Truth?

[Michael Chui]

I love how you praise humanity and condemn it in the same breath.

[Uplift]

No, I condemn certain actions, we have a choice.

[Michael Chui]

"Philosophers and scientists" are a certain action?

[Uplift]

Yes, each rejects anything that can't be explained or rationalised by the mind. By their actions they attempt to grandiose their field at the expense of simple imagination and spirit. Does the secret say 'Choose a goal. Then spend your time arguing about that goal to see if its possible or real, or if the process is possible or real.' If as spiritual teachers etc tell us, we are all one unlimited bliss, where all is possible, all is equal and good, all is bliss, why waste time arguing about it, and its possibility. By their natures and actions, science and philosophy put mind first and give no weight to the simple truth of spirit. Spirit exists without mind. Take away the mind, whats left? Who changes the mind? Who created the mind. My goal is bliss and non suffering for all. So I reject the notion that I can go and torture someone and explain it away with karma. 'I didnt rape her, she said no, but she meant yes. Anyway, she doesn't even know she wanted it, she created it... to learn from'. No thanks. The mind can invent any notion, even one as ludicrous as that. Look what Hitler came up with. Look what people did by blindly following. Spiritual? I can pour myself into either imagining bliss and non suffering, visualising it, or whatever, creating it, having faith, believing, or pour myself into rationalising, debating, doubting, creating arguments for and against. I must have missed that bit in 'The Secret. 'For sale, bliss and non suffering, unlimitedness, all equalness... or suffering, pain limits, inequality. Buy what you want, debate about it as much as you want.

[Mark Lapierre]

Long before Christopher Columbus proved it, philosophers believed that the Earth was round, when everyone else believed it was flat. Do you think those philosophers lacked imagination and spirit?

Einstein came up with the theory of general relativity, and a group of scientists came up with Quantum Mechanics, both of which lead to String Theory. Do you think all of them lacked imagination and spirit?

I hope you were simply generalising, and that you do know not truly believe that all scientists and philosophers lack spirit and imagination, though to make such a claim at all shows a large degree of either ignorance or disdain, neither of which are compatible with truth, bliss, 'unlimitedness' or 'all equalness'. I point this out because it seems to be something you're unaware of, and of the detrimental effect it will have on your aim.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Yes, each rejects anything that can't be explained or rationalised by the mind.

I think you're going to have to define what you mean by "philosopher" and what you mean by "scientist".

Originally Posted by Uplift

So I reject the notion that I can go and torture someone and explain it away with karma. 'I didnt rape her, she said no, but she meant yes. Anyway, she doesn't even know she wanted it, she created it... to learn from'. No thanks.

I've heard a similar argument before. It came from a Christian woman. The main difference was that she said God created it.

Originally Posted by Uplift

I can pour myself into either imagining bliss and non suffering, visualising it, or whatever, creating it, having faith, believing, or pour myself into rationalising, debating, doubting, creating arguments for and against.

I think you've solidified your position as "I am all-knowing." Why did you post here? Aren't you supposed to be above dualities like that?

[Liara Covert]

Why must human beings so often seek decisive answers? Everything about life is dynamic and changing and perception is the foundation of all that.

"It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry.”
-Albert Einstein

“It is almost impossible to exaggerate the proneness of the human mind to take miracles as evidence, and to seek for miracles as evidence.”
-Mathew Arnold

“Hope is the companion of power, and mother of success; for who so hopes strongly has within him the gift of miracles.” -Samuel Smiles

[Uplift]

I 've already said I've got my answer. We have suffering because some people want it. It's obvious. Look at the answers explaining, debating, reasoning, arguing, and even proving why we have to have it. Never once saying no we don't want it, its possible to have bliss and non suffering. Is it such a horrible state to imagine.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Uplift

I 've already said I've got my answer. We have suffering because some people want it. It's obvious. Look at the answers explaining, debating, reasoning, arguing, and even proving why we have to have it. Never once saying no we don't want it, its possible to have bliss and non suffering. Is it such a horrible state to imagine.

It's a wonderful state to imagine, but it's a state far removed from our currently reality, and until our reality and that state are brought into alignment, all it will remain is imagination.

Do you know how such a state can be achieved in this world while still maintaining a presence within society? Can that be achieved without communicating with others, without attempting to understand them? Without allowing them to understand us? Without wanting to hear their opinions? By prejudging others because of the beliefs and practices of some?

I would love to exist in a state of perpetual bliss. And I'm sure I'll get there. But I don't believe it will happen by ignoring the fact that other people are so far from such a state that it is unimaginable to them. Or by simply wishing for suffering to end and expecting it to happen without creating change.

Uplift, it's great that you're so passionate about your goal, but by being so dismissive of others you seem very far from reaching it.

[Uplift]

Imagine if the germans dismissed hitler's views. The mongols those of ghenghis khan. The british the views of colonialism. Imagine the spanish rejecting the brutal views of their warped religion in the inquisition. Imagine rejecting darwin's views... the catholics views on abuse and deceit and power. Imagine if the zulu's rejected chaka's views of power and slavery. Imagine if Jesus accepted the views jammed down his, and his societies throats. Imagine rejecting the views of western science and philosophies, brutally, savagely inflicted on numerous supposedly 'simple and inferior indigenous people. Imagine the chinese rejecting the brutality against the Tibetans. Imagine if Buddha accepted suffering. Imagine if Martin Luther King, or Nelson Mandela accepted the brutality of racism. Imagine no Ghandi. Imagine so called ordinary people trying to be like them, trying to follow their example, speaking up against suffering. Imagine if I'll fail if it makes you feel better than imagining I won't. I won't accept any view that promotes suffering, no matter how well it is packaged and presented, no matter who the presenter. I am sorry if that offends you.

[JHL]

I won't accept any view that promotes suffering, no matter how well it is packaged and presented, no matter who the presenter. I am sorry if that offends you.

Apology accepted. However I should hasten to add that I am perhaps not so deserving of an apology as I dont actually promote suffering. I leave to that heavy metal bands and the people who insist of re-running "Dawsons Creek" ad inifinitum (Ok, I get it that a bunch of 18 year olds are more mature than I am, must you rub it in??!).

What I am 'guilty' of is accepting suffering as a naturally occuring, and realistic part of the human experience. If you suggest that by accepting it I am therefore condoning it - I am happy for you to lump me in with the group of heinous, unconscionable people who acknowledge it as a perfectly normal (albeit unpleasant) aspect of the human condition.

Imagine if the germans dismissed hitler's views. The mongols those of ghenghis khan. The british the views of colonialism. Imagine the spanish rejecting the brutal views of their warped religion in the inquisition. Imagine rejecting darwin's views... the catholics views on abuse and deceit and power. Imagine if the zulu's rejected chaka's views of power and slavery. Imagine if Jesus accepted the views jammed down his, and his societies throats.

Rejected these views - on the basis of what? You see, today we can confidently reject all of these things because we've had experiece of them. We've suffered through them and now we are positioned to recognise them in the future. Nobody rejected these things simply because they hadnt the experience to. That is the value of suffering. It teaches us, we learn from it and we grow. Thats progress. It isnt easy and it isnt pretty, but its remarkably effective.

I appreciate your passionate clamour for an end to the belief in the need for suffering - but I wouldnt give up my suffering for anything. Its helped me to become who I am. I've earned my growth, and therefore I've learnt a real appreciation and respect for myself. I dont want anything just given to me. Er, except maybe a Tivo. Then I could fast forward though Dawsons Creek

[Kiba]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Long before Christopher Columbus proved it, philosophers believed that the Earth was round, when everyone else believed it was flat. Do you think those philosophers lacked imagination and spirit?

Einstein came up with the theory of general relativity, and a group of scientists came up with Quantum Mechanics, both of which lead to String Theory. Do you think all of them lacked imagination and spirit?

I hope you were simply generalising, and that you do know not truly believe that all scientists and philosophers lack spirit and imagination, though to make such a claim at all shows a large degree of either ignorance or disdain, neither of which are compatible with truth, bliss, 'unlimitedness' or 'all equalness'. I point this out because it seems to be something you're unaware of, and of the detrimental effect it will have on your aim.

It is a myth that people around that time believe the world was flat. Most people believe the world was round.

Even then, I never said there was a need for suffering or pains. I'm saying it is people's choice to suffer.

Scientists are people who study the natural world, not the world of philosophy or religion. Again, there are no rules in philsoophy. People have varying philosophy from uplifts' to Steve Pavlina's to the most evil of mankind.

[Uplift]

I hear what you say JHL. So the loaves and fishes, and other miracles from many different cultures. Did Jesus say we need loaves and fishes, bingo loaves and fishes, have faith..., or did he have to go out, build a boat, hire crew, make nets and finally, much later, loaves and fishes. A-Spirit, Unlimited Bliss, Miracles, and so on, or B- the empirical world view, which considers A the realm of simpletons, dreamers and bludgers ('Get a real job Jesus'). If its B why base existance on, and search for and study A, claiming it as Truth. (Am I in the wrong forum? I just read the heading Spirituality, Consciousness & Awareness, and figured it was about Spirituality, Consciousness & Awareness.)

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Uplift

I hear what you say JHL. So the loaves and fishes, and other miracles from many different cultures. Did Jesus say we need loaves and fishes, bingo loaves and fishes, have faith..., or did he have to go out, build a boat, hire crew, make nets and finally, much later, loaves and fishes. A-Spirit, Unlimited Bliss, Miracles, and so on, or B- the empirical world view, which considers A the realm of simpletons, dreamers and bludgers ('Get a real job Jesus'). If its B why base existance on, and search for and study A, claiming it as Truth. (Am I in the wrong forum? I just read the heading Spirituality, Consciousness & Awareness, and figured it was about Spirituality, Consciousness & Awareness.)

Exactly! But what about the bliss I get from building my boat!? The splinters, the salty snarfle of water up my nose, heedless of the spiritually conflictive desire to go from Port A to Port B which is only yet another form of the suffering born of insufficiency and frustration? My point is, I am NEVER going to give up my dream of boat building, even if it DOES make me a bludger!!! Isn't that what spirituality, consciousness & awareness is really ALL ABOUT?

[Uplift]

The story says Jesus did make the loaves and fishes. Discrimination is my gift, one of my assets. I can't make loaves and and fishes, or end suffering, but want to learn how to, thats why I ask, carefully, because I take the matter seriously. So, again, does anybody know anyone who can, and who is unlimited and can end suffering. They will have my full attention. Claiming they can, and then being unable to, no attention. Good shot, just missed.

[Angela]

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Uplift

I won't accept any view that promotes suffering, no matter how well it is packaged and presented, no matter who the presenter. I am sorry if that offends you.

Did Buddha not accept suffering? I'll admit I haven't studied buddhism extensively, but in my understanding one of the key points is the acceptance of suffering. This is the First Noble Truth. Acceptance as the understanding that suffering is part of life, and that we don't need to react to it, and that there are ways to cure it.

I assume you meant 'accept' as in not doing anything to try to end it. But I'm quite sure Buddha didn't say, "reject everything and everyone which you believe promotes suffering, without attempting to understand it or them." That is however, the way of fundamentalist extremists throughout time. Vehemently rejecting without question all they don't agree with.

Your view doesn't offend me, but it does sadden me.

Originally Posted by Kiba

It is a myth that people around that time believe the world was flat. Most people believe the world was round.

Ahhh, I see. Thank you for pointing that out!

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Why such a division of A / B?

Exactly

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It was probably a form of compassion, no doubt, instead of running around going nuts about how terrible things are which would have clouded his vibe and brought him out of alignment. What did he mean by "forgive them, they know not what they've done"? I hope that wasn't translated to death and we don't have the real meaning but that sounds like a very non-judgemental statement as well as accepting which allowed some sort of detachment and kept his vibe up. And also if everyone had that attitude maybe there'd be peace on earth, ha?

Exactly. He accepted that suffering exists but didn't allow it to interfere with his mission.

[Uplift]

Spirituality promotes unlimited bliss, equalness, unlimited whatever. That all are actually Spirit, one and the same. That thoughts and creations are what differ. I have done personal training, and have seen some amazing transformations. There is always a common thread. A person comes in in state A, creation A, but wants state B, creation B. Once they honestly acknowledge A, they can see value in moving to B. Moving to B, however, means realising that the mindset and beliefs that create A, will keep creating A. A whole new set, foreign to A, is needed for B. A thinking didn't give the required outcome, ditch it, pour yourself into B. For some people that is next to impossible, they love to identify themselves with their thoughts and creation. They feel that rejecting the pattern of A, always deferring to the new and foreign B, is losing themselves. They identify the thoughts and creation as Spirit, or themselves. They don't want A, they want change to B, but they still value A. Some people ditch A like a hot potato, and B occurs in no time. So I look around, suffering, jails, drugs weapons, wars, poverty, pollution, greed. Whatever has come before, karma, religion, philosophy, politics, history, science hasn't worked, doesn't work, doesn't give bliss, non suffering. A whole new way is needed for that outcome, foreign to anything we know and hold dear. So kids pick up a skateboard, or a bike, and start imagining. The 'wise' ones tell them this is how you skate, this is how you ride. They refuse to be coralled into that old way and create things that defy, that shatter the old beliefs, in no time. They encourage each other to invent even new and more amazing creations. By necessity they must be extreme. They extremely reject the old viewpoint, and extremely create the new. Beyond the comprehension, and will, of the old 'legends'. Imagine masses of like minded people wanting a whole new`way of living, based upon bliss and non suffering. Totally foreign to the old way. Imagine freeing the Spirits, not just of kids, but anyone, to pour into the new world of extreme bliss, and non suffering. Of being in awe of the new creation. Naturally it would be foreign to the ideals that create suffering. I'll be honest, I suffered years and years and years of mental, physical, and sexual abuse. Virtually my whole childhood, and adolescence. I didn't want it. I wish I never experienced one instant of it. I've never had my arms and legs hacksawed off, and been tortured with a blow torch. Do I have to experience it, before I am allowed to say I don't want it? Aren't we Spirit, and smarter than that. Should I honestly shut up and say 'here abusers, do what you want, I am here for your pleasure... I love the pain, isnt it wonderful this learning, this karma. You haven't had your fill? Go again, I'm becoming a genius'! If I could push a button and make a world of bliss and non suffering, I honestly would forgive the abusers and do it. They could be free to do whatever, as long as they didn't force suffering on those that didn't want it. Spirituality says its possible. Minds say it isn't. We love all our quotes and stories. Where would we be without them? Make up your own, the majority of them haven't created a world full of Bliss and non suffering. That is if you want a world full of bliss and non suffering.

[wolfgang]

--------------

[ethereal]

Hehe, said I wouldn't come back but felt compelled to add in some great quotes on suffering and saving the world, by my fav. teacher David Hawkins. Hopefully they can help recontexualize the whole thing, or at least provide food for thought:

"The world of ego sees life as going from imperfection to perfection. You see something, you try to improve it. When you become the field, you become aware that what you’re witnessing is perfection moving to perfection, to perfection, to perfection. You’re witnessing that creation and evolution are one and the same thing. Creation doesn’t go from imperfection to perfect, and neither does evolution. If you become part of the movie, you think that you go from imperfection to imperfection to imperfection."

"This world is the ultimate for undoing karma. You forgot that you killed millions of people, so now when you get blown up, you can say, Thank you God. You can also choose to curse God. To get to the positive side of karmic balance, you have to undo the negative. You repeat the experience, but this time with a different intention."

"Reality is not provable, but it can be demonstrated and verified; you can’t prove Love."

"Pray to be shown error: 'Bring forth to my awareness that which is not aligned with Truth.'"

"What holds people at certain levels is the duality of attraction and aversion. Every situation has a payoff. You have to give up the pleasure of being right. With humility and surrender, you move beyond duality. As you evolve, you lift the others. By our combined intention, by virtue of that which we have become, we lift the level of the sea, and all ships rise with it. The consequence of everything rising is that it brings catastrophe."

"The source of duality is to think that the way I think is the way the world is."

"The way to handle any problem in the world is to say, “So what?” And if you get something you think you want, you can say, “So what then?” Divinity is ever present."

"Life is incapable of being destroyed."

"It never occurs to narcissistic people to change themselves rather than to change the world."

"You have to surrender the juice you get from suffering. This world isn’t painful. This world is neither pleasurable nor painful; you think breathing air is pleasant, but a fish doesn’t think so."

"You’re responsible for your intention, not the outcome."

"[Is it necessary to suffer to grow?] No. You can get to God through joy. It’s how you contextualize it."

"What can we do to change the world? The first thing you can do is do the world a favor and don’t try to change it. Change yourself."

"Nothing happens by accident. Each person that comes in has an infinite karmic pattern, and can only go where the pattern lets it go. An iron filing can’t go into a giant electromagnetic field and say, “I don’t want to go that way.” Is it terrible or is it wonderful? It depends; if I like it, then it’s wonderful, if I don’t like it, then it’s terrible."

"You automatically float to that which is of maximum benefit as karma allows. The circumstances of your birth – whatever your conditions – are perfect for your karmic benefit. You left people to die of starvation mercilessly, so now you’re going to be born in a place where you will starve mercilessly, and then you’ve undone that."

"There’s no point in bemoaning the world when you read the news every morning. That’s what life below 200 looks like. What did you think it would look like?"

"Everyone is always born with the most optimal conditions for spiritual growth. The circumstances of your birth are perfectly aligned with what you optimally need for your spiritual growth. That takes care of victimhood. Karma also has its upside; it provides for the undoing of things. When you reach a certain level of consciousness, you remember what happened in your previous lifetimes. The vicissitudes of life you can look at and say, I don’t know what it’s serving, but it must be serving something. And there is group karma as well."

"Socrates said, Man always chooses the good; in fact, he’s only capable of choosing what he sees as being good. The problem is that man doesn’t always know the good from the bad. He thinks his choices are always good, even if it’s blowing up innocent people."

"Many people ask, How can you forgive others if they’re wrong?"

"The perpetrator-victim model is res interna projected onto society. There is no perpetrator, no victim in reality."

"Appearance is not essence. That’s one of the great values of calibrating."

"One has to be willing to sacrifice everything for the truth. The gravity of the ego is severe. We can lessen its hold on us by understanding how it developed."

"The thing I had the most problem with was being indignant at non-integrity. You have to give up judgmentalism. The world as it is serves a great purpose because we have the chance to transcend the ego; it’s a purgatorial world."

"It’s not good versus evil; it’s that which is more evolved versus that which is less evolved."

"[In answer to someone asking about her alcoholic sister and wondering how to best care for her.] You surrender it to God and let go of wanting to control it. Trying to intervene keeps someone in pain and robs them of karmic merit. If you intervene, you’re interfering with karmic merit. You’re robbing her of what she needs to know. She’s going to need to hit bottom, whether she knows it or not. Intervening actually increases her suffering, because every time you try to help, you change where she has to go to hit bottom; now she has to go even lower. Do you love her enough to surrender her to God? If she says, “I hate you, you’re deserting me, I’m going to kill myself,” you say, “Well, that’s between you and God.” You need the conviction, the first step in Al Anon. Otherwise, you’re serving your own ego if you say, I’ve got to go in there and intervene."

"You can be angry because you love and you’re devoted. You care about life. That’s different from anger as where you live."

"Q: My question is about the vulnerability of the 500s. It seems like this overwhelming love makes it difficult to be discerning.
A: Although a burglar is innocent he is still a burglar.
Q: How do you protect yourself?
A: By awareness. Also, I can forgive a robber and see his innocence, but I don’t lend them my silverware."

"God is infinitely merciful. As you surrender you trust in the mercy. The justice of God and the universe is absolute. Every hair on your head is counted. Every thought is tracked. God would forgive you, but he knows that you wouldn’t evolve that way. Therefore, I own the divinity within myself."

"Question: What is surrendering? (This question came up 3 or 4 times, the below is a summary)
Answer: It is letting go of resisting what comes up.
Also, Surrendering is not the same as being stupid or blind (gullible)
Surrender resisting. Be ok with either outcome.
Withdraw intention from the matter. Surrender to God’s will."

"With humility we accept all that happens."

"Forgive others and yourself for everything."

"The only sin is ignorance."

"God is not over there and we over here. God is everywhere."

"Question: How do I deal with surrendering my child who is on drugs?
Answer: Surrender how you feel about your child using drugs. You don’t know the full story. Therefore you don’t know the karmic benefits of this life for your child. Your child may have to hit bottom before surrender happens.
Seeing somebody you love suffer is in itself painful. You also need to surrender the pain and presume it is for the good."

"Q: What can we do to heal the planet, ie when it comes to global warming?
You don’t have to do anything, just be loving. The world is perfect as it is although it may not appear that way to your perception."

"Q: How do we move into unconditional love?
A: -To be accepting of all of life
- To want nothing from life
- To see the beauty of all of life
- To let go of wanting to make anything different than it is

I never get excited about changing the world, because the world is perfect as it is. This is a great place for spiritual growth. Even if you are not at 540, that is perfect too and just let it go."

[Uplift]

The longest continual culture on the planet, by miles, and miles, (at least 40,000 years, could be more like 120,000, but that's even more embarassing to the fair dinkum, true blue ozzie who almost anhilated them in under 200 years) Indigenous Australians, never wrote anything down. Their wisdom and reasons for not doing so is awesome. Worth looking at. Im stoked, I continue to aim at my dream. Plus after all these posts and quotes, I feel more stoked to have my beliefs. I know that if I come across an innocent 4 year old, with someone sticking a bottle up their butt, whilst getting off on the screaming and gutteral terror, I'll put a stop to it. I won't stand around thanking God, recalling quotes to explain it.

[Adam]

I just have one question...

How does one fight against suffering without causing more suffering?

I think these "great minds" that people are quoting have tried to answer that, and couldn't, which is why they urge people to accept that suffering exists...

I can think of a few examples of people who just couldn't accept the advice to lay down and be thankful... Their answer was to take other people's suffering on their own shoulders... Now, each of those people are dead, usually murdered. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was one such man... There are various other examples throughout history, both in historical accounts and in religious mythology.

It is good to let God's will be done. It is also good to be a part of that will, and bring relief and peace to others. Which is better, though? Unfortunately, the answer is purely subjective.

[Uplift]

We are lucky, we have gifts like the secret. Things along those lines tell us that the goal, the vision, the imagination, faith are all important, not the process. If we choose non suffering, truly choose it, we can control our minds. We can use our minds and imaginations to visualise the outcome, create the image, focus, aim and look on in awe as Spirit comes up with amazing awe inspiring results. Like now, so much relentless aiming at, visualising, explaining, and imagining the necessity of suffering. Creations like karma creating it as 'law'. Look at all these posts, and this is in a Spiritually oriented group. Look at the proliferation of argument, will, defending, demanding suffering with every last drop. I have my answer. 'We are one, our true nature is Unlimited Spirit, God . Visualise a car, a job, a lover, money, friends, boats, houses, abundance, anything is possible, be amazed, inspired, look at the miracles, the secret'. Visualise non suffering? Bliss? 'Don't be an idiot! Don't you know the law, simpleton, raving lunatic... suffering is wonderful, a gift we accept it, and you better too...or else'. Look through this thread. It's all there in in writing, almighty writing too. Anyone got an eraser?

[Uplift]

By the way, Bill gates defied his teachers. Now he's the worlds richest man, who has virtually linked the whole planet. Anyone anywhere can have access to things like 'the secret'. He also donates more to ending suffering than any government anywhere. Then he met this guy Warren Buffet, and they formed this foundation... it's amazing, miraculous, awe inspiring. Lucky he ignored his teachers.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Uplift

I know that if I come across an innocent 4 year old, with someone sticking a bottle up their butt, whilst getting off on the screaming and gutteral terror, I'll put a stop to it. I won't stand around thanking God, recalling quotes to explain it.

Are you now trying to cause offense? Because implying that those posting here would allow an innocent 4 year old to be tortured in front of them, is a blatant insult.

Can't you see that it's not only hypocritical, but also counterproductive, to claim to want to end suffering, yet continually attempt to cause it (however unintentional) by insulting others, and belittling their beliefs and attempts to share their opinions with you?

[ethereal]

In Hinduism there is the concept of maya, illusion. All that you think you see, are only projections from your mind -- including suffering. First, find out how your mind is doing this, and then perhaps the suffering will cease. This goes with Steve's Subjective Reality posts.

[Uplift]

Only the guilty cringe at the sound of sirens. I hope that you find abuse offensive. Not a very nice, fluffy and Spiritual prospect is it. If you know you would act, no need to be insulted. Use your imagination, there are infinite ways to stop abuse, and suffering. Ethereal, is the caste system so appealling as well? And the beat goes on... not inspired by Bill gates?

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Only the guilty cringe at the sound of sirens. I hope that you find abuse offensive. Not a very nice, fluffy and Spiritual prospect is it. If you know you would act, no need to be insulted. Use your imagination, there are infinite ways to stop abuse, and suffering. Ethereal, is the caste system so appealling as well? And the beat goes on... not inspired by Bill gates?

Only the guilty, or only those who feel guilty? I suspect many guilty people don't believe they've done anything wrong and thus would still be guilty, but wouldn't cringe.

I strive to not be offended by anything. I fail often, but the more I succeed, the happier I become. What purpose does becoming offended serve? If I know that abuse should be stopped, what good does being offended do other than to cause me suffering through the negative emotions it invokes? The experience of negative emotion can surely be described as suffering. By saying that you hope I find abuse offensive, you're saying that you hope that abuse invokes negative emotions, and thus you're effectively hoping that abuse causes me to suffer, even if I'm not the one being abused. How is that helpful? How does that reduce suffering? Would it not be more spiritually aware to hope that I do all I can to end abuse, and to not focus on the offense/negative emotions/suffering at all?

I also strive to remember that whatever someone says of me reflects more about themselves than it does about me. So no, I don't feel insulted. And neither offense nor insult prevent action when action is required.

There are many ways to end suffering, and one is to listen to and consider the words of others, and to understand that our perceptions are different, and that everyone's perceptions tend to be limited by their own experiences. Someone else's view could be closer to reality than mine, so no-one's view can be disregarded without due consideration if I wish to see the world as it really is. That applies to me and you and everyone else.

[Uplift]

I never said anything about you, I said I hope you find abuse offensive. So all your direct assumptions of me are actually reflections of you? Do you really think it helps end suffering by saying that it is impossible and must exsist? In the case of a woman is repeatedly gang raped, tortured, unable to have children and infected with aids, do you really believe that she should be told that she did it, that she asked for it, in a past life? That it is a wonderful thing, a learning thing, a magnificent thing, for the rapists as well. That she needs to accept it, as it is a part of some amazing, ingenious plan? It's amazing all right!

[JHL]

Ok, lets say I agree suffering should end. How do you propose I go about putting an end to suffering?