Would life on earth be better off w/out the notions of "evil" and/or the "Devil"?

[fishbelowtheice]

Would life on earth be better off without out the notions of "evil" and/or the "Devil"?

[rei]

focusing on notions of love... evidence of love... makes life very fulfilling. being love (not necessarily romantic, love is bigger than that) even more so.

life on earth from the lens of love is great already

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

Would life on earth be better off without out the notions of "evil" and/or the "Devil"?

I don't think human behaviour would change. We would have to get rid of all notions of right and wrong, good and bad, god and devil before life on earth can become better.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I don't think human behaviour would change. We would have to get rid of all notions of right and wrong, good and bad, god and devil before life on earth can become better.

I am all for the eradication of the idea of "morality". I can think of no more a harmful or destructive idea than that "morality".

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

I am all for the eradication of the idea of "morality". I can think of no more a harmful or destructive idea than that "morality".

Couldn't agree more. All notions of morality dissappear when walking in the anothers' shoes and a deeper understanding is developed. Huh? How does that sound? Bloody hell, it still sounds moralistic. On further thought I believe it's enough to walk in our own shoes and a have a deep understanding of ourselves.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Here's what I believe. Nothing is good or bad. It just is. You can label things good and bad, but that is only from your viewpoint and maybe the viewpoints of others, but who are you to make judgments about good and bad? I would look more into constructive and destructive behaviors. But then again, destructive behaviors can be good at some times. (e.g. the destruction of morality, small-minded belief systems). That is, of course, only if we contruct something in the place of these destructive behaviors.

Evil and the Devil are just other words for fear and control. Fear is a destructive emotion. It shrinks perspective. It limits us as human beings. It is used for sinister purposes in the media. And it perpetuates itself. If we would have stayed as hunter/gatherers, we would never have even needed to worry about evil or the Devil because there would be no need for religion or schools of thought that are used to control the masses because a central heirarchy couldn't control everyone.

We made all of this up. It's like swearing on the Bible in court to tell the truth. It doesn't really mean anything. It's just something we created to make sense of our world and in reality it is something that we use to control thought and people. So this whole idea of morality is nothing more than a social tool of control. Don't let it control your life. (But don't go wild here and destroy the world )

[aggie]

well, you could get rid of the notion or the idea...but would that mean that there was no evil or no devil? imo, i think not...regardless of what you want to call it...there's some crappiness out there...and just because you don't put a label on it or refuse to address it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you still have to deal.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by aggie

well, you could get rid of the notion or the idea...but would that mean that there was no evil or no devil? imo, i think not...regardless of what you want to call it...there's some crappiness out there...and just because you don't put a label on it or refuse to address it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you still have to deal.

Actually, the crappiness only exists as a notion or idea.

All that is is is. We made up good and bad. No idea why.

/<3

[aggie]

well, maybe some people use that notion of crappiness to their advantage more than others...and the rest of us take it too seriously

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Karanime

Actually, the crappiness only exists as a notion or idea.

All that is is is. We made up good and bad. No idea why.

/<3

well put Karanime

[Mounds]

I am pro-morality. I believe that there should be a distinction between right and wrong. And frankly, I don't see the limitations that good/evil bring on.
Many species of social animal have distincitons between accepted behavior and non-accepted behavior. Look at dogs... in a dog pack, if one dog doesn't get the hint that biting is not accepted, eventually he's going to get kicked out.
Yesterday, I had a woman come into work with a swollen face and a broken nose. The day before, her cousin had beaten her for no apparent reason. That's what a culture that does not recognize right and wrong gets you.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I am pro-morality. I believe that there should be a distinction between right and wrong. And frankly, I don't see the limitations that good/evil bring on.
Many species of social animal have distincitons between accepted behavior and non-accepted behavior. Look at dogs... in a dog pack, if one dog doesn't get the hint that biting is not accepted, eventually he's going to get kicked out.
Yesterday, I had a woman come into work with a swollen face and a broken nose. The day before, her cousin had beaten her for no apparent reason. That's what a culture that does not recognize right and wrong gets you.

How do you get two people to agree on what is "right" and what is "wrong"? Who enforces this? So called "suicide bombers" are enforcing what they (or the persons who recruited them's) view as "right" and what is "wrong" and many people think they are "right".

Is a world where people strap on explosive to sneak up to each other and detonate to kill each other, to enforce their version of morality and right and wrong on each other a world I want to promote? Not really.

The current world we have is based on a morality based system IMO.

[aggie]

i am with you mounds...even if we made up good and evil...even if it is merely a notion...either of the two is a concept that is embraced and used for one's betterment or advantage...and that sometimes feels like more than a notion to some people (ie the person with the swollen face and broken nose!)

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by aggie

i am with you mounds...even if we made up good and evil...even if it is merely a notion...either of the two is a concept that is embraced and used for one's betterment or advantage...and that sometimes feels like more than a notion to some people (ie the person with the swollen face and broken nose!)

this point of view promotes a 'survival of the fittest world'. the biggest noisiest gorilla will decide what is right and what is wrong

We also end up, wound up with with a world of people hiding and lying about what they percieve as wrong to protect themselves and we all do not get any closer to workability for all people but further away from it.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Here's what I believe. Nothing is good or bad. It just is. You can label things good and bad, but that is only from your viewpoint and maybe the viewpoints of others, but who are you to make judgments about good and bad? I would look more into constructive and destructive behaviors. But then again, destructive behaviors can be good at some times. (e.g. the destruction of morality, small-minded belief systems). That is, of course, only if we contruct something in the place of these destructive behaviors.

Evil and the Devil are just other words for fear and control. Fear is a destructive emotion. It shrinks perspective. It limits us as human beings. It is used for sinister purposes in the media. And it perpetuates itself. If we would have stayed as hunter/gatherers, we would never have even needed to worry about evil or the Devil because there would be no need for religion or schools of thought that are used to control the masses because a central heirarchy couldn't control everyone.

We made all of this up. It's like swearing on the Bible in court to tell the truth. It doesn't really mean anything. It's just something we created to make sense of our world and in reality it is something that we use to control thought and people. So this whole idea of morality is nothing more than a social tool of control. Don't let it control your life. (But don't go wild here and destroy the world )

brilliant

[aggie]

no agrument...but everyone has been so caught up with projecting and protecting their view of morality for centuries...with a lot of pillaging, plundering, raping, maiming and killing along the way.

so, personally, i can take it to the point in assuming people did not get the message when Christ died on the cross...again my opinion and belief....

so what do we all do now...do we turn the other cheek, do we martyr ourselves, do we try to get people to chat about all this nonsense, do we hope the "fittest" cannot take over and the meek shall inherit, do we have a right to assume some responsibility of basic concepts of "right" in the sense that it should not cause harm to another living being so we have a starting point...do we go back to make peace not war, love the one you're with sit-ins?....i would like to think the powers of positivity and love could do it...i sometimes wonder as we make the physical earth more ill along the way...do we need to have a point of completely starting over from scratch to make it work?

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by aggie

...do we need to have a point of completely starting over from scratch to make it work?

interrupting the drift of the discourse "morality" or "right and wrong" is a start. the status quo will kick back but that is where I would start.

I would suggest a few new compasses: "integriity" and "workability" and "appropriateness"

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

this point of view promotes a 'survival of the fittest world'. the biggest noisiest gorilla will decide what is right and what is wrong

Do you honestly believe that the world would be better off without morality? Just have a look at people who really do not understand the difference between right and wrong. In those societies (some reserves, gangs), it really does become survival of the fittest. Better learn to fight because sooner or later someone is going to try to break into your house. Better be strong or you'll constantly get your ass kicked. It's no wonder these people can't seem to get ahead in life. They're constantly trying to protect themselves from each other. Then if we try to show the difference between right and wrong, people start feeling mancipated?!?
The dystopian society that were afraid of is one where there is no morality. There is nothing wrong with murdering your neighbour. There is nothing wrong with taking what's not yours. There is nothing wrong with rape.

[aggie]

i think that is a great start...but playing devil's advocate here...how do you get masses to encompass those new compasses...well, now that i think of it, any major shift like that will take time and sacrifice...then it would have to spread and appeal to someone influential enough to explain and try to rewire someone who thinks blowing themselves up is appropriate.

this is to me, on a level of revolutionary proportions...i know there are many...but it makes me think Christ, Ghandi, King...do you think it would be a true blood and guts thing...or are we civilized enough to make a smoother transition?

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Do you honestly believe that the world would be better off without morality? Just have a look at people who really do not understand the difference between right and wrong.

Mounds, you seem to be talking about your own personal version of "right and wrong". I believe that the people you are mentioning do certainly have their own code of "right and wrong" and feel totally justified in their actions.

Now, we are talking generalities and hypatheticals so I have no statistics to back up what I am saying.

[fishbelowtheice]

[QUOTE=aggie;544975]...how do you get masses to encompass those new compasses...QUOTE]

for sure I have no******* clue aggie
it is 7 - 10 billion people we are talking about ........I hope you come up with something that contributes and share it with us.

one of the point of views I am operating under is, by you and I exercising leadership and starting new conversations in our communities and making the success of all of humanity our own personal business.

[fishbelowtheice]

[QUOTE=aggie;544975]this is to me, on a level of revolutionary proportions...QUOTE]

word

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

Would life on earth be better off without out the notions of "evil" and/or the "Devil"?

This got longer than I had planned so I scrolled back up and inserted my apology/ warning fore those who don't feel like reading another long post.


I have to say that I don't consider evil, or good to be "notions". IMO, evil most definitely exists regardless of how many would tend to define the term relative to something else. I'm talking about moral relativism, and I do believe that moral absolutes do exist.

If they don't exist and there is really no such things as good and evil; then we should just do away with that minor annoyance we call "rule of law".

There are certain behaviors that are almost universally accepted by the overwhelming majority of human beings as, at the very least, ";wrong", but maybe not necessarily evil. Things such as murder, rape, child abuse of any kind; and especially sexual abuse that destroys the innocence of children when no one has any business or right to do so; which, BTW; very often results in life long negative consequences, sexual disfunction, stc. But, Sexual abuse is by no measn the only type of abuse that can leave scars for life, or at the very least, leave long term scars.

So, would we be better off without the notions of good and evil?? IMO; ABSOLUTELY NOT; and I believe that unequivocally. Certain lines have to be drawn; and more importantly; enforced. If they're not drawn or enforced, then we would have a situation where anything goes based on nothing more than the opinions of individuals or groups.

If we're all entitled to our own opinions despite any moral code, and say; me and 39 other people were of the opinion that you should be hanged by the neck until dead (hypothetically speaking of course; and God forbid; of course), based solely on our opinions; say, simply because we didn't like your personality, the color of your eyes, or the clothing you wear or your religious beliefs and/or the lack thereof; and if there are no moral absolutes, then why shouldn't we be allowed to do so?/

If we were of the opinion that you have no rights and civil liberties, such as the right to life based on our opinions, then what's to stop us from carrying out our collectively decided upon execution?? Would carrying it out be wrong; or perhaps even EVIL??

Now, if someone got wind of this plan, or a different group group of people who were all of the opposite opinion regarding your imminent demise; and showed up before we had the rope rigged and around your neck and stepped in, forcing us at gunpoint to set you free, or even killing us in order to save your life, would they be doing "good", or just following their own ambiguous opinions that weren't necessarily "right, wrong, good or evil"; that they had just decided upon themselves and were in agreement with one another about it, that you should be saved from the 39 who had previously decided that you should die and that you should not die??

Are either of these scenarios "right" or 'wrong" or "good" or "evil" in your opinion, or are they basically meaningless notions that can fluctuate depending upon opinion, "the times", the current "norms", etc??

IMO, the 2nd group would be doing "good" in stopping an overwhelmingly obvious "evil" act from being carried out, but I believe in moral absolutes. That's not to say that morals don't differ among different peoples, cultures, etc., because they do, but even so, IMHO; and no one will EVER convince me otherwise; that there are certain things that we all (or almost all of us) just "know" in our hearts are wrong and/or evil and others that are right/good; and I for one am very happy that this is true.

If we (most of us) didn't believe these things collectively, the evil or "bad" that we see in this world as it is, and it IS bad in so many areas, would be small potatoes compared to what we would see if we didn't know these things in our hearts.

There will always be certain individuals who just have conscience. There have always been people like that; but thankfully, those types of people are a small minority. If we were to just abandon the notions of good and evil, this world would go from bad to worse; whether we acknowledge the existence of bad/worse or not. You can be assured that misery and suffering would be even more widespread than it already is. Also, if there were no negative consequences to bad actions, we would see more bad things taking place. That's a given.

You can look at any place on earth where lawlessness abounds for whatever reasons and see the incredible levels of human suffering. In this day and age, we still have slavery in places like Sudan for instance. We have rampant child prostitution in places like Thailand, India; and even here in the US, only not as rampant. God knows where else this is going on; but wherever it is, again; you can guarantee that the level of human suffering is FAR higher than it should ever be. Children forced into livesd where this is all they know is common in some places and ity ruins many for life. Some just eventually kill themselves, or die of STD's, rape, murder, etc.

IMO, if there is a Devil or sasan, or negative entities who oppose the goodness of God, then it's only natural to assume that such entities would want nothing more than to see beautiful young girls sold into prostitution, used, abused and eventually dead in a garbage can or dumpster. It wouold make perfect sense.

So, IMO, there is most definitely good and evil and that they're way more than notions. I also believe that doing away with the "notions" of these things would be disastrous and make what are already bad situations in so many places in this world even worse; FAR worse; and that we should most definitely, and under no circumstances, EVER , EVER, EVER so much as even entertain the thought of abandoning or doing away with these "notions".

If we should ever sink so low as to do such a thing, then we would be doing so at our own peril; and even worse; at the peril of the weakest, most vulnerable and most exploitable among us, who should in actuality be the ones that we watch out for and protect the most; those who cannot protect themselves and those who would be most easily led into situations that put them and their very lives at risk.

[Orca]

Tangentially related to this thread's topic, I thought this was an interesting perspective,for what it's worth...

Philosopher: Why we should ditch religion - CNN.com