Negative reflections of Self.

[Maguru]

I have found this forum to be the most fertile place to grow. Not just with knowledge or beliefs but by reaching my own hidden depths. Many aspects of myself have come to my awareness through interaction with others, especially those who antagonize me. If I'm fully immersed in a discussion I don't see myself but upon reflection I do. It's all there in black and white. During one such discussion I realized I was behaving like 'a woman scorned' (my judgement). Not how my ego saw myself at all but I was able to change it.

One of the easiest and foolproof ways of seeing one's own reflection is through others who push your negative buttons. Unfortuneately, most people place blame on the button pusher and do not accept responsibility for their own feelings/reaction.

The most recent example on this forum is the banning of judge. Many times I have felt offended and angry by his remarks. Sometimes I've reacted in a similar fashion which makes me no better at all and maybe I should be reprimanded even though he started it. This is what I mean, I cannot judge judge or anyone else that pushes my buttons. I cannot blame someone else for my reactions. They are all mine and my responsibility.

I truly believe this is the meaning of spirituality and personal development. We need the diversity and when we use judgements such as 'rude' 'insulting' insensitive' etc, it's time to look in the mirror.

This isn't a plea on judges behalf but maybe on my own behalf. If this community exists only as well behaved, polite, sensitive people it wouldn't be a true representation of society. If only my ego is represented then I am lost.

At the risk of pushing a few buttons I think it's time to grow up and let go of the need to control the written word and the authors.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Maguru

At the risk of pushing a few buttons I think it's time to grow up and let go of the need to control the written word and the authors.

I support you 100% on this.. I've been to thinking about pushing a few buttons on this.. (what a coincidence huh?? ) and I know it's dangerous cause then I'll have to do what he's supposedly doing if I don't switch boards.. and that's *pretend* I'm someone new.. which given my mannerisms like using.........

Makes it harder.. you know the other day.. I realized since I use this form of typing for everything.. I can be indentified on dozen + message boards both by my normal character "name" and my propensity to.............

Anyway back to the subject at hand..

The subject is called "repression" it's called the idea that "Action" can somehow fix a problem of someone being called a "troll" someone being judged inappropriate.. (moderation is same idea in a way of what our police force does.. they are given rules for acceptable society.. and told to enforce them.. but I say in truth to my police force and to the forum.. I say, no rules! I say, no judging period! Because obviously only "action" can fix the problem.. there's not a *cough* better way.. that I have ever heard off.. obviously..)

But there's the judgment in judge see.. ?

Who says what is inappropriate?? the second you do that.. you become "judge"

Here's my truth about judge.. some of what he says is true.. and some of what he says is wrong.. (and I’ve likely only read 10 of his posts tops!) obviously if the judge is judging others.. (this is what the moderators have covered up.. no open dialog on this idea)

He's not that good of a judge

I always thought judge.. was a enlightened guy with his name saying he "doesn't judge"
And the whole “Be God, Don’t Be God choose" motto..

But anyway.. I hereby throw in my vote.. to remove all limiting rules on this forum.. about "decency" about the idea of "trolling" and “moderation” and everything else.. I suggest a grand experiment in removing "Actions" to control people.. and allowing this board to be perpetuated and controlled simply by LOA and preference..

How about we see people who believe in LOA throw their weight behind it ehh? In a grand demonstration..

But while that's what I'd like to see.. I also allow the idea that some people.. are just not ready for this radical of a idea and that for a while longer.. I will be around shall I say more "limited" types.. (to each their own)

Also Maguru I suggest you use your power of LOA to take some action on this.. I have decided to do so.. and have already thrown mine in

[young]

I totally agree!

It's our responsibility. Not the one who insults. Being reactive and blaming someone else for how we feel is ignorance.

In a way I'm saddened with Judge's ban, although, I don't know what he did so dramatic that got him or her kicked out. I saw his posts as good teachings, not the best, to those who wanted it.

[Kanzeon]

Who was judge and who banned him/her? Maybe they should be called to explain.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Kanzeon

Who was judge and who banned him/her? Maybe they should be called to explain.

It has been addressed here.

[Maguru]

This wasn't intended as an inquest on Judge. It was meant to point out that those who push our negative buttons are giving us an opportunity to see our true selves. Personal development is restricted when all we do is pamper each others egos.

It isn't easy to see our own negative traits and even more difficult to admit them. Maybe this is why the button pushers become scape-goats? It's a case of 'don't cut off the messengers head because you don't like what you hear'.

[Angela]

Hi, Paula. From what I've seen, the admins are getting more and more liberal about interpreting the forum rules and allowing free expression, including posts that in days gone by would have been reigned in more strictly.

But there are some things they still enforce, and one of them is the "no personal attacks or insults" rule. Opinions, even harsh ones, can be expressed without personal attack or insult, but some people just do it anyway. Judge could be stimulating and irritating, variously, and I don't think the admins had any problem with him saying what he had to say, until he unleashed some personal invective. He had done it before, in previous incarnations, and gotten a second and third lease on life here and repeated the pattern; I think he might have gotten the additional chances because he had been providing value -- he wasn't a fly-by-night attack bat. In general, unless you overtly break the forum rules, you can pretty much say whatever you want to say however you want to say it. I agree with you that growth opportunity doesn't always (in fact, maybe even seldom) comes as a mind massage.

Someone was talking about a rule-less forum, like the kind themaster was talking about ... was that you, maguru? I don't think that's going to happen in this forum, but, themaster, why don't you build one?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by themaster

I support you 100% on this.. I've been to thinking about pushing a few buttons on this.. (what a coincidence huh?? ) and I know it's dangerous cause then I'll have to do what he's supposedly doing if I don't switch boards.. and that's *pretend* I'm someone new.. which given my mannerisms like using.........

I must admit I did it on another forum. I thought I would be twigged straight away but I wasn't. I owned up when I realized it was 'breaking the rules'. Then I was judged and suspended for breaking the rules. DOH! Me and my big mouth.

Makes it harder.. you know the other day.. I realized since I use this form of typing for everything.. I can be indentified on dozen + message boards both by my normal character "name" and my propensity to.............

Anyway back to the subject at hand..

The subject is called "repression" it's called the idea that "Action" can somehow fix a problem of someone being called a "troll" someone being judged inappropriate.. (moderation is same idea in a way of what our police force does.. they are given rules for acceptable society.. and told to enforce them.. but I say in truth to my police force and to the forum.. I say, no rules! I say, no judging period! Because obviously only "action" can fix the problem.. there's not a *cough* better way.. that I have ever heard off.. obviously..)

But there's the judgment in judge see.. ?

Who says what is inappropriate?? the second you do that.. you become "judge"

Here's my truth about judge.. some of what he says is true.. and some of what he says is wrong.. (and I’ve likely only read 10 of his posts tops!) obviously if the judge is judging others.. (this is what the moderators have covered up.. no open dialog on this idea)

He's not that good of a judge

I always thought judge.. was a enlightened guy with his name saying he "doesn't judge"
And the whole “Be God, Don’t Be God choose" motto..

But anyway.. I hereby throw in my vote.. to remove all limiting rules on this forum.. about "decency" about the idea of "trolling" and “moderation” and everything else.. I suggest a grand experiment in removing "Actions" to control people.. and allowing this board to be perpetuated and controlled simply by LOA and preference..

How about we see people who believe in LOA throw their weight behind it ehh? In a grand demonstration..

But while that's what I'd like to see.. I also allow the idea that some people.. are just not ready for this radical of a idea and that for a while longer.. I will be around shall I say more "limited" types.. (to each their own)

Also Maguru I suggest you use your power of LOA to take some action on this.. I have decided to do so.. and have already thrown mine in

I'm not into LOA having power over or for another. It could be perceived as abuse. I use my big mouth instead. Regards

Originally Posted by young

I totally agree!

It's our responsibility. Not the one who insults. Being reactive and blaming someone else for how we feel is ignorance.

Are you saying those who reacted to Judge are ignorant?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hi, Paula. From what I've seen, the admins are getting more and more liberal about interpreting the forum rules and allowing free expression, including posts that in days gone by would have been reigned in more strictly.

But there are some things they still enforce, and one of them is the "no personal attacks or insults" rule. Opinions, even harsh ones, can be expressed without personal attack or insult, but some people just do it anyway. Judge could be stimulating and irritating, variously, and I don't think the admins had any problem saying what he had to say, until he unleashed some personal invective. He had done it before, in previous incarnations, and gotten a second and third lease on life here and repeated the pattern; I think he might have gotten the additional chances because he had been providing value -- he wasn't a fly-by-night attack bat. In general, unless you overtly break the forum rules, you can pretty much say whatever you want to say however you want to say it. I agree with you that growth opportunity doesn't always (in fact, maybe even seldom) comes as a mind massage.

Thanks Angela, I do think this is a great forum and I have kept my behaviour in check (mostly) because of it. However, those who continue in a repeated pattern as you described cannot control themselves.

If the reader/victim realizes that the author is revealing much more about themselves than the one being attacked, then it could be a win win. The 'nice' people can practise tolerance of self-expression and free speech or choose to ignore it.

If someone is offended, it's an opportunity to look at their self-righteousness, or if someone is genuinely feeling hurt then they should look elsewhere for sympathy and try to understand that the offender does not understand, or just give them a taste of their own medicine.

They are all only words and it's truly liberating to have no expectations and empowering to be open minded enough take a step back and see them for what they are! Usually petty!

[aphorist]

hehe, insults are so cute, aren't they?

Paula, your realizations about insults are spot on, but if you were getting insulted from the first time you posted, do you think you'd have stayed around long enough to reach those conclusions?

It's just silly to personally insult people you don't personally know.

[spacedout]

Is saying whatever you want, to whom ever you want, freedom of speech?

I don't think that's what the framers of the Constitution meant by freedom of speech. But even so, if it is what they meant, let's take a look at what this particular fourm is about. It's about spirituality, consciousness, and awareness. To truly be these things means to be conscious of others and to respect others. To have an open forum is good but it is not necessary, in the case of this particular forum, to hurl insults at someone else. Not everyone is at the stage of being completely aware of their self and therefore may not be able to take personal attacks very well without being hurt. I think diversity is great unless someone gets hurt. If someone gets hurt due to an insult, then the person who cast the insult is to blame not the person receiving the insult. The person who received the insult may be incapable of letting it pass through them at this time in their life. That's why they are on this forum in the first place - to learn from others who are supposedly more spiritual, conscious, and aware. As aware people we should be aware of the narrowness of the mind. As spiritual beings we should spread kindness and do as much good as we possibly can, in all the ways we can, in every place we can. At all the times we can. As long as we can.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Angela

Someone was talking about a rule-less forum, like the kind themaster was talking about ... was that you, maguru? I don't think that's going to happen in this forum, but, themaster, why don't you build one?

Ohh, it could happen.. doubting the possibilities?

Yah, I know I can start one.. though I've only played with e'm.. but for me I gravitate to forums because of the members/people there.. not because it's some obscure forum that most people don't like or visit

(I guess this translated says.. I don't have the time, belief or want to fix this problem..)

Originally Posted by spacedout

Is saying whatever you want, to whom ever you want, freedom of speech?

It absolutely is.. but here is the funny thing we don't need "laws" to tell us the truth.. we have the right to think what we want, to say what we want.. and others have the right to have a bad reaction.. like killing you or judging you for said "speech"

It's funny in our country when such high ideals were given to our own documents.. that we still go out of our way all the time.. to break these brilliant stated truths.. If you yell "Fire, Fire" in a theater.. you are exercising freedom of speech.. but some miss-guided people on the planet will also say you endangered the public safety..

Originally Posted by spacedout

Not everyone is at the stage of being completely aware of their self and therefore may not be able to take personal attacks very well without being hurt. I think diversity is great unless someone gets hurt. If someone gets hurt due to an insult, then the person who cast the insult is to blame not the person receiving the insult. The person who received the insult may be incapable of letting it pass through them at this time in their life. That's why they are on this forum in the first place - to learn from others who are supposedly more spiritual, conscious, and aware. As aware people we should be aware of the narrowness of the mind. As spiritual beings we should spread kindness and do as much good as we possibly can, in all the ways we can, in every place we can. At all the times we can. As long as we can.

You have very valid points.. however in a way we can take action in a form to help those who are insulted/digress there insult through allowing the interactions to go on.. you see suppression or repression of information doesn't fix anything..

Because "Judge's" crimes or statements are no longer of record.. no one can "LEARN" from that experience.. that hiding, that repression of what happened is not FOWARD thinking.. it is backward thinking.. regardless of how you spin it..

There's no difference here between this idea.. and a idea recently of "jailed with being charged" Guantanamo is this idea.. If a person sits in Jail but does not know there crime nor is charged with a crime.. how can anyone learn anything about what's going on?

One good thing that goes on in our public court rooms is that the evidence can be examined by the public, by the prosecutor, by the defense.. by anyone.. Holding someone with evidence no one can see.. doesn't really "learn" anything for anyone.. it's holding them cause I told you they were "bad" and obviously you’re going to have to trust me

This is the case here.. the moderators have removed our ability to see for ourselves and judge for ourselves.. and yah the possibility for some limited types from making a big continued fuss about it.. and us trying to help them transition better..

I can go on and on.. about the idea of suppression/repression etc. why is this going on in our forums? I realize this goes on in 2 million other forums.. but it doesn't mean we can't step up..

[Angela]

Originally Posted by themaster

Ohh, it could happen.. doubting the possibilities? ...
(I guess this translated says.. I don't have the time, belief or want to fix this problem..)

I'm sure it's possible; it just seems very unlikely. For me, it's not a problem at all, so there's nothing to fix.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm sure it's possible; it just seems very unlikely. For me, it's not a problem at all, so there's nothing to fix.

I agree it can be viewed as you say.. but I also repeat what I've basically said above.. 2 times now "There's a better way"

[Angela]

Originally Posted by themaster

"There's a better way"

Sure, from your perspective, your way is a better way. That's the way it goes. Not from mine, though, and apparently not from the perspective of the folks who run this forum. You're not the first person to "step up" with your "better way" and so far no one has been influential enough to make the admins change their minds. Who knows, though? Maybe your arguments will dazzle them, and all rules will be abolished!

Its possible.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by aphorist

hehe, insults are so cute, aren't they?

Paula, your realizations about insults are spot on, but if you were getting insulted from the first time you posted, do you think you'd have stayed around long enough to reach those conclusions?

I don't know the answer to the question but my kids have given me a much harder time and I ran for cover. ha ha. I just wish they could own their negative buttons that I tend to push.

It's just silly to personally insult people you don't personally know.

Maybe we should just stick to insulting people we do personally know.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by maguru

maybe we should just stick to insulting people we do personally know.

{{trying unsuccessfully to post laughy smilies}}

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Angela

Maybe your arguments will dazzle them, and all rules will be abolished!

Its possible.

I need to go back to law school and work on my presentations

I think the correct way to solve the problem is to talk to the Pavilina's if they are as enlightened as we all hope.. that will fix the so called problem.. however I'm not motivated to take said action.. instead I leave my LOA to do the job.. and close my mouth until the next time I feel like texting it out

[spacedout]

It absolutely is.. but here is the funny thing we don't need "laws" to tell us the truth.. we have the right to think what we want, to say what we want.. and others have the right to have a bad reaction.. like killing you or judging you for said "speech"

I didn't know killing was a right.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Is saying whatever you want, to whom ever you want, freedom of speech?

I don't think that's what the framers of the Constitution meant by freedom of speech. But even so, if it is what they meant, let's take a look at what this particular fourm is about. It's about spirituality, consciousness, and awareness. To truly be these things means to be conscious of others and to respect others.

And woe betide anyone who doesn't, hey?

To have an open forum is good but it is not necessary, in the case of this particular forum, to hurl insults at someone else. Not everyone is at the stage of being completely aware of their self and therefore may not be able to take personal attacks very well without being hurt.

This is the point, to bring self-awareness through the negative. The forum is intended for personal development and for those who are vulnerable, it is a perfect opportunity for growth. We are in no danger here. They are only words that stir up the emotions. I have been there. I've been floored a couple of times on this forum and had to run to lick my wounds. I tell you from experience, if words can bring you down, there is need of some serious growth.

I think diversity is great unless someone gets hurt. If someone gets hurt due to an insult, then the person who cast the insult is to blame not the person receiving the insult.

It isn't about blame and judgement. The person casting the insult is responsible only for casting the insult. The person who feels hurt from the insult is responsible for their hurt.

The person who received the insult may be incapable of letting it pass through them at this time in their life. That's why they are on this forum in the first place - to learn from others who are supposedly more spiritual, conscious, and aware.

That's why I started this thread.

As aware people we should be aware of the narrowness of the mind. As spiritual beings we should spread kindness and do as much good as we possibly can, in all the ways we can, in every place we can. At all the times we can. As long as we can.

If Judge is not aware of all of the above, should we not show kindness to him? It's easy to be kind to those we judge as acceptable, whereas when we judge anyone as unacceptable, kindness, understanding and tolerance fly out the window! How spiritual is that?

[spacedout]

This is what is so great about diversity in beliefs. Our beliefs are reflected in the values and ideals that we hold so dear, everything that makes us who we are - the meaning and purpose we see in our lives - and our connectedness to one another and the world around us.

I honor your beliefs and will defend to my death your right to express them. I may not agree with your beliefs and you may not agree with mine, and that is okay. One of my beliefs, that I hold dear, is that we, as intelligent people, should express our beliefs in an intelligent manner without caustic verbiage. To launch verbal attacks, that are abusive and insulting, on anyone does no good to eaither party. To me it is a sign of immaturity and lack of respect for others. It is my hope that someday all human beings will show respect to all beings everywhere no matter how small, stupid, wrong or insignificant we think they are. And one of the first ways we can do this is through our God given ability in expressing ourselves verbally. Why can't we just be nice to each other? Wouldn't it be nice if nations could do the same thing? Let's start with ourselves.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by spacedout

I didn't know killing was a right.

Are you trying to say that you’re perfect? That you cannot enact ideas of murder?

Yes, it is a right just as doing anything here is..

You are like most of us already a murderer.. there is I think no difference between killing a insect, a chicken and a human being.. all the same thing I think.. We make judgments here "that it is worse to kill humans" but that is just a judgment..

Originally Posted by spacedout

To launch verbal attacks, that are abusive and insulting, on anyone does no good to eaither party.

Actually it does good.. to some people this is the only way they listen.. sometimes.. You cannot judge "verbal attacks" as negative.. they can be neutral and or positive..

In my life I am in the understanding that you do not respond to verbal attacks.. there is no argument if there is only 1 arguer.. I would observe a person doing something that is negative but I would not engage them..

However as we have already made a note of.. limited people may choose to respond as defense to said attacks because they are insecure/fearful inside with beliefs that hold them there.. obviously the best thing to do is leave them there, not engage them in anyway

However, I will take the flip side of the coin and say it's possible to engage in a different way.. insults and such is not necessarily required..

Here is the crux of my argument about anything.. if we are to grow as beings we need to be "inclusive" not exclusive about what's around us.. anyone of us that takes off into the negative is not being "inclusive" they are not moving in a forward direction.. and that's fine each of us has a "choice" but my suggestion was this forum could attempt to be "inclusive" (stated now for the 3rd time )

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

This is what is so great about diversity in beliefs. Our beliefs are reflected in the values and ideals that we hold so dear, everything that makes us who we are - the meaning and purpose we see in our lives - and our connectedness to one another and the world around us.

I honor your beliefs and will defend to my death your right to express them. I may not agree with your beliefs and you may not agree with mine, and that is okay. One of my beliefs, that I hold dear, is that we, as intelligent people, should express our beliefs in an intelligent manner without caustic verbiage. To launch verbal attacks, that are abusive and insulting, on anyone does no good to eaither party. To me it is a sign of immaturity and lack of respect for others. It is my hope that someday all human beings will show respect to all beings everywhere no matter how small, stupid, wrong or insignificant we think they are. And one of the first ways we can do this is through our God given ability in expressing ourselves verbally. Why can't we just be nice to each other? Wouldn't it be nice if nations could do the same thing? Let's start with ourselves.

Though you have not personally attacked anyone, your view is still very judgemental. Small, stupid, insignificant? Abusive, insulting? All your words, your thoughts and your perceptions. I think you feel very strongly about this issue and from my view point, I would suggest that you stop being so hard on yourself.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by themaster

Are you trying to say that you’re perfect? That you cannot enact ideas of murder?

Yes, it is a right just as doing anything here is..

You are like most of us already a murderer.. there is I think no difference between killing a insect, a chicken and a human being.. all the same thing I think.. We make judgments here "that it is worse to kill humans" but that is just a judgment..



Actually it does good.. to some people this is the only way they listen.. sometimes.. You cannot judge "verbal attacks" as negative.. they can be neutral and or positive..

Exactly!

However as we have already made a note of.. limited people may choose to respond as defense to said attacks because they are insecure/fearful inside with beliefs that hold them there.. obviously the best thing to do is leave them there, not engage them in anyway

However, I will take the flip side of the coin and say it's possible to engage in a different way.. insults and such is not necessarily required..

Here is the crux of my argument about anything.. if we are to grow as beings we need to be "inclusive" not exclusive about what's around us.. anyone of us that takes off into the negative is not being "inclusive" they are not moving in a forward direction.. and that's fine each of us has a "choice" but my suggestion was this forum could attempt to be "inclusive" (stated now for the 3rd time )

Inclusive! Love that word. ,,,,,,,,,,, but it has to include those who only know how to express themselves with 'insults', you dummy! Only joking, honest.

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Though you have not personally attacked anyone, your view is still very judgemental. Small, stupid, insignificant? Abusive, insulting? All your words, your thoughts and your perceptions. I think you feel very strongly about this issue and from my view point, I would suggest that you stop being so hard on yourself.

You forgot "immaturity and lack of respect."

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

You forgot "immaturity and lack of respect."

Are you? Well, you should know. What you do for another, you do for yourself.

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Are you? Well, you should know. What you do for another, you do for yourself.

Maguru, I get the feeling that you don't love me anymore. But, I still love you.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by themaster

I think the correct way to solve the problem is to talk to the Pavilina's if they are as enlightened as we all hope..

There is no problem. If you were an enlightened forum administrator, you would already know that.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by spacedout

Maguru, I get the feeling that you don't love me anymore. But, I still love you.

I wouldn't risk pointing out your negative beliefs if I didn't.
Regards