Do you think people are generally good or bad?

[inri]

In my world...undoubtedly mostly good! I see the human species in general as programmed to evolve towards that which is light, love and of the heart...much the same way a plant instinctively moves towards the sunlight, we are also at our core programmed to eventually move up the scale towards greater and greater levels of love.

As a species, I see that we're currently experiencing a massive movement towards the light.

At times, it will 'appear' as though someone is 'choosing' darkness over the light, however even the perceived darkest of dark choices and acts are merely rungs upon the ladder that eventually all lead us to the same upward direction...it all leads to self-discovery.....which in the end is the realization of pure light...pure love.

All life aspires towards a greater, more expanded version of itself...as consciousness expands, the propensity for love expands.

I see light and love as the constant 'isness' of consciousness itself. Darkness is merely the absence of light.....evil is merely the temporary experience away from love.

[Lioness]

I used to believe that people were inherently good, but subject to bad influences. Now I'm, not so sure. Children are selfish, disobedient and mean to each other more often than they are sweet and angelic, and you have to teach them how to be generous, polite, and law-abiding. They often defy such training.

I heard someone say that when he was in school, the bad kids could always influence the good kids more than vice-versa. IOW, you always see the good kid fall in the with wrong crowd and you rarely see the bad kid fall in with the good crowd.

Lord of the Flies illustrated, accurately, I think, that left to our own devices without the enforced structure of society, the bad will dominate the good. Although, it was boys only. I wonder if you did Lord of the Flies with girls, if the mean girls would take over. Hey, that woukd make for a good story!

[dulaney0330]

I agree with a lot of what lionness has expressed.

Even as an agnostic, I have always stood by the belief that human beings have more of a tendency to do wrong, self-destruct, and hurt.

Evidence of this? Watch your local news! Furthermore, self destructive tendencies which is apparent in all of us certainly undermine the belief of inherent badness.

That being said, I also believe human beings are inherently "good." There is a childlike innocence, compassion, and need to love and be loved that exists in all of us.

The two battle one another and but more frequently the pain/hurt/destruction wins over. Why?

I think it goes to original sin but that's just me.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

The two battle one another and but more frequently the pain/hurt/destruction wins over. Why?

I think it goes to original sin but that's just me.

Christianity. The Grand Installer of internal conflict.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

Christianity. The Grand Installer of internal conflict.

It's obvious to me that many members on this board have an issue with religion, particularly Christianity, and instead of discussing the post there is a subtle dig at a religion.

If I were Muslim, I wonder if you would have responded likewise.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

It's obvious to me that many members on this board have an issue with religion, particularly Christianity, and instead of discussing the post there is a subtle dig at a religion.

If I were Muslim, I wonder if you would have responded likewise.

Nah. Islam encourages EXTERNAL conflict.

Ok...ok... before anyone goes all Jihad on me, that was just a joke. Geez people... LIGHTEN UP!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

It's obvious to me that many members on this board have an issue with religion, particularly Christianity, and instead of discussing the post there is a subtle dig at a religion.

If I were Muslim, I wonder if you would have responded likewise.

You thought that was a subtle dig?

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

You thought that was a subtle dig?

I find it to be somewhat invalidating of my thoughts. Yes, that's how I took it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I find it to be somewhat invalidating of my thoughts. Yes, that's how I took it.

How does my remarking christianity (which you alluded to when you mentioned original sin) is the grand installer of internal conflicts (e.g., good vs. evil, as in your simultaneous belief that people are good and evil) mean your thoughts are invalid?

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

How does my remarking christianity (which you alluded to when you mentioned original sin) is the grand installer of internal conflicts (e.g., good vs. evil, as in your simultaneous belief that people are good and evil) mean your thoughts are invalid?

This is what I thought was invalidating:

"You thought that was a subtle dig? "

I already said it was. What was the purpose of asking a yes or no question?

[Kishka]

We simply experience our version of other people in our world. Whatever you think of someone is exactly how you will experience them. Change you thoughts about the person and you experience another version of the person.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

This is what I thought was invalidating:

"You thought that was a subtle dig? "

I already said it was. What was the purpose of asking a yes or no question?

Oh, I see. I asked, highlighting the word "subtle," to show that I didn't think it was a very subtle dig at all -- but I guess it IS subtle, compared to Steve's 10 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Have Religion!

The dig is not unfounded, I don't think. Christian teachings, I believe, are designed to install internal conflict -- if you're christian, you're supposed to feel conflicted. I wouldn't have said that about Islam because I don't know that to be true about Islam, but my experience being taught about christianity is that we are meant to hold those simultaneous conflicting beliefs, that people are at once good and evil, and good and evil battles inside of us.

As long as a person holds those conflicting beliefs, of course it makes sense that other people will appear to be simultaneously good and evil, too. We don't see people as they are; we see people as WE are.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Oh, I see. I asked, highlighting the word "subtle," to show that I didn't think it was a very subtle dig at all -- but I guess it IS subtle, compared to Steve's 10 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Have Religion!

The dig is not unfounded, I don't think. Christian teachings, I believe, are designed to install internal conflict -- if you're christian, you're supposed to feel conflicted. I wouldn't have said that about Islam because I don't know that to be true about Islam, but my experience being taught about christianity is that we are meant to hold those simultaneous conflicting beliefs, that people are at once good and evil, and good and evil battles inside of us.

As long as a person holds those conflicting beliefs, of course it makes sense that other people will appear to be simultaneously good and evil, too. We don't see people as they are; we see people as WE are.

I kind of chuckled at this considering the post I made upthread (back in February of this year):

Originally Posted by James81

I think people are both good and bad at the same time.

Of course, there is a pervading philosophical thought that "good and bad" doesn't exist or that it's relative, but I won't get into that too much because it's one of those things that I'm kinda tired of hearing myself.

But in my opinion, all things exist simulatneously in everyone. There is the potential for EVERYTHING in each of us, and our experiences are what we use to choose those things. Some of those qualities lie dormant or rarely used in people...and others are brought to consciousness through their thoughts and actions.

I never considered that that was an idea that I took on due to my experiences within the Christian religion.

But I am now.

Yet the search continues for a decent paradigm to replace the old "good or bad" one installed many moons ago. I've come to see the "effective/ineffective" one I was trying on earlier in the year as just the "good/bad" one in an evil disguise!

*le sigh*

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

Oh, I see. I asked, highlighting the word "subtle," to show that I didn't think it was a very subtle dig at all -- but I guess it IS subtle, compared to Steve's 10 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Have Religion!

The dig is not unfounded, I don't think. Christian teachings, I believe, are designed to install internal conflict -- if you're christian, you're supposed to feel conflicted. I wouldn't have said that about Islam because I don't know that to be true about Islam, but my experience being taught about christianity is that we are meant to hold those simultaneous conflicting beliefs, that people are at once good and evil, and good and evil battles inside of us.

As long as a person holds those conflicting beliefs, of course it makes sense that other people will appear to be simultaneously good and evil, too. We don't see people as they are; we see people as WE are.

I understand your views on Christianity and I can only conclude that it was a dig.

When I was agnostic, I felt the conflict within too. Like I said in another thread, I apply more Buddhistic beliefs and practices to my daily life than Christianity. My favorite authors, bryron brown and david riccho, appeal to me more than Biblical passages.

So while I associate myself with Christian beliefs, I also enjoy other aspects of religion--particularly Buddhism. So, take this into account when you want to label me as a "misguided" (my words here) Christian.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I understand your views on Christianity and I can only conclude that it was a dig.

Your conclusion is right on! I think the practice of deliberately installing internal conflicts into people is a stinky one. I do not respect that practice.

So, take this into account when you want to label me as a "misguided" (my words here) Christian.

wat? I never labeled you a misguided christian. I don't think I've labeled you at all, that I can remember.

[st33med]

Originally Posted by Angela

...wat?...

And the infection of the wat spreads.

[Experience]

A murderer is a bad person right?

No he/she is just a person who killed someone deliberately.
He broke one of the laws of where he is living.

saying he's off to hell may screw with his mind and put him in hell.

nothing is actually bad nor good. it just is. minds judge

[James81]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

I understand your views on Christianity and I can only conclude that it was a dig.

When I was agnostic, I felt the conflict within too. Like I said in another thread, I apply more Buddhistic beliefs and practices to my daily life than Christianity. My favorite authors, bryron brown and david riccho, appeal to me more than Biblical passages.

So while I associate myself with Christian beliefs, I also enjoy other aspects of religion--particularly Buddhism. So, take this into account when you want to label me as a "misguided" (my words here) Christian.

It may help to know that it was a dig at Christianity and not you personally.

I understand, though, that because you associate with christian beliefs, that it may have felt like a dig at you personally, but your beliefs aren't really *you*...if you get what I mean.

I think that's the nature through which we protect our beliefs...because they, in turn, protect us.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by Angela

Your conclusion is right on! I think the practice of deliberately installing internal conflicts into people is a stinky one. I do not respect that practice. .

Or perhaps Christianity acknowledges this conflict without instilling it. Like I said, I was an agnostic for 5 years and I had this conflict. I don't know anyone who hasn't experienced it to a degree.

Originally Posted by Angela

wat? I never labeled you a misguided christian. I don't think I've labeled you at all, that I can remember.

You are right that you never labeled me. And I spoke too hastily. Although, I assume that those who follow a religion that you believe is false could easily be seen as such.

I do my best to play devil's advocate when I type up a post. I can see why a person may have such views about religion because I was that person at one time!

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by James81

It may help to know that it was a dig at Christianity and not you personally.

I understand, though, that because you associate with christian beliefs, that it may have felt like a dig at you personally, but your beliefs aren't really *you*...if you get what I mean.

I think that's the nature through which we protect our beliefs...because they, in turn, protect us.

When I first read the "dig," I felt more agitation over focusing on Christianity than the rest of my post.

It's true that every belief we hold we want to protect. If someone were to bash psychology, which I adore, I will defend it. It's something important to me.

Likewise, aspects of Christianity have been primary and important in the growth of my character and integrity and I am proud of the fact. Sometimes, I want people to know there are benefits of holding Christian beliefs

[st33med]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

Or perhaps Christianity acknowledges this conflict without instilling it. Like I said, I was an agnostic for 5 years and I had this conflict. I don't know anyone who hasn't experienced it to a degree.

I wasn't really conflicted when I became agnostic then finally atheist. I just didn't feel like Christianity was something I wanted to follow and wasn't sure what to be yet. So I chose to be a spiritual atheist.

Christianity is very conflicted between good and evil inside people! I chose not to be conflicted between desire and rules of religion.

[James81]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

When I first read the "dig," I felt more agitation over focusing on Christianity than the rest of my post.

It's true that every belief we hold we want to protect. If someone were to bash psychology, which I adore, I will defend it. It's something important to me.

Likewise, aspects of Christianity have been primary and important in the growth of my character and integrity and I am proud of the fact. Sometimes, I want people to know there are benefits of holding Christian beliefs

I see that there are some benefits from Christian beliefs, most notably from the words of Jesus himself.

Some beliefs, however, can be damaging to where we, as a society, say we want to take ourselves. For example, I noticed that in your previous post that you said, "If I were Muslim, I wonder if you would have responded likewise. "

And it made me wonder why you particularly chose to use the Muslim religion as an example. You could've just as easily have said Buddhist, Hindu, whatever.

But you either consciously or unconsciously chose "Muslim" for that example.

And knowing that there is great conflict right now between the christians and muslims because of the 9/11 stuff, just sort of made me wonder if you're buying into the whole belief christians have that Muslims are out to get us. (Also wondering based on your comments in the other thread where we discussed this very idea before.)

I think the Muslim vs. Christian conflict is a damn damaging idea, and it's perpetuated mostly by the christians I know.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by st33med

I wasn't really conflicted when I became agnostic then finally atheist. I just didn't feel like Christianity was something I wanted to follow and wasn't sure what to be yet. So I chose to be a spiritual atheist.

Christianity is very conflicted between good and evil inside people! I chose not to be conflicted between desire and rules of religion.

I am sure many people did not feel the conflict. Many people do.

So often, what works for me may not work for you. That seems to be how it goes with anything!

Since I have always been naturally conservative, these "rules" were actually just wise, decision making! Sex before marriage? Lots of things can go wrong there. Rules against stealing, gossiping, giving false testimony, adultery? All good things to follow. Most of it just appears like common sense.

But, everyone sees it differently! It's hard to argue subjectivity.

[dulaney0330]

Originally Posted by James81

I see that there are some benefits from Christian beliefs, most notably from the words of Jesus himself.

Some beliefs, however, can be damaging to where we, as a society, say we want to take ourselves. For example, I noticed that in your previous post that you said, "If I were Muslim, I wonder if you would have responded likewise. "

And it made me wonder why you particularly chose to use the Muslim religion as an example. You could've just as easily have said Buddhist, Hindu, whatever.

But you either consciously or unconsciously chose "Muslim" for that example.

And knowing that there is great conflict right now between the christians and muslims because of the 9/11 stuff, just sort of made me wonder if you're buying into the whole belief christians have that Muslims are out to get us. (Also wondering based on your comments in the other thread where we discussed this very idea before.)

I think the Muslim vs. Christian conflict is a damn damaging idea, and it's perpetuated mostly by the christians I know.

I chose Muslim because I believe Americans are more sensitive to bashing Islam than Christianity. I say this from experience and from what I have seen from the media.

I don't know if Muslims are out to get us, although I don't want to get into another religious debate! This thread is already derailing

Might I add that I do not like how separated the world is into all these religions. It certainly only causes more harm than good since people tend to fight one another than express compassion and acceptance.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by dulaney0330

This thread is already derailing

Might I add that I do not like how separated the world is into all these religions. It certainly only causes more harm than good since people tend to fight one another than express compassion and acceptance.

...or continue to belabor a point that is self-admittedly already divisive and derailing?

[cdavis]

good and bad are not concrete definitions

what is good to me is bad to you

what is bad to you could be good to me

both change form

very, very easily

the more I've lived the more I've learned this.

[JTP]

I believe that people are originally kind, just sometimes environment and people around affect them and force them to become evil or bad.

Somehow, "Treat other on how you want other to treat you" still work very well in real life.

[Angela]

Presenting dichotomies, like good vs. bad, is a classic and very effective way to manipulate and control people.

Religions are great at that; politicians, too. Some parents get pretty good at it! ("Do you want to go to be at 8:45 or quarter to nine? You choose.") Dichotomies are helpful in cases like that mom who wants her child to get a good night's sleep (win/win), but they're also really great presuppositions to make and present for someone who wants to operate with a win/lose intention.

Good vs. bad people is a particularly effective controller. As I was mentioning, christian leaders encourage people to believe there are good people (us, of course) and bad people (them) because, first of all, it installs internal conflict (you're good and you're going to heaven because you believe in Jesus, but you're bad and you're going to have to take some steps to avoid going to hell because you sin), and being internally conflicted makes you really susceptible to being controlled. ("here, we'll help you by telling you what to do to make sure you don't end up in hell.")

Also, religious and political leaders want you to believe in limited choice (dichotomy) because people who are unconflicted and present to limitless choice are at peace, and it's really hard to get someone like that to fight your battles. A country that doesn't promote good vs. evil won't have much of an army.

A member who was talking about battling the forces of Satan is a good example of that vulnerability. The teachings of her church have her seeing an epic struggle which must at the level of individual purpose be won, "bad" forces must be struck down, and the fight must continue to turn more and more people on to The TruthTM of that. The fight itself keeps her fighting for more fighters.

For a long time, a big dichotomy that was presented was US v. USSR -- democracy vs. communism. Although there are still residual elements of that, it kind of pooped out as a presupposition, and was immediately replaced with the Islamic threat. There are elements of truth used to stoke up fear and loathing for whole large groups of people, such that the word itself becomes an anchor: "commie," "atheist," "Muslim," "terrorist," "feminist." Many people just read or hear those words and jump into the blender and push "frappe." (That is a good anchor, that can get people to go all blender-froggy!)

I think that a really wonderful way to make a move towards more peace, prosperity, joy, and love in the world is to practice at an individual level noticing dichotomies or other presuppositions of less choice, and to make evaluations of what works well more and more often as we practice letting go of making judgements, especially about the inherent value of other people. And also noticing when we're manufacturing dichotomies, which is what we do when we create and maintain identity level limiting beliefs, like "I'm worthless" or "I'm stupid" or "I'm not good enough." It's not easy, because there are some fairly epic structures in place encouraging you to judge and to blame yourself and others, and the reward for generating resolution is that we become more and more conscious and aware of MORE choice, freedom, and opportunity, not just for ourselves as individuals, but for the health, vitality, and ecology of the entire organism. The lot of us.

[st33med]

I want to give you more rep points, Angela, but it won't let me!!!

Great, excellent, to-the-point post! Love it and you, you bright and wonderful person.

[Angela]

Thank you, Andrew!