Test the Enlightened One.

[nicbrahms]

My friend I have decided that you can be anything you want to be, if you decide you are enlightened then who am I to question you. For if you are enlightened then so must I be.

I have noticed that there has been an influx of threads about enlightenment in recent weeks and it is telling me something very interesting about myself.

I will not judge, I will not love you anyway but unconditionally and I will not treat you in a way I do not wish to be treated, in that I will tell you that I believe that you are enlightened.

May the fruits of your knowledge be the very food that feeds your body whilst your mind contemplates the unknown.

Peace

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

Inventors gave us the computers. *storms away from technology that non-scientists invented*

Can't.... resist.... debate....

So I pondered it and came to the conclusion that technology is a branch of science. Why do I say this? Well, for starters, computer parts are not dug out of the ground, shaped to fit into a computer perfectly. I'm sure a fair bit of chemistry goes into the composition of these parts.
In fact, look around your room. From the chair your sitting on to the food you eat, science was involved. It's far more than a belief system.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

What is the difference between enlightenment and delusion, Mr Enlightened?

I wanted to say that "enlightened" people have followers. That's why I created that long-ass post on my blog. I was trying to demonstrate that there's no reliable definition of enlightenment - that it's just a big word game (viz. Wittgenstein). I think sooo many people are missing that point.

Delusion implies that your sense apparatus isn't functioning properly. The problem is that we can never go beyond our own perception. Delusion is a social construct, not a verifiable one.

We can only define enlightenment and delusion using arbitrary social markers, like, "Holy crap Jesus were Enlitened b/c Lots of PPl followed Him."

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Can't.... resist.... debate....

So I pondered it and came to the conclusion that technology is a branch of science. Why do I say this? Well, for starters, computer parts are not dug out of the ground, shaped to fit into a computer perfectly. I'm sure a fair bit of chemistry goes into the composition of these parts.
In fact, look around your room. From the chair your sitting on to the food you eat, science was involved. It's far more than a belief system.

Scientists are people who apply the scientific method. Using this definition, we're all scientists at one point or another. People who TITLE themselves as scientists (i.e. people at universities) are some of the MOST UNSCIENTIFIC PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. They put forward a mechanistic, monistic, unitary view of the world based on a cult dogma called "Western Science" which is nothing but a collection of soon-to-be-falsified theories about how the world works. They openly admit that what they espouse will be falsified one day, but they continue to push their "knowledge" into everyone's head via the academic system.

Inventors rely on the scientific method to aid in the creation of their product. But the act of creation is not science, but art.

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

What is the difference between enlightenment and delusion, Mr Enlightened?

My answer: the enlightened is right. Interestingly enough, this answer supposes that there is a reality to be right about...

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

. People who TITLE themselves as scientists (i.e. people at universities) are some of the MOST UNSCIENTIFIC PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. They put forward a mechanistic, monistic, unitary view of the world based on a cult dogma called "Western Science" which is nothing but a collection of soon-to-be-falsified theories about how the world works. They openly admit that what they espouse will be falsified one day, but they continue to push their "knowledge" into everyone's head via the academic system.

I can see how inventing could be considered art. I'll have to mull that one over some more!
What I'm finding is that it's not so much anger and negativity that I'm picking up on. It's an "us vs them" attitude, as if society has been robbed of something and were fighting to get it back.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Angela

"I'm an angry man who's not getting the results I want, but dammit, I'm gonna be rich one day!" Is that the message you want to be spread?

I followed Jesse initially as I found his blog post quite interesting, but then quickly switched off when he quickly changed stance and everything was about money.

I see a little bit of a lost soul, young and quite angry.

Have you made any money yet Jesse?

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

I no longer believe in science. It's one belief system among many.

So says a guy sitting at his COMPUTER.
Standing on the shoulders of Science shouting his message.


How can something so subject to constant change be a belief system?

[spacedout]

Dear Manomanman,

I would like for you to describe your experience while in enlightenment without the use of your personal definition of what it is, your opinion of what it is or what enlightenment should be or needs to be. Can you give your first-hand experience of what it is like without using the words "they," "you," "them," "we," or even "I"? As you sit there at the computer what are you experiencing that a non-enlightened person would not experience.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by spacedout

As you sit there at the computer what are you experiencing that a non-enlightened person would not experience.

Free thought.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by joelr

How can something so subject to constant change be a belief system?

It's a lens through which reality is viewed. I'm referring more to the Western belief system that is created out of the method. The method is less dogmatic, though there are philosophical problems with science as a system for discovering knowledge or truth.

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

It's going to be hard for me to give an adequate answer because you say, "In what is considered to be the true reality". The word true has a lot of problems in it. Reality doesn't operate on principles of truth/falsity - it's nature is fundamentally different from that.

True as in ultimate reality, highest objective truth even if that truth is that there are no objective truths, resulting in a paradox of sorts. This is evident when you say that nature is "fundamentally different from that". There's something there that will be "true" nonetheless (except that there isn't). For instance, it's true that I'm currently training myself to think around paradoxes and make sense of them.

We might ask, "What lies beyond our perception?" In other words, what is it on the other side of our senses that is causing the reality we experience?

I call it "the netherworld". We can only make guesses, but here is what I guess: There is another "mode" of existence that is not matter and not energy. It is a form of existence that is pure experience and is what is "injected" into the physical plane that we inhabit. Physical and spiritual (i.e. mental) "matter" get mixed together in our consciousness.

Then there must be some conversion factor relating these that are not to that which is at the fundamental level. But another thing, here you've used the word consciousness without showing me what you mean by it and so I don't know what you're trying to say. If there's a way to 'show' me what you mean such that I can understand what you mean, I would love to hear it as I've been trying for a while now...

There is something interesting about language that a lot of people overlook, namely, the ability of ideas to shape physical matter.

When I speak of godhood, I speak of the power of language to have increasing power over the physical world.

You mean that language is the manifestation of ideas? Ideas born out of a reality that has no inherent language to it? I would propose that this use of the word language would then simply be any type of action taken by someone such as yourself, such as waving a hand instead of saying hello, motor output of the body and whatever else your mind is connected to, essentially, the mind being the entity where ideas come into existence.

Your question is good though, because it's a stumper. I can't answer with a high degree of certainty, just vague things I've experienced as I've tried to transcend my physical limitations.

It was meant to be difficult. This is a test, after all.

[Toine]

Too lazy to be ambitious,
I let the world take care of itself.
Ten days' worth of rice in my bag;
a bundle of twigs by the fireplace.
Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?
Listening to the night rain on my roof,
I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out.

-Ryokan