Meaninglessness of life ...

[Starman]

If you believe you will not experience life after death, how do you keep from believing that everything you do in life is pointless/meaningless?

I believe in God and still wrestle with this all the time.

My grandmother used to have a little house in Florida she and my grandfather built in the 1920s. At eighty years old she still worked in her yard and house to keep it looking great, and she was very proud of it. After she passed away and the property given to my father, within six months it was dilapidated. That was years ago; the entire neighborhood is gone now.

Was her pride in vain? How is our lives any different?

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by Starman

If you believe you will not experience life after death, how do you keep from believing that everything you do in life is pointless/meaningless?

Everything you do in life is void of point and meaning. These terms are human constructs. If you want to apply those terms, life is both fully meaningless and fully meaningful. Life is.(period) There's just no way around it.

But instead of looking for meaning in what you do, why not examine your need of meaning in the first place? Liberate yourself from your need of meaning.

Was her pride in vain? How is our lives any different?

Nothing can be done in vain. It all has to happen exactly as it happens. If you label it as 'done in vain' then, maybe for you, it has been, but, from a larger standpoint, everything is done exactly as it should be done.

[spirit4711]

I believe your grandmother's pride was not in vain. She created something that was valuable to her and others.

For myself, I've decided there are several alternatives:
- life has no meaning and there is no afterlife
- life has no meaning and there is an afterlife
- life has meaning and there is no afterlife
- life has meaning and there is an afterlife

I don't know which one is true, but the last one appeals most to me, so I live my life that way. It is up to me to create the meaning of my life. And if I turn out to be wrong, there's no damage done.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by aphorist

...Everything is done exactly as it should be done.

I don't get it. My understanding of "pointless" is that not doing something has the same net effect as doing it.

What is the rationality of doing something which has no effect?

"...Everything is done exactly as it should be done."

Who is determining what "should" be done?

For me, this is the fuel behind depression.

Because it doesn't make sense to do anything but lay down and die.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Starman

If you believe you will not experience life after death, how do you keep from believing that everything you do in life is pointless/meaningless?

I believe in God and still wrestle with this all the time.

My grandmother used to have a little house in Florida she and my grandfather built in the 1920s. At eighty years old she still worked in her yard and house to keep it looking great, and she was very proud of it. After she passed away and the property given to my father, within six months it was dilapidated. That was years ago; the entire neighborhood is gone now.

Was her pride in vain? How is our lives any different?

I'm reminded of a story:

Two men were walking toward each other on an otherwise deserted beach. One man was in his early 20s, the other obviously much older. The smooth damp sand was littered with starfish, washed onto the land during high tide. They were stranded there when the tide ebbed. Thousands of starfish were doomed to die in the warm morning sun.

The younger man watched the older man pick up starfish one at a time and toss them back into the ocean, giving them a chance to survive. The young man thought, “Why is he doing that? How foolish. He can’t save them all.”

As they came near one another, the younger one felt compelled to point out to the older man the futility in his action. “You know,” he said, “you can’t save them all. Most of them will die here on the sand. What you are doing really won’t make any difference.”

The older man studied the young man for a moment. Then he bent down, picked up a starfish and tossed it into the water. He smiled at the young man and said, “It made a difference to that one.”

Then he walked on, picking up starfish and tossing them back into the sea...

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by Starman

I don't get it. My understanding of "pointless" is that not doing something has the same net effect as doing it.

If I throw a rock at someone's face, they'll be scared. So obviously doing something has a different effect than not doing something. The real question is, does it matter.

What is the rationality of doing something which has no effect

Everything done has some effect, there's no way around that. Again, the real question you're asking is does that effect have any meaning.

"...Everything is done exactly as it should be done."

Who is determining what "should" be done?

For me, this is the fuel behind depression.

Because it doesn't make sense to do anything but lay down and die.

It's not that things should be done a certain way, but rather that they are happening exactly as they will happen. The fuel behind depression isn't the understanding that life is without point, it is the incessant need for a point in the first place. Nothing is inherently depressing, your mental concepts create the depression.

(Depression is also a chemical imbalance in the brain. I can write about my bouts of depression and how I understand them now, but that's another topic.)

I think our misunderstanding comes from the issue of will or choice. I'm explaining this from an understanding that choice doesn't exist. You cannot control if you do A or B, you will just do one or the other. If you think that you are in control of what you do, you may then think that there is a 'better choice.' That would then be the flaw in your viewpoint.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by aphorist

...
I think our misunderstanding comes from the issue of will or choice. I'm explaining this from an understanding that choice doesn't exist. You cannot control if you do A or B, you will just do one or the other. If you think that you are in control of what you do, you may then think that there is a 'better choice.' That would then be the flaw in your viewpoint.

Do I read correctly that you state that choice does not exist?

[Starman]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Do I read correctly that you state that choice does not exist?

I think he's saying we are deterministic creatures who do what we do because our wiring and software are directing us to, or rather the wiring and software are doing it, not me.

I understand this, .but it absolves us all of responsibility for doing things like choosing to harm another, because the choice then isn't ours to make; "I had no choice".

There's also the idea that if you do bad things you are a bad person, not that you made a bad choice.

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by Starman

I understand this, .but it absolves us all of responsibility for doing things like choosing to harm another, because the choice then isn't ours to make; "I had no choice".

The concept that there is a 'you' to have responsibility is false indeed.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by aphorist

Again, the real question you're asking is does that effect have any meaning.

Okay, does working so hard to create our modern society, our fancy homes, cars, etc. have any meaning when they are as good as gone before we even create them?

What is supposed to be my motivation to participate in all of this?

[Starman]

Originally Posted by aphorist

The concept that there is a 'you' to have responsibility is false indeed.

Wow, when I was a child I used to pretend to be a robot. You're saying I'm actually a robot pretending to be a human?

My self-awareness, my consciousness, is what I'm calling 'me', or the 'you', from your perspective.

Though you say I don't have a 'me', I can assure you I do, because I can ask myself, "How do you (me) feel today?" evaluate the question and provide an answer.

IMO, when someone is put in prison for making the choice to harm another, it is the consciousness that is being punished/reformed. If we have no choice, it's the body that's being punished. If this is true, people shouldn't be going to prison; they should be going to surgery.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by aphorist

The concept that there is a 'you' to have responsibility is false indeed.

How do you know? Whoever 'you' are.

[Starman]

I like watching the National Geographic channel, about "primitive" cultures in places like South America, Africa, etc.

I can picture me standing beside a man from one of these cultures, in front of each of our houses, and him saying to me, "you know, the two of us, and our homes and other stuff are going to the same place."

My house, $200K, 6-8 months to build
His house, free, 1 day to build

My life, leave family to slave all day, to pay for the house, car, etc.
His life, hunting/gathering food with his family all day.

My focus: participating in modern society/materialism
His focus: family, ancestors

Maybe I'm the one with the "primitive" culture!

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by Starman

What is supposed to be my motivation to participate in all of this?

...I don't think there is a motivation. Unless you create one yourself, but that never seemed to work out for me. In my experience, after really embracing that there is no 'me' or 'meaning', things just sort of flow. Life just takes 'you', or, more like, it takes 'itself' along for the ride.

Great revelations about us being more primitive... Our culture is such a wonderful joke sometimes.

@spirit4711 I know through my experiences, but my answer won't ever satisfy you. You'll have to find it out for yourself if it's something you want to find out.

[TropicThink]

Originally Posted by Starman

I like watching the National Geographic channel, about "primitive" cultures in places like South America, Africa, etc.

I can picture me standing beside a man from one of these cultures, in front of each of our houses, and him saying to me, "you know, the two of us, and our homes and other stuff are going to the same place."

My house, $200K, 6-8 months to build
His house, free, 1 day to build

My life, leave family to slave all day, to pay for the house, car, etc.
His life, hunting/gathering food with his family all day.

My focus: participating in modern society/materialism
His focus: family, ancestors

Maybe I'm the one with the "primitive" culture!

Spot on. That's how I feel a lot of the time.

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by Starman

Wow, when I was a child I used to pretend to be a robot. You're saying I'm actually a robot pretending to be a human?

hah, nice.

My self-awareness, my consciousness, is what I'm calling 'me', or the 'you', from your perspective.

Though you say I don't have a 'me', I can assure you I do, because I can ask myself, "How do you (me) feel today?" evaluate the question and provide an answer.

Of course there is a you, as in a body. You have feelings which you can discern. When I say there isn't a 'you,' I'm saying there isn't an individual agent of action within your body. That you are a self-aware robot, with no more of a will than a robot would have.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by aphorist

...
@spirit4711 I know through my experiences, but my answer won't ever satisfy you. You'll have to find it out for yourself if it's something you want to find out.

I find it so funny when people who claim there is no choice choose to state so. Tickles my sense of the absurd.

Your answer is a cop-out. Stating something, but not backing it up. No problem for me. Whatever rocks your boat.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by aphorist

...I don't think there is a motivation. Unless you create one yourself, but that never seemed to work out for me. In my experience, after really embracing that there is no 'me' or 'meaning', things just sort of flow. Life just takes 'you', or, more like, it takes 'itself' along for the ride.

A lot of what you're saying makes sense, though its foreign to me. A society does have a life unto itself. I do like that your way of seeing things addresses what appears to me as meaninglessness, something I'm obviously lacking.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I believe your grandmother's pride was not in vain. She created something that was valuable to her and others.

You are right. Some of my earliest and fondest memories are of being there with her, in her house. Most of the time this place felt more like home than my own house.

I miss her. There is something very wrong about all this simply being gone.

My father is also gone. Some things that were very important parts of my life don't exist anymore. They are preserved only in my memory and in pictures. At some point this will also be gone.

People's lives are simply deleted, their whole life! Don't you think the stuff you do today is important? How do you feel about all of it being deleted?

[MiBeloved]

Regarding your grandmother, her pride was not in vain, because pride is always there, even though it might be misplaced or it might be exaggerated. Keeping a property up and maintaining a house are features of human existence as contrasted to animal life, where there is no painting and maintaining to the extend that we can exhibit in human civilization.
Wherever your grandmother went to, after leaving her body, she would have gone there with her penchant for upkeep and neatness, so it is not in vain.

[GuideMySpirit]

It's simply a lesson to learn, but a very long lesson to understand as a whole. Regarding what you were saying about your grandparents no it did not go in vain, because nothing ever truly lasts, it is only experienced, and we learn from it. After that we simply move on to a higher learning state, most people know this as dimensions/densities.

If you struggle with a path to understanding God or (Creator/Universal Spirit) you are simply following the middle path. Which is not that great to do. Others are either following the low path, don't believe in the Source or simply do bad things to others and have no respect for life, while others follow the high path and unselfishly love others. Being in the middle is like being lost, you must simply choose which path you want to follow and stick to it, but any path leads back to the Creator, some just involve a lot more pain to go through then others.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Starman

...
People's lives are simply deleted, their whole life! Don't you think the stuff you do today is important? How do you feel about all of it being deleted?

Yes, such is life, nature, creation. A cycle of birth and death, creation and destruction.

Robert Heinlein and Ray Bradbury wrote on this, in different ways though. Crudely summarized: you live on in the memory of the ones you leave behind. When they are gone too, you are forgotten. Some of us create so much value that they are remembered much longer (e.g. Ghandi, Boeddha, Mohammed). Is forgetting tragic? For some it may be. For me personally, it's neutral. I have no need to be remembered. I cherish my loved ones and enjoy life. When my body dies, I'll be curious to the next step (if any).

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I find it so funny when people who claim there is no choice choose to state so. Tickles my sense of the absurd.

Your answer is a cop-out. Stating something, but not backing it up. No problem for me. Whatever rocks your boat.

If you'd like to talk more about this, I'm more than open to it. I didn't want to hijack this thread to talk about it in depth is all. Here's part of the experiences I've written about in the past. The Truth of Awareness.

On the topic of choosing to write about no choice, there's no 'me' to write about anything, it is just flow making all of this go along. Even your posts, there's no 'you' to make them. The question of real choice and will comes down to if there's an individual agent of action within the body. If you grew up in a bubble, is there an authentic self that would be easily seen?

Starman: As I think everyone in here is saying, it's really up to how you perceive the situation. In the end, we are all able to make up our own path in life because it is a blank canvas to start with.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by aphorist

If you'd like to talk more about this, I'm more than open to it. I didn't want to hijack this thread to talk about it in depth is all. Here's part of the experiences I've written about in the past. The Truth of Awareness.
...

Ah, OK, I may have jumped to conclusions here. I've skimmed the first post in your thread (didn't see it before) and will read it more thoroughly later. And comment if I have something to contribute there.

So far, I am still I and you are still you, but hey, whatever happens, happens.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by aphorist

Starman: As I think everyone in here is saying, it's really up to how you perceive the situation. In the end, we are all able to make up our own path in life because it is a blank canvas to start with.

Understandable: I'm free to make up whatever definition I want for success and whatever explanation I want to justify why it's worth working hard to obtain it, whether it makes sense, whether its true or not, and proceed to fill the canvas based on whatever motivation results from that.

Suddenly that freedom seems very sinister: you're free because after all is said and done, it won't matter. Your canvas will end up just as blank as it was before you started.

How is this not a disaster? Why is this fate not mocking everything that man creates? How is all self-esteem stemming from what you've created not a form of "ignorance is bliss", in that you're ignoring the fact that it and you are soon gone?

The only way this makes sense to me is in a competitive way: I can feel good about what I created because it's better than what other people created. So what!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Starman

How is this not a disaster? Why is this fate not mocking everything that man creates?

Creation is FUN! Fun is not a disaster. Well, not to me, anyway. And so what if everything that we create is mocked by it's evanescence -- what's the problem?

[Daffy Duck]

Even if life was pointless, it's better than the alternative!

[EllaR0109]

I've struggled all of my life with my faith and my experiences, how they fit together. Some of my experiences are unusual, often funny, sweet, helpful, but unusual. I like Socrates quote - we are in a dark cave seeing only the shadows. Many things we we miss or can't know. I also find that nature doesn't waste. I don't think anyone's energy to better the world, even cleaning or whatever, is wasted. I do think there are layers to us and our body and soul are separate things. Bodies don't last. Our spirits are more fluid and do last.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Angela

Creation is FUN! Fun is not a disaster. Well, not to me, anyway. And so what if everything that we create is mocked by it's evanescence -- what's the problem?

True enough, fun is a good thing.

The experiences I had with my grandmother, listening to her talk about when she and my grandfather built their house with their own hands, the pride she felt in their accomplishments, the way she maintained it all, these were outward appearances of something very sustaining in her, something that she emanated that seemed to make all she did and believed very grounding. This seemed to orientate me to everything else in the world, to provide the reason why it's worthwhile to build a home and family.

Two years after she died I went back to the place where she lived; it was in ruin. I remembered her voice so well, talking about their lives here; I felt her pride.

I thought about how she would react to seeing her house in this condition. I cried for a long time, because of the loss. Something important is gone - impossible to explain. It's far worse than if you owned all the gold in the world, and it all sunk to the depths of the sea and was lost forever. Gold cannot cause you to understand why your life's work is important. Something in her that orientated me to the world in a way that made the work she did not seem futile, is gone, and I haven't felt it sense.

Being with her was fun, but it was more than fun. There were times when being with her was as sustaining to my spirit, soul, whatever you want to call it, as food is to the body.

[Starman]

As good as fun is, it seems to me that there should be more to life than just having fun.

Eating cake and ice cream is fun too, but I need something more sustaining, more fulfilling.