Subjective reality ME

[cdm]

Hi All,

I'm not very good with ENG language but I'll do my best.
I've just found this article of Steve about Objective reality and Subjective reality, this is absolutely new to me so I'm trying to figure it out.

If I understand it correctly Pavlina says that in Subjective Reality everything is projection of my consciousness. So all my friends, parents, pets and this whole world is projection of my consciousness. You are all part of my movie that is not real. So by that logic there is only me here ?! And who answer this question is no conscious person it's only actor in my movie ? Well maybe I'm actor in your movie ?

really confused
cheers
Ian

[ethereal]

I think it's better to redefine it as, we are all actors in God's Mind (Consciousness), and we are all equally sharing that Mind as who we truly are (beyond our egos). Everybody is a projection of God's Consciousness, and we are all God in truth. It's not your body-mind that Steve is referring to, but your infinite consciousness, which is One with God and all beings.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by cdm

Hi All,

I'm not very good with ENG language but I'll do my best.
I've just found this article of Steve about Objective reality and Subjective reality, this is absolutely new to me so I'm trying to figure it out.

If I understand it correctly Pavlina says that in Subjective Reality everything is projection of my consciousness. So all my friends, parents, pets and this whole world is projection of my consciousness. You are all part of my movie that is not real. So by that logic there is only me here ?! And who answer this question is no conscious person it's only actor in my movie ? Well maybe I'm actor in your movie ?

really confused
cheers
Ian

I think it is quite wrong to say that the world is a projection. From a human perspective (as opposed to god's) I believe it is our perceptions that we project on the world, which in turn makes it subjective.
It is probably impossible for us to be objective as objective is 'what exists in reality' and our subjective reality is how we perceive what exists. Regards

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ethereal

I think it's better to redefine it as, we are all actors in God's Mind (Consciousness), and we are all equally sharing that Mind as who we truly are (beyond our egos). Everybody is a projection of God's Consciousness, and we are all God in truth. It's not your body-mind that Steve is referring to, but your infinite consciousness, which is One with God and all beings.

I really struggle with this interpretation because it does not exist in our reality. There is nothing in my experience that supports this theory. Why would this be true? How could this be true?
It seems more plausable to say we are projecting ourselves into the world and what we perceive is a reflection of who we have become as human beings. regards

[spacedout]

Oh no, here we go again with objective and subjective reality. Either way, suffering comes from the illusion of reality. Present (normal) reality deals with atoms and molecules and that is how the human mind interprets reality whether it is objective or subjective. The ultimate level of reality is fundamentally empty and cannot be understood with our mind because ultimate reality is nonconceptual. For us the mind is oriented toward the self and is totally - 100% - conceptual. Ultimate reality cannot be apparent until the self dissolves.


Pureawareness.info. Pure Awareness

[truthforhappiness]

To know it systematically, Buddha said :

1. Body is not ME
2. Thought is not Me
3. Perception is not Me
4. Feeling is not Me
5. Consciousness is not Me

Only that formless spirit (God) is the real of us, it's been masquerade by our desire, greed, pursue that causes that God not to arise, it's Buddha who had abandon all the desire and let that formless spirit (God) to arise.

To undestand more consider, what's been written Truth for Happiness

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Oh no, here we go again with objective and subjective reality. Either way, suffering comes from the illusion of reality. Present (normal) reality deals with atoms and molecules and that is how the human mind interprets reality whether it is objective or subjective. The ultimate level of reality is fundamentally empty and cannot be understood with our mind because ultimate reality is nonconceptual. For us the mind is oriented toward the self and is totally - 100% - conceptual. Ultimate reality cannot be apparent until the self dissolves.


Pureawareness.info. Pure Awareness

I see no use in pursuing an ultimate reality that is nonconceptual and not in existence. However, a reality exists now and is conceptual whether or not it is subjective or objective. We just preceive and conceive existence differently.

It seems we cannot be objective and maybe there is no need to be. I understand that this is your subjective view but I don't understand how you could have reached this concept. ??? Regards

[Mafistos]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Oh no, here we go again with objective and subjective reality. Either way, suffering comes from the illusion of reality. Present (normal) reality deals with atoms and molecules and that is how the human mind interprets reality whether it is objective or subjective. The ultimate level of reality is fundamentally empty and cannot be understood with our mind because ultimate reality is nonconceptual. For us the mind is oriented toward the self and is totally - 100% - conceptual. Ultimate reality cannot be apparent until the self dissolves.

I completely agree with you.

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I see no use in pursuing an ultimate reality that is nonconceptual and not in existence. However, a reality exists now and is conceptual whether or not it is subjective or objective. We just preceive and conceive existence differently.

It seems we cannot be objective and maybe there is no need to be. I understand that this is your subjective view but I don't understand how you could have reached this concept. ??? Regards

I did not say that ultimate reality does not exist. I said it is empty and cannot be understood by our mind. Our mind deals strictly with concepts. Ultimate reality is nonceptual but does exist; we just can't understand it until we transcend the self - the person (thing) which we call ourself - the ego - the small self.

The reason for pursuing ultimate reality is so we can live without the illusion that reality exists as objects. Objects create duality and duality creates self which in turn creates ego. When there are no objects to obscure our perception, all that remains is ultimate reality. Ultimate reality results in total bliss, hence a happier life and the capacity for perceiving complete clarity of what is. An easy way to experience ultimate reality is to live within the gaps between thoughts. As the gaps grow larger so does ultimate reality. It takes practice but that's what pursuing is all about. The only problem with this way of experiencing ultimate reality is it cannot go on for very long due to the power of the thinking mind. Transcending the self and ego results in a lasting ultimate reality becasue the self is directly connected to the thinking mind. To transcend the self and the ego, however, takes hard work and commitment and not everyone is willing to put that much into the pursuit. Therefore, very few will ever live in ultimate reality. It has everything to do with what one wants out of life and how much effort they are willing to put into getting it. That's the bottom line.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I see no use in pursuing an ultimate reality that is nonconceptual and not in existence.

No need for any pursuit. That reality just is what it is, whether you pursue it or not.

However, a reality exists now and is conceptual whether or not it is subjective or objective.

Understanding that conception is imvolved is important and useful, because it allows you the freedom to conceive differently.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

I did not say that ultimate reality does not exist. I said it is empty and cannot be understood by our mind. Our mind deals strictly with concepts. Ultimate reality is nonceptual but does exist; we just can't understand it until we transcend the self - the person (thing) which we call ourself - the ego - the small self.

The reason for pursuing ultimate reality is so we can live without the illusion that reality exists as objects. Objects create duality and duality creates self which in turn creates ego. When there are no objects to obscure our perception, all that remains is ultimate reality. Ultimate reality results in total bliss, hence a happier life and the capacity for perceiving complete clarity of what is. An easy way to experience ultimate reality is to live within the gaps between thoughts. As the gaps grow larger so does ultimate reality. It takes practice but that's what pursuing is all about. The only problem with this way of experiencing ultimate reality is it cannot go on for very long due to the power of the thinking mind. Transcending the self and ego results in a lasting ultimate reality becasue the self is directly connected to the thinking mind. To transcend the self and the ego, however, takes hard work and commitment and not everyone is willing to put that much into the pursuit. Therefore, very few will ever live in ultimate reality. It has everything to do with what one wants out of life and how much effort they are willing to put into getting it. That's the bottom line.

I realize this theory is becoming a common belief but it is completely subjective. All of it is through the imagination and perception. Gaps between thoughts is our present reality. Transcending ego is present reality. Whoever the transcended person becomes is still in the present reality. Change or discovery doesn't equate with a different reality. To believe this present reality is an illusion creates a separation from who we have become and who we imagine we are in a different reality. Two illusions or two realities?

On a personal note, I have experienced the gaps of bliss. My daughter attained this state of being for three weeks in full consciousness. She was euphoric but coming back down to earth was very painful for her. She experienced the alpha and the omega of emotions.

I have also experienced dissolution of ego and come to know intimately who I am through who I had become. I agree with you on the level of difficulty. I have also experienced my 'higher-self' in the spaces.

The conclusions I have drawn from personal experiences (as objective as I can be) is that ......"the spaces between thoughts is always there. We are just not aware of them. When awareness of the spaces is there then opportunity and possibility to expand consciousness is available."

The spaces are there for us to grow into. It's like buying a child shoes that are too big because they will grow into them. If there is no room to grow, we are stunted.

I believe the ultimate reality (beyond thoughts) you speak of is "the potential to grow/expand and bring in new, fresh ideas." I believe the two realities you speak of are one. Our minds are the only things that separate them. regards

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

No need for any pursuit. That reality just is what it is, whether you pursue it or not.

Reality changes and we could be instrumental in those changes before the spiritual kick up the backside.

Understanding that conception is imvolved is important and useful, because it allows you the freedom to conceive differently.

Sorry, there are so many definitions for conceive that I cannot conceive your point?????

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I realize this theory is becoming a common belief but it is completely subjective. All of it is through the imagination and perception.

I agree, experiencing ultimate reality is subjective but that is exactly why it is so powerful. Being subjective makes it very personal and individualistic and when people have the same experience, that in itself, gives it credibility.

I'm not so sure about the imagination part but the perception part is right on. When a person experienes ultimate reality it is all about perceiving what is.

Gaps between thoughts is our present reality. Transcending ego is present reality. Whoever the transcended person becomes is still in the present reality. Change or discovery doesn't equate with a different reality. To believe this present reality is an illusion creates a separation from who we have become and who we imagine we are in a different reality. Two illusions or two realities?

Everything is in the present (NOW) - there is no denying that. Both the illusory reality and the ultimate reality are in the present moment. All duality is in the present moment: up vs down, in vs out, good vs bad, love vs hate, illusion vs reality. Illusory reality is not the same thing as the present but it is in the present moment. Don't you see the difference? Ultimate reality is also in the present just like illusion is. Some people are experiencing an illusion and some people are experiencing ultimate reality but they are both in the present moment. So, the present reality can be either an illusion or ultimate, it depends on the person's state of consciousness. If the person exists in a low state of conscousness then he will be experiencing an illusion. But if the person exists in a high state of consciousness he will be experiencing ultimate reality.

On a personal note, I have experienced the gaps of bliss. My daughter attained this state of being for three weeks in full consciousness. She was euphoric but coming back down to earth was very painful for her. She experienced the alpha and the omega of emotions.

This is what I am talking about. When your daughter experienced ultimate reality she was in full consciousness (a high state) and when she came back to the illusion she knew it to be an illusion and therefore felt bad about it.

I have also experienced dissolution of ego and come to know intimately who I am through who I had become. I agree with you on the level of difficulty. I have also experienced my 'higher-self' in the spaces.

Don't you agree that it would be a great thing to be able to stay there?

The conclusions I have drawn from personal experiences (as objective as I can be) is that ......"the spaces between thoughts is always there. We are just not aware of them. When awareness of the spaces is there then opportunity and possibility to expand consciousness is available."

You hit the nail on the head. It is all about awareness. But to stay in awareness takes practice and work. It takes energy and not many people are willing to expend the energy to stay there.

The spaces are there for us to grow into. It's like buying a child shoes that are too big because they will grow into them. If there is no room to grow, we are stunted.
I believe the ultimate reality (beyond thoughts) you speak of is "the potential to grow/expand and bring in new, fresh ideas." I believe the two realities you speak of are one. Our minds are the only things that separate them. regards

I could not agree more. Thank you and Namaste.

Pureawareness.info. Pure Awareness

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

I agree, experiencing ultimate reality is subjective but that is exactly why it is so powerful. Being subjective makes it very personal and individualistic and when people have the same experience, that in itself, gives it credibility.

I'm not so sure about the imagination part but the perception part is right on. When a person experienes ultimate reality it is all about perceiving what is.

Everything is in the present (NOW) - there is no denying that. Both the illusory reality and the ultimate reality are in the present moment. All duality is in the present moment: up vs down, in vs out, good vs bad, love vs hate, illusion vs reality. Illusory reality is not the same thing as the present but it is in the present moment. Don't you see the difference? Ultimate reality is also in the present just like illusion is. Some people are experiencing an illusion and some people are experiencing ultimate reality but they are both in the present moment. So, the present reality can be either an illusion or ultimate, it depends on the person's state of consciousness. If the person exists in a low state of conscousness then he will be experiencing an illusion. But if the person exists in a high state of consciousness he will be experiencing ultimate reality.



This is what I am talking about. When your daughter experienced ultimate reality she was in full consciousness (a high state) and when she came back to the illusion she knew it to be an illusion and therefore felt bad about it.
Don't you agree that it would be a great thing to be able to stay there?

That is one way of looking at it but my daughter now believes she was in 'cuckoo land' She doesn't believe being in that state is very productive in today's society but she does believe that it is our natural state of being before the world writes on our slate.

You hit the nail on the head. It is all about awareness. But to stay in awareness takes practice and work. It takes energy and not many people are willing to expend the energy to stay there.

I could not agree more. Thank you and Namaste.

Pureawareness.info. Pure Awareness

Spacedout, I know we are talking about the same thing here but I call it the 'space' and you call it 'ultimate reality'. The labels mean two very different things and they cannot both be true.

I think the 'space' is a reality and we are born with it. This doesn't make our existence an illusion. We are as real as the 'space' and the space is within us. The space does become full of information and maybe full of illusions and false perceptions which influence our life experiences. However, no matter how we perceive the 'outside' world, what does remain true is our existence.

I've just had a thought! Ding ding! If it is 'space' then it has the capacity to be anything. Of course. That's where everything originates. Euphoria, wisdom, illusions. ha ha I'm just thinking aloud here. We can't bring this 'space' into being because it already is. We can access this space consciously or subconsciously. Have you ever 'slept' on a problem and woke with a solution? I think this is what we do subconsciously. We access the space. Hmmm........ Think I'll take a nap

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think the 'space' is a reality and we are born with it. This doesn't make our existence an illusion. We are as real as the 'space' and the space is within us. The space does become full of information and maybe full of illusions and false perceptions which influence our life experiences. However, no matter how we perceive the 'outside' world, what does remain true is our existence.

I've just had a thought! Ding ding! If it is 'space' then it has the capacity to be anything. Of course. That's where everything originates. Euphoria, wisdom, illusions. ha ha I'm just thinking aloud here. We can't bring this 'space' into being because it already is. We can access this space consciously or subconsciously. Have you ever 'slept' on a problem and woke with a solution? I think this is what we do subconsciously. We access the space. Hmmm........ Think I'll take a nap

Exactly!! That's why I'm "spacedout."