Meaninglessness of life ...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Starman

As good as fun is, it seems to me that there should be more to life than just having fun.

Eating cake and ice cream is fun too, but I need something more sustaining, more fulfilling.

Eating cake and ice cream is only one kind of fun. There are plenty of far more fulfilling (to more than your tum) forms of fun -- looks like your grandma found some!

[EllaR0109]

Stuff wears out and is replaced by new stuff. It's part of the creation process. I don't think your grandmother is upset that she was part of that process and it is changing. She might be upset that you are upset. And I agree, creating is fun but we need something more, we need to understand creating. She also helped create and shape who you are in ways. That will be forever.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by EllaR0109

...I don't think your grandmother is upset that she was part of that process and it is changing. She might be upset that you are upset.

You suggested the only thing that makes her/my life not seem futile to me. The fact that maybe who she was/is, isn't gone.

[Starman]

When I was a child I gloried in Christmas, and all the presents, the stuff, I got. Then, I could easily define the purpose of life in terms of the other stuff I would be getting.

But after enough times of hauling all this stuff to the landfill, I realized that I wasn't going to get anything that wouldn't eventually end up as garbage, and "stuff" ceased to be a worthwhile purpose of my life. I don't really enjoy getting new things that much anymore. The surprise of a gift is a bigger deal than whatever "it" happens to be.

Later, other things filled the role that getting stuff did: my children, helping others, my career, things like that.

If all these things end up as garbage as well, what's next?

It seems to me that I'm forced to believe in an afterlife for any purpose in living (other than having fun ) to not be futile.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Starman

It seems to me that I'm forced to believe in an afterlife for any purpose in living (other than having fun ) to not be futile.

Well, I call fulfillment and satisfaction "fun" -- but you don't have to. If you feel like you have to believe something because you're forced to, else you won't have any purpose in living, you go right ahead! It's better than no choice at all, huh?

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, I call fulfillment and satisfaction "fun" -- but you don't have to.

I know; we're talking about the same things with different language. It's all good; your language is as valid as mine.

Originally Posted by Angela

If you feel like you have to believe something because you're forced to, else you won't have any purpose in living, you go right ahead! It's better than no choice at all, huh?

This is what I'm exploring, whether or not I have to. I've seen that atheists and people that don't believe in an afterlife have a lot to say in this forum, so I was hoping to get some explanation from them. Why do I not have to?

[Angela]

Well, as far as I (an atheist) am concerned, this life is enough! It's okay if there is no afterlife, because the fulfillment and satisfaction, the fun, is plenty rewarding enough. Even if no one remembers me after I'm dead; even if nothing I've created lasts afterward -- still.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, as far as I (an atheist) am concerned, this life is enough! It's okay if there is no afterlife, because the fulfillment and satisfaction, the fun, is plenty rewarding enough. Even if no one remembers me after I'm dead; even if nothing I've created lasts afterward -- still.

Thanks for your explanation.

If you were my grandmother and no longer with us, and could hypethitically exist afterward, would you think that my grief in missing you is unfounded?

What would you tell those that were sad to see you leave, those who were inspired by your life?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Starman

Thanks for your explanation.

If you were my grandmother and no longer with us, and could hypethitically exist afterward, would you think that my grief in missing you is unfounded?

Absolutely not! I would prefer that you remember me and feel happy with the memories, than to feel grief missing me. But I understand the grief, and don't think you shouldn't have it.

What would you tell those that were sad to see you leave, those who were inspired by your life?

I would love it if remembering me moves people to feel good on purpose. Accept the sadness, get the message, and then when it's time, let it go. I didn't know your grandmother, but my intuition is telling me she'd love for you to think thoughts that have you feeling good, too.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Starman

Thanks for your explanation.

If you were my grandmother and no longer with us, and could hypethitically exist afterward, would you think that my grief in missing you is unfounded?

What would you tell those that were sad to see you leave, those who were inspired by your life?

Turn it around. What would you want your relatives and friends to feel when you are gone from this earth? Would you want them to grieve forever? Would it hurt you to see them grieve?

Me, I'd rather see them happy, and remembering me with a smile for what I gave them, and continue their paths.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by aphorist

I think
our misunderstanding comes from the issue of will or choice.
I'm explaining this from an understanding that choice doesn't exist.

If you think that you are in control of what you do,
you may then think that there is a 'better choice.'
That would then be the flaw in your viewpoint.

oh really? -
and who are you to tell someone here, outright -
that Another's thinking is "flawed" (??) but
that your thinking, such as it is, is "understanding"

Thankfully, I too think, differently... And decidedly so, and yes imo

Might you be so kind, as to return the favor by also admitting "IMO"

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by aphorist

When I say there isn't a 'you,' I'm saying
there isn't an individual agent of action within your body.
That you are a self-aware robot, with no more of a will than a robot would have.

and
your personally-adopted sad religion
notwithstanding;
some of us will continue.. being.. serving.. & playing.. as the real-individuals we happily are, yes each of us! Thank God!!

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Starman

As good as fun is,
it seems to me that there should - be more to life than just having fun.

really? - see, because God created 'fun'
in fact, I invite you to remember how God danced the day *you* were born
and sure there's more to life, too... any such Good-experiences also courtesy of God

[Starman]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

really? are you sure - see because God created 'fun'
so you'll have a chance to ASK Him about it.
and sure there's more to life, too... any such Good-experiences also courtesy of God

Actually there's very little I'm sure about. You see, I know the TRUTH is far too much to ask for, on the topic of this thread anyway.

So I'm having to murk around in darkness like everyone else, for little bits of knowledge.

Lots of people have ASKed, and for some reason have different answers

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Starman

You are right. Some of my earliest and fondest memories are of being there with her, in her house. Most of the time this place felt more like home than my own house.

I miss her. There is something very wrong about all this simply being gone. My father is also gone. Some things that were very important parts of my life don't exist anymore. They are preserved only in my memory and in pictures.

I'm sorry for your grief. - but you believe in God, right

Meaning that your dear grandma, & dear dad, & other precious care memories (never deleted & gone) continue... the memories in your mind, and these people in another sphere of being, & busy... and tho you aren't aware of them, they are aware! of you and do also remember that she'd love for you to preserve happy thoughts, of her plus your own successful contributions... - this Garden of hers, is like a garden maybe of a different variety, one in which you can feel "at home, at ease, beloved, & at peace"... Accept these good experiences, as her gift to you; such that you can share such happy feelings... with yet others This is how we Praise God, see

[Starman]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Turn it around. What would you want your relatives and friends to feel when you are gone from this earth? Would you want them to grieve forever? Would it hurt you to see them grieve?

Me, I'd rather see them happy, and remembering me with a smile for what I gave them, and continue their paths.

I agree. I wouldn't want to cause my family and friends suffering. But if they were indifferent to me no longer existing, I would likely feel I was of no value to them.

That brings up a question.

If the value I add to my children and others lives is lost when they all die, do I have the capability to add any lasting value to anything, anywhere? If the answer is no, why does that not make my life completely inconsequential? Fun, but inconsequential nevertheless.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

I'm sorry for your grief. - but you believe in God, right

Meaning that your dear grandma, & dear dad, & other precious care memories (never deleted & gone) continue... the memories in your mind, and these people in another sphere of being, & busy... and tho you aren't aware of them, they are aware! of you and do also remember that she'd love for you to preserve happy thoughts, of her plus your own successful contributions... - this Garden of hers, is like a garden maybe of a different variety, one in which you can feel "at home, at ease, beloved, & at peace"... Accept these good experiences, as her gift to you; such that you can share such happy feelings... with yet others This is how we Praise God, see

I understand you.

It's funny you mentioned something about a garden - I don't know if I mentioned that somewhere in this thread, but she had a large garden in her yard, and loved working in it. She developed a technique of replanting the largest of her peanut crop year after year, and she produced these monster peanuts as large as your hand, I kid you not. I'd never seen anything like it before; neither did anyone else. Everyone thought they were fake until they cracked one open for themselves and ate it. My grandma was something else, one of a kind, like her monster-size peanuts.

I have nothing but happy thoughts of her all the time. I just miss her too.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Starman

...But if they were indifferent to me no longer existing, I would likely feel I was of no value to them.

Isn't that exactly the definition of zero value? So by providing value you will be remembered. Test: how many kids you remember from your classroom when you were 6 or so? Answer: you remember the ones that gave you enough value to remember them.

That brings up a question.

If the value I add to my children and others lives is lost when they all die, do I have the capability to add any lasting value to anything, anywhere?

Yes. Buddha, Jesus to name just 2 examples. Famous artists (Michelangelo, Shakespeare, J S Bach). Etc.

If the answer is no, why does that not make my life completely inconsequential? Fun, but inconsequential nevertheless.

What is it for you? What if your life is inconsequential, no matter what you do?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Turn it around.
What would you want your relatives and friends to feel when you are gone from this earth?
Would you want them to grieve forever? Would it hurt you to see them grieve?

Me, I'd rather see them happy, and remembering me with a smile for what I gave them, and
continue their paths.

What a great perspective you have. Good for you!

[ProbableReality]

What if?

Remember that you are not reporting the news, you are creating the news.

So create well! (PS, your life is the news) IMO




Respectfully,

Ken

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Starman

As good as fun is, it seems to me that there should be more to life than just having fun.
Eating cake and ice cream is fun too,
but I need something more sustaining, more fulfilling.

Kewl! Glad you asked re "more fulfilling & sustaining".

You're gonna have Fun playing with this Success... alphabet:
Remember.......

Avoid negative/destructive sources (be they people, places, things, particularly beliefs, thoughts & practices)

Believe in yourself, including for optimal... longevity: well soul, mind & body

Child, what? - remember Jesus said: "be Converted as a LITTLE-child if you would inherit the kingdom of God"

Don't give up, Cherish your dreams.... and don't give in.

Enjoy life today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow may never come

Family and friends are hidden treasures, seek them and enjoy their riches

Genius, of course you are! so Give, more... than you planned

Humor - giggling Good-naturedly wholeheartedly... as small children do, LAUGH often...

Ignore those who try to discourage you

JESUS is your BEST friend: Accept Him as your Savior...

Keep trying to matter how hard it seems, it will get easier

LOVE God with all your soul, mind, & body. - And love others, as yourself

Make it happen

Never lie, cheat or steal, always strike a fair deal

Open your mind's eyes, and see things as they really are

Perfect practice makes perfect (particularly in sports)

Quitters never win and winners never quit

Read, study and learn about everything important in your life

Stop procrastinating

Take control of your own destiny

Understand yourself, in order to better understand others

Visualize the best you can be.

Want it more than anything

Xcellerate your efforts

You are unique of all God's creations, nothing can replace you

Zero in on your target and go for it!
-----------------------------------------------------

Some you'll Notice applying also well to sports.
(a similar version) posted at our Figureskating rink
where I practice... every chance I get

The 7 I bolded, are also exceptional for you creating a "more fulfilling & sustaining" life. Have fun!
.

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

oh really? -
and who are you to tell someone here, outright -
that Another's thinking is "flawed" (??) but
that your thinking, such as it is, is "understanding"

Thankfully, I too think, differently... And decidedly so, and yes imo

Might you be so kind, as to return the favor by also admitting "IMO"

Hah, great instigating. Of course, if you think I'm only expressing my opinion, then I am. "Flawed" is meant to say it is 'false,' yes. But also understand that nothing can be truly 'wrong.' It is all as it should be.

You seem to be very happy living in the world, in that case, there is no need for you to try to get out of it. For others, what drives them is a discontentment. And the only thing that saves those people is to find contentment. For some, contentment won't come through superficial success or blind faith in god.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

What if your life is inconsequential, no matter what you do?

Then I shouldn't be here.

[spirit4711]

You are here, living an inconsequential life, or not. Now what?

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by aphorist

You seem to be very happy living in the world, in that case,
there is no need, for you to try to get out of it.

You got this right! after God's pure LOVE graciously blessed me/us with LIFE, no less this abundantly...
my passion to also build others UP! & myself continue learning, perceives endless happy... opportunities

Originally Posted by aphorist

For others, what drives them is a discontentment. And the only thing that saves those people is to find contentment.
For some, contentment won't come, through superficial success or blind faith in god.

in assuming blindly, that another has "blind faith,
in god" shows your own blindness, are you aware?

in assuming superficially, that another has
"superfical" success, shows your own superficiality, are you aware?

Originally Posted by aphorist

Of course, if you think I'm only expressing my opinion,
then I am.
"Flawed" is meant to say it is 'false,' yes. But also understand that nothing can be truly 'wrong.' It is all as it should be.

aux contraire! :"all is NOT as it should be"; or else

our new friend Starman would also be content as can be, Yes!

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Starman

I like watching the National Geographic channel,
about "primitive" cultures in places like South America, Africa, etc.

I can picture me standing beside a man from one of these cultures:
My house, $200K, 6-8 months to build
His house, free, 1 day to build

My life, leave family to slave all day, to pay for the house, car, etc.
His life, hunting/gathering food with his family all day.

My focus: participating in modern society/materialism
His focus: family, ancestors

Maybe I'm the one with the "primitive" culture!

Hi Starman,
You know - you have other choices... for life, & this abundantly...
How about you research... how to enjoy your own family,
to a much greater extent like your less 'primitive' friend.

For only one, of many, example: I (115lbs. no less) learned how to build a Log-home; and
am a member of a community of Log-home owners, & prof. builders,
HELPing one another in "barn-Raisings", such
that at most, houses are homey in a week, or less.

This planet's vast majority of us are such DIY people,
Avoiding enslavement to car-"pmts, or much worse a mortgage".
and tho we participate in modern materialism,
we choose: what, when, with whom, how, why, & how long,
incldg. the (what I gave up on looong ago): tv.

As well, increasingly many of us homeschool, with
UNschooling the best for our children (sought after by
ivy-league schools). - I'm sharing, for example
my daughter graduated college, with honors, at age 17 -
I'm also sharing this to let you know that you, your wife,
& children could all be enjoying life together, & yes! content
as a part of our UNschooling, we as well practiced Horticulture (like your less 'primitive' friend),
plus our numerous animal-friends, put the local zoo to shame

oh, and you don't need no 5+ acre farm, either.
All this wonderful life your own grandma also cultivated,
can be done on less than 1 acre; or
in an Intentional-community on a many tiny shared plots of ground.

So you see, all you need do, is get your own family together, research your numerous options..., and
your finest dream, Create... GO! - and in this, I do wish you Well...

[Starman]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

So you see, all you need do, is get your own family together, research your numerous options..., and
your finest dream, Create... GO! - and in this, I do wish you Well...

I think this is a terrific idea. By the way, I did enjoy the alphabet thing you posted. You probably already knew such things can be used as mnemonic tools to increase memory of things through visual association. I'm always interested in increasing the power of my mind.

I've been comparing your views and understanding of why the time you invest in all the things you're involved in is worth doing so, verses the reasons why those who don't believe any of this survives the grave still believe doing these kind of things is beneficial.

I'm trying to understand these two very different ways of understanding with as much of an open mind as possible. Yesterday I went on a long walk and did my best to know with a certainty that me and everyone I know have no existence beyond death, and nothing means anything other than the meaning I choose to give things.

This experience was both liberating and something else, I'm not sure what, at the same time.

I felt that I was completely unrestricted because there is absolutely no authority or power to justify or condemn anything, outside myself. So if I believe I'm a computer scientist because I think I'm smart enough to be one, then I am one. Although you might say I'm not, I don't have to give what you say any meaning. This is very empowering, and even if I choose not to believe in the core premise that was behind this idea, I'll likely incorporate this empowering part into whatever I do choose to believe because its useful.

At the same time, there was no reason why I shouldn't walk out in front of a car and end everything. The pain this would cause my family wasn't an issue because I far as I would know, they're gone at the same time I am. When I die, I take the universe with me to non-existence. Since whatever value I add ends up in the bit bucket, What difference does it make whether that occurs today, tomorrow, next year, or in 100 years? Sure, I won't experience the fun I could have had, but how much is enough?

But at the same time, I felt far more bold in doing things I want to do in life, because does it really matter if I piss anyone off in the process? This is the ultimate reason to be selfish. It's like all those questions about what you'd do if today is your last day to live: How crazy would you get, how hard would you go after what you want to do before you die? As hard as it takes! I find this empowering too, though something in me tries to say, "Oh, that's not right!".

Don't worry, I'm going to do the same thing with a belief that the value I add to others doesn't cease to exist, that there is life after death, that God/Morality gives meaning to things, makes its not alright to use whatever means necessary to obtain the fun you want, because you're going to have to account for all this at some point; be penalized in some way.

But for right now, I'm trying to be an atheist, you know, to check it out.

[cerenurt]

Starman, your initial question reminded me of the podcast Steve Pavlina did called "Life, the Universe, and Everything" located here. He touches upon the fact that people leave everything about their lives behind after death and what that must mean about life.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by cerenurt

Starman, your initial question reminded me of the podcast Steve Pavlina did called "Life, the Universe, and Everything" located here. He touches upon the fact that people leave everything about their lives behind after death and what that must mean about life.

Thanks. I listened to some of the podcast, and will catch the rest later.

[Riddle]

Originally Posted by Starman

If you believe you will not experience life after death, how do you keep from believing that everything you do in life is pointless/meaningless?

I believe in God and still wrestle with this all the time.

My grandmother used to have a little house in Florida she and my grandfather built in the 1920s. At eighty years old she still worked in her yard and house to keep it looking great, and she was very proud of it. After she passed away and the property given to my father, within six months it was dilapidated. That was years ago; the entire neighborhood is gone now.

Was her pride in vain? How is our lives any different?

No, it gave her pleasure during her last moments on this earth, and she died with the pride still in her.

I think that everything in life is ultimately pointless from the bigger perspective, however, many people find something that they enjoy doing that can take their minds off the brooding thoughts they have.