Is the Law of Attraction Bulls...?

[Karanime]

-headdesk-

Good morning, gorgeous. Staring at clouds at 11 in the morning has given my eyes a nice, burning sensation. I'll wait a few hours.

The guy was right in his point: You can't just expect things to happen without cause. He was totally toting cause and effect around like a four-year-old on a pony. And he was right. Sitting on your ass and hoping real hard, in most cases, won't do a damned thing.

The cloud thing is awesome because there's maybe only one other way to alter a cloud, and that's getting in a plane and flying at it. In lieu of that, we have our minds. In a lot of cases, using our minds is easier, and the universe goes, "Alright, sweetie, you don't have to get into a plane. Here's some expanding water droplets."

But if you're sitting around hoping to cure cancer, the universe says, "Dear, you can't get any cookies if you don't want to climb up to the jar. Start moving and we'll see what happens."

I think it's pretty sweet you're trying to teach him how to climb up to the cookie jar. But he's still pointing at the ladder. He doesn't think it's floating to you.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

That is quite useful and I will definitely link it to my post. I intend to actually have my LoA study published in Nature. Soon I shall have my PhD in psychology, then I shall make my Law of Attraction study extremely detailed, precise and replicated. I shall write it in the most widely purchased and respectable peer-review journal and thus eliminate any doubt regarding the law of attraction.

Ambitious.

And useless.

It's like proving there is no God. Even if you do it, and get it published in the most respectable journal EVAR, there will be Christians who throw said journal in the trash, saying Satan's corrupted that too, "Oh what is this world coming to?"

People don't want to know they're responsible for everything they've ever experienced. They like to think there are things out of their control, so they don't have to feel guilty about them.

I'm pretty down with that, because I like the thought that I can achieve more in a year than they do their whole lives. 'Cause I know I control everything, and if I did it, there's no way in hell I'll feel guilty for it.

/<3

[Imago]

So, OP, someone you don't know holds an opinion you disagree with, and when they won't come around to your way of thinking, you get angry and come here trying to rouse the rabble to come help you change the mind of this person you don't know whose opinion you don't agree with?

That's a hell of a lot of energy to be wasting on this person you don't even know. What do you get out of this? Don't say "nothing" because you obviously do, or you wouldn't be spending so much energy on it.

The world is totally full of people who have different opinions to you. Why does that piss you off so much?

I ask these questions not expecting any answers. I don't know what the answers are, nor do I particularly care. I ask them thinking that perhaps if you ask them of yourself, you might gain something from the contemplation.

[IamAlsoThat]

While in general, Karanime you can argue that the Law of Attraction as a whole is non-falsifiable... it is very possible to prove certain aspects of it.

By the way A->C->B is still causation. So if your intentions (A) lead to (C) action and action leads to (B) manifestation that is still causation. It might not be direct causation. But it is causation. Lets think of another example of this:
Smoking causes-> Lung Cancer-> Which Causes DEATH. Smoking causes death.

or another even more simple form of causation:

Consumption of sugar-> Causes increase of extracellular sugar-> causes increase of insulin-> causes increase of intracellular sugar...
Consumption of sugar causes increase of intracellular sugar...

The same can be said of any chemical pathway in the animal, or plant cycle.
Saying the law of attraction does not cause manifestation only action does is like saying light does not cause photosynthesis. Light is only the first step in the photosynthetic pathway... as Belief is the cause for action is the cause for manifestation.

Second of all... you also suffer the huge mistaken view of the law of attraction by which "WANTING" causes something to happen. WANTING attracts more WANTING... BELIEVING causes more reason to believe.

But law of attraction can also do direct causation: A->B. In the case of the clouds as I have done and you can easily do. Or it has been proven in the studies previously listed to change crystallization formation.

We might say these cases don't generalize however when we add the high number of testimonials, the large number of related studies which suggest causal relationship between intention and manifestation it becomes clear that we have to change our Cause->Effect model of the universe.

Which really cannot even explain the beginning of the universe.

[IamAlsoThat]

So, OP, someone you don't know holds an opinion you disagree with, and when they won't come around to your way of thinking, you get angry and come here trying to rouse the rabble to come help you change the mind of this person you don't know whose opinion you don't agree with?

That's a hell of a lot of energy to be wasting on this person you don't even know. What do you get out of this? Don't say "nothing" because you obviously do, or you wouldn't be spending so much energy on it.

The world is totally full of people who have different opinions to you. Why does that piss you off so much?

I ask these questions not expecting any answers. I don't know what the answers are, nor do I particularly care. I ask them thinking that perhaps if you ask them of yourself, you might gain something from the contemplation.

I already answered the questions you ask but since you are incapable of reading. Nor checking out the guys blog I shall reiterate it for you. Also I suggest to you to buy a great product that helps people with your condition its available at Hooked on Phonics® | Learn to Read with Award-Winning Educational Programs

The reason why I argue with this guy is because, as someone who believes in Universal consciousness I view conflicts and disagreements are only with myself. Solving these inner-conflicts is necessary for both my inner peace and my reinforced belief in the law of attraction. If I can prove this to everyone on earth then I believe that I will truly believe in it. My belief is that conflicts in the external world can be solved and then conflicts in the innerworld will also be solved. Much as conflicts in the innerworld solved will also solve conflicts in the outerworld.

Furthermore, I had no trouble disproving everyone of the blogger's original points. However, he remained stubborn and disbelieving despite having no arguments left. I asked for support from someone on this forum who might be able to reach him, and in turn I might learn something myself.

[Imago]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

but since you are incapable of reading

That pisses you off too, does it? So much anger.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

Nor checking out the guys blog

Poor assumption.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

I suggest to you to buy a great product that helps people with your condition its available at Hooked on Phonics® | Learn to Read with Award-Winning Educational Programs

Wow, you really are angry. All I did was suggest you ask yourself why you get so angry, and you respond with insults, poor assumptions, and more anger. This isn't about me. You don't even know me. This is about YOU.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

I view conflicts and disagreements are only with myself.

Then look within yourself to solve them. And maybe stop allowing your righteous indignation to run the show.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

If I can prove this to everyone on earth then I believe that I will truly believe in it.

So you base your beliefs on what other people believe?

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

I had no trouble disproving everyone of the blogger's original points.

So what's the problem then? Until this guy says "Okay! I believe!" you can't believe?

What is this, some kind of weird evangelism? You're going to save the world and yourself by convincing random strangers that your beliefs are valid and theirs are not?

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

he remained stubborn and disbelieving

Strange about that. You're such a pleasant person to deal with, too.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

I might learn something myself.

I hope you do. But the place to look for that is within yourself, and particularly at your anger and your need to "be right".

And that was all I was saying. You didn't need to jump on my with cleats on. I was simply making the suggestion that you look inside and find out what triggers this and work on that. Stop caring what the rest of the world believes. People have all kinds of beliefs that conflict with yours, constantly, continually, every moment. Accept that, and then figure out why you get so angry when anyone has an opposing thought or idea.

Feel free to hurl insults at me again, though, if it gives you a vent for your righteous indignation and makes you feel like you're strong and in the right.

[IamAlsoThat]

I argue to follow the practice of Socratic dialectic... at least by label... In other words I try to find out the truth about my self and others based on arguments. I figure when I argue I am really arguing with my subconsciousness or even my conscious beliefs.

This person believes x. I believe y.
Therefore I truly believe x and y and have conflict. Because I like to confront conflict rather than avoid it. I try to solve the conflict.

Are you gonna claim to have read that... which I posted in my 2nd post?

[Imago]

Did I claim to have read it? No. I claim to be able to read, contrary to your assumption that I am unable to.

And you are angry and insulting, whether or not I have read every single word you've posted.

Again I ask you, why are you so angry? Why do you get so angry when someone suggests that this is about YOU? That the righteous indignation and anger you're spewing all over the place is purely your own? And why do you think that everyone in the entire universe must agree with your point of view?

More insults? Go ahead, I'm happy to indulge you. It is all about you, after all.

[IamAlsoThat]

Why do you get so defensive and labeling and reactive yourself...

You asked a question in order to get an angry reaction from me when you could have read further just 1 more post before you jumped to conclusions and assumptions yourself.

Considering you were not willing to read even the 2nd posting I made on the forum and actually created an account just to judge me for my posting without reading further, suggests also a lot of anger and reactivity. When someone is not willing to invest the time to read my second posting on a forum, I think it is not an outrageous assumption to assume they would not read the blog which is discussed in the forum either.
As to the labels of righteous indignation, anger, and insulting manner I do not deny them, as I attempt to live in the present moment, I allow whatever emotion I feel to immediately guide me-- I see no need to mask my anger with soft words. Do you?

By making this post I have learned of scientific research regarding the Law of Attraction and even applied to a research assistanceship with the authors of the mentioned articles.

As a forum is a place for debate and learning I think I achieved those goals by making my post and debating this guy.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

I was searching for my own blog on google and one of the top hits was this site where the poster, posted this post:The Law of Attraction is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Anyway I started debating this guy and several people joined the debate--mostly on his side that the law of attraction does not exist. I've tried reasoning with this guy, explained every single one of his fallacies-- there were like 5. Then he said my only argument was that it worked for me. So I proved more about the law of attraction and the more reactive we both got. He still is yet to actually make an actual provable argument, except that he says I cannot prove that unicorns do not exist but that doesnt mean they do exist. Just like you can't prove the Law of Attraction does not exist.

Anyway someone want to support me? argue also? Lets help universal consciousness grow by disproving this guys website.

I think i kinda concur with the guy..LOA has not worked for me as Jesus is yet to come back Yeah it is what he said!

[Betrade]

From a physical or material standpoint, the LOA doesn't really work and in fact; the opposite is true. Similarly charged particles REPEL one another. Matter and anti matter literally destroy one another if they come in contact. Magnets repel one another if identical poles face one another. The list goes on and on.

On a spiritual level, maybe it does work. It seems to work sometimes but I doubt it can be proven.

I don't believe that when a child (or anyone else) is hit by a car or gets cancer; that they attracted it. If this were true, we would all be living in fear of attracting negative things/experiences and it would be risky just to go outside, or climb stairs.

Like anything, LOA can be taken way too seriously and way too far, so a little balance and common sense is probably a good thing to keep in mind, as well as not blaming ourselves for every negative experience that may come our way. Everything that happens is not our fault. There are other natural laws in place; such as plate tectonics.

The people of Haiti didn't collectively cause the latest earthquake; the earth did through natural processes. Haitians just happened to build many really crappy buildings on a major fault line, but they didn't "will" this disaster, or the deaths of their loved ones and fellow citizens, no more than the people of LA created hurricane Katrina. LOA isn't the only "law" in effect. There are many more, and probably some (if not many) that we're not even aware of.

Again, LOA shouldn't be taken too seriously or too far by anybody. A lifetime could be wasted waiting for something to manifest when something could just as easily have been gotten by DOING whatever is necessary to have gotten it.

[Imago]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

Why do you get so defensive and labeling and reactive yourself.

I'm a reflection of you.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

You asked a question in order to get an angry reaction from me

Incorrect assumption. I asked to get you to look at yourself, to look at your anger. If you became angry as a result, well, what does that say about you?

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

As to the labels of righteous indignation, anger, and insulting manner I do not deny them[/q, as I attempt to live in the present moment, I allow whatever emotion I feel to immediately guide me-- I see no need to mask my anger with soft words. Do you?

By making this post I have learned of scientific research regarding the Law of Attraction and even applied to a research assistanceship with the authors of the mentioned articles.

As a forum is a place for debate and learning I think I achieved those goals by making my post and debating this guy.

[Imago]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

Why do you get so defensive and labeling and reactive yourself.

I'm a reflection of you.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

You asked a question in order to get an angry reaction from me

Incorrect assumption. I asked to get you to look at yourself, to look at your anger. If you became angry as a result, well, what does that say about you?

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

As to the labels of righteous indignation, anger, and insulting manner I do not deny them

Good. Now work with that. Find out where that anger comes from and, more importantly, WHY. Don't justify it, don't explain it. Find the root of it, and really look at it. When you find the root of your anger, you'll find out a lot of other interesting things about yourself, as well.

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

I allow whatever emotion I feel to immediately guide me-- I see no need to mask my anger with soft words.

I'm not angry. But you can experience an emotion without it becoming who and what you are. You seem to be unable to make that distinction. "I feel anger" is not the same as "I am angry".

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

By making this post I have learned of scientific research regarding the Law of Attraction and even applied to a research assistanceship with the authors of the mentioned articles.

Good for you.

How does that address your rage that there are people in the world who hold contrary opinions?

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

a forum is a place for debate and learning

And for insulting people who disagree with you or who try to point to something you don't want to look at?

Peace to you. I hope you eventually wake up to yourself. I'm tired of this game. I hope you find that which you seek, and I hope you seek that which can be found.

[nicbrahms]

Is the Law of attraction ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥?

Okay

I have thought about it long and hard and I would say that the law of attraction is more........... ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ than ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!

Tee hee.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by nicbrahms

Is the Law of attraction ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥?

Okay

I have thought about it long and hard and I would say that the law of attraction is more........... ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ than ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!

Tee hee.

No one seems to want to do battle with the assertion I proposed that the "law of attraction" only exists and is only validated or invalidated in the domain of language (the domain of rhetoric).

Most people here seem to only want to discuss the validation or invalidation of "law of attraction" as realities or not, as real things or not.


Humbug!

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

While in general, Karanime you can argue that the Law of Attraction as a whole is non-falsifiable... it is very possible to prove certain aspects of it.

By the way A->C->B is still causation. So if your intentions (A) lead to (C) action and action leads to (B) manifestation that is still causation. It might not be direct causation. But it is causation. Lets think of another example of this:
Smoking causes-> Lung Cancer-> Which Causes DEATH. Smoking causes death.

or another even more simple form of causation:

Consumption of sugar-> Causes increase of extracellular sugar-> causes increase of insulin-> causes increase of intracellular sugar...
Consumption of sugar causes increase of intracellular sugar...

The same can be said of any chemical pathway in the animal, or plant cycle.
Saying the law of attraction does not cause manifestation only action does is like saying light does not cause photosynthesis. Light is only the first step in the photosynthetic pathway... as Belief is the cause for action is the cause for manifestation.

Second of all... you also suffer the huge mistaken view of the law of attraction by which "WANTING" causes something to happen. WANTING attracts more WANTING... BELIEVING causes more reason to believe.

But law of attraction can also do direct causation: A->B. In the case of the clouds as I have done and you can easily do. Or it has been proven in the studies previously listed to change crystallization formation.

We might say these cases don't generalize however when we add the high number of testimonials, the large number of related studies which suggest causal relationship between intention and manifestation it becomes clear that we have to change our Cause->Effect model of the universe.

Which really cannot even explain the beginning of the universe.

Lmao, that's the thing though. The guy you're arguing with thinks that LoA means wanting it and then having it. Your entire argument on that site seemed to be based on that premise because no one took the time to explain to this guy that his idea of LoA is wrong.

And, y'know, I'd be just as fiery as he was if someone told me just wanting something would give it to me. So would you. We know that doesn't work.

If someone tells him the truth--that LoA is simply intention, and the intention to do something always precedes the actual doing, I'm sure he'd be a little more open to the idea.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by IamAlsoThat

If I can prove this to everyone on earth then I believe that I will truly believe in it. My belief is that conflicts in the external world can be solved and then conflicts in the innerworld will also be solved. Much as conflicts in the innerworld solved will also solve conflicts in the outerworld.

Furthermore, I had no trouble disproving everyone of the blogger's original points. However, he remained stubborn and disbelieving despite having no arguments left. I asked for support from someone on this forum who might be able to reach him, and in turn I might learn something myself.

Oh no, no no no... -shakes head in despair- If and only if you prove it?

You can't prove it. It doesn't work like that. The fact that you're fighting so hard, defending yourself by making personal attacks... luv, you don't actually believe this ****. Otherwise you'd be perfectly content never engaging in another argument unless someone was actually open to the idea.

You didn't disprove the blogger. You just bewildered that guy's poor fanbase, and reinforced the notion that all people who advocate LoA are crackpots.

Telling yourself the argument is to resolve an inner conflict is correct. You don't actually believe in LoA, and you're trying desperately to prove it to yourself. It's not working... Stop resisting the idea that LoA is BS, and then you can truly learn whether it is or not.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

No one seems to want to do battle with the assertion I proposed that the "law of attraction" only exists and is only validated or invalidated in the domain of language (the domain of rhetoric).

Most people here seem to only want to discuss the validation or invalidation of "law of attraction" as realities or not, as real things or not.


Humbug!

I don't do battle because you're right.

All that is is is. Just what you can see with your eyes, hear with your ears, touch with your two bare hands.

Breasts are real. LoA isn't.

/<3

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Karanime

I don't do battle because you're right.

All that is is is. Just what you can see with your eyes, hear with your ears, touch with your two bare hands.

Breasts are real. LoA isn't.

/<3

Breasts only exist as "breasts" in the domain of language and rhetoric.

[Jaiysun4]

Hey everyone. My basic feeling is that believing in the LoA and using it will produce an exciting, amazing life when you properly get into it. So many times i think about what counts as evidence. I don't think physical evidence can really count because there's so much leeway, in terms of what manifests and when, and so many intentions "change" or bring about unexpected results. In other words, consistent, specific manifestations will be very difficult or impossible to achieve across the board.

Perhaps the evidence can only be how it changes your life, if it makes you happier, a better person, if you feel more connected and so on. And what other changes it brings in other areas of your internal experiences
I think scientific experiments will always decide it to be false, but perhaps the deepening of your experiences will be enough of a reason? In this vein, perhaps the best way to "falsify" it would be a documentary or case studies on people who have suffered due to believing in it, for example being a precusor to mental illness, or people getting ripped off by "spiritualists."

That would be a dangerous and quite horrible way to villify the LoA tho! Lol i'm not advocating that, I just thought about what counted as evidence, i.e. positive experiences, enrichment of life, and then what the opposite would be.

------

in fact, im beginning to see the LoA as an internal growth process. Like call and response in a guitar solo. Or like a wave that oscillates, and when it the internal validation comes back a bigger signal can be sent out. Its a non-provable thing, but the proof is in the pudding i guess could you prove a cake is sweet if nobody had tasted sugar? And if somebody told you it isn't sweet but you tasted it, would you believe them? i guess the LoA is more like perceiving colours than provable facts?

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

No one seems to want to do battle with the assertion I proposed that the "law of attraction" only exists and is only validated or invalidated in the domain of language (the domain of rhetoric).

And why should they? How does this help anything?

Most people here seem to only want to discuss the validation or invalidation of "law of attraction" as realities or not, as real things or not.

They might also find this this a good read.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Melchior

And why should they? How does this help anything?

You, me and they should not do nor not do anything as far as I can tell.

Melchior, I assert that, that, that it's value or lack of value only exists in language or rhetoric is a plausable point of view/perspective and it seems to be missing from the discussion.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

You, me and they should not do nor not do anything as far as I can tell.

Melchior, I assert that, that, that it's value or lack of value only exists in language or rhetoric is a plausable point of view/perspective and it seems to be missing from the discussion.

word.

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

You, me and they should not do nor not do anything as far as I can tell.

Melchior, I assert that, that, that it's value or lack of value only exists in language or rhetoric is a plausable point of view/perspective and it seems to be missing from the discussion.

Ah, can you deassert it then so people can continue the discussion of things, pretending there's value in them?

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Melchior

Ah, can you deassert it then so people can continue the discussion of things, pretending there's value in them?

What's it worth to you Melchior? $10,000.00 and I will make it gone! (using the magical powers of rhetoric naturally)

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

What's it worth to you Melchior? $10,000.00 and I will make it gone! (using the magical powers of rhetoric naturally)

Unfortunately, it's not worth much to me, just a few words here and there as you can tell. Carry on if you must.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Melchior

Unfortunately, it's not worth much to me, just a few words here and there as you can tell. Carry on if you must.

No counter offer? what is it worth to you? I might have met you in the middle and split the difference?

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by fishbelowtheice

No counter offer? what is it worth to you? I might have met you in the middle and split the difference?

What is there to offer to someone who's value lies in language but a few words here and there?

As for what it's worth, I think this whole LoA thingy is worth collaborating to take a closer look into it.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by Melchior

What is there to offer to someone who's value lies in language but a few words here and there?

As for what it's worth, I think this whole LoA thingy is worth collaborating to take a closer look into it.

Both truth and lies exist only in the domain of language. You are asserting that I value "lies in language". That is partially true. And, I would consider all of it a lie, as long as what you mean is that every word of it, everything, everything that is spoken and languaged to be false. OR all true, I am ok with it either way.

Anyway, I am taking my offer offer the table. Deals off.

[IamAlsoThat]

to Kariname The first thing I posted was that he has no understanding of the loa and the least he could do when calling something ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is understand it... because he said want rather than believe he has...

Then someone on the comments made the same misguided comment and I corrected them once again... lol

Ok Imago I appreciate your concern and help. Thank you for helping me monitor my anger and prejudgement

To address people who say that the law of attraction does not work without action give it a try before judging. Hold your judgement till after the cloud either disappears for you or doesnt...It would be one thing if I asked you to say your manifestation 10000000x a day for 3 years... this is a 1-2 minute process..
Rhetorifc is not necessary for all thing in the law of attraction. Sometimes it might be the path of least resistance for the universe to work with. Especially if you happen to be gifted in rhetoric, however changing crystal formations in the water or making clouds disappear are things that are pretty hard to achieve with rhetoric alone. For instance you might be able to convince a pilot to fly thru a cloud or convince 20,000 people to make crystals