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02-20-2007, 03:16 AM
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 “Knowing God” and “Levels of Consciousness” This is a (long) post in response to a comment in another thread. I’m starting a new thread here so I don’t hijack the other one and move away from the original topic started there. For the impatient, if you don't have time to read everything, you can just skip to the parts in bold. Quote:
For example, I thought I was talking about the same exact thing with the other person, only to realize later on we couldn’t be farther apart. I remember one case where I talked for a couple hours with this older Jewish man in his fifties about "knowing God" and our personal "relationship with God". He was a very spiritual man and he had a lot of insights. However, at the end of our talk, I remember throwing out a casual statement that "Evil really doesn’t exist 'out there'." and he was totally shocked. He started chuckling and listing off all the "evil" he saw around him in the world and asked me "How can you possibly say that THAT is not evil?". And to this day, whenever we run into each other, he continues to remind me of all the "evil" he sees in the world. He’s still very friendly and we still enjoy each other’s company, but every time we talk at length, even though I try to avoid going back to that particular topic about "evil", he continues to say things like "Someday, Joe, when you are ready to open your eyes, God will show you all the evil that exists around you." or "You need to get it through your thick skull, Joe, that simply saying that evil doesn’t exist, doesn’t make it go away." So basically, after a couple of similar experiences with other people, I gave up on using the word "God" and just used words like "Universe" or "Consciousness" or "Life" instead. Meaning, I usually took more of an eastern slant on these types of discussions, where "God" is seen more as a process or a force, rather than a western slant, where God is seen as more personable and knowable. (With neither "slant" being more right or true than the other one.) But I’m digressing. I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts, positive or negative, on the book "How to Know God" by Deepak Chopra. Or even just get some opinions from others on "Knowing God" and "Relationships with God" as it relates to "Levels of Consciousness". I really like this book because I think it helps people who have grown up with the common fear of God and eternal damnation. (I grew up Catholic.) I think it helps people, like me, transition towards some more empowering beliefs and relationships with God. A lot of non-dual spiritual teachers seem to say that a path or a process is just a huge waste of time. Better to see Truth now, right? But I’m beginning to think that unless the transition is gradual rather than all-at-once, some people won’t even be open to listening to these ideas, much less integrating them. It’s just too much to digest at once. For example, someone living in the Bible Belt and is in constant fear of God and going to hell is probably not going to be all that receptive to any idea that "hell" can also be seen as a state of mind rather than an actual place or realm. I mean, I think there is a lot of "unlearning" that needs to occur first before any potentially conflicting ideas and beliefs are allowed in. (continued below...) Last edited by Glass Joe : 02-20-2007 at 03:24 AM.      |
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02-20-2007, 03:18 AM
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| (continued from above...) Here is a brief summary of the stages of consciousness that the “How To Know God” book goes over. (BTW, these are my summaries, and not exact quotes, so you might see some discrepancies and aspects of stages not covered.) Each stage listed below is a brief summary of how a hypothetical individual is likely to see God, believe in God, and relate to God at his/her particular level of consciousness. But don’t get hung up on the particular stages. The map is not the territory. There could just as well be 777 stages instead of just 7. So if anyone has read "How to Know God", or similar books that discuss levels of consciousness and how they help shape/filter our concepts of God and help create our relationships with God, I’d love to hear your thoughts about them. STAGE 1: God can obliterate me, and for seemingly no reason at all. Life is full of fear of annihilation and anger at the lack of meaning or reason behind everything. I pray to God to show me just an ounce of mercy, and to somehow find it in His/Her heart to spare my tiny insignificant life from all the random chaos and destruction surrounding me. STAGE 2: God can support me... just as long as I obey His/Her laws and commandments. I learn that I am actually useful to God. I pray to God to help me "fall in line" and locate my role within the system. If I do what's required of me, I'm rewarded handsomely. If I commit a single sin, I'm punished severely, and for all eternity. God's use for me and so-called love for me is 100% conditional. And my cooperation with him is purely contractual. If you take away God’s carrot dangling in front of me and God’s whip cracking behind me, I wouldn’t want any relationship with God at all. Even though I no longer fear God like I used too, I sometimes find myself hating Him. And I think God knows it. STAGE 3: God can bring me inner peace from the cold harsh material world of birth and death, consisting of only empty guilty pleasures and inevitable excruciating pains. I pray to God to help me escape all the trappings of the outer world. I try to hold onto the peaceful sanctuary of my inner world for as long as possible, but the outer world, continues to keep dragging me back out of it. The outer world is like a loan shark that keeps knocking on the door of my inner world, reminding me of the mountains of karmic debt I must still repay. I really wish that God would somehow absolve me of this never-ending karmic debt and somehow permit me to live in this calm, safe, blissful inner world forever. But for some reason God never does this for me. The cruel heartless outer world still has its claws dug into me and refuses to let me leave. STAGE 4: God can bring me insight and clarity into the true nature of reality. God can help me get a glimpse of the seemingly complex web of relationships between my vast inner world and the vast outer world. I pray to God to help me bridge this (apparently) wide and treacherous gap between these two very different worlds. At this stage, the outer world isn't seen as so cold and empty anymore. My inner world is no longer seen as so pristine and utopian anymore. Things are no longer as “black and white” as they used to be. Concepts like “Morality”, “Justice”, “Good”, and “Evil” feel like oceans that I I’m drowning in. I have nothing sturdy to hold on to anymore. So I trust my intuition a lot more than I trust rational analysis. I wish that God would help me out of this ocean and help me find the shore. But for some reason God doesn’t give me anything to keep me afloat. God gives me no definitive answers to any of the important questions that continue to bother me. STAGE 5: God and I are teammates. We are the best of friends. We can even be seen as the best of lovers. However the relationship is viewed, whether as teammates, friends, lovers, or a Jedi-like “Force”, it’s an extremely personal and cooperative relationship. God needs me just as much as I need Him/Her. I pray to God for His/Her cooperation in manifesting a life full of unlimited adventure, love, creativity, and discovery. And God, surprisingly and for the first time, even starts praying to me (!), asking for the opportunity to see His/Her creations through my eyes and to feel them through my hands, and to experience everything in the world from my (wonderfully) limited and focused perspective. God shows me how to align with and navigate the river of life with minimal effort and with minimal resistance. "Winning" and "losing", "peace" and "disturbance", "pain" and "pleasure" don't matter anymore, but are seen as necessary and inseparable dichotomies. They are a part of the game. (You can’t have a game of Counter-strike without both terrorists and counter-terrorists.) Whatever role I play in life, it matters more than anything else how I play the game, and how I keep the game going and keep the plot moving forward. STAGE 6: God and I are seen as complementary aspects and opposite polarities of the same infinite intelligent creative process. There can't be one without the other. There’s no God without I. No I without God. In this stage, there is no longer a "need" for each other or “cooperation” between us, any more than one side of a coin "needs" the other side or “cooperates” with the other side. God and I co-arise simultaneously. One side doesn’t “create” the other. Prayer is no longer seen as all that necessary anymore, and is really just a formality. God and I are more like lifelong teammates/friends/lovers who can simply read each other's subtle body language instead of needing to speak. God's thoughts and my thoughts are almost indistinguishable from each other now. I see what God sees, and God sees what I see. I truly want what God wants, and God truly wants what I want. When I suffer, God suffers even more so. When God suffers, I suffer even more so. Intention-Manifestation is almost seen as a redundant term. At this stage, what IS NOT intention-manifestation? IM comes almost as freely and as naturally as breathing. All objects/events/circumstances in both the inner and outer worlds are literally seen as abundant as air, water, or thoughts. Can you ever run out of thoughts? STAGE 7: I am God. God is I. God and I are "not two". Now, even terms like “dichotomies” and “polarities” are seen as inaccurate and not quite right. We are no longer seen as two sides of the same coin. At this stage, there is no coin. Any aspect of this stage can't be put into words and all descriptions are inaccurate (including this description), because words are limiting and dualistic. Even the words “God” and “I” are meaningless now. There is neither God, nor I. Only Emptiness. Un-manifest. Unknown. Indescribable. Immeasurable. Infinite. Eternal. Boundless. Freedom. I AM THAT. Intention-manifestation has no meaning anymore. EVERYTHING is intention-manifestation. Thoughts have no meaning anymore. Prayer has no meaning anymore. When I pray to God, I pray to myself. All stages, including this one, are seen as exactly the same and perfect exactly where they are. The final stage, transcends, yet includes, all concepts of all stages. All my visions of God, ALL OF THEM, are seen simply as projections of myself. All my relationships with God, whether trembling in fear before God’s feet at Stage 1 or trembling in ecstasy as an aspect of God at stage 6, are all relationships with myself. I see that my whole existence, ALL OF IT, was always, still is, and will forever continue to be... a dream. But calling ALL OF IT “a dream”, calling EVERYTHING “a dream”, is still using dualistic language and is therefore inaccurate and not quite right. To call “IT” anything, to label it or try to make an understanding of it, no matter how subtle, is to miss “IT”. Last edited by Glass Joe : 02-20-2007 at 03:21 AM. |
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02-20-2007, 03:43 AM
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| Great posts, very thought-provoking  and honored to have provided any help or impetus Still digesting, but wanted to post a link to a copy of Dr. Hawkin's MOC (Map of Consciousness): Your Advancement toward Enlightenment - Power vs Force The God-view column in particular correlates very well with the 7 stages you described. I do have one comment about traditional religions, and that is that they portray a relationship with God in a linear way, thus limiting the growth of consciousness. With a consciousness-based approach it is a lot easier to see where you are, and where the next step is; but with religion, they just give God to you straight up, usually with bits and pieces of all the stages jumbled together, and they expect you to believe and trust in that God faithfully. Even if you do manage a "good relationship" with God, there is no explanation of how to improve that relationship and know God better -- people get bogged down in inconsequential details and dogma, like going to church more, stopping swearing, reading more bible verses, etc. No wonder so many people are put off by religion  No idea on what we can do to improve the situation, though. Seems like the best way is just to focus on yourself, become enlightened, and lift mankind's consciousness through your own LOC. |
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02-21-2007, 10:19 AM
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02-22-2007, 08:58 AM
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| Thanks for the link ethereal. Great stuff. I should read some more of Hawkins' books. I liked Power vs. Force, but I don’t own that book myself so I only read it once when I checked it out from the library. But I never read anything else from him. BTW - it sounds like you really like Hawkin's books, so if you can recommend your absolute favorite book of his, I'd like to know which one.I’m open to reading more books from him. And I’m not really sure why I never sought anything else out from him, now that I think about it. I guess I was turned off a bit after reading some criticism about him and seeing how he responds to critics by calibrating them at very low levels - deeming their criticisms too invalid to respond to - but not really saying where or why. I don’t know. I would think that at the level of consciousness he’s at on his map, he’d be indifferent to criticism either way, right?  Regardless, I agree that Hawkins' map, not to mention Wilber's and Aurobindo's maps, can correlate well with Chopra's. With Chopra’s map admittedly being the most basic and accessible of the bunch. And the other maps being more comprehensive, rather than just focusing on solely the God-aspect like Chopra does. So it’s probably more like Chopra’s map fitting somewhere into these other larger maps rather than the other maps fitting somewhere into Chopra’s. But it’s all good. For instance, I like how Wilber's map contains "lines" of development, where you can see yourself move up in one developmental line or area of your life, yet still be very immature in other areas. So basically, a relationship with or paradigm of God / The Universe / Spirit / Tao / Consciousness / Flying Spaghetti Monster can be seen as one of these developmental lines. And so someone can have a highly developed relationship with or paradigm of G/U/S/T/C/FSM, yet still have a horrible relationship with or paradigm of their children (for example, maybe seeing their children more like pets or like a “Mini-Me” to live vicariously through). Or someone can be highly developed in their work-life, yet still have a poor diet and poor physical fitness. For example, I remember talking to this older Christian man who was going to divinity school on scholarship. Spirituality was a very large part of his life and he seemed to have a lot of insight. However, whenever he talked about his ex-wife, he often referred to her simply as “that bitch who left me”.  This surprised me at first but I thought it was kind of funny, in a “we are all just innocent children” sort of way. I mean, I could just feel the pain in his heart along with his self-denial about any part he played in the divorce whenever he talked about her.And you’re right about traditional religions being a mixed bag, where it's hard, if not impossible, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Personally, I pretty much stay away from any sort of organized religion or rituals. Except for maybe Christmas presents and Easter. But for the most part, I think religion and relationship/paradigm of God should be looked at separately. I mean, someone could be highly religious, yet still view God as a bearded man in the sky. And another person could barely know anything about common religious practices, yet view God from a more integral perspective. Same goes for academia vs. education.Quote:
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02-22-2007, 09:56 AM
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| These posts really provoke a great discussion. I truly enjoy Deepak Chopra's books. "The Book of Secrets" as well as "Life After Death: The Book of Answers" would likely appeal to you if you haven't already read them. I appreciate how Chopra draws from different religions in his portrayal of Higher Forces. He links a vision of God with certain religions, and a more general view of a higher power to others, especially in the form of cultural fables. I find his alternative view of medicine also introduce spiritual ideas which are far elss threatening that extremeist views of religion. I encourage people to visit this site: http://www.chopra.com/124159.html |
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02-22-2007, 01:01 PM
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| Hehe, regarding Dr. Hawkins' work: I actually read his response to some critics, and the key thing was that skepticism (proving your own position) calibrates low, while sincere doubt (seeking the truth) calibrates high. Your situation was exactly what he was trying to prevent -- skeptics/critics swaying sincere spiritual seekers away from Truth. In fact, that was what happened to me in the beginning as well  read PvsF, stopped, and went on to other teachers. Later I came back, read his other books, and realized he was the real deal. Definitely check out the sequels to PvsF: Eye of the I, and I: Reality and Subjectivity. The neat thing is that he's a modern mystic, being enlightened and then coming back into the ordinary world to explain everything in simple terms that we can understand, and with examples/practices that are applicable to today's world. With Buddha and Jesus and other mystics, the geographical/cultural/temporal circumstances are different, so many things they said are hard to understand, mistranslated, or may not apply as well. Kinesiology/calibration is a very useful tool. Unfortunately I don't know how to do it consistently myself, but in his other book Truth vs. Falsehood (basically, a book full of calibrations) he lists many notable calibrations, especially of spiritual teachers and teachings, that are very useful. Especially important are some of his calibrations on various New Age teachers/channelers. I was caught in the whole astral/channelling/energy stuff for awhile, but realized that while interesting, it's still a distraction for the serious spiritual seeker of enlightenment. Anyway, check out some of his archived radio programs: David Hawkins, M.D.Ph.D. Beyond the Ordinary Dot Net Not only is he down-to-earth and truthful but also very funny I found that surprising for an enlightened sage. |
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02-28-2007, 09:24 AM
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| Here's a flickr diagram showing some additional ways to look at levels of consciousness. Also, there are many MANY more integral diagrams (over 500!) in that same flickr photoset. So if you're a Ken Wilber fan, you can "geek out" on integral diagrams until you puke! ethereal: Thanks for the info. I'll look into those books. Liara: I read "Book of Secrets", but not "Life After Death" yet. "Book of Secrets" is a great book too. I agree. Personally, I think one of the main reasons I like Chopra, and "How to Know God", is because he combines ideas about Intention-Manifestation together with spirituality, personal growth, and non-dualism. I think most other teachers/authors prefer to keep these seperate and just focus on one single subject. For example: - Authors like Wallace Wattles and Napolean Hill focusing mainly on I-M, as it applies to wealth. - Authors like Wei Wu Wei and Tony Parsons focusing only on non-dualism and (by definition) negating ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING else. - Authors like Brian Tracy and Tony Robbins focusing mostly on personal growth, without getting too spiritual, philosophical, or religious about it. - Various other spiritual and religious teachers, take your pick, focusing more on the many views and relationships with God / Universe / Nature / etc... But I can understand why most teachers want to focus on one thing. Each area by itself has a lot of material to cover. And depth is usually better than breadth. However, one pitfall I can see is where the individual ONLY focuses on I-M, but not caring about any other area of development. Or the individual ONLY focusing on non-dualism, and not caring about the idea of growth at all. In my case, I was already into personal growth and I-M, but really only as it applied to wealth and my career, but not much else. I think it was only after reading Chopra did I start getting interested in the many other philosophical and spiritual areas of growth. I admit that Chopra can only scratch the surface in a lot of these areas, so you have to do all the research yourself, but it's still cool to get these many different subjects packed into one single book. Last edited by Glass Joe : 02-28-2007 at 09:37 AM. |
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02-28-2007, 10:04 AM
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| How intriguing. I was just about to post a thread to ask if anyone else had read 'Life After Death.' I re-read 'How to Know God' over xmas. Chopra explains how and why IM works, plus everything else in between. I'm a clairvoyant/medium and much of what Chopra's saying resonates with my own understanding. I read a book many years ago called Life After Death by Neville Randall, that gives some insights into the continuation of lives after death, gained through documented conversations with the dead about what was happening in their world. The book was documented by a deep trance channel, a scribe, and a friend of the channel. All three met once a week for a few years and every new entity they bought through was asked to give their name date of birth and date, location, of their death. This information was cross referenced with registers. Their evidence was on a par with Chopra's in that most people continued to recreate the illusion of their lives until something prompted them to think it could be different. Some of my work with clients and channeling has taken me into the lives between lives. Brian Weiss's book 'Many Lives, Many Masters' discusses this. I've met many spiritual New Age people who hanker for more spiritual highs, like junkies waiting for their next fix, wanting to escape the realities of this world. It has always been my belief that this earthly life is as significant as the world of spirit. I have always known that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience, having been aware of myself in spirit form from a young age. Chopra's latest book confirms for me that we are fully capable of manifesting any aspect of the universal mind (everything you believe in and can concieve of) into the material world when we begin to think beyond ourselves. Lallymac Last edited by Lallymac : 02-28-2007 at 10:07 AM. |
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03-03-2007, 12:05 AM
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| Hi Glass Joe. I think its interesting how you break up the authors who deal with different levels of I-M. I see wealth creation in six levels (discussed on my blog). As you say, I agree it can be difficult to cover many of these levels in depth, however, I'm not convinced that people who read I-M books necessarily know which area is most important to them or that any one is connected to many others. I wonder if you've read any of Neale Donald Walsh's books in the Conversations with God Series? If so, what are your impressions? Hi Lallymac. Thanks for your book suggestions. I'll look those up. I've met New Age people who aren't as focused on this life as what may lie beyond. I appreciate your view, based on medumship experience, that each dimension is equally important. I sense we all have great potential to learn from wherever we are at a given time. I wonder how often you sense things about the lives of strangers and what would compel you to share what you learn?  |
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03-03-2007, 12:39 PM
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I remember liking the first two CWG books very much back in the day, when I think I still had relatively Christian beliefs (yet claiming to be agnostic). The primary emotion I'm recalling about these books as I write this post is "consoling".  And "consoling" is always nice. But honestly, it was so long ago, that I really don't remember these books all that much. And I guess the reason why I didn't continue on with the rest of the CWG series was because I just got interested in reading other stuff. Wow! I'm so glad you asked that question Liara! Because I totally forgot about the CWG books until now. And I totally forgot how I used to view God at the time I first came across these books. |
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03-03-2007, 07:33 PM
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| Wow. Wonderful post, thank you. Actually made me cry to see the stages of consciousness because I have seen and experienced them all so it rang so true and so warming to my soul, it brought me some peace. I spend most of my life in stage 4/5 but I have been thrown into 6 and 7 many times and just as you say, no matter how much you try and put it into words it can never be expressed. Words only cheapen it and cause it to lose value. It cannot be named but you cry out to find others who have seen what you have and will know by your words. At this point though...you are crying out to yourself and you KNOW that but still you must experience. If you want to know God just open your eyes...then close them, look in the mirror, talk to a friend, sit under a tree....you are knowing God. |
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03-03-2007, 07:43 PM
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03-04-2007, 01:19 AM
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Here's a page full of links on kinesiology, including self-testing: kinesiology resources/links However, it shouldn't be too hard to tell how far along you're progressing, by comparing your overall circumstances, lifestyle, and attitude to the charts/stages described in the above posts. I've linked the map of consciousness here again for convenience: Your Advancement toward Enlightenment - Power vs Force Hope it helps! |
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03-04-2007, 03:45 AM
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| Thanks for the links. In the chart the top has "Self Is Enlightenment 700-1000 Ineffable Pure Consciousness" My view of God is that I am God, as I have seen this in visions so I am enlightened? I would never call myself enlightened atleast not at this point. How exactly do I use that chart? |
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03-04-2007, 07:10 AM
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| You kind of average it out and see where you normally are. While visions can show you the next step in raising consciousness, they are temporary and that state must eventually become permanent (or rather, the lower levels of consciousness are transcended and given up/surrendered) before true enlightenment occurs. Here's a further breakdown of the states, for reference (also, to see what levels of enlightenment your visions/understandings were at): God/Divinity (Unmanifest): Infinity God/Divinity (Manifest): Infinity "I" as Essence of Creation: 1250 "I" of Ultimate Reality: 1000+ Christ, Buddhahood, Krishna, Brahman (at-oneness with God Manifest and Unmanifest): 1000+ Avatar: 985 Allness: 855 God (Self) as Logos: 850 Self as Beyond Existence or Nonexistence: 850 Oneness: 850 Nothingness:850 Reality as Consciousness: 850 Reality as Awareness: 850 Omniscience: 850 Omnipresence: 850 Omnipotence: 850 Void: 850 Seeing into one's 'self-nature': 845 Teacher of enlightenment: 800 Arhat: 800 "I" / Self -- Divinity as Allness (Beatiific, Vision): 750 Sage -- Self as God Manifest: 740 Self as Existence: 680 "I Am" (Awareness of the "I" as beingness or is-ness"): 650 Reality as witness/observer: 600 Enlightenment (bliss replaced by peace, stillness, and silence): 600 Bliss ("Sat-chit-ananda"): 575+ Ecstasy: 575 Sainthood (very close to enlightenment): 575 Unconditional love: 540 Last edited by ethereal : 03-04-2007 at 07:12 AM. |
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03-04-2007, 07:19 AM
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| Ah I love David Hawkins. Science is always seen as the enemy of religion with Evolutionists battling Creationists, but I've always believed that they would combine someday, and Hawkins has literally built the bridge. I also agree with what Joe said earlier, I don't think enlightenment happens all at once. It certainly can happen all at once, but it doesn't "stick" if it happens all at once and usually the individual will dip back down to their standard level of consciousness. True enlightment is a gradual progression so that your default level is higher and higher, which also makes it easier and easier to jump to those higher levels.
__________________ "I just kind of expected to win" - Pete Sampras |
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03-04-2007, 07:41 AM
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Lallymac< |