The origin of the universe

[Zach]

I hope this is the correct forum to post this in, as it says "religion" in the description, but if it's not, please move it.

I was just wondering what everyone around here believes concerning the origins of the universe. Being a creationist myself, I obviously believe that the universe is just too complex and beautiful to have just been spontaneously made or evolved over billions of years, and was created by a higher being.

I'm interested in this kind of thing, and I like to know other people's views and opinions on the matter.

[The Universal Call]

I truly apologize for not bringing much to this topic more than a mere link, I am a bit busy and that link will tell you more of my own beliefs than I can possibly do in the same amount of time:

Why does a Universe exist? A journey beyond nothing.

I will most probably tip in on your thread later with a lot more insights. I'm glad you made this thread, this topic needs to be discussed, and I honestly want to learn more on the subject.

[Nico Kempe]

I myself don't really believe in a higher being, well not in the form of a separate entity.
I believe in the higher being in the way of being itself. We all are, and there is only being, to be. One cannot not be because the not being itself is a form of being..)

Anyway, I don't think some entity created all this, because I don't believe in a separate God-like entity but I believe we all are gods. We all "are", we all consist of that energy, thesame energy everything consists of.

If you believe in something like a God who has created this all, then when/how is that God created?
I think you're getting to the problem of infinity here. We humans just cannot grasp infinity, yet we go into infinity with what we'd like to know.

How and why the universe/multiverse got so infinetly complex and beautiful I don't know, but then I as a human could probably not possibly ever understand that either.
I think this is one of the points where religion offers relief, because it can give us answers to our infinite infinity questions so that we don't go crazy wondering..

Science answers how, religion answers why.

(yet since I don't really believe in that God part, I guess my why questions remain unanswered. But that is perfectly fine too.)

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Zach

I obviously believe that the universe is just too complex and beautiful to have just been spontaneously made or evolved over billions of years, and was created by a higher being.

I think about this frequently. I have problems believing in a "creator" because it adds complexity which makes the question more difficult to fully answer (if the creator created everything, then who created the creator?). Edit: someone already stated this, I was slow articulating my thoughts and two people finished their posts in the time it took me to write mine.

I always get stuck with the concept of time, that seems to be the crux for me. If there was a beginning of time at X, what was there at 1 second before X. (This is also the mathematical proof of the non-existence of a minimal or maximal integer. I just naively applied it to time.) Currently, "nothing" does not exist anywhere in our universe, so it's hard to imagine nothing existing before time.

Perhaps the universe is eternal. This is the easiest conclusion, but not a very satisfying one.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Zach

I obviously believe that the universe is just too complex and beautiful to have just been spontaneously made or evolved over billions of years, and was created by a higher being.

A problem that isn't typically mentioned is how a higher being could have screwed up so badly in making the universe. There's nothing obvious about your belief; it doesn't follow from being a creationist, though it's certainly common.

A question for you: what is complexity, and what is beauty? Feel free to start another thread on the topic.

Originally Posted by Nico Kempe

Anyway, I don't think some entity created all this, because I don't believe in a separate God-like entity but I believe we all are gods. We all "are", we all consist of that energy, thesame energy everything consists of.

I agree with the general sentiment; I dislike the dichotomy of God/Human, and prefer to conceive of human beings as theomorphic.

Originally Posted by Nico Kempe

Science answers how, religion answers why.

Correct, but a niggling point is the detail of the question. Religion answers "Why should I do what I do?". That's an extremely important distinction, and one that keeps getting missed.

[Zach]

Originally Posted by Nico Kempe

Anyway, I don't think some entity created all this, because I don't believe in a separate God-like entity but I believe we all are gods. We all "are", we all consist of that energy, thesame energy everything consists of.

If you believe in something like a God who has created this all, then when/how is that God created?
I think you're getting to the problem of infinity here. We humans just cannot grasp infinity, yet we go into infinity with what we'd like to know.

Interesting view. You just said that we all "are", we are part of an energy network that has always existed, and will exist forever, correct?

The thing about God is, he "is, was, and always will be." He wasn't "created", but has simply "existed", similarly as "energy" has always existed. Therefore, in my opinion, it's just as easy for me to believe in God as it would be for you to believe in an eternal energy that flows among us, the tree, animals, etc. It's impossible for humans to know how God truly works, because we are mortal and unable to grasp the concept of infinity, of a being.

I'm just curious, though, in your beliefs, if we are all gods, why has humanity been on an endless cycle of being born, living, and then dying, for thousands (or millions or billions) of years? Why hasn't anyone been able to grasp immortality yet?

Once more, how did life become so complex if no intelligence was behind it? Why is the human body so complicated, yet it runs in perfection and harmony? Why are so many creatures and plants so gorgeous if it happened by chance?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Zach

The thing about God is, he "is, was, and always will be." He wasn't "created", but has simply "existed", similarly as "energy" has always existed.

So, God is energy and energy is God? Are you saying God is just the anthropomorphism of energy?

Therefore, in my opinion, it's just as easy for me to believe in God as it would be for you to believe in an eternal energy that flows among us, the tree, animals, etc. It's impossible for humans to know how God truly works, because we are mortal and unable to grasp the concept of infinity, of a being.

This is where theistic religion usually loses me. Using "energy" here instead of God is easier to grasp. Otherwise, we have the question of which god (Zeus, an Abrahamic God, etc.)

I'm just curious, though, in your beliefs, if we are all gods, why has humanity been on an endless cycle of being born, living, and then dying, for thousands (or millions or billions) of years? Why hasn't anyone been able to grasp immortality yet?

How do you know that nobody has? What happens to consciousness after death?

Once more, how did life become so complex if no intelligence was behind it? Why is the human body so complicated, yet it runs in perfection and harmony? Why are so many creatures and plants so gorgeous if it happened by chance?

I don't think anyone is arguing this happened by chance. Natural selection is not by chance and neither would the "energy" approach be by chance.

[Nico Kempe]

Those are though questions, and probably questions I, nor probably any other human, can really answer.

But let's put it in another perspective. Let's say God does, did, and will exist, and he/she/it created all this astoundingly beautiful things.
Then how did this God came to be? Sure, the answer is that he always has been, but then still, how can there be a God that is so complex, so refined and beautiful minded it is beyond our reach to understand?

I read about deep meditation and reaching to experience being itself. Being is being one with that energy.
Right now it seems that for a certain part everybody is not fully attached to that energy, but more likely it's just our ego's that separate us.
If I were fully consciously one with being, without the egoic mind, I probably wouldn't exist as a human at all.

About the intelect, if we humans have intelect, and we all are part of that ever present energy, wouldn't that energy have all the knowledge and intelect to ever exist?

[elainevdw]

What I think is more important than our beliefs about the origins of the universe are how they affect the way we treat our world and its inhabitants.

One flaw of belief structures that focus on beginning and end of a finite universe and in heaven and hell is that they lend themselves to hostility and aggression while here. If the world is going to be destroyed by fire anyway, why bother being ecosensitive? If you're only going to spend a small amount of time here and the rest of eternity in the afterlife, why bother accomplishing anything here that isn't directly related to your admittance into the best afterlife, or for your own comfort in this life?

If you believe that the universe has always been, that life is reincarnated, that all energy is one -- you have more incentive to treat the world and its inhabitants with all compassion and respect.

People argue about the answer of how the universe came to be, which side is right, which side is wrong. However, not so many people argue about what each side means.

[Nico Kempe]

Very good point Elaine.
It's a good thing we have a forum like this and that in general more and more people seem to get increasingly conscious.
There is still hope for the, err, 'future now'.

As Adam said in a different thread, "let's start cleaning up the mess".

[Adam]

It seems I'm getting popular, if I'm already being quoted.

I have a very thought-out explanation for why the universe exists... It doesn't even begin to cover *how* it exists, though.

The one thing that I know for certain is that I am conscious. From that simple fact, I can infer the reason why everything has happened to me. It still doesn't explain how it happened.

As far as a creation event, well, I have a hard time with it on both sides of the debate... Humans were made in "God's" image, and humans evolve... We are male and female, some born as both... Just as we have cells that make up our whole, Divinity has egos... Neither the chicken nor the egg came first: they evolved together.

Maybe my thoughts are too controversial. I blame it on thinking of singularities too long, both the big-bang and black holes. One thing that I do know, is that the infinite is found as much in the small as it is in the large.

[songwriter]

I think time is a circular thing, it has no beginning and no end. (A Trip around the Round Arrow Of Time, I call it) Just like the surface of Earth. Or the four dimensional universe. Therefore all the things would happen again and again, like in the Bible quote. "All that has happened has happened before and will happen again..." etc. We're like in a time-space continuum bubble. Now you could ask me... and what's outside the bubble? That's other realm or so... now what our consciousness can perceive.

[RandomJohn]

There is the idea, which I read in a recent issue of New Scientist, that the universe expands and contracts as a cycle, like many Big Bangs. There is even speculation that the laws of physics change a little bit each time.

Fascinating stuff to contemplate.

[TechnoGuyRob]

I would provide a long, drawn-out explanation, but suffice to say, if you are concerned with the formation of space and time as we know it, there is no doubt that it originated as is described by the Big Bang Theory.

The theory predicted a cosmic microwave background radiation spectrum (CMB) which was identical to the experimental results from the COBE project. In fact, the theory was so accurate that on the graph plotting the experimental results superimposed on the theoretically predicted CMB curve, the errors were so insignificant that it was impossible to distinguish the experimentally derived curved from the theoretical curve. The theory predicted our measurement exactly.

[november]

We created the universe.

And, by "we", I mean us.

[AndyMartin]

Originally Posted by TechnoGuyRob

I would provide a long, drawn-out explanation, but suffice to say, if you are concerned with the formation of space and time as we know it, there is no doubt that it originated as is described by the Big Bang Theory.

But the Big Bang Theory describes a mechanism, not causation; not an origin. There is very compelling evidence for the fact that it happened, but nothing tells us why. If it's a one-shot event, what caused it? If it's cyclical, as the article mentioned by RandomJohn proposes, then what is the universe that it's nature is to do so?

I see a lot of answers that are really just unasked questions in disguise. I only accept any means of finding truth as far as it continues to question. Most traditions cease to ask questions once their canonized methods stop yielding answers. How boring.

So here's what I think. The universe IS. It is its nature to be; how or what are transient questions. Quantum physics implies that absent observation, energy lacks expressed properties, that it posseses only the potential to be until placed under conditions of observation. That points towards awareness as the origin of the universe as we know it; that the universe is simply a manifestation of consciousness' intention for place.

As we are consciousness in the universe, it can be believed that it was our intention (likely in combination with others) for place that caused the forces that created the universe to be set into action. As it is the nature of all things observed in the universe thus far to change, it can be assumed such is the nature of the universe. If that is the case, we can assume that the next state of the universe will likewise be determined and set into motion by our intention.

Either that or the universe was sneezed out of the nose of of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure and we should all fear the coming of the Great White Hanky.

[Radical]

There has to no doubt be some scientific explanation to this question, and the Big Bang Theory is our current best guess. However, it still has many flaws, such as what created the matter for the big bang? One day our scientific knowledge may have advanced enough to answer this question conclusively.

[Nico Kempe]

Originally Posted by Radical

There has to no doubt be some scientific explanation to this question, and the Big Bang Theory is our current best guess. However, it still has many flaws, such as what created the matter for the big bang? One day our scientific knowledge may have advanced enough to answer this question conclusively.

..after which the next question comes..
infinite curiosity, what a nice feature of humans

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Radical

There has to no doubt be some scientific explanation to this question, and the Big Bang Theory is our current best guess. However, it still has many flaws, such as what created the matter for the big bang? One day our scientific knowledge may have advanced enough to answer this question conclusively.

The matter of the big bang came... from the matter of the universe joined together back. Then the big bang explodes till the universe expands then starts to go back again, etc.

And what happened before the... the same cycle. Imagine that travel in Time would like traveling in the surface of Earth, if you go forward so much you'll end in the same point that you have started. There's no end and no beginning.

My opinion, of course.

[The Universal Call]

What is this that I read? I gave you a link before yet no one seem to have read it. Better yourself people. It feels like my opinion on this subject was utterly ignored, I would expect more from the Steve Pavlina forums.

Now, let's go through this topic, I will begin by quoting myself:

Originally Posted by The Universal Call

Why does a Universe exist? A journey beyond nothing.

I will most probably tip in on your thread later with a lot more insights. I'm glad you made this thread, this topic needs to be discussed, and I honestly want to learn more on the subject.

This site has been so valuable to me I chose to do a 4-page assignment on it, summing up all necessary parts and adding a few arguments myself. If I can put myself to translating it someday I will post it here, the 4-page length concerns me however.

If you do but one thing this day, then READ THIS LINK. I will say that again: READ THIS LINK: Why does a Universe exist? A journey beyond nothing. Go. Yes, now. Yes! Go, read it, now!

Originally Posted by Nico Kempe

One cannot not be because the not being itself is a form of being..)

You mean that one can not "not exist" because "nonexistence" can not be. Agreed, and this is explained in THOROUGH detail in above mentioned link. Read... read now.

Originally Posted by Nico Kempe

If you believe in something like a God who has created this all, then when/how is that God created?
I think you're getting to the problem of infinity here. We humans just cannot grasp infinity, yet we go into infinity with what we'd like to know.

It's true that in some sense we might just never grasp infinity, everything we humans have experienced have been finite, so we have nothing to compare with, even though we make good attempts on such. We humans can not maybe grasp infinity, but the biggest mistake made by people is that they won't let themselves accept infinity, this is of negative nature to us all.

Originally Posted by Zach

The thing about God is, he "is, was, and always will be." He wasn't "created", but has simply "existed", similarly as "energy" has always existed. Therefore, in my opinion, it's just as easy for me to believe in God as it would be for you to believe in an eternal energy that flows among us, the tree, animals, etc. It's impossible for humans to know how God truly works, because we are mortal and unable to grasp the concept of infinity, of a being.

Yes, it is just as simple for you to believe that, given. But whilst we have proof of the existence of the universe and "energy" (or as Paulo Coelho would express himself: "The Universe is made of love", okey, that might not be his correct words, but I digress, he's very profound anyway ) we don't have any proof of "God"'s existence, do we? Given, you could call the universe for "the eternal and almighty God" but you could as easily call God for "the infinity universe". See the point?

Originally Posted by Zach

Once more, how did life become so complex if no intelligence was behind it? Why is the human body so complicated, yet it runs in perfection and harmony? Why are so many creatures and plants so gorgeous if it happened by chance?

Intelligence?

As explained in my provided link the universe had no other option BUT to exist, for the "why?" on that part, read the link. What is intelligence? Or more specifically, what _was_ intelligence? Today we humans compare ourselves to other mammals and animals, and speak of intelligence, but as given in Steve Pavlina's 16th podcast, what can we really prove? We can prove our own existence (i.e., "mine", not "yours"/"others"), we can not prove that a dog is thinking, we can not prove a tree has a conscious awareness of itself and its surroundings, in fact, there is very little we can prove. Back "then", what was intelligence? It might have been a being, like you or me, with intelligence, indeed, but it could also be something unexplicible - it could be the tree, which to us have no "intelligence". As far as we are concerned this "God/Universe/whatever" might just have been anything else, without a proven conscious awareness, or intelligence. We don't know if that piece of paper has an intelligence, we assume it don't, but we can't prove it. That piece of paper might just be the same consciousness which "created" the universe, prove it otherwise.

The force which created the universe (once again, call it whatever you want) might have had intelligence, it might not have had, we don't know. As far as we are concerned the universe and it's "complex life" (as you describe it) might just have been an unconscious being going on "automatic", without intelligence, without thought, just doing what the universe had to do - exist.

Zach, you also speak of the beauty of life, the complexity which is found all around us. Given my earlier arguments (which are not to degrade your belief, trust me) let's continue them in the same direction. What is beauty? What is complexity? I say, this complexity, and this beauty - had to exist. Life has no other alternative than to blossom (as explained in my link... once again...). Why didn't ugly life blossom you ask (I hope you're not)? Change perspective for a second - can you say that life is complex and beautiful just because (your) human senses say so? To a martian your sense of complexity might just be their sense of simplicity, to a zarachnoid your sense of beauty might just be their sense of ugliness. This isn't proving my case much, "it is in the eyes of the beholder", right? They say you have to "experience having little in order to appreciate (and understand) having much", now imagine in a far away land. In this land there are only the colors of red and blue, there are no "attractive women" - but these are equivalent with rocks, in this land; there is only simplicity. From this land's point of view, from its perspective: what is beautiful? Why, someone say: "I find blue very beautiful", whilst someone else says: "No, definitely red, I have never seen such a beautiful color in my life, beauty is in red." What is attractive?, you ask them. "That blue rock there is very attractive, I think I am going to ask it out later." Oh, and how are your inner organs and such, got everything fixed, you healthy? *The inhabitant replies you and explains with most vivid detail how they are and tells you how their body is constructed in such a manor which is equivalent of your own complexity construction x 100* That isn't simplistical!, you say, out of pure shock of hearing this. "What?", the inhabitant inquires. "Compared to our neighbours we are but only a little bug to them", it explains.

Have I gone too far in explaining my point? Look back upon your own situation now, who are we to say that we are complex, that we are beautiful? Did it really take an intelligence to create us, or are we just as simple as the air which surrounded the inhabitant above?

Originally Posted by TechnoGuyRob

I would provide a long, drawn-out explanation, but suffice to say, if you are concerned with the formation of space and time as we know it, there is no doubt that it originated as is described by the Big Bang Theory.

I don't disagree with how the Big Bang might have shaped our universe, I do disagree however how it is "the origin of the universe". Reading my link should give some insight to you. Actually, there is so much to cover about the link I have provided, I have just been given a bit more inspiration about doing that "translation of mine". Until then, draw your own conclusions and please give any feedback to the link. I think, with my belief about the origin of the universe, the universe is infinite, has always existed, and will always exist. The Big Bang theory has a few flaws, as mentioned earlier by [someone], but it could very well have have provided the universe with all the galaxies we have today.

As goes for all you others on this thread as well, if you have some criticism, comments, reflections, feedback, on my provided link, which I hope I have made it clear for you to read (I am actually bluntly forcing you). I will be happy to discuss it further, and it will not surprise me even one bit if one of you find a flaw/several flaws in this theory, it will be a pleasant read for me. As stated earlier, I want to learn more and more about this subject, every realization is a good realization.

[Patricia]

Universal Call, I haven't read your text yet (I will though), but I'd like to make some comments:

Originally Posted by The Universal Call

Zach, you also speak of the beauty of life, the complexity which is found all around us. Given my earlier arguments (which are not to degrade your belief, trust me) let's continue them in the same direction. What is beauty? What is complexity?

I had the very same thought when I read it.

Originally Posted by The Universal Call

Change perspective for a second - can you say that life is complex and beautiful just because (your) human senses say so? To a martian your sense of complexity might just be their sense of simplicity, to a zarachnoid your sense of beauty might just be their sense of ugliness. This isn't proving my case much, "it is in the eyes of the beholder", right?

I know this will go a little off topic here - and maybe we should have a separate topic for this, but here's a quick thought: not only beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but also our sense of beauty and what we perceive as beautiful can (and probably is) a result of evolutionary processes. Interestingly enough, just earlier today I read an article on a blog (the owner of the blog is a member of this forum) making reference to a study that found that "Handsome men have better semen". I have heard an infinite number of times in my life people explaining or justifying their belief in the existence of God by using this argument: "Look around us, so much beauty and perfection, there must have been a God that created all of this". While this explanation in enough for many people, and I do respect that, it is not even close to enough for me. I think that complexity, beauty, perfection can all be explained by theories of evolution. Survival of the fittest.

---

I'm glad someone created this topic about the Origin of the universe. It drives me crazy to think about this, I can't wait to read other opinions. It's true, we simply can't grasp the concept of infinity. Both the time and space perspectives get me thinking (what and when - what was the point of origin and what was there before that). And that's where I agree with what Niko says: "I think this is one of the points where religion offers relief, because it can give us answers to our infinite infinity questions so that we don't go crazy wondering.." No matter how much we think about it, we'll always end up asking "what was the source of the point or origin and what was there before that?" - at least until someone can come up with another paradigm. Everything we know in our physical experience has a physical limit (objects, our bodies, the earth, etc...), so like someone said, we have nothing that offers basis for comparison. And this is very frustrating.

Sorry I didn't provide much useful information or opinions about the origin of the universe here, like most people I have more questions than answers.

[Zach]

You have some good points. Of course we puny humans may appear to other "higher" alien races as nothing but simple and maybe ugly. But, just as someone said that there's no "proof" of God existing, there also is no "proof" of the existence of alien races, life after death (an eternal consciousness), or a dozen other things. What is proof? How can you define "proof"?

If you say that the universe just exists "because it had no choice", then you're saying that humans are the (ongoing) result of billions, trillions, quadrillions (whatever) years of try-and-fail evolution, and those that "adapted" to their environment the best survived and those that didn't adapt died, thus the natural selection theory and survival of the fittest. Am I right?

There's one problem with this theory. Creatures don't adapt to their environment, they live where their physical characteristics allow them. You can't take a herd of elephants and drop them in Antarctica and wait a few million years and come back to find wooly mammoths. Animals do not change their outward appearance to conform to their environment. Polar bears live in the arctic because they have been built to.

If evolution is true, why aren't there any "middle" species in existence? No more evolving species? Were they just eliminated? Why aren't there any remains, at all? Or just haven't scientists found them yet?

One more thing...look, for example, at the human reproductive system. How two haploid cells can join together and 9 months later produce another life. Is this just a result of millions of years of evolution? How did the early, early humanoids reproduce, if they did not have the "sophisticated" reproductive systems we have today? Certainly not by binary fission.. Or, did the early humanoid body somehow "decide" that it would need an efficient reproductive system in order to keep the population growing?

Please correct me if I'm wrong..I'm still taking Biology classes

[Paul C]

This thread drew my attention very quickly! Enjoying the conversation here greatly.

Many of my beleifs reflect what is being said here, although at the moment, I don't intend to type them all down.

Originally Posted by Zach

You have some good points. Of course we puny humans may appear to other "higher" alien races as nothing but simple and maybe ugly. But, just as someone said that there's no "proof" of God existing, there also is no "proof" of the existence of alien races, life after death (an eternal consciousness), or a dozen other things. What is proof? How can you define "proof"?

Yes, this I agree with. Good to see a few people put in down in words.

Originally Posted by Zach

Animals do not change their outward appearance to conform to their environment.

Who said that evolution ever stopped? The beleif goes that it takes thousands/millions/billions of years for a creature to evolve from one form to the next, so, to a purely human perception it would appear that no evolution is taking place at all. Even if you only observed one species of creature for an entire lifetime, lifetimes even!

Also, if evolution is still a constant, evolution may also be observable in creatures throughout even a few generations. Not just in shape or ability of the body, but of the mind, especially in the human race.

Originally Posted by Zach

Or, did the early humanoid body somehow "decide" that it would need an efficient reproductive system in order to keep the population growing?

Why not? People can make huge transformative changes to their minds and their bodies (through application of things learnt to alter the bodies health level, for example) through education and reptition. To take it one step further would be to will the body to change/evolve with direct mental intent. May happen.

[The Universal Call]

Originally Posted by Zach

You have some good points. Of course we puny humans may appear to other "higher" alien races as nothing but simple and maybe ugly. But, just as someone said that there's no "proof" of God existing, there also is no "proof" of the existence of alien races, life after death (an eternal consciousness), or a dozen other things. What is proof? How can you define "proof"?

If you say that the universe just exists "because it had no choice", then you're saying that humans are the (ongoing) result of billions, trillions, quadrillions (whatever) years of try-and-fail evolution, and those that "adapted" to their environment the best survived and those that didn't adapt died, thus the natural selection theory and survival of the fittest. Am I right?

(Underlined note: Actually I think it was me who wrote that.)

Your first paragraph: Good observation. I will try and answer your post, and this will also relate to what other people talked about the "Big Bang" theory, but I shall not quote them since I am horrified and utterly disgusted by the school's computer, writing anything takes double the time here.

Let me begin (now maybe you understood this but I will elucidate so that no other users get confused) by stressing to you my purpose in writing the "alien story"; it was not to point out any alien races. And it was not _just_ about how looking through an alien's perspective about life and beauty may change yours, but only to draw a parallel so we can distinguish between how we should be thinking about these questions at hand (What is complexity? What is beauty?), and how it may be seen as foolish to try and answer them from our perspective alone. As Paul C so lovely wrote about evolution: "Who said that evolution ever stopped? The beleif goes that it takes thousands/millions/billions of years for a creature to evolve from one form to the next, so, to a purely human perception it would appear that no evolution is taking place at all. Even if you only observed one species of creature for an entire lifetime, lifetimes even!" My point exactly, what perspective are we choosing and how might it limit our view on the universe?

Precisely, we can not prove God, we can not prove alien races, we can not prove that a replica of Elton John is living on a yellow little island far far away wailing. We can not prove their non-existence either... Tricky case actually... Your God theory is just as valid as any other theory, if it cannot be proven to be wrong so to say, and this is one of the reasons why I find the Big Bang theory to be so amusing: They speak about the size of the universe, they speak of how it is expanding, they speak of how a tiny little dot got to existence out from, quite frankly, nothing. Now, I have not been tutored in this subject, but I think this is a fair idea of how the BB'ers are thinking about it. What's ironic is: they can not prove that nothing existed before the Big Bang (slowly destroying their theory about time). They can not prove that the universe is finite, since they have never been to the far corners of the universe to prove that it has a limit, is it really valid to say that the universe is expanding because of an explosion? How about the galaxies and the stars just being moved away from each other due to the explosion; since we do not know if the universe is finite or infinite (the latter which I think it should be) what are we to say that it must be this or that way? As far as we are concerned nothing might be moving, and will never move, a quanuntrabillion (if only the word existed...) miles away from here. We will never be able to find out that, so what we are doing is that we are assuming that since the universe seem to be expanding: "all the universe MUST be expanding, and it just MUST be finite". Ever since I heard Steve Pavlina's 16th podcast, believe me, I got a whole other view on our own conscious and how we humans "assume" it is, without having any "proof". As far as we are concerned we know about nothing about time or space, only that the universe... IS. As I said before Zach; good observation. Due to the - finite, infinite? timeless, not timeless? universe; any theory is a valid theory. We can prove what have effected Earth, hurricanes, the C14-method; many things tell us. But we can not prove what _created_ the universe, we have not much to tell us about its story since: It might have had a beginning (like the BB theory tells us), but it might just as well be timeless, having no end and no beginning (my link will ONCE AGAIN, if only you read it; explain how this can be), the universe might be finite (BB), but it might just as well be infinite - given this: What alternatives and what theories might fit into the origin of the universe then? Theoretically - any theory! I myself find the Big Bang theory very likely, I however resent the idea that the Big Bang MUST have been the origin of the universe, but I do however think that the Big Bang was the cause of the billion of galaxies we have today, in THIS part of the universe. How come? Well, given my arguments earlier; must there only be one Big Bang? Must it have created "time and space"? To me, it hasn't, it is not the origin of the universe, the Big Bang does however sound like it could be a big help in creating the universe as we see it today.

Hope you got that point.

Second paragraph:
I am not as teached in the "natural selection and survival of the fittest" as many others here seem to be, due to this I will not comment on this. However, allow me to elucidate: I did not say that "you're saying that humans are the (ongoing) result of billions, trillions, quadrillions (whatever) years of try-and-fail evolution". Most likely a Big Bang did happen, 13 billion years ago, and in the end allowing the life of Earth to blossom. (What I was trying to say before was that the Big Bang was not the origin of the universe, I'm sorry if this was not made clear.) Whatever infinite events that might have happened _before_ the Big Bang was never my interest, but that we humans evolved after the Big Bang due to the [insert natural selection, etc., theory here].

[Andrew Brunelle]

The universe is something we're just now learning about and I feel like right now is not the right time to talk about it as we really don't know that much about it. We know it exists and we have a feeling it's expanding, which will probably ease the traffic. But we are not sure about many things. Sure, the Big Bang theory might work for you and it's a pretty valid theory, but like one of the posters here, I agree that it did not completely create the universe. There had to be something else there before. But then something else had to have triggered the start of the universe. At least we think so. But then again, I'm not sure. Because without someone to witness the beginning of the universe or something at least, there is no independent observer, so there really is no way to know for sure.

But we are aware of more and more every day and that's good. We know our place, but we still don't know why. Some people use religion, others use science, but even though science explains the how, it doesn't explain the why. And religion doens't explain the how very well, IMO. So it's a paradox that we could spend generations trying to figure out, but it's almost as if it would be futile because I'm not even sure if there's an answer out there. And if there is, I'm sure it will take years and years to find it. But it is very interesting stuff to talk about.

But since this is a "subjective reality," maybe the universe is exactly what we believe it to be and by thinking thee thoughts, we're creating this gigantic, insurmountable system of multiple galaxies, all which make us see how insignificant we are. Maybe we're the ones who created this thing and that's the only reason that it's there. I don't know, I don't do atronomy.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by Matt

...

I always get stuck with the concept of time, that seems to be the crux for me. If there was a beginning of time at X, what was there at 1 second before X. (This is also the mathematical proof of the non-existence of a minimal or maximal integer. I just naively applied it to time.) Currently, "nothing" does not exist anywhere in our universe, so it's hard to imagine nothing existing before time.

Perhaps the universe is eternal. This is the easiest conclusion, but not a very satisfying one.

Matt - Just came across your post after replying to another about phyics and metaphysics, where I also reposted something I wrote that talks specifically about time a while back somewhere else on the Net (where I recieved absolutely no helpful feedback).

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what you think about it, I think it relates pretty directly to what you're talking about: The Elegant Universe

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

A problem that isn't typically mentioned is how a higher being could have screwed up so badly in making the universe.

A better question is "do you have free will". If the answer is yes, better to ask how you could have possibly contributed to screwing things up, and to what extent. If the answer is no, it won't matter much anyway since you have no control over how you react to this question

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by The Universal Call

Precisely, we can not prove God, we can not prove alien races, we can not prove that a replica of Elton John is living on a yellow little island far far away wailing. We can not prove their non-existence either... Tricky case actually...

I think you and others here would benefit from reading Descartes' Meditations. He takes everything back to the nubs and says "what do I KNOW FOR SURE is real and correct" (answer: just my conciousness) and extrapolates out from there. It's very logical and was a real "aha" moment for me when I read them. I'm not going to color your view of these by telling you what I believed when I finished reading them, but I'll just say that my beliefs were drastically different when I ended than when I started. Within the span of a couple hours.

Anyway, if you're interested you can read them at Descartes' Meditations Home Page. It's one of the most important things I've ever read.

[The Universal Call]

I will take into account what you have said jdiddy, that is, I will try and read that link, like I expect people to read mine. It was to me, what this link seems to have been for you - an eye-opener. As for your triple-posting: I do not agree on it. I would let a double-post pass, but posting three times instead of just editing your first post, when NO ONE else have posted after you - is plain unnecessary. I hope you get my point. And this is not all that is unnecessary - I would not have noticed this and posted about it unless fontduroy would have added his "two cents", two rusty and outdated cents. fontduroy: You added no value to the thread, no insights, no actual opinion on the topic at hand. This thread was made to discuss the origin of the universe, you don't even seem to try - you only give a halfhearted joke. Weird and unnecessary input like that of yours would be a serious offense from where I come from and I hope you will better yourself. Don't get me too harshly, but "if you don't have anything to say; don't say it". With that said: I am looking forward on your opinions on the origin of the universe.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by The Universal Call

I will take into account what you have said jdiddy, that is, I will try and read that link, like I expect people to read mine. It was to me, what this link seems to have been for you - an eye-opener. As for your triple-posting: I do not agree on it. I would let a double-post pass, but posting three times instead of just editing your first post, when NO ONE else have posted after you - is plain unnecessary. I hope you get my point. And this is not all that is unnecessary - I would not have noticed this and posted about it unless fontduroy would have added his "two cents", two rusty and outdated cents. fontduroy: You added no value to the thread, no insights, no actual opinion on the topic at hand. This thread was made to discuss the origin of the universe, you don't even seem to try - you only give a halfhearted joke. Weird and unnecessary input like that of yours would be a serious offense from where I come from and I hope you will better yourself. Don't get me too harshly, but "if you don't have anything to say; don't say it". With that said: I am looking forward on your opinions on the origin of the universe.

Dude, double and triple-posting is when you post the EXACT SAME THING multiple times to different places. I just found the thread yesterday and I was reading through the posts responding to ones of interest to me. And I did not copy and paste the respones, they were different responses to different ideas from different people. What is my allowance of posts per day, please do tell?

Also humor is an important part of life, you need to give people like fontduroy a chance before you jump on them. Loosen up or you're going to drive any free-flowing discussion from this forum.