How do I take the wisdom from Christianity without the part about hell?

[slumberland]

As a person who grew up in a mostly secular environment I was surprised to discover how much I liked the 24-hour televangelist station. T.D. Jakes, Joyce Meyer, all of these mega-churches amazed me by providing daily shows with great spiritual insights. Plus I also liked the camp value of the really silly stuff.

(of course, by this point I'd broken away quite thoroughly from childhood atheist teachings).

But how can I listen to the extraordinary wisdom of somebody like Joyce Meyer without subconsciously absorbing her accompanying message that because I am not a Christian, none of her wisdom applies to me and I’ll be burning in hell for eternity?

If anybody has suggestions how how to handle multiple veiw points I would love to hear it. Thank you.

[themaster]

Ohh your right it's a toughy.. here's a secret I only re-learned recently.. and again it's like learning something I already should know/knew "we all create our own reality"

So what does that mean? I'm going to have throw that out again with some personal experience or at least examples

It means that anything we take on.. is created vibrationally in our reality.. if you believe the that second coming is coming.. and we're all going to step up and ascend to heaven (of a form) that is the reality for you.. if you believe aliens are going to come and snatch us up.. that is a reality for you.. (bare in mind it also kind of matters how much belief you put into it) (I believe this concept was also explained by abraham with a analogy of a "pie")

Everything you can imagine exists somewhere, somehow that is what my teacher says.. so anything you can imagine can be your reality.. so the idea is: take what resonates from this teacher.. and when trying to stay out of another's reality/creation.. just say.. "that doesn't resonate.. that's not for me" "I choose this"

And here's the crux of it.. do not push against something negatively.. as that guarantee's you will have to, have that experience.. that is LOA backward/negative side.. you get what you think about.. and when you push against AIDS, world hunger, war as examples.. you just get more

[alsy]

I think you might need to explore other branches of Christianity that do not believe in the condemnation. In that way, you can compare, and find what suits you best.

The only one i know of without condemnation, is Unity church.
This will give you some idea on what they are about. What is Unity?
I don't think they will be as charismatic as some of the flame throwing Christians who are trying to drum up business, but its at least one option to look at. They are very open minded, and i found people of many faiths passed through there. At least here at an Australian Unity church that i was visiting some years ago.

I am hoping others may provide more options, or leads for you to explore.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by slumberland

...
If anybody has suggestions how how to handle multiple veiw points I would love to hear it. Thank you.

How about not only listening to christian channels, but also to muslim, hindu, jewish and buddhist channels? Lots of wisdom there too.

You need to decide for yourself what is valuable and what is not. That is easier in my experience if you open up to different points of view.

[aggie]

i have listened to joyce meyer for years and i have never, that i can remember, here saying anything about burning in hell. she knows that there are people listening to her, that are not "chirstians."

i certainly don't think, that as the kind of christian i perceive her to be, she would condemn someone like that.

she presents a choice to people....a personal relationship with Christ...if you believe in him...i guess that is the crux of the whole thing, i think, speaking in "christianity" terms. she also speaks of choosing life or death...which as i interpret it, a good, honest, productive life. you can take it to the extreme interpretation or literally just literally being good and honest and productive.

i think there are "levels" in a way of growth spiritually.

i agree it would be good to apply it to your reality and perhaps explore other spiritual philosophies.

[SelfAwareWorld]

I love to read, listen to, and watch every religous and philosophical type of media there is out there. When confronted with things that I don't like or that are uncomfortable, I use the analogy of shopping at a grocery store. Grocery stores have a lot cool stuff that attracts the eye and the stomach, but that doesn't mean I'm going to load my cart with everything I see. The same thing applies to spiritual media, load your grocery cart with the items you like and leave the rest on the shelf.

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by slumberland

all of these mega-churches amazed me by providing daily shows with great spiritual insights. Plus I also liked the camp value of the really silly stuff.
But how can I listen to the extraordinary wisdom of somebody like Joyce Meyer without subconsciously absorbing her accompanying message that because I am not a Christian, none of her wisdom applies to me and....

I'm not a religious person but I do think that all religions can offer us great spiritual insights. I personally don't believe that one religion has all the right answers, all of them shed some light on different, as well as the same, parts of the truth/reality/nature of things (whatever you want to call it), but it doesn't necessarily mean they are right about everything.
I'd take what resonates best with me and put this 'burning in hell'' part under 'I doubt that or they might be wrong' category.

[aggie]

just an fyi in regards to joyce meyer...she does not like the word "religious."

"religions" can be too "legalistic."....definitely a softer approach to Christianity, i think

[slumberland]

Originally Posted by aggie

i have listened to joyce meyer for years and i have never, that i can remember, here saying anything about burning in hell. she knows that there are people listening to her, that are not "chirstians."

i certainly don't think, that as the kind of christian i perceive her to be, she would condemn someone like that.

Aggie, you are absolutely right Joyce Meyer never says that kind of thing and I'm sorry that I put it that way. I was dramatic in trying to make a general point - that I have trouble reconciling some of the amazing wisdom that I have found in Christianity with the concurrent belief, that anybody who is not a Christian is going to hell for eternity.

My apologies to Joyce Meyer.

[slumberland]

the idea is: take what resonates from this teacher.. and when trying to stay out of another's reality/creation.. just say.. "that doesn't resonate.. that's not for me" "I choose this"

Thank you TheMaster... Interestingly, it is the above segment of your message that I resonate with the most. Also, isn't it true that we resonate with different things at different times?

The extent to which we create our own reality is something that I have not figured out yet . If anything I am more likely to believe that we impact our reality in much more far-reaching ways than we might imagine.

I'm glad you've found a way that works so well for you and I will think about it more...

[slumberland]

Originally Posted by SelfAwareWorld

Grocery stores have a lot cool stuff that attracts the eye and the stomach, but that doesn't mean I'm going to load my cart with everything I see. The same thing applies to spiritual media, load your grocery cart with the items you like and leave the rest on the shelf.

You are right, and I too listen to many different spiritual sources. And I think that really is the answer.

But I run into trouble when I believe my subconscious mind is maybe absorbing some of the stuff that I don't agree with. I feel a part of me is held back from getting what I need out of these teachings

[slumberland]

Tanja, I agree with your advice. I've been trying to do it but somehow, I feel that hearing it from so many of you other than just from myself is really gong to make it easier.

[slumberland]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

How about not only listening to christian channels, but also to muslim, hindu, jewish and buddhist channels? Lots of wisdom there too.

You need to decide for yourself what is valuable and what is not. That is easier in my experience if you open up to different points of view.

Spirit, you are also right. I have also been listening to Jewish sources and a few others, but sometimes they can be more difficult to find...

I guess my problem is that I wish my different points of view were more integrated with each other. But I agree, opening up to everything without discernment is not the solution...

[slumberland]

Originally Posted by alsy

I think you might need to explore other branches of Christianity that do not believe in the condemnation. In that way, you can compare, and find what suits you best.

The only one i know of without condemnation, is Unity church.
This will give you some idea on what they are about. What is Unity?
I don't think they will be as charismatic as some of the flame throwing Christians who are trying to drum up business, but its at least one option to look at. They are very open minded, and i found people of many faiths passed through there. At least here at an Australian Unity church that i was visiting some years ago.

I am hoping others may provide more options, or leads for you to explore.

Thank you Alsy. I actually never grew up with a concept of hell so I am very grateful for that, it really makes this whole thing easier for me. I have heard of Unity Church but never gone. Maybe I will try it though, I think they have really interesting lectures too, but that might be my imagination....

All my answers are shorter than they could be because I don't have time to go in depth but I really appreciate everybody's responses to this, because I've been struggling with having multiple viewpoints and how to use them or not use them...

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by slumberland

You are right, and I too listen to many different spiritual sources. And I think that really is the answer.
But I run into trouble when I believe my subconscious mind is maybe absorbing some of the stuff that I don't agree with.

Do you already (partially) believe the part about hell?
Because it seems to me you worry a lot about something you say you don't believe in.

How come you're not afraid that your subconscious mind might absorb something from other spiritual beliefs (not to use the term religion) that you don't agree with?

[slumberland]

I am realizing I cannot be sloppy with my explanations on this forum.

No, I truly do not believe in any kind of eternal hell. However, what I do possibly think is that certain belief systems offer different things for the people who fully embrace and live within them versus people who are picking and choosing different elements based on what resonates with them.

What I do think that I might pick on subconsciously is not a belief in actual hell, again I sort of said that to make my point dramatic, but maybe a sense that while all this spiritual power is available it is not available to me personally because I am not a member. So I would say it's more of an outsider/deprivation complex that I do admit having within me, rather than a secret belief in hell.

The fact that some Christians do believe that non-christians are going to hell simply accentuates the drama of the divide in this particular case though. It makes me feel like more of an outsider than if there was a less extreme belief.

I will say again that I really do draw from many different sources. And in particular with Christianity it seems that many people are either in or else they're out so I was curious. I was wondering if other people here have struggled with walking this line and how they handle it.

Tanja, I do actually worry about absorbing things from different places as well. Not just Christianity.

[joelr]

Just because Meyers doesn't often say many people may be going to hell doesn't mean she doesn't believest?

Meyers believes that Jesus went to Hell so we would not have to.

She also believes that if you do not believe this as fact you cannot go to "heaven".

So she does actually say what the OP is suggesting.

A quote from her 1991 booklet:

'There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell"

[themaster]

Originally Posted by slumberland

Thank you TheMaster... Interestingly, it is the above segment of your message that I resonate with the most. Also, isn't it true that we resonate with different things at different times?

That's absolutely true.. as we change who we are.. we change our truths..

Your welcome

Originally Posted by slumberland

The extent to which we create our own reality is something that I have not figured out yet . If anything I am more likely to believe that we impact our reality in much more far-reaching ways than we might imagine.

I'm glad you've found a way that works so well for you and I will think about it more...

Well, you and me both.. it's hard to fathom sometimes billions of realities/earths etc. and we are in both in etc. sometimes I can't figure out if that's true.. (if I understand right.. it's not our job to think either ) but I'll tell you I consider this message harder to remember..

Because I worked with a new spiritual teacher last week.. and he was a very good teacher no doubt.. but he started talking about the mission of the people there and himself.. and it was not a reality I resonated with.. but he made perfect and subtle hints (as good as a teacher as he was) that, that was not the reality some of us were going too

And even though I've known this stuff for years I still got lost

[alsy]

Originally Posted by SelfAwareWorld

I love to read, listen to, and watch every religous and philosophical type of media there is out there. When confronted with things that I don't like or that are uncomfortable, I use the analogy of shopping at a grocery store. Grocery stores have a lot cool stuff that attracts the eye and the stomach, but that doesn't mean I'm going to load my cart with everything I see. The same thing applies to spiritual media, load your grocery cart with the items you like and leave the rest on the shelf.

I like your analogy. I can see how empowering that can be. Expanding choices and potential. Thank you for sharing

Originally Posted by slumberland

I will say again that I really do draw from many different sources. And in particular with Christianity it seems that many people are either in or else they're out so I was curious. I was wondering if other people here have struggled with walking this line and how they handle it.

Please note, for simplicity i will use the term Brimstoner to refer to an Evangelist, or for any other of the branches of Christianity that are similar in belief. ie Fire and Brimstone. I apologize in advance if this may come across as offensive to someone under this label i am using, in order to communicate. I am not meaning to offend.

So far the best thing that has worked for me, is to not just leave these people alone, but if they happen to be in my existence, to draw the line and make it clear that i wont discuss their spirituality. All the Brimstoners i have ever encountered, try to convert and just want to cunningly draw you in to speak bible. Their version of Bible of course. On one site, i found more than 20 English versions available for viewing.

Brimstoners might be Charismatic (or at least some ), but i do not like their fruits; Division, intolerance of others beliefs, giving power to a Deity, guilt, unworthiness (unless under License), Fear, negative emotional projections if you are not one of them, and on and on.

Handling it, is in coming to understand myself, and learning what works for me, and what doesn't. What is my particular relationship to all that is, and has ever been in existence. Coming to know myself. I have looked at Many non bible Jesus related material over the years. I have looked at other things as well, and some of it is a bit complex to explain, except to say that it is evolving.

More recently, i discovered through another thread in these forums, some texts found last century. They contain sayings that Thomas recorded of things that Jesus said. They did not find their way into the Bible, but apparently, there are some similar things in the bible. There are many translations of the bible, and generally the intuitive knowledge has never quite come through for me in any Bible version i have looked at. The Thomas of Gospel texts do however, and i am finding that what is currently termed Law Of Attraction that i have related to for 20 years, is what comes through for me in the Gospel texts. That is just my own relationship. Yours may be wildly different, and it were the case, then it would require different symbols, or different language for your understanding.

My final suggestion is for me to be more specific. Explore. Ask, and you will find. Keep looking. Allow, and let it be, as if somehow it is.
Seriously. You will find it. Sometimes it is there, but is not recognized, and that might require a stepping back. Sometimes asking oneself more questions, or viewing a little differently to be able to recognize it. Even if you try one thing on for a while and eventually, you will come to understand yourself better. It has served its purpose. It could just be the stepping stone to something greater than anything you could have remotely imagined.

[jasonwisdom]

There is a difference between "believing" and "knowing".

For example... you can believe that it gets colder in the winter, because that's what you are told... until you experience it enough times that you no longer need to be told. You know it and if somebody else were to say otherwise, you'd be able to tell yourself if they were speaking the truth or not.

Listening to religious/spiritual/ethical authorities is much the same. You can believe in something like faith in the divine. And that might be a good start. You can hear stories that make you feel high as a kite (knowing of course that what goes up will eventually come down).

Eventually, though, you have to have your own experiences; you have to know it, and the only way to come to know it is by repeated experience, happening again and again and again, that proves the concept to be as true as the law of gravity.

Repeating something because somebody else said so, or because you wish or hope for it to be true, is not true faith.

One great example from the Las Vegas workshop: Steve and Erin kept talking about manifesting finding a penny. In the beginning, it was difficult; it might take them 2 weeks. Eventually they were able to manifest finding a penny any day they chose. Now they are manifesting greater amounts. They don't just "believe" in manifestation; they KNOW it to be true, based on their own repeated experience. It is as true for them as the law of gravity.

SO... when a preacher talks about God, or Hell, or Satan, or Love... eventually you will be able to recognize whether the words being preached are true, based on your own personal experience, or if the words are the preachers conditioned (read: non-divinely inspired) beliefs that don't serve you.

If you recognize that what a preacher says is not true, then you have the free will choice to tune that preacher out, just like you have the free will choice to change the radio station if it keeps playing music you dislike.

[aggie]

depending on how far and where you want to search and explore...for some of us christians...it can be very simple or very complex...however one chooses to look at it.

basically, christians believe that Jesus Christ existed, died for our sins, and was resurrected. if you believe this in your heart and you consciously try to live a good life on earth, you will have eternal life with Christ. and you believe the alternative can be pretty awful.

i am not sure that i believe in the literal, common concept of hell...but i don't believe all souls will viewed as equal in the end without fire and brimstone...it gets down to if you believe there is some accountability for your actions or the results of your "free will."

imo, sometimes it is easier to create other concepts, so as not to be subject to this intangible "law" of free will and be responsible for one's earthly behavior. imo.

[Mynder]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

How about not only listening to christian channels, but also to muslim, hindu, jewish and buddhist channels? Lots of wisdom there too.

You need to decide for yourself what is valuable and what is not. That is easier in my experience if you open up to different points of view.

This is really not a bad idea. What it will certainly lead you to is that there are a few things all these religions have in common, some elemental, basic values and principles.

Much of the rest is just decor.

[dream]

Hi. This discussion seems to be about the leaves on a tree rather than it's roots (if we are discussing Christianity). I find that you are searching for more and it comes from reading the scriptures. There is no getting around the fact that there is a hell. Jesus has said it on a few occasions. I have been an avid reader of the bible for at least 25 years. I suggest you read it and not be afraid. The new international version (NIV) is one of the simplest.

It has the most beautiful love stories and stories that will make you laugh out loud and maybe even pee your pants. But my favorite is that they say the BIBLE is (The Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth). As most of us may know The bible discusses a war between God and Satan. We are caught in the middle. Satan is fighting for us and so is God. God directs us through reading the scriptures, positive people (Which you can find in all walks of life), and the "Search of yourself" Which is what I think, for you, this is all about; your purpose which is the third way he directs you. Of course Satan is trying to pull you also. This is where he gives you the power of prayer to help you on your journey. This is why Jesus came to warn us of Satan and his master plan and set an example of how to defeat him and his hold of death, to hell.

I know this is a lot but I felt it necessary to give a more biblical account. The bible is a giant love letter from God to us. This is what I get from my readings. "Spend some time with God and you'll understand it is more of a warning (be careful) than a sentence. Jeremiah 29:11-14 & Romans 8:28-30.
All the best.

[themaster]

And what if hell was just playing a game of disconnection and belief that there is no light at the end of the tunnel?

Infact I just described hell.. so I would agree there is a hell if it fits mostly the description above.. in all the places.. that what I just described can be experienced.. here is one of them..

[dream]

For sure people can start early making a hell for themselves here or anywhere as there are people walking around dead as well (dead on the inside). Again that was the purpose of Jesus "walking amongst the dead" to bring life and hope. Of course there were also people like Slumerland who search for spiritual inspiration and that is to be commended now a days when people could care less about God but themselves. So I say cheers to her.

[Betrade]

I struggles with this whole thing years ago; when I was a kid actually. I was raised Catholic and was taught that hell was real, etc.

I wasn't openly taught that non Christians were bound for hell until I branched out into protestantism. Catholicism doesn't teach that; believe it or not.

Anyway, I wise Priest told me this, and it's so simple.

He said that Christ is "the way", but Christ can choose anyone from any religion whatsoever when it comes to who get saved and who doesn't, and who is allowed into heaven. It's not up to us; it's up to god, and that God's mercy is so enormous, that in the end, there will be WAY more sheep than goats.

Christ can just as easily allow a Muslim into heaven as a Christian, Hindu, or atheist. With God ALL things are possible right?? If Christ really is who the Bible says he is and said what the Bible claims he said, then hell exists, but if anyone goes there, it's because they have sent themselves there. It's filled with people who want nothing to do with God.

I read a good analogy where two people encountered God after death. One was Mother Teresa who saw the burning flame of God's love, but to another who lived a horrible life, that flame was repulsive and appeared to be hell fire, yet they both had the same encounter. Mother Teresa wanted to be with God so she approached the light and became part of it while the other stayed away; wanting nothing to do with it. It was his choice. I don't know how real that scenario is but I like it for some reason.

I have watched many TV preachers and I dislike most of them. I absolutely hate the "Christian media industry" and all of it's tricks to unload viewer's wallets with promises of miracles, but there are a few I have watched that I actually enjoy and have learned a few things.

Today's Christian TV contains a huge amount of self help talk and doesn't differ much from secular self help conferences in many instances. Joel Osteen is a great example of that. I personally can't stand watching the guy, but I have listened to him enough to know that he's as much a self help guru who uses Christian overtones as a preacher.

To each his own, but I don't believe that Jesus was all about self empowerment. He was also about lots of other things like self sacrifice (laying down your very life for a friend; and for love??), love, humility, meekness, etc. It's not all about "me" like so many seem to believe IMO. Taking care of "me" is great, but to what end?? If I can't help others, what good am I really??

[dream]

Well said!

[evansw]

In regards of multiple religions, my life experience is quite colorful. My family is a Confucian family since I was a kid, but tend to be secular as most people may say. We only go to temples occasionally. Then, I took Catholic education in my journey to complete elementary school, and switched to Christian education for 10 years until I completed the college. After that, I go to Buddhism until today. I still connect with people of many religions, and learn from them, and never bother about their concept about hell.

I believe religions are only our reality and there are many paths leading to Heaven. It's just about whether or not people admit the plurality.

In my schools, my teacher taught us that other religions other than what they believe are evil, satanic, etc and will lead to hell. But from their description about other religions, it's quite fascinating that they can't even explain correctly about what other people think that makes people do what they do. They continue to condemn other rituals, fengshui, etc.

Going deeper with several more people with deep religious beliefs, including from Moslems (I have 2 Moslems as my spiritual teachers), I come up with the conclusion above.

Many people become religious, but not spiritual. They get themselves too deep about religious rituals, yet without understanding the essence behind. They care too much about details without the bigger picture.

Learning from so many religions, I familiarize myself into extracting only the wisdom and passion in living as a truthful human being while ignoring the religion-specific rituals and accept all religions as equals.