Should we take care of our body or let God take care of it?

[spacedout]

A friend of mine is a man from India and believes in Christian Science and Karma. He has had two strokes and has a problem with his speech but refuses to take any medicine that could help his speech as well as help prolong his life. I have had a TIA (small stroke) and take blood thinner and heart medication. My friend's comment is that he his not his body and everything should be left up to God - what ever happens is God's will. I also believe that I am not my body, but since I have been given this body I should take care of it as best I can much like I take care of my dogs, my car, my wife, etc. These are two totally different perspectives concerning the body. I would like to know your thoughts on this subject.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by spacedout

A friend of mine is a man from India and believes in Christian Science and Karma. He has had two strokes and has a problem with his speech but refuses to take any medicine that could help his speech as well as help prolong his life. I have had a TIA (small stroke) and take blood thinner and heart medication. My friend's comment is that he his not his body and everything should be left up to God - what ever happens is God's will. I also believe that I am not my body, but since I have been given this body I should take care of it as best I can much like I take care of my dogs, my car, my wife, etc. These are two totally different perspectives concerning the body. I would like to know your thoughts on this subject.

I think its safe to say if God was not okay with medicine, he is wholly capable of making it unavailable.

If EVERYTHING was left to God to the extremes your friend appears to do, one would not eat and die.

So you have to draw the line of illogical absurdity somewhere.

Problems are meant to be solved. That's why they are there in the first place. I can see how if one conceptualized any particular problem as a "punishment" dealt out from on high one might be inclined to let the suffering be as maximal as possible, in order to get it over with.....But again, you would think God would be intelligent enough to take into consideration any alleviating action you could possibly take when dealing out such divine retribution.

Personally, I believe everything is connected. Dysfunction arises in mental, physical, and emotional areas do to a lack of communication between the parts. The flow of information is important for any system to function properly.

Healing is the unblocking of these channels of information and energy. The fact that dysfunction is there, is not a sign of unworthiness or punishment dealt out from above, but rather something to be learned from and understood to the best of our ability, even if we end up not being able to do anything about it.

Its there, in our experience -- we might as well learn from it.

[Daffy Duck]

God gives us the ability to take care of our health. Use it.

It’s like the joke about the man who has been notified that his house is going to be flooded and he needs to get out of the house. He says no I don’t have to, God is going to take care of me. Then the flood starts to rise and a sheriff comes along and tells him to get out. The man says no, God is going to save me. So, the floods continue to rise, and he climbs on top of the house. A boat comes along and he’s told to climb into the boat. He says, no, no , God is going to save me. Finally, a helicopter comes along and they lower the net to rescue him. The man says, no, no, God is going to save me! Well, the man drowns and goes to heaven. When he gets to heaven he says to God, "why didn’t you save me?" God says, "I sent the sheriff, I sent a boat, I sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?" There is a point at which we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by spacedout

A friend of mine is a man from India and believes in Christian Science and Karma. He has had two strokes and has a problem with his speech but refuses to take any medicine that could help his speech as well as help prolong his life. I have had a TIA (small stroke) and take blood thinner and heart medication. My friend's comment is that he his not his body and everything should be left up to God - what ever happens is God's will. I also believe that I am not my body, but since I have been given this body I should take care of it as best I can much like I take care of my dogs, my car, my wife, etc. These are two totally different perspectives concerning the body. I would like to know your thoughts on this subject.

I'm not trying to change anyone, but for what it's worth, I'm on the side of your friend - I also try not to have any medical intervention - and that includes teeth, eyes, and anything else.

Non intervention may cause more suffering, but in the long term, one is more likely to become aware of the root causes of the conditions, rather than hiding them by simply alleviating the signs and symptoms.
I am aware that this is considered to be an extreme view by the majority, but as someone who has been involved with self development for years, I have learned an awful lot from my body which I would never have learned had I used medical intervention to hide what my body was trying to tell me. In my experience, in the long term it has made me very inwardly strong.
It all depends on what your priorities are.
Most people just want to get on with living and forget about their bodies, but that is not my approach.
I've reached the stage where I trust my body - If it produces a symptom, I know that it is something I have done to cause it, and I try to learn from it's reactions - Dreams are a great source of wisdom to learn about your body/mind, if you know how to understand them.
I think that 'heart' problems are often the result of not being in touch with one's emotions, and exercise and lack of stress, make the blood thinner.
Personally, nowadays, I'm just not interested in the scientific 'bottom up' analytical approach to healing. I see the body as a whole and philsophically, use a 'top down' approach, trusting my body

[MiBeloved]

Each person has his or her way of looking at life, according the childhood background, the teenaged years , the adult years and the resulting philosophy which one develops and relies on for a position or perceptive.
It is also a fact that many of us push in God as being responsible at our convenience. Whether it is God, Nature or Providence there is an ultimate force under which we function, and if we act or do not act, still that ultimately that force will prevails because in the end it will deprive us of this present body.
I feel that if you can do something to prolong the life of the body and if that action does not in another way screws things up, then why not take that action?
If for instance I have a terminal disease and I am told by a doctor that my life may be prolonged for one year if I agree to go on morphine, then I might not be interested in taking the morphine for fear of the addiction and undesired moods it would produce which would result from that and which I might take with me as a habit even after leaving the body.
But if I could be shown a way to live out the extra year without imperiling myself in some other way, I would consider it definitely.

[aggie]

i believe there are many ways to look at this...if someone's personal faith or religion leads them to forgo modern medicine...that may seem foolish to us...but it is their choice, ultimately. there are some people that are healed through prayer and faith. i don't think God intended us to be foolish enough to reject the ways that medical treatment can improve and sometimes save our lives...but i also believe He intended us to take care of our bodies...if you really need treatment that is one thing...but if you abuse your body with unhealthy excesses and then just figure oh well, there will be a pill or an operation or a organ donor that will patch me up...i feel that is just as foolish as rejecting medical treatment.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by spacedout

A friend of mine is a man from India and believes in Christian Science and Karma. He has had two strokes and has a problem with his speech but refuses to take any medicine that could help his speech as well as help prolong his life. I have had a TIA (small stroke) and take blood thinner and heart medication. My friend's comment is that he his not his body and everything should be left up to God - what ever happens is God's will. I also believe that I am not my body, but since I have been given this body I should take care of it as best I can much like I take care of my dogs, my car, my wife, etc. These are two totally different perspectives concerning the body. I would like to know your thoughts on this subject.

There is another way to look at this. Your friend is thinking of just himself. But what if it were his life's mission to give himself to the service of others? What if he dedicated his life to helping to feed the homeless, care for elderly people, help people get off of drugs, overcome their fears and live good, happy lives? What if he needed to extend his life as long as possible, not for his own selfish benefit, but so he could serve others?

Isn't this true religion, to love and serve others?

Wouldn't that be a worthy purpose in extending his life?

[Zas]

Originally Posted by Starman

There is another way to look at this. Your friend is thinking of just himself. But what if it were his life's mission to give himself to the service of others? What if he dedicated his life to helping to feed the homeless, care for elderly people, help people get off of drugs, overcome their fears and live good, happy lives? What if he needed to extend his life as long as possible, not for his own selfish benefit, but so he could serve others?

Isn't this true religion, to love and serve others?

Wouldn't that be a worthy purpose in extending his life?

I think it could be within someone's framework of belief that other people are responsible for themselves and perhaps you are handicapping their ability to grow as well as your own by trying to "do their work for them" in a sense . . .

That's not what I believe. However, I think that the concept of selfishness has a pretty fluid definition. It doesn't really achieve much if I were to say, "That man is selfish" by my definition, because he is probably not being selfish by his own.

I'm fine with him believing that. I'm not sure how I feel regarding this topic for myself. I guess I feel like it's my responsibility to do as much as I can on a mental and self-control level (meaning: keep stress managed, be aware of what's going on internally and how the external affects and reacts to that, etc) . . . But I don't see any reason to resist certain practices at my stage of development. Maybe that will change someday, but it's not like that now.

[spirit4711]

@spacedout, this issue has to do with holding oneself responsible or putting the responsibility outside oneself. Your friend seems to favour the latter alternative with respect to his physical health. That is up to him. You might ask him if he makes different choices with respect to responsibility in other areas of his life and if so, why?

Another question: suppose he stands for God's throne and God asks him: why didn't you use the brain I gave you? (Remember also the bible story about the 3 servants (not) using their talents.)

Needless to say I favour the first alternative.

[Trezker]

"Should we take care of our body or let God take care of it? Should we take care of our body or let God take care of it?"

What's the difference? We and God are the same.

[Dreamline]

We are of God.

Our bodies and our incarnations are a gift from our creator and should be treated as such. It's the vessel of your soul as long as you are here to do whatever work you should be doing. Therefore, allowing the perfection of your soul to live in a vessel you care nothing about is a form of blasphemy. I'm not saying strive for perfection but a healthy respect should at least be attained.

Also, we are here. Here is reality. We are not evolved as long as we are here. When we evolve, will will cease to be here. We are not 'soul only' as long as we are here and while we are here we have to live by the laws of here. Those laws clearly state that physical matter will rot unless cared for. So it follows that the expectation of living here is caring for your matter. Pretending you are living in a higher realm when you are here is still pretending.

Jennifer

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

I'm not trying to change anyone, but for what it's worth, I'm on the side of your friend - I also try not to have any medical intervention - and that includes teeth, eyes, and anything else.

Non intervention may cause more suffering, but in the long term, one is more likely to become aware of the root causes of the conditions, rather than hiding them by simply alleviating the signs and symptoms.
I am aware that this is considered to be an extreme view by the majority, but as someone who has been involved with self development for years, I have learned an awful lot from my body which I would never have learned had I used medical intervention to hide what my body was trying to tell me. In my experience, in the long term it has made me very inwardly strong.
It all depends on what your priorities are.
Most people just want to get on with living and forget about their bodies, but that is not my approach.
I've reached the stage where I trust my body - If it produces a symptom, I know that it is something I have done to cause it, and I try to learn from it's reactions - Dreams are a great source of wisdom to learn about your body/mind, if you know how to understand them.
I think that 'heart' problems are often the result of not being in touch with one's emotions, and exercise and lack of stress, make the blood thinner.
Personally, nowadays, I'm just not interested in the scientific 'bottom up' analytical approach to healing. I see the body as a whole and philsophically, use a 'top down' approach, trusting my body

I tend to agree here to an extent. Ussually what is really best for our bodies isn't medicine at all, but healthy living/removal of the cause/letting the body heal itself.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

It’s like the joke about the man who has been notified that his house is going to be flooded and he needs to get out of the house. He says no I don’t have to, God is going to take care of me. Then the flood starts to rise and a sheriff comes along and tells him to get out. The man says no, God is going to save me. So, the floods continue to rise, and he climbs on top of the house. A boat comes along and he’s told to climb into the boat. He says, no, no , God is going to save me. Finally, a helicopter comes along and they lower the net to rescue him. The man says, no, no, God is going to save me! Well, the man drowns and goes to heaven. When he gets to heaven he says to God, "why didn’t you save me?" God says, "I sent the sheriff, I sent a boat, I sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?" There is a point at which we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

I heard this but it started with "a blond woman" (aaah those poor blond women). It really makes me smile that joke thanks for sharing it.

[Alan1986]

You should take medicine, but you should educate yourself about it. Do some research into the uses, correct dosages, side effects and carcinogenic/teratogenic potential. These tasks are not as difficult as they seem. You can get all these information on the internet. Some drugs companies are not very ethical that they may not put their customers' health as their first priority. And medical errors are possible. By the way, some tablets cannot be crushed. If you do so, you will get an overdose.

Do not expect any medicine to be a miracle pill. You need to watch what you eat (natural, minimally processed, organic would be great) and exercise.

These actions send signals to the universe that you want your health, then the reality of what you choose will present itself to you.

[modernthing]

I believe that rejecting medicine is quite a reductive view of life itself, as a whole : to my knowledge, good food is like medicine, if one takes good care of their body through the way they eat and their life hygiene (regular sport etc) then, the need for actual "science medicine" as such is tremendously reduced. I've read various reports/studies that show the fact that medicine is nowadays actually curing people from a lot of "societal" diseases, which are often linked to the bad habits in which people tend to eat or live, so better care has a huge impact on our lives, yes.

Yes Alan, indeed, educating yourself is a very interesting solution. I am now doing so through books about diet and nutrition, the facts are so interesting and amazing !

I do understand the point of view of some people who think that medicine (at least the way it is practiced today) is not "natural", and sometimes intrusive, though, healing through plants is the ancestry and is the way it was done in the old days. The difference is that it was living medicine for living beings. This is not a criticism of modern medicine, but doctors don't question as much as they used to, nowadays, many medication sales incentives replace the real doctor/patient relationship.
Modern medicine often tends to forget to take into account a lot of aspects about living things, it is reductive in the way it sees us, often, as nutrients, cells, pounds of flesh and bones, and not the immensity and metaphysical aspect of our beings. (mind-body correlation)

Now, as someone mentionned, if God gave us the capacity to care for ourselves and for others, then why should we not do so ? Would we leave a child on the side of the road to die and not interfer, simply "because it is God's will" ?
What kind of reasoning is this, on what is it based ? Are we not responsible for one another as humans who are part of the same "whole" ??
In French, we have a saying that goes like this : "Help yourself, and Heavens will help you". It gives a lot of room for thinking.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

There is a point at which we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

This doesn't go along with your story. Your story isn't about us taking responsibility for ourselves. It's about recognizing and accepting God's helping hand. It's admitting that we are incapable of taking on the entirety of responsibility all by ourselves and we sometimes need help. It's a very NON "independent lifestyle" sort of joke, so I love it.

That in mind, I believe that God had a hand in teaching mankind about medicine. Refusing the help of doctors is indeed a lot like the man in your story who refused help from rescuers.

[spacedout]

I forgot that I posted this thread until I saw it near the top on this forum, thanks to the new posters. I went back and re-read the posts and want to thank each and everyone of you for doing so. It is food for thought.

Starman says, "There is another way to look at this." My friend is thinking of himself and if he used medicine to prolong his life he could be helping others. I asked my friend exactly that question. He is a very spiritual person and teaches meditation at a prison. I mentioned to him that if he took medicine he could possibly extend his life and spread his wisdom and knowledge to more people. He said he was not interested in extending his life, because what ever happens, happens, and it is preordained. He said he should not interfere with what is. Even though I disagree with him I respect his belief.

Martyn13 had a good point that with nonintervention one can get to the root of the problem through awareness of the body. By listening to the body we can learn a lot about ourselves. I totally agree with this. For years I refused to take medicine for my heart's arrhythmia until I got to the point of not being able to figure it out. That's when a doctor prescribed an antiarrhythmic drug and even then I would cut it in half. What I have discovered is that my condition is hereditary. My mother had the same condition and both of my brothers do. So I can be aware of the problem but that doesn't help. I prefer to live so I can help others.

Like MiBeloved says in a post above, "Each person has his or her own way of looking at life." We must each follow our own patch.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by spacedout

A friend of mine is a man from India and believes in Christian Science and Karma. He has had two strokes and has a problem with his speech but refuses to take any medicine that could help his speech as well as help prolong his life. I have had a TIA (small stroke) and take blood thinner and heart medication. My friend's comment is that he his not his body and everything should be left up to God - what ever happens is God's will. I also believe that I am not my body, but since I have been given this body I should take care of it as best I can much like I take care of my dogs, my car, my wife, etc. These are two totally different perspectives concerning the body. I would like to know your thoughts on this subject.

God cannot do for you what you can do for yourself, period! In other words ‘ What is possible with man is impossible with God and what is impossible with man is possible to God’

[Trezker]

One saying about god that keeps coming back to me is "God helps those who help themselves"

That is something I really like. Don't expect God to lift a finger for your sake before you get own ass off the couch. Also, it's a thing that can be inerpreted differently depending on your beliefs.

It is true that once you get started, things often seem to progress much more easily than you thought it would. Some people say that's because God is helping, others say it's because your expectations were pessimistic.

But one thing remains true no matter what. You wont get closer to your goal unless YOU move towards it. No external force will volunteer to drag your ass where you want.

[nicbrahms]

This is a matter of faith, if he truly believes it then so be it.

However, I do think mind over matter can and does prevail with the body, if he believes that God will heal him and make him healthy.

Then chances are he will make himself healthy and well.

Apportioning responsibility to God is just another way of saying I know it will be taken care of and ok. Although as said on this thread, we are all God, and so he is not wrong in saying that God will take care of it. Cause he will heal himself with his belief and the strength of his mind. LOA at its finest.

In effect when you refer to God, it could be that it is our higher self really. As it is.

Toodles.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

This doesn't go along with your story. Your story isn't about us taking responsibility for ourselves. It's about recognizing and accepting God's helping hand.

I don't see a difference. Recognizing and accepting help when needed IS taking responsibility for ourselves. It's something we choose to do. Even from a Christian perspective, salvation isn't automatic. A Christian needs to choose to accept it. A Christian has that personal responsibility.

[tradewiz50]

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by newsbone

God cannot do for you what you can do for yourself, period! In other words ‘ What is possible with man is impossible with God and what is impossible with man is possible to God’

Totally completely 100% not true.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Trezker

One saying about god that keeps coming back to me is "God helps those who help themselves"

Try finding that in the Bible. You won't find it because it stands contrary to everything the Bible teaches us about God. We are to put our faith in Him, not in ourselves.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

I don't see a difference. Recognizing and accepting help when needed IS taking responsibility for ourselves. It's something we choose to do. Even from a Christian perspective, salvation isn't automatic. A Christian needs to choose to accept it. A Christian has that personal responsibility.

Well, yes he does. But I still disagree with your wording: "There is a point at which we have to take responsibility for ourselves." If I lock my keys in the car, I have to ask for help, call a wrecker or locksmith. That might be taking responsibility, but it's not exactly taking things into my own hands is it? It's giving the responsibility of opening my car to someone else.

[modernthing]

your example is not pertinent either because you refer to the fact of taking action, for someone else to step in, so the locksmith is still the direct result of the person calling him and paying him in order to get the car keys back... so it is direct result from your actions, you could try to force the car window because you don't want to waste money on the locksmith (some people would not saying you personally would do that though...) , others would try to go with a cloth hanger through the tiny window opening (they may think that perhaps they stand a chance ) and will end up with nothing in the end... and will still call the locksmith, but will have wasted hours before doing so

[SmartAlx]

You misunderstand.  I think you're getting our arguments mixed up.  I said that the story is about recognizing and accepting help when we need it, not about taking action.  The story is not about the person making water wings out of his pants and swimming to shore.  My example isn't about you being proactive, and even if you want it to match up better with the original story, let's say you need a jump start and someone sees you there with the hood of your car up.  You refuse his help.  You might refuse the services from a wrecker because he'll charge you a stupid $50 for a jump start.  I would refuse a wrecker but I wouldn't refuse the help from a good Samaritan for help.  Anyway, this new and improved example is also about recognizing when you need help and accepting it when it is offered.  It is also not about taking responsibility.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

But I still disagree with your wording.

Well, if you stop disagreeing, you may find things are more agreeable.

Joking aside, we seem to be talking more about semantics now. I understand how you're using the word "responsibility" and I think you understand mine.

Angie, I like the rubber duck on your web site. Just thought you should know.

[Plato]

I only read the title of this thread.

My thought was: how are they different?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Joking aside, we seem to be talking more about semantics now. I understand how you're using the word "responsibility" and I think you understand mine.

Actually I don't. I thought we were both talking about the same definition of responsibility.

I think a semantic argument is when you argue over the name??? The word? But you agree on the definition. Or is it the opposite? Where you use the same word but disagree on the definition. I guess we are arguing over the definition, but for some reason it doesn't feel like a semantic argument to me. I guess 'cause I don't understand what you mean by responsibility.

Can you clarify that for me?