Did Birth Happen To Us Or Did We Choose To Be Born?

[Free]

It is good to be born, but it is more of a mystery than a choice, because we did not choose time and place of our birth, we did not decide or choose gender, looks, planet and galaxy we born in etc. therefore we are predetermined or predestined. Our choice we made was when we were children, when we started asking: why things are the way they are, why people die, where who what is God etc. ? That was our choice and that was our free will expressing itself, everything else is a distraction and illusion, more or less.

[rei]

i would disagree. in my understanding, our eternal essence does choose the particulars of birth before we're born. it's just that most of us don't remember because the birth process is such a shock, and because our essence needs to get amnesia for the current lifetime - otherwise, if we already remembered all the times unpleasant things were done to us or all the times we did unpleasant things to others, the burden of that would be so great it would leave no energy for living this life.

i do believe in destiny, but i also know deep in my core that we choose the circumstances of our birth. we usually don't remember the pre-birth process though.

[themaster]

I don't know specifics from my teacher.. but I do know there is a soul blueprint/theme.. I think it would be likely that we did choose the time, place etc. (some people who claim otherwise.. our pissed at their family and claim a "victim" mentality) a lot of us our being born now to participate in the shift.. cause I guess it's exciting to go from negative to positive.. to change our whole world finally

If I understand right during the first 5 years of being a individual.. we cry a lot cause this place is seriously limiting compared to what were used too.. we are not always here and put our focus back up in higher realms.. and eventually we download telepathically do to conditional love our parents beliefs (those being born now.. now download much less)

[Manomanman]

The "self" is an illusion. We are the product of the energy of a vast collection of forces beyond our limited comprehension.

We are merely pawns in the game of life.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

We are the product of the energy of a vast collection of forces beyond our limited comprehension.

And this sounds like your saying we cannot figure out our existence.. I do not agree with you.. this is a limiting statement.. while I will agree there is vast structure, knowledge and vibration currently not within the scope of our reach or perhaps understanding.. it is not disconnected from us.. for it was created by us..

Originally Posted by Manomanman

We are merely pawns in the game of life.

This is a statement of limitation.. it sounds like your saying.. we have no choice.. we are just "pawns".. we our victims..

We have choice, this is our game, our rules and are invalidations should we choose them that way.. good luck with that idea if that is what you really believe "Manomanman"

[Free]

Originally Posted by themaster

And this sounds like your saying we cannot figure out our existence.. I do not agree with you.. this is a limiting statement.. while I will agree there is vast structure, knowledge and vibration currently not within the scope of our reach or perhaps understanding.. it is not disconnected from us.. for it was created by us..

This is a statement of limitation.. it sounds like your saying.. we have no choice.. we are just "pawns".. we our victims..

We have choice, this is our game, our rules and are invalidations should we choose them that way.. good luck with that idea if that is what you really believe "Manomanman"

-It is a mystery, let us drop the ego and aknowlage that life is a mystery.
-The next logical and natural step after realising it is a mystery is to explore that mystery.

-I think therefore I am; we explore by thought.
-Through thought we realise the truth, and the truth sets us free, free from the illusion.
-The truth does not make us believe; the truth makes us think; belief is the outcome of thinking.
-We must make the truth our higher power and authourity, and our spiritual guide; without the truth we make mistakes and go wrong directions.
-The truth is Jesus.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Free

-It is a mystery, let us drop the ego and aknowlage that life is a mystery.
-The next logical and natural step after realising it is a mystery is to explore that mystery.

-I think therefore I am; we explore by thought.
-Through thought we realise the truth, and the truth sets us free, free from the illusion.
-The truth does not make us believe; the truth makes us think; belief is the outcome of thinking.
-We must make the truth our higher power and authourity, and our spiritual guide; without the truth we make mistakes and go wrong directions.
-The truth is Jesus.

wow

we also explore with emotions, and with physical movement. the mind can sometimes work too much, creating an imbalance - overworked mental faculties, under-worked heart center. sometimes we get to truth by NOT thinking. many would argue this is the quickest way.

even with the truth people make less skillful choices and sometimes they go in the absolute 'wrong' direction precisely BECAUSE of the truth they think they have found.

the truth just is.
it is Jesus.
it is Venus.
it is Buddha.
it is Shakti.
it is Padre Pio.
it is Isis.
it is Muhammad.
it is Lady Nada.
it is Sally and Billy and Fido and Fluffy.
it is you and it is me and it is all one.
realizing all is one sets you free.
realizing you are not your thoughts sets you free.
belief can sometimes get in the way.

[Anagogy]

Did Birth Happen To Us Or Did We Choose To Be Born?


We chose to be born, but without memory of that it is understandable that some would choose to believe otherwise.

[Rhythman]

IMO, birth happened to me. Do I choose to beat my heart, grow my hair, digest my food? No. It is all spontaneously happening. Same thing with being born. There was/is no choice involved.

Rhythman

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Rhythman

IMO, birth happened to me. Do I choose to beat my heart, grow my hair, digest my food? No. It is all spontaneously happening. Same thing with being born. There was/is no choice involved.
Rhythman

That would be extremely tedious to be consciously aware of all those repetitive, monotonous processes, but at the same time, in a sense you do choose to do those things as you always have the option to stop doing them (i.e. end life).

[Free]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Did Birth Happen To Us Or Did We Choose To Be Born?


We chose to be born, but without memory of that it is understandable that some would choose to believe otherwise.

The fact that you do not have a memory and recallection of it is one more proof that you did not choose.
bless you.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Free

The fact that you do not have a memory and recallection of it is one more proof that you did not choose.
bless you.

Some of us do.. try not to be so limiting
Have a nice day! (yes, I mean that)

Originally Posted by Rhythman

IMO, birth happened to me. Do I choose to beat my heart, grow my hair, digest my food? No. It is all spontaneously happening. Same thing with being born. There was/is no choice involved.

Rhythman

You will be supported in the choice of disbelief or disconnection of self, there is that much support for you.. that you can be supported in that belief.. but should you choose otherwise.. you may note a whole world waking up soon in one way or another

(my understanding is everyone is waking up.. but how that is all going to work I don't know..)

[fitx3]

I know this subject is about whether we choose our life or not, but while reading this, I just remembered an awesome story done on a little boy who seemed to recollect memories from the Civil War. His detail on certain things was amazing like how he described the weapon he used and his relationship with the men he was working with. His parents didn't know or understand what he was referring to until they walked into a museum one day when their kid just went off on detail about many things he saw. The boy was 5 years old and had no way of knowing about the history of the event. I wish I could remember a past life like this little guy does!

[Maguru]

I wonder where this concept of 'we choose to be born' originated? Why would we choose it? There is no memory, no evidence and from the billions of sperms and billions of eggs the possibilities are endless.

I think the belief is empowering but unlikely to be true.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think the belief is empowering but unlikely to be true.

The belief is empowering = feel good?? and why the hell would you not listen to your emotional guidance system?

Or are you one of those that doesn't listen?
doesn't believe it does that?

I wonder where this concept of 'we choose to be born' originated?

Well, first off we do have imaginations.. before I believed the truth or joined there club.. I did first imagine it

But if you're looking for evidence.. why don't you quantify to me how millions of people can remember past lives.. that would be a good starter for quantifying the idea of a after-life? before-life?

Why would we choose it?

This is a statement of disconnection and denial.. it is statement of no conditional love for self..

The answer is if you care: from a higher perspective this looked like a very fun and exciting game.. obviously though once we got down here.. we just kick over rocks.. cause we think it sucks

There is no memory, no evidence and from the billions of sperms and billions of eggs the possibilities are endless.

My teacher would say the evidence.. is that we exist at all.. we would not exist if not for unconditional love of the universe to exist I'm sure that sounds like a stupid answer or paradoxical.. however it is the truth or a version of it

Evidence?? you want evidence?? There is plenty out there.. try quantifying.. my teachers words, another channeled entities words, past lives remembering, ufo's, bigfoot, ghosts, the loch ness monster and everything else our beloved scientists can't explain..

And by quantify I mean.. tell a idea of how even if 99% of them were lying.. that 1% could be the truth??

What's the idea.. I want you to tell me a tale how 1% of these stories/tales must be the truth?

And then tell me your answers?

Not it was dark and they were having marriage problems so they made it up.. but instead tell me a theory of how you can quantify all these peoples various tales and quantify there truths to fit into a full picture of the universe in a working model???

(yah, that's a mouth full..) but the truth is you can't quantify it.. that means in truth.. my teachers words, other channeled entities words, past lives remembering, ufo's, bigfoot, the loch ness monster ect. = ALL TRUE..

That may be something you wish to invalidate.. but let me suggest the truth to you.. invalidation doesn't serve you.. validation of everything that is you, that is made out of you, that is a part of you.. does serve you.. and you see all these experiences I outlined above.. and everything else is all you..

That is my model of the universe.. that is my religion... unfortunately for you.. you have no answers.. and so you remain in the dark with the scientist.. going.. "wtf we don't have a clue right now.. but we'll figure it out" and truth is science will figure out the universe is all us.. in about 50 years or less.. so either you can wait for them to give you validation.. or you can jump on the gravy/new age train early

Your choice, it's your life after all

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by themaster

The belief is empowering = feel good?? and why the hell would you not listen to your emotional guidance system?

I think the belief is empowering if it results in taking responsibility for your life but why in hell's name would I have chosen this life? Many others feel the same.

Or are you one of those that doesn't listen?
doesn't believe it does that?

I don't think empowering and feeling good are the same. Could it be the ego that feels good and not the emotional guidance system? Ego will believe anything to feel good.

I wonder where this concept of 'we choose to be born' originated?

Well, first off we do have imaginations.. before I believed the truth or joined there club.. I did first imagine it

But if you're looking for evidence.. why don't you quantify to me how millions of people can remember past lives.. that would be a good starter for quantifying the idea of a after-life? before-life?

I have no doubt that many people hold subjective beliefs about their personal inner experiences.

Why would we choose it?

This is a statement of disconnection and denial.. it is statement of no conditional love for self..

The answer is if you care: from a higher perspective this looked like a very fun and exciting game.. obviously though once we got down here.. we just kick over rocks.. cause we think it sucks

We aren't very smart in this higher perspective, are we? Doh!

My teacher would say the evidence.. is that we exist at all.. we would not exist if not for unconditional love of the universe to exist I'm sure that sounds like a stupid answer or paradoxical.. however it is the truth or a version of it

Evidence?? you want evidence?? There is plenty out there.. try quantifying.. my teachers words, another channeled entities words, past lives remembering, ufo's, bigfoot, ghosts, the loch ness monster and everything else our beloved scientists can't explain..

And by quantify I mean.. tell a idea of how even if 99% of them were lying.. that 1% could be the truth??

What's the idea.. I want you to tell me a tale how 1% of these stories/tales must be the truth?

And then tell me your answers?

Not it was dark and they were having marriage problems so they made it up.. but instead tell me a theory of how you can quantify all these peoples various tales and quantify there truths to fit into a full picture of the universe in a working model???

None of them fit into the full picture as a working model that I am aware of. All of it, every single experience is unique, experienced only from the inside and subject to the individual's mentality. Not lying but imaginative and naive.

(yah, that's a mouth full..) but the truth is you can't quantify it.. that means in truth.. my teachers words, other channeled entities words, past lives remembering, ufo's, bigfoot, the loch ness monster ect. = ALL TRUE..

That may be something you wish to invalidate.. but let me suggest the truth to you.. invalidation doesn't serve you.. validation of everything that is you, that is made out of you, that is a part of you.. does serve you.. and you see all these experiences I outlined above.. and everything else is all you..

That is my model of the universe.. that is my religion... unfortunately for you.. you have no answers.. and so you remain in the dark with the scientist.. going.. "wtf we don't have a clue right now.. but we'll figure it out" and truth is science will figure out the universe is all us.. in about 50 years or less.. so either you can wait for them to give you validation.. or you can jump on the gravy/new age train early

Your choice, it's your life after all

This new age gravy train has been running for many many years and is only repackaging old stuff. I was on it for a good while and found that it only goes round in circles.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Maguru

but why in hell's name would I have chosen this life? Many others feel the same.

Yah, I do agree with the idea that "others do".. but if you're using the Emotional Guidance System.. and you said this.. you might see that saying this statement is negative..

Even reading it.. reads negative

I don't know maybe I'm wrong.. maybe EGS is a bunch of crap

When I think about it.. when you say this and it reads/feels negative.. (and it probaly should at least for me it does) that means your definition/beliefs are that you know you're a unlimited being and that you chose to be here.. interesting yes? The negative means you are lying to yourself.. see even the statement above reads slightly positive to me

Originally Posted by Maguru

I don't think empowering and feeling good are the same. Could it be the ego that feels good and not the emotional guidance system? Ego will believe anything to feel good.

If I understand right you are correct.. the ego can get into releasing feel good emotions.. and kind of get into a trap.. yes I don't claim to understand this, I am just repeating my teachers words in a way on this subject.. but it's up to you to figure out your ego and if EGS is crap..

Originally Posted by Maguru

We aren't very smart in this higher perspective, are we? Doh!

We are very powerful and creative beings.. but you can go ahead and say were small and stupid if you wish..

Originally Posted by Maguru

This new age gravy train has been running for many many years and is only repackaging old stuff. I was on it for a good while and found that it only goes round in circles.

And there are many "new agers" that just gave up.. said it's impossible.. never even passed the "go" step

Yours is a skeptical viewpoint and somewhat pessimistic.. you do know what we say skeptics attract right?

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Free

The fact that you do not have a memory and recallection of it is one more proof that you did not choose.
bless you.

But some people *DO* have memories of choosing these things. Have you read any literature on life between lives regressive hypnosis?

Check out books by Michael Newton, the breadth and consistency among his subjects is amazing, and suggests that we do, in fact, choose the circumstances of our birth. Read those books, and see if you can tell me, in all honesty, that that material was fabricated.

There is a ridiculous amount of good evidence supporting voluntary reincarnation if anyone cares to do the research.

Best regards.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by themaster

Yah, I do agree with the idea that "others do".. but if you're using the Emotional Guidance System.. and you said this.. you might see that saying this statement is negative..

Even reading it.. reads negative

I haven't heard of EGS before but if you only accept positive emotions then what use are the rest? Negative isn't bad if it's the truth.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong.. maybe EGS is a bunch of crap

When I think about it.. when you say this and it reads/feels negative.. (and it probaly should at least for me it does) that means your definition/beliefs are that you know you're a unlimited being and that you chose to be here.. interesting yes? The negative means you are lying to yourself.. see even the statement above reads slightly positive to me

I'm not following the logic here. I am positive that I am a human being with limited capablities and because my belief is in the negative doesn't make it false.

If I understand right you are correct.. the ego can get into releasing feel good emotions.. and kind of get into a trap.. yes I don't claim to understand this, I am just repeating my teachers words in a way on this subject.. but it's up to you to figure out your ego and if EGS is crap..
We are very powerful and creative beings.. but you can go ahead and say were small and stupid if you wish..

I think there are very few powerful, creative human beings and they are still limited within the confines of survival.

And there are many "new agers" that just gave up.. said it's impossible.. never even passed the "go" step

I never said I had given up. I'm still here, spiritually evolving.

Yours is a skeptical viewpoint and somewhat pessimistic.. you do know what we say skeptics attract right?

It really bugs me when a point is made from personal judgements. Seriously, why do you even go there?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

But some people *DO* have memories of choosing these things. Have you read any literature on life between lives regressive hypnosis?

Check out books by Michael Newton, the breadth and consistency among his subjects is amazing, and suggests that we do, in fact, choose the circumstances of our birth. Read those books, and see if you can tell me, in all honesty, that that material was fabricated.

There is a ridiculous amount of good evidence supporting voluntary reincarnation if anyone cares to do the research.

Best regards.

Have any of the past lives been cross checked in the register for births and deaths? Surely they would remember their names? It's possible there could be verification for some more recent lives/deaths.

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Have any of the past lives been cross checked in the register for births and deaths? Surely they would remember their names? It's possible there could be verification for some more recent lives/deaths.

Well, even though I don't particularly believe in this whole past lives deal (or life/death in general), I think that a case could be made that souls don't necessarily have to obey our ideas of continuity with respect to time. i.e. the same 'person' could exist at different points in our history, remember their 'future' past life, exists at similar times in history, etc. Just saying... >.>

In response to the original question: Birth happened. No more, no less.

[MidasGirl]

I'd have to have chosen. A 3rd party wouldn't have been so cruel as to put me in with my siblings

[Michelle]

Several years ago I was going through a crisis period where the thought of suicide was on my mind daily.

One day while walking through the woods, a sense of knowing came over me. Suddenly, I was aware of the moment before birth where I had been told I could come to earth and the utter joy I felt at that prospect - as if I had been waiting a long time for the chance.

That gift of knowing is what kept me hanging on until I was doing much more than just hanging on. Today it serves as a reminder to me concerning my one and only life purpose - joy.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Melchior

Well, even though I don't particularly believe in this whole past lives deal (or life/death in general), I think that a case could be made that souls don't necessarily have to obey our ideas of continuity with respect to time. i.e. the same 'person' could exist at different points in our history, remember their 'future' past life, exists at similar times in history, etc. Just saying... >.>

In response to the original question: Birth happened. No more, no less.

They refer to themselves as real people in real situations having real experiences so it should be possible to cross-check but I doubt anyone has.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Have any of the past lives been cross checked in the register for births and deaths? Surely they would remember their names? It's possible there could be verification for some more recent lives/deaths.

Yes.

Check out this book, which is all about that:

Amazon.com: Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation: Second Edition, Revised and Enlarged (9780813908724): Ian Stevenson: Books

[Free]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

But some people *DO* have memories of choosing these things. Have you read any literature on life between lives regressive hypnosis?

Check out books by Michael Newton, the breadth and consistency among his subjects is amazing, and suggests that we do, in fact, choose the circumstances of our birth. Read those books, and see if you can tell me, in all honesty, that that material was fabricated.

There is a ridiculous amount of good evidence supporting voluntary reincarnation if anyone cares to do the research.

Best regards.

I do research everyday; wherever I go I raise this question "DId birth happen to us or did we choose to be born" and people find it interesting, others find it enlightening, thought provoking. I can comfortably say that 9.999 of the people I servay say birth happen to us; and once every long while I encounter someone who disagree, being defensive is natural with those who have strong ego, and I understand your position. but please do your own servay and go from there. bless you

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by Maguru

They refer to themselves as real people in real situations having real experiences so it should be possible to cross-check but I doubt anyone has.

Ah, I guess I'm a little late in reply, but I would have said something with regards to falsifiability. Now, I would simply suggest to check out that book/other research that has been done and falsify for yourself again if need be. Cheers.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Free

I do research everyday; wherever I go I raise this question "DId birth happen to us or did we choose to be born" and people find it interesting, others find it enlightening, thought provoking. I can comfortably say that 9.999 of the people I servay say birth happen to us; and once every long while I encounter someone who disagree, being defensive is natural with those who have strong ego, and I understand your position. but please do your own servay and go from there. bless you

LOL, the bolded part made me laugh. Now, who is being defensive here?

All I said was there was a lot of good evidence to support the idea of voluntary birth, because you said there was more evidence that we did not choose.

Please understand, I wasn't attacking you. I just wanted to see if you were aware of said evidence, and if you were, if you had a good explanation for why it was bad evidence as opposed to being good evidence. But, rather than addressing the evidence I pointed out, you decided to conclude that anyone who disagrees with you is "defensive" and has a "strong ego".

I mean, if you only want answers that agree with your beliefs, that's fine, but please post it in your thread. For example, "I don't believe we choose our birth, please, only people who agree with my beliefs post in this thread." Then you will get the answers you clearly want to hear. There is a difference between research and opinions, unless your research is only *ON* opinions, in which case, you should mention that more specifically. Some people base their opinions on evidence, rather than solely on their beliefs.

Best of luck.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I haven't heard of EGS before but if you only accept positive emotions then what use are the rest? Negative isn't bad if it's the truth.

Well, let me put it to you this way.. we created this reality yes? (now you may not agree but that's okay.. just listen and see if you can resonate with this idea)

If we created this reality of limitation.. (it is limiting isn't it?? we have ideas of disconnection and connection?? (also called positive and negative.. and in this understanding let me say that Positive energy = integrative energy and negative energy = segregative) the limitation to that idea is the disconnection.. because when you think of unlimited/infinity these ideas sound shall I say beautiful.. unlimiting )

Then wouldn't it be useful to have a system to guide us through a game of limitation.. that's where EGS comes in.. to put it bluntly it's very simple..

As were poking around in the dark.. (which is where we really are.. in terms of all this reality out there ) what feels good is the direction of truth and light.. and what feels bad is in the direction of more darkness..

I know that sounds simple.. or stupid.. but that is the truth (or one of them from my understanding ) if you don't resonate with this idea.. maybe you should try the source of the information (if you want it) and see if that helps..

Originally Posted by Maguru

I'm not following the logic here. I am positive that I am a human being with limited capabilities and because my belief is in the negative doesn't make it false.

It cannot be false if you believe that.. if you believe that you are a "human being with limited capabilities" then that is true for your reality..

However I'm suggesting this idea to you..
I am positive that I am a human being with unlimited capabilities

Maybe you can even sense here.. how I took your negative statement and just made it a positive one.. you tell me your reading this.. when you read this statement did you feel good.. did you feel a jolt of the positive?

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think there are very few powerful, creative human beings and they are still limited within the confines of survival. I never said I had given up. I'm still here, spiritually evolving.

Then why don't you evolve spiritually?? I'm suggesting a positive mindset.. a optimist.. I'm suggesting a unlimiting mindset?? not one where we tell ourselves.. were small, stupid and petty.. obviously..

I'm suggesting as a spiritual being you open up to ideas of unlimitedness...

Survival?? what has that got to do with it?? that is a mindset of old?? that is a mindset of fear?? the very word survival means.. I have no control over my life, reality etc.. I live a fear based existence.. cause any second I can be hit by a bus, killed by a virus of mass extinction, some murder can break into my home with a gun.. bam I'm dead..

That very mindset as you have noticed is being weaned off the world piece by piece.. it's not gone.. just currently losing more coherency

Here is some unlimited ideas for you.. maybe you'll note they feel good.. (maybe you just can't feel your that numb.. or maybe your really do believe this crap and by creating those beliefs your reality cannot be changed.. I'm not yet a expert on beliefs in my own reality.. )

What if death isn't really that bad?
What if we return to the game starting place when we die?
What if this is a high based limitation game and we do collect $200 when we die and pass GO?
What if fear of death is not a good way to live your life and you are surrounded by fears of it.. everywhere?

Understand that the word survival says to me.. you think we're all just animals.. and that when the power goes off the people will take to the streets and kill each other in movies like.. "The Stand" "The Road Warrior" countless others.. I say we won't..

Originally Posted by Maguru

It really bugs me when a point is made from personal judgments. Seriously, why do you even go there?

Why are you so negative in this statement?

Hey, I'm just asking..??

My statement reads neutral and observational.. that is the place I wrote it from and I would think some others would see it that way too.. but I will apologize you see I meant no offense.. If I say I love you.. will that make you feel better? Cause I do

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Have any of the past lives been cross checked in the register for births and deaths? Surely they would remember their names? It's possible there could be verification for some more recent lives/deaths.

I've seen at least one scientist working on it.. (there's probably more) in the videos called "The 5th Dimension" (since I keep the videos on my hard drive.. (I do believe) I can look up his name if you really want)

But really if you spend 50 seconds googling you probably find the terms "past life scientist" will give you lots of credible or close to it information.. you seem this is technically "Fringe" science.. meaning it can't be figured out and few work in that field.. cause it's consider laughable but there is truth out there if you want to find it..

But let me ask you a real question again.. and I didn't get a answer..

How can you personally account for 100% of the tales as being all lies?
Could you again not admit that at a minimum there is a 1% truth?
How many millions or billions of tales will it take to justify your disbelief?

Now you can simply say... hey I don't know - statement = neutral

But you could try this positive viewpoint

wow there's so many tales and so much research out there, there must be some truth in there somewhere... - statement = positive

It is not my intention in this thread to have a argument Maguru, it is my intention to help you see the limitation statements you are making.. if this does not help there is no need to continue this conversation.. I would happily disengage