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| Spirituality, Consciousness, & Awareness Spirituality, beliefs, the nature of reality, consciousness, awareness, metaphysics, truth, philosophy, religion |
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10-29-2009, 07:34 AM
| #1 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
  |  Christianity debate (for and against both invited)
i've noticed in a lot of threads where the original topic involved Christianity, the thread either runs the risk of derailment or is totally derailed by folks who either have trouble with Christianity/Christians or those who want to show support for Christianity/Christians. i admit this is a very broad topic, but i figured it may help to create a place specifically for these ideas. where do you stand on this issue and why? do you believe Christianity does more good than harm or more harm than good? why do you believe as you do regarding the goodness or harmfulness? if you are not a Christian and have trouble with some aspects of Christianity or those followers you've come across in your life experience, here is a place to discuss it. and if you are a Christian and you feel frustrated that people jump to conclusions when they learn this about you, here is a place to talk about that as well. and Christians are welcome to share what you may have trouble with regarding some aspects of Christianity or the followers you've come across. folks, please be civil and respectful. we all know what is true of one person is not true of everyone (other than the fact that we are humans, we breathe air, etc.). if you aren't sure you totally understand a post, please ask for clarification before you assume what the person was getting at. i'll do my best, if or when i post here, to follow these same guidelines. i'd prefer this not be a place to quote scripture as there are already threads for that. if that's your goal and you don't like the existing threads, you can start a new one for scripture if you like. i'm asking for you to refrain from adding scripture-only posts because i honestly don't think it fits the topic. this is intended to be a thread about the belief system known as Christianity and those who choose to follow it, not a way to demonstrate one's level of faith through scripture. you can bring up ideas from scriptures in your own words if you think it fits a line of thinking, but simply citing scripture does not seem to fit with the idea for this thread. that said, it's probably okay to use scripture as examples of a point as long as it doesn't go overboard. (the idea is to invite critical thinking, analysis, etc., not only quotes from existing material.) i'm hoping there will be some healing by doing this. my goal is definitely not to create more animosity than there already was. i'm hoping those who participate here may walk away (or, er, click away) with greater understanding of the opposing viewpoint than they had before. maybe some folks will also be able to release some residual emotional stuff as well, and who knows, maybe there will be some new followers by the time this thread is petered out. this website is for personal growth, and i think those on both sides of this issue could probably stand to grow a little in relation to it, myself included.  one more thing, those who ascribe to a Christian perspective can also use this thread to express anything you may feel about those who don't follow that path BUT i don't really mean things like 'they are all going to hell' - that's not what i'm talking about or inviting AT ALL. i don't mean things based on dogma or what is said in church, i mean things you have personally noticed about non-believers, like assumptions they often have about you, personally, or something along those lines. (yes i'm creating quite a few guidelines or even limitations for this thread.  i've learned from experience this type of topic can run away easily, so i'm simply doing my part to keep it on track and civil from the outset. )
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10-29-2009, 08:34 AM
| #2 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: I'm a traveler everywhere and nowhere.. currently in Denver.. where else?
Posts: 3,618
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I was raised by christians.. and if you haven't heard me say it sometimes I say I'm biased towards them  (whether that's still true is hard to say )Here's the truth on the matter the whole christian religion has good parts and bad parts.. it's just most of it was over shadowed with a lot of bad parts/ideas like (yes, this is a judgment or observation about things that are lack/negative based) 1. God should be put on a pedestal and we should worship him where as I like: We are equal to god/we are god 2. Hell/Judgment/Disconnection 3. Forgiveness.. you've probably heard me say it but I'll say it again.. "You can't do anything wrong" (just to clarify I'm thinking of forgiveness in a negative aspect.. like for example you steal "candy".. you don't need forgiveness for that, you don't even have to say sorry .. where as a positive aspect would be forgiving/letting go of someone cutting you off in traffic)So I know that christians can let's say be full on new agers and still be christians (cause after all that's just a LABEL) but some are so caught in the ideas of lack/judgment/disconnection that they'll never see their way out (the way there headed  ) and that's again another observation which may be proved wrong in the next 10 years as I understand the energy will be ramping up in a lot of ways..Incidentally this night I sat through a healing mostly done by christians to help heal people.. but I couldn't help feeling like invalidating their message just cause they seemed to do #1 a lot.. still I feel I did a good job of mostly validating it and I'm pretty sure I raised up my vibration too Last edited by themaster; 10-29-2009 at 08:38 AM. |
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10-30-2009, 03:31 AM
| #3 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
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thanks for the post themaster. i actually thought this thread would be of greater interest than it has so far seemed to be. go figure. i suppose that's what i get for jumping to a conclusion... like any belief system there are more affirming and less affirming aspects, especially if we remain rigid about it. i also have noticed how the Christians in my experience (i was raised around Christians as well, and was a churchgoer as a teenager) seem very wary and unreceptive of subjective reality, LoA, viewing divinity as balanced (and not just a patriarchal figure)... and some of the Christians i've been around get very hostile and defensive, or just stonewall, when i bring up some of my own personal difficulties. i have trouble with the hypocrisy... pretty much everyone i've ever spent significant time with, and including myself, is technically a hypocrite about some thing or another. but it has seemed more pronounced in this population - maybe the guidelines lead to a much larger shadow self(?). i do not like the perpetuation of ideas like sacrifice, and unconditional love that is really, apparently, conditional love. and i have a bit of a unique difficulty because one of my spirit guides has a Christian title, but that guide has made it clear to me that is just a title (well, the guide serves in the actual role but the energy is not limited to only Christian believers... not sure how to explain it). (in my opinion or understanding, angels and aliens/e.t.s of christ consciousness are the same thing said in different ways.) i do not like the pushiness of some evangelical endeavors, often it seems the person really doesn't care what the would-be-convert feels or thinks and is almost just running a script. very rarely have i seen the evangelical approach genuinely open, receptive, tailored to the individual being witnessed to and honoring if the individual is not interested. and i have trouble with dogmatism. but really, if it works for a person and that person is happy with that path, i will not come in and try to push them out of it (unless for example it is a good friend who is abusing crack... and even then technically it is that person's free will choice, self-determination, etc. and it is my attachment to the friendship that leads to action on my part, if that happens). i guess this is one reason i have trouble with the pushiness... i follow the golden rule quite a bit, so if i am honoring their choices i appreciate it if they honor mine. not every Christian does these things i have expressed here. i've met very nice, interesting, critical thinking, respectful Christians too! |
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10-30-2009, 07:49 AM
| #4 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Nong Seng
Posts: 3,975
| Quote:
Don't take it personal, and also wait a few days. Many members already gave their POV in the other threads, why repeat that here? Just thought of this one: if Jesus were alive today, which church (if any) would he join?  | |
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10-30-2009, 08:54 AM
| #5 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 347
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I don't believe in god, but consider most religions to be a good thing. Christianity keeps people respectful and makes them try to do good and have inner peace with themselves. Even if they are believing a lie it's serving a good. Kind of like a santa clause type of deal. |
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10-31-2009, 12:31 AM
| #7 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 3,977
| Quote:
Which suggests that Jesus would largely prefer a synagogue. | |
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10-31-2009, 05:15 AM
| #9 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12
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I went to Catholic school for 9 years, and had problems with it from a pretty early age. I became an atheist at about 12. One of the problems I had was that the Bible doesn't seem to me to be the inspired word of God. Wouldn't God want to include things like, say, a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem? A verifiable prediction about the future? ("And lo, 1,985 years after the birth of our saviour, there will cometh unto you a false prophet named 'Vanilla Ice'...") There was also one verse in the Bible that "It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." But at the school I went to, almost everyone had money; even the less well-off families would be considered fabulously wealthy to the bible's authors. So why did they believe in this religion that said they would go to hell? And what was wrong with being rich anyway? I could understand if you lied, cheated and stealed your way to wealth, but then isn't the problem lying, cheating and stealing? And what if someone's born poor or lower-class, but they have some rare ability which makes them well-off? Are they going to hell? Also, when I was older, I learned about the role the Catholic church played in the Holocaust, and how the Vatican spirited away people like Dr. Mengele along the Ratline to south america. That to me is disgusting beyond the pale. I also can't see how the tenets of the Bible are true. There's no proof that Jesus Christ actually existed, and even if he was he was probably illiterate, which makes me wonder why a divine being would reveal himself to someone who would probably misquote him. |
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10-31-2009, 06:26 AM
| #10 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
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that Vanilla Ice comment was hilarious... i think the camel thing is related to how all the 'stuff' one can accumulate with great financial wealth becomes the object of worship, and muddies up one's connection. but there are folks who are wealthy and spiritually connected as well. still, i do see what you mean. |
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10-31-2009, 08:42 AM
| #11 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Nong Seng
Posts: 3,975
| Quote:
(translation: don't bother me with logic, young man, or you're grounded for a week! Just believe what I tell you, OK!!! )Once you see that every religion hinges on: 'It is true, because the holy scripts say so. And the holy scripts are the word of God / Allah / etc, so there!' it is very hard to take religion or it's believers seriously. | |
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10-31-2009, 08:58 PM
| #13 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,225
| Quote:
Back in the Jesus days they knew about pi and in fact pi is in the old testament given as the measurement of a bowl in cubits. It is close but it's obviously man's version of pi at that time, nothing mysterious. It's given as 3.1395 which could be rounded to 3.14, technically only 3.1399999... equals 3.14 but they are very close. If the text had something like 3.141592653589793238 that would have been incredible! Vanilla Ice wouldn't work cuz people would think he took the idea from the Bible. It would have to be in a sealed envelope reading "do not open until 1990" | |
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10-31-2009, 09:11 PM
| #14 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
| Quote:
so thank you for the compliment. maybe you will humor me and let me know whether you meant you actually participate in All Hallow's Eve or, by 'busy season' you mean there are even more people who need to hear the good word. | |
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10-31-2009, 11:51 PM
| #16 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
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i hope you didn't include me in that "We". i do like the protestant view of not needing an intermediary to speak with the divine though. a teeny bit more empowering than having to go to the priest to talk to the Source. and yes, i did notice you didn't actually answer me. that's your right of course. |
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11-01-2009, 12:18 AM
| #18 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
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funny, apparently you changed "a brother" to "me". you are my brother even if we view spiritual things differently. we're both members of the human race, if nothing else. how interesting that you're attending a costume party when (presumably) you don't support the ideas behind this holiday. that is almost hypocritical, but i won't jump to that conclusion in deference to the pagan ancestors of westerners including myself. |
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11-01-2009, 02:23 AM
| #19 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: I'm a traveler everywhere and nowhere.. currently in Denver.. where else?
Posts: 3,618
| Quote:
What if to expand our ego's we have to let go of them? And here's a big what if.. what if our scientist will figure out this equation anyway given time? (it's my understanding they will.. soon within 50 years or less) You should research 'sacred geometry' maybe that will help some.. I'm not sure you can get that information unless you pull it yourself.. It seems more like channeled entities want to focus on specific areas and I don't know of a math EGO channeler.. (I mean there may be a reason why Seth was the last channeled Math teacher? Those from a higher perspective maybe realized math wasn't helping )The problem with EGO and I'd admitting I have one is.. we always want to ask more questions.. we get a answer for this.. we go what about this?? what about this?? what about this?? we require a lot of validation.. and it's more like if we don't get a answer we like/resonate with, we invalidate (where I was going with this statement I have no idea )Actually and here brings up a nother big question joelr cause I know we've talked about this before.. but how come you haven't asked a channel yourself? There not unavailable.. usually.. I've talked to my teacher this year.. (1st time) found a new teacher this year (who's human.. not to say the others aren't ) and while I didn't have a burning math question.. they did answer my questions somewhat Last edited by themaster; 11-01-2009 at 03:19 AM. | |
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11-01-2009, 05:36 PM
| #20 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Granite, MD
Posts: 311
| Quote:
That's one of many passages in the Bible that's repeated over and over; but frequently out of context which often misleads many people into believing it means something it was never ,meant to mean in the first place. When Christ was on the cross and said "My God, My God; why have you foresaken me"??, he knew he had not been forsaken and wasn't insinuating that he had been in any way. Jesus knew his OT scripture by heart;and he was reciting the 22nd psalm. If you read it, you'll clearly see that the writer believed that he would never be forsaken by God, nor did Jesus. When Jesus spoke of "Gehenna" he was talking about the city dump; where the fires were always burning. he may have been giving a visual of hell that people could relate to; as he often did in parables, but that particular"hell" is a park today and you can still go there. But, back in the day, it was where the trash was thrown and burned. Those are just a few small examples of many passages commonly taken out of context. There are so many more, and it's really hard to understand much of the Bible without the proper context, the full meaning of the words in the original Greek. etc. what appears to say one thing may have an entirely different meaning in many cases. Last edited by Betrade; 11-01-2009 at 05:42 PM. | |
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11-01-2009, 05:47 PM
| #21 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: earth, everywhere and nowhere
Posts: 9,713
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Bertrade, that's a good point about context and meaning. take the word sin for example. it originally meant "to err, to miss the mark" - not "to do evil and need forgiveness". it has taken on a connotation that it did not have at first. some might even say the current way the word sin is used is, itself, a sin according to the original meaning. |
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11-01-2009, 05:51 PM
| #22 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bucharest
Posts: 82
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I see Christianity as a source of inspiration now. I used to be a devout Christian but... I quit. There's a huge difference on the mindset with who you approach Christ's teachings. Depending on your level of consciousness you can see things in a different perspective. When I first started studiying the New Testament I never really thought deeply about what it said. It was more of a mindless regurgitation of scriptures. That was a long long time ago, fortunately. Let me give some examples. Jesus says "Blessed are the poor in spirit, because they shall see the kindgdom of heaven". The translation of this Bible passage in my language (romanian) is utterly stupid (pardon me). A lot of preachers in my country teach that it is more spiritual to be poor and consequently you'll get a better chance of entering "heaven" since your mind will not be so obsessed with riches and you get a better opportunity to serve the Lord. After a few years of meditation and experiencing some spiritual truth on my own, here's how I personally decipher some of Christ's words. (1) "Blessed are the poor in spirit, because they shall see the kindgdom of heaven" = "The less inner attachments you have, the better chance you get to feel your own inner being, the realm of the spirit, the silence" (2) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..." = Most people are unconscious (lost in thought) and fail to be aware of the blissful stilness that is within when the mind is not noisy. (2) "Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear." = "Stop living in your tought-tormented mind. Become present. Life is now. Past, future, anxieties exist just in your head. True life is now!" Of course, this is just my personal view. I believe the same basic truth is available in all world religions. What do you think? |
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11-01-2009, 10:18 PM
| #23 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 41
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I was raised a Christian, and although my family has never been one to go to Church and all that, I did attend Catholic schools etc. While I don't have anything against the ideas of the religion (mostly) what really annoyed me was how brainwashed I was when I was younger. I sincerely felt sorry for others because they were born into the "wrong" religion and believed in the "wrong" God. And that's just didn't ridiculous. I'd been conditioned to pity those who thought differently to myself. 'Tis not a way to live. |
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11-02-2009, 02:20 AM
| #24 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 138
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For me I find it hard to believe in anything that I can't explain to myself. Even though I am just a human being, I acknowlege the things I've learned and come to a conclusion that I know enough to be wise enough not to fall easily into things that just doesn't sound right. I also try to stay open minded and always try to keep a bigger perspective POV. I am only human and so I have every flaw that comes with being so. That being said I find it hard to believe in such a higher being. In any religion that believes in a being that is omnipotent and omniscient. To me those stories about them are basically about becoming more than we are. To become something as magnificent as the things we imagined. Those are great stories. But it doesn't change what we are. It doesn't tell us what we are. It tells us what we should be and should is the magic word. And it may even be tall tales. What gets me is that we have defended and murdered in the name of these religions. If a new religion proclaiming Santa Clause is god and they go to war because they believed in him and after 2000+ years Santa's religion is still going around then it would be a legit religion? If Santa never existed to us now and after 2000+ years Santa will exist later in bibles and scriptures will he have ever existed? No. Santa never existed. He was fabricated out of the human imagination and was so popular and gathered such a following that he gained immortality. Now if there was daily proof that God did exist, that would be different. But I have never come across something that did. This is just my logic. I do not believe in the spiritual, energy, or anything of that sort. But I know that ruling those things out would be ignorant and keep an open mind about them, they are facinating to listen to. |
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