'religious peoplel' sounds like you just picked up Richard Dawkins latest 'masterpiece' .

as for it "fu¢king" mattering, yes it does, if you're a product of any US school system, - for example 'kids' graduating today have had 10+ years of diversity /sensitivity indoctrination, which makes them very different fish, on average than those who went to school pre-PC.
and yes you are making sweeping judgments, where my statement was a reflection in sweeping changes in the US educational system with the asendence of the sixties (hippie/baby boomer generation) into positions of power, particularly in educational fields - which has directly effected education.

Hey, you forgot to debunk evolution too.

Seriously, there are so many incorrect claims in your post that one doesn't where to begin in correcting you.

The lesson here is not to rely on bible class for your education about the real world.

[dor]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

Hey, you forgot to debunk evolution too.

Seriously, there are so many incorrect claims in your post that one doesn't where to begin in correcting you.

The lesson here is not to rely on bible class for your education about the real world.

Fire away. The lesson here is not make idiotic assumptions about where I am getting my information.
Let's see there was no protestant reformation?
John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government doesn't argue that rights are God, not King given?
Let see communists weren't atheistic? There was no reign of terror? Please, enlighten us, sage.
Oh gee, I am arguing against an branding all religious people as stupid, so therefore I must be a creationist.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by dor

Fire away. The lesson here is not make idiotic assumptions about where I am getting my information.
Let's see there was no protestant reformation?
John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government doesn't argue that rights are God, not King given?
Let see communists weren't atheistic? There was no reign of terror? Please, enlighten us, sage.

I was reminded yesterday in an interaction with another godbot that I would have better results arguing with the radio.

I really don't care what nonsense you believe, I just wish you'd stop tryng to cram it down everyone else's throat.

That's why fundies are called Talibangelists.

[dor]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

I was reminded yesterday in an interaction with another godbot that I would have better results arguing with the radio.

I really don't care what nonsense you believe, I just wish you'd stop tryng to cram it down everyone else's throat. That's what the Taliban do.

Oh yeah that was rational.
Go ahead, refute my statements you said it was easy, apparently not as easy as calling names.

Please, refute;
locke argued, in his second treatise on civil government that there was not a divine right of kings, but rather rights were God given. (you know OF COURSE that jefferson lifted the line "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights"... from Locke, don't you (changing pursuit of property to pursuit of happiness)

The French Revolution wasn't anti-religous? And wasn't known at least from 1789-to about '93 as the Reign of Terror? The communists didn't murder clergy (probably with your tacit approval) and destroy thousand year old churches?

Oh and Kepler wasn't seeking God's divine order when he was trying to figure out planetary motion? Nor Newton?

oh i know its easier to say i am some fundamentalist creationist . yeah you're rational
...once again proving that atheists and fundamentalist taliban types aretwo sides of the same coin.

For your uninformed, narrow minded information: I am episcopalian, brought up in a secular urban (as in the most cosomopolitian city in the US) household, and oh never mind it's easier to keep your petty little view of 'the bad guys'

how does the physicists minister posted above fit into your narrow little view of people?

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

I just wish you'd stop tryng to cram it down everyone else's throat. That's what the Taliban do.

I invite you to find an instance where I have tried to do this. This is what i find so amusing about the anti-religious 'dawkins' type atheists - the notion you hold of me is as fanciful as flying pig, or, if you choose, Adam and Eve. Dawkins holds beliefs which in many ways are more irrational and inaccurate than creationism (which I don't subscribe to, for your uninformed information) as do people like you so blinded by hatred or preconceived views, or a self identity as 'rational' . I can respect and understand most agnostics, I have rarely met rational atheists. (two exceptions)

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by dor

Oh yeah that was rational.
Go ahead, refute my statements you said it was easy, apparently not as easy as calling names.

Please, refute;
locke argued, in his second treatise on civil government that there was not a divine right of kings, but rather rights were God given. (you know OF COURSE that jefferson lifted the line "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights"...

oh i know its easier to say i am some fundamentalist creationist . yeah you're rational
...once again proving that atheists and fundamentalist taliban types aretwo sides of the same coin.

For your uninformed, narrow minded information: I am episcopalian, brought up in a secular urban (as in the most cosomopolitian city in the US) household, and oh never mind it's easier to keep your petty little view of 'the bad guys'

how does the physicists minister posted above fit into your narrow little view of people?

For the benefit of others, those more interested in facts than in dogma, most of history has been a steady moving away from superstition towards science. Look up "god of the gaps" to understand the radical shift that has taken place in mankind's evolution over the past 2000 years. Long ago, any occurrence was directly attributed to god. Your goat died? God killed it because he was angry at something you did. A deer accidently bumped into your hunting party? It's a sign that god is pleased with you. Overtime we came to see that there are simple scientific explanations for most of life. Occam's razor. You don't need imaginary critters to explain most things.

As far as someone with an agenda to push cherry-picking one historical figure who is in agreement with him, whoop-dee-doo. It proves nothing.

[dor]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

Occam's razor. You don't need imaginary critters to explain most things.

As far as someone with an agenda to push cherry-picking one historical figure who is in agreement with him, whoop-dee-doo. It proves nothing.

Ahh okay so you respond to me with your own manifesto-theology - you claimed my post was so ....well let me quote you:

Seriously, there are so many incorrect claims in your post that one doesn't where to begin in correcting you.

I invite you to refute them. You claimed you dont know where to begin - apparently that much is true. So now you claim i have 'cherry picked' historical events then you come back to me, interestingly enough, with your idealogical statement for those interested in 'facts, not dogma' - ....well son, the Protestant reformation is, forgive me for saying, an awfully big 'cherry'.

so four or so posts of calling me names, inaccuratley describing my beliefs, and spouting 'theology-idealogy' but not one point I made refuted. Not exactly a beacon of reason, lad.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by dor

Ahh okay so you respond to me with your own manifesto-theology - you claimed my post was so ....well let me quote you:

Seriously, there are so many incorrect claims in your post that one doesn't where to begin in correcting you.

I invite you to refute them. You claimed you dont know where to begin - apparently that much is true. So now you claim i have 'cherry picked' historical events then you come back to me, interestingly enough with your idealogical statement for those interested in 'facts, not dogma' - ....well son, the Protestant reformation is, forgive me for saying, an awfully big 'cherry'.

so four or so posts of calling me names, inaccuratley describing my beliefs, and spouting 'theology-idealogy' but not one point I made refuted. Not exactly a beacon of reason.

Here's one biggie: the best countries to live in these days are also the most secular. There was even a story about this in the media recently. Look at Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, and you will see basically secular countries. ( I can personally vouch for this having lived and travelled aboard for about 2 decades of my life.)

I'll take it one step further: take a look at the best parts of the USA to live in, such as both coasts and the larger cities in the flyover states, and what do you see? Secular societies.

Sorry to break it to you, but Pat Robertson is feeding you a load of BS.

Anyways, carry on. I have better uses for my time here than wasting it on people interested in forcing everyone to comply with their narrow religious beliefs.