Do clones have their own souls?

[Joshiepoo3000]

I think clones may be made from the identical genes as their "parent" but I think they would have their own soul. I cannot imagine them being grown and being human. In that case they would be mindless or soul-less in other words. If they are born then they would have their own soul. Similar to a twin, but synthetic and possibly injected, and a twin to the "parent." Maybe it is an impossible product of our imagination like time travel. Maybe it would be a flesh robot no matter what and be impossible to make human.

[smallstar]

Cheers,

Interesting. So you say that identical twins have no souls, since they are clones of each other (or they, together, share just one soul). What if an embryo is divided by doctors at an early stage and both parts survive - do they have souls, or not? If the division is made at a later stage - at which point does the new one cease to have a soul? This produces an endless question, ending in doing the division by taking one cell from the adult, and finally taking one live cell from a recently dead person.

Actually, I think your question qualifies as a demarcation question - as there is no clear demarcation, it just ridicules your definition of the concept 'soul', and suggests that we either re-define the concept more relatedly to the brain, or drop it altogether.

-SS (Mood 1)

[Joshiepoo3000]

Originally Posted by smallstar

So you say that identical twins have no souls, since they are clones of each other (or they, together, share just one soul).

Twins are not clones. I said they were "similar." I am saying they are similar in that the child would be the twin to the "parent." I question the whole things possibility.

Originally Posted by smallstar

What if an embryo is divided by doctors at an early stage and both parts survive - do they have souls, or not? If the division is made at a later stage - at which point does the new one cease to have a soul?

I don't see how you can have an embryo of a clone in the first place. As far as actual beings are concerned, the question is, at what point does life begin? Why does it matter when it begins? The only thing that matters is that it begins. The only thing that matters is that the mind, or soul, steers the body. Has this division actually been done? What happened? If it hasn't, then I think a synthetic division would kill the embryo. An embryo splits naturally because the genes determined that would happen. Of course I can just say, "God determined the genes would determine the embryo's split into twins," but people can't stand God, so I will try and refrain from that so much. I just can't help myself.

Originally Posted by smallstar

Actually, I think your question qualifies as a demarcation question - as there is no clear demarcation, it just ridicules your definition of the concept 'soul', and suggests that we either re-define the concept more relatedly to the brain, or drop it altogether.

The only demarcation of the soul is its placement in the body. There is no gland that holds the mind. The brain has seperate parts that operate individually. How are they interconnected to operate in harmony? Where are the tied ends? If it were just about the brain and not the soul, then the mind would not die without the body. There would be no mind. I am no doctor, but it is common sense that no one knows why the heart beats and where the brain gets the energy to think. Everything needs an ignition. What ignites the brain and the heart if it is not the soul?

[Matthew Shea]

Identical twins have identical DNA by definition. They are the result of an egg splitting after being fertilized by a single sperm. They ARE, for all intents and purposes, clones of each other in the same way that, if someone were to clone me, that clone would have my same DNA. Having said that, all humans are bound to have a soul no matter how they were conceived, whether in a lab or in a mother's womb. It makes no difference.

[Angela]

Joshiepoo, at first glance I thought the title of your thread was "Do Clowns Have Souls?" and I had my first good laugh of the day. I had to deal with some real clowns at a show last night, and they disturbed my wa.

Thanks!

[Trina]

What is a soul anyway? Wouldn't there have to be a recognized definition of soul before you can answer that?

To me, a soul is nothing more than consciousness. So yes, clones have souls.

Clones are people two.

[elainevdw]

Whoever is interested in this topic should read the novel "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro (a British author).

Amazon.com: Never Let Me Go (Alex Awards (Awards)): Books: Kazuo Ishiguro

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by Trina

What is a soul anyway? Wouldn't there have to be a recognized definition of soul before you can answer that?

To me, a soul is nothing more than consciousness. So yes, clones have souls.

Clones are people two.

On this board, many will argue that there is but ONE consciousness; so by your definition, they would argue there is but ONE soul.

I say that perhaps we could use the term "soul" to differentiate individual spirit personalities from the OUC (One Universal Consciousness) from whom we supposedly all emerge.

To illustrate, I've come up with a new analogy that I think helps to visually describe physical incarnation of the OUC.

Imagine an infinitely wide ocean, where the water represents the infinite consciousness that is the OUC.

The OUC wishes to know itself from "without," but there's a problem. There IS NO "without." All That Is is the OUC and Its own awareness from within. Therefore, the OUC must create a way to fool itself into believing there's another "place" to be from which it can then observe itself from other perspectives.

The OUC creates a Space-Time illusion by slowing Its vibrational state from mind energy into solid matter.

However, the OUC knows that the illusion cannot maintain the slower vibrational state on its own, so it must all remain connected by the OUC's mind energy.

When the Space-Time illusion universe is finally stabilized, the OUC begins to explore it from within the vessels of more and more complex physical organisms. We call them BODIES. I like to call my body my "Earth Suit." Just as an astronaut cannot sustain his existence in space without a space suit, nor can a mind-energy being sustain existence in Space-Time without an "Earth Suit," if you will. A vessel capable of containing consciousness and moving it around at will within the time-space environment is essential for any meaningful exploration of the physical universe.

Over aeons, the OUC tinkered and experimented with more and more complex earth suits, and eventually, the human being version Mark IV became the earth suit of choice for deities everywhere.

Now, I haven't forgotten my ocean analogy. So we have the OUC -- represented by the infinite waters of the ocean -- wishing to enter into an alien environment, which we will represent with the land and air above the ocean.

Within the waters, imagine that parts are slowed down to form cups -- containers -- that then rise up and move about at will on land and in the air. As they rise, they fill with some of the water, and therefore carry a small portion of the OUC around with them at all times. This water is their life force and each cup has a viewport and other sensors so that the few ounces of water can perceive its surroundings.

The cup of water begins to notice other cups of water moving about in this alien landscape, and after a few years, begins to think itself as SEPERATE from all the other cups of water. It decorates itself to express its individuality, and soon forgets that its true identity is the water within, but rather the cup itself.

After millions of years, the society of cups has learned enough about their new space-time universe to actually begin to fabricate new cups at will, rather than the seemingly natural way that new cups used to just rise up out of the ocean.

But because the space-time universe is in actuality just an illusion, and is in truth made of the same water that forms the infinite ocean, when the cup people engineer their first synthetic cup, it cannot help but come into being already filled with water because that is what holds it together in the first place.

The cup people are not inventing a new technology. They are nothing more than subsets of the OUC that have become duped into believing they are individuals because of the containers that hold them. They are all the SAME water, and are simply creating containers at a much slower and macro-level process than they did as the OUC who works much faster in a mind-only dimension.

The created cup-container need not be filled once created -- either by cup or OUC -- for the water that fills it was already there long before the cup became solid matter. It's no different than putting together a box from a flat piece of cardboard, then closing it up and calling it a package of air. The air was always there. But after a year in the garage, that same air will have its very own "identity" once you open the box and smell it.

Sorry if I'm mixing metaphors. But you should get this by now.

A clone will have as valid a "soul" as any other earth suit does. It's nothing more than a physical container that serves to create and sustain the illusion that the OUC is seperate from other parts of itself.

Same with dogs, cats, trees, orchids, sofas, and roommate's guitars. The only difference is the technology of the "suit." Suits that have physical BRAIN organs give the consciousness contained therein a much more illusory experience, and therefore a much greater sense of individuality and seperation. Simpler objects without brains or central nervous systems are also comprised of the same mind-energy consciousness, but only to the degree necessary to maintain cohesion, rather than experience, and are self-aware only at the most primitive levels.

I read somewhere around here or elsewhere, perhaps that...

"God sleeps within the rock; stirs within the plant; dreams within the animal; and awakens within the human being."

The more complex a container we humans are able to build, the more of a "soul" we will perceive it to have within.

This is where I question those who believe that the only purpose to life is to keep peeling the onion until we no longer see the containers that seperate us from finally realizing we're all the same OUC. It seems a bit illogical to me because it tends to assume that there's no purpose to our having separated into all these containers to begin with.

I believe there is great purpose to our illusion of separation from our true reality, and that while it's definitely a positive thing to understand this subconsciously, it's also important to maintain focus on our physical incarnations. After all, we didn't create space-time on a whim, and went to a lot of trouble to completely convince ourselves of this illusion. So does it really make a whole lot of sense to put so much energy into shattering it?

Either that, or the reality is like Morpheus told Neo; some race of machines created this illusion so they could use our bodies as batteries to power their machine cities. And if that's the case, well.... I'll have my filet medium rare, please.

~ RS

[Paul C]

Originally Posted by Trina

To me, a soul is nothing more than consciousness. So yes, clones have souls.

Yes. Would have to agree here. It's just when it becomes expressed in form do people then speak of separation. When truly, there is no real separation.

Maybe we could see the soul as a 'Perspective of consciousness from that of a living form' It's not separate from the whole but still has the ability to experience from a perceived, isolated standpoint. This would then give reason for the process of reincarnation .

Edit: Nice description above.

I also see reason for the illusion of form. But it's also important to embrace the formless aspect of consciousness as well to bring back a sense of true balance. While we're here though, we should appreciate and enjoy the bodies that we have (are?).

[Glass Joe]

I don't want to reiterate what others have already (better) explained. I just want to add that I think seamonkeys, skyscrapers, tornadoes, and memes all have souls too. If by "soul" we mean "Infinite Creative Intelligence and Evolutionary Organizing Power". But I suppose "soul" (or "Love") is just easier to say.

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

It's no different than putting together a box from a flat piece of cardboard, then closing it up and calling it a package of air. The air was always there. But after a year in the garage, that same air will have its very own "identity" once you open the box and smell it.

Good analogy. Never thought of it that way.

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

I read somewhere around here or elsewhere, perhaps that...

"God sleeps within the rock; stirs within the plant; dreams within the animal; and awakens within the human being."

The more complex a container we humans are able to build, the more of a "soul" we will perceive it to have within.

This is where I question those who believe that the only purpose to life is to keep peeling the onion until we no longer see the containers that seperate us from finally realizing we're all the same OUC. It seems a bit illogical to me because it tends to assume that there's no purpose to our having separated into all these containers to begin with.

I believe there is great purpose to our illusion of separation from our true reality, and that while it's definitely a positive thing to understand this subconsciously, it's also important to maintain focus on our physical incarnations. After all, we didn't create space-time on a whim, and went to a lot of trouble to completely convince ourselves of this illusion. So does it really make a whole lot of sense to put so much energy into shattering it?

Originally Posted by Paul C

I also see reason for the illusion of form. But it's also important to embrace the formless aspect of consciousness as well to bring back a sense of true balance.

I thought that both your comments on illusion were very helpful, at least for me. Thank you.

Basically, the more I think about it, illusion and reality are both necessary and complimentary aspects of the same Tao / Brahman / Kosmic Consciousness / Turtle-Stack / [insert your favorite label here]. There can't be reality without illusion, and there can't be illusion without reality. Or even more accurate (now that I think about it), there's neither reality nor illusion. It's all the same. "Reality" and "Illusion" are just lenses, just perspectives, for looking at the same exact thing.

Reading this thread also reminded me of a zen story I heard a while back but didn't quite understand:

Zen Student (quoting an old buddhist poem): "The voices of torrents are from one great tongue... the lions of the hills are the pure body of Buddha... Isn't that right?"
Zen Master: It is... but it's a pity to say so.

-- Alan Watts