Lets talk about reality using logic. No more "what ifs"
 

Key terms:
Real: 1. true; not merely ostensible, nominal, or apparent.
Exist: 1. to have a place in objective reality.
Enigma: 1. a puzzling or inexplicable occurrence or situation

Reality is Truth. What is real is true. Reality is split into two halves called subjective reality and objective reality. They are deemed realities because they are two parts of the same whole, but they have different characteristics and roles. They have boundaries. They do not "bleed" into each other. Look at them as the left half of the brain and the right half of the brain together making the whole brain.

Subjective Reality is the realm for the mind. It is our occurance for thoughts, ideas, and perceptions. Anything subjective to ourselves.
Objective Reality is time and space. It is the place things are found and the time things occur.

To know whether something is real or not, that something has to suffice both halves of reality. Subjective Reality is real, not only because it is a half of reality, but also because it occurs in time. It does not Exist, because it does not have a place in space. Objective reality is real, not only because it is a half of reality, but also because it IS time and space. It occurs and has a place in itself.

There is no noun "Existence." There is only to exist. A noun is a person, place, or a thing (object). A noun must be an object occuring and having a place in objective reality. Existence is not a person, place, or thing (object). Therefore existence does not exist. Reality is not to exist. Objective Reality does not exist, because it is the place and time for all things to exist in. Therefore reality does not exist, but to exist something must be real. Not all things that are real are to exist.

God does not exist, but God is real. God is an enigma.
God does not exist, because God is objective reality. Because God is objective reality, God is subjective reality and God is Reality. God is objective reality, because He is the "Alpha and Omega, what was, what is, and what is to be." This makes Him time and space. He is Subjective Reality, because subjective reality occurs in time. It has no space, but God is BOTH time AND space. God is thus Reality, because He IS both halves of Reality. Because God is real but does not exist, God is an enigma.

I would like to hear others ideas about this, especially atheists'. Because you do not believe in Him, you will not accept my ideas. You will try and pick them apart. Please pick them apart with something of relevance to what I say. Don't bother telling me everything is subjective, because I already know you will conclude that for the sake of not admitting God is real. Everything is not subjective and to say so is complete nonsense. Do not answer my questions with your questions, or I will answer your questions with my questions and we will get nowhere.:D

Thank you for a very interesting post!

I do sort of agree with what you have written.


Does objective reality include time? Because I think time exists as an effect of subjective reality. Time only exists subjective to us. I think God is beyond time, not that God IS time.

God "is" time, because of time's speed. The Bible says that God is timeless. If you can travel the speed of time, then you are timeless. Everything slower than time would hold still. The speed of light travels slightly slower than time. If you can travel light speed everything not traveling your speed moves much slower than you do. If you travel the speed of time, then nothing moves that isn't going the speed of time. Everything lasts forever. Time is only determined by the rate of the universes' expansion or retraction, because the universe expands and retracts at the speed of time. Time is not effected by our subjective reality, because the universe will be expanding and contracting whether we are subjected to it or not.

I like your world view better then Steves posts about subjective reality. But that was to be expected as I am a theist as well. Since you were looking for people to pick apart your ideas, you will have to look further ;-). Oh well, one thing. The "noun"-thing in your post does not seem to refer to nouns as in "grammer". Because "God" seems to be a noun, although according to your definitions I think it cannot be.

"A noun must be an object occuring and having a place in objective reality."

Says who? You write alot but you say so little.

Says you, if you had any sense. Is not a noun a person, place, or thing? And do not persons, places, and things have a place in time and space? If that says little, then that should say to you how little you know. No offense.

As I said before DoAnyOfYouExist, for the sake of not admitting God is real, nonbelievers will find any excuse to deny it. Keep the denial coming. I enjoy putting atheism in its place.

I think this reply is over the top. There are also nouns that denote more abstract "objects". For instance, "freedom" is a noun, but you will have a hard time locating that in time and space. You seem to be throwing away quite a lot of nouns this way. I think attempting to arrive at a consistent metaphysics by restricting sentences that are deemed meaningful is a dead end. It has been tried before.

You should be careful what you wish for. It may come true. In "pavlinguage" this is also known as "intention manifestation".

By the way, as a theist myself, I think that labelling God as an "enigma" is missing the point that the existence of God may very well be seen as clear an unpuzzling. It is humans that are the enigma...

Freedom and Existence are examples of nouns that do not exist. They are fictitous ideas. They are fictitous because they are ideas. Products of the imagination. They are necessary for use in the English language just as imaginary numbers are necessary in mathematics. Mathematics itself is imaginary and so is the English language. Reality is not "to exist." Something must be real to exist, but something does not have to exist to be real. God is real, but God does not exist. The word "freedom" is real, but it does not exist. Things that are entirely subjective are real, but they do not exist. I am saying that God is not entirely subjective, but God is real. I admit that I was harsh to DoAnyOfYouExist, but he frustrates me sometimes. I hope he understands. I know that I frustrate him too.

I do wish for it. I wish for constructive criticism. How can "intention manifestation" a bad thing if I wish to manifest constuctive criticism of my logic to reach truth? Personally I don't think Tropicality or any of the other people I really want to debate with will bring their dinner to my table. They don't like me because I am Christian. My religion is viewed as ignorant in their eyes. They discard my logic because they are afraid of believing in Jesus. I understand. People are afraid of what they might do. They look at the wars and atrocities in the name of religion and are afraid of what they might do with an excuse from this belief. They don't know Jesus like I do. They don't trust Him, because they don't trust themselves with Him. They think they might hurt someone and think Jesus told them to do it. Worst of all they are afraid that they will believe themselves that Jesus told them to hurt someone. It can be a very scary thing, unless you know Jesus.

Please keep in mind that I think "existence" does not exist, and that God does not exist, however; I like what you are saying here about humans. This is something to think about. This may be a paradox and I think paradox's and parables are perfect truths. If you can, either prove to me using your logic that humans are enigmas, or fault my logic by using my logic in this scenario, I would appreciate it. Is it possible that both God and humans are enigmas? I am not interested in discarding the truth because it tastes bad in our mouths. If it is truth, then I want to know it.

Lol Josh you do not frustrate me at all. I am in a state of complete contentment throughtout everyday...everything is so very humerous the way it all comes together...I am loving life and you talking about god and jesus doesn't frustrate me. Your circular logic on the other had does tend to put my brain off.

Well lets use some circular logic. According to you(and I would agree for now, cuz I haven't seen the full truth yet) God is an enigma. Human is made in the image of the Father(God). So this logic would lead me to believe if God is an enigma and humans are made from that enigma then they to would be an enigma...has modern science completely figured out how the human brain fully functions? No...there for humans are also enigmas along with many other things.

I don't understand your logic when you say that because something is an idea, it doesn't exist. If you want to get right down to it, just about everything you look at is an idea. For example, look at a book. A book is just a collection of matter. The idea, that it is a book, is just a concept. It is an aggregate of parts, and we choose to call those parts, when organized in a certain fashion, a book. So, it seems from your perspective, books do not exist, but a collection of matter that resembles this "fictitious idea" of a book does exist. However, mathematics, in my humble opinion, is true regardless of where you are. The quantity of seven will always be seven, but the symbol we use to represent that quantity is subject to the preference of whoever counts that quantity. I would agree with you there. And language also is just a series of symbols agreed upon by convention. I'm just trying to understand your point is all.

Okay, well, I think your argument would be helped immensely if you gave us your clear cut definition of what "real" means to you. If we all just sit here and argue, without using same definitions for things as fundamental to the discussion as the notion of "real", it can really only result in argument rather than discussion. You just said that things that are entirely subjective are real, but they don't exist. However, up above you said that ideas were not real because they were fictiousess and imaginary (i.e. subjective). This like saying (A) is not (B), however (B) is (A). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rip you apart, I'm just a little hung up on your definitions because they are not following any structure.

I could be way off base here, Josh, but I've read quite a few of the posts on this site, and I don't recall ever seeing Tropicality or any of the others say they hated or disliked you. They simply disagree with your logic is all. And I have no problem with Christians as people, I used to be a hardcore Christian myself. And most of the people I know and love (my family included) are Christian. So I have enormous compassion for people with Christian beliefs. However, I don't agree with that belief system anymore for various reasons. I have noticed that many Christians seem to derive power from placing themselves in the victim chair, for some reason. That's not intended to be a criticism, just an observation that doesn't apply to all Christians.

Joshiepoo - Logic is not where you will ultimately find the truth you are looking for. However, it is a process you must go through on your journey because it will eventually lead you to the paradox that will force you to move from "reason" to "unconditional love" on the scale of consciousness. In order to make that breakthrough you will need to truly experience subjective reality for yourself. Right now you are looking through the lens of objective reality and trying to make sense of the concepts of subjective reality so everything is getting totally distorted. It will remain that way until you can suspend your belief in objective reality long enough to truly experience subjective reality in the pure form at which time a sense of indescribable unity and pure love will flow through you and change you forever. Once you have experienced this change there is no going back because engaging at lower levels of conciousness no longer serves your needs. Those that have experienced unconditional love do not get drawn into logical debate because they know this is not where you will ultimately find your answers and at the same time they know it is exactly where you need to be on your journey right now. There is no judgment just the understanding that each person is on their own journey, each journey moves at its own pace, no journey is any better or worse than any other journey and every journey leads to the exact same place. This is the unconditional love that Jesus taught. And Buddha taught. And Krishna taught. Everything comes into alignment and there is peace.

"Noun" is also an example of a noun that does not exist. And "reality" is an example of "noun" that is also an example of a noun that does not exist.

This is all very fun & amusing on a Sunday afternoon, but I wonder if you will get a little lost wandering amidst your own thoughts and whether there is any practical value to be gained from all this.

I like this post Godot! I think it shows clear levels of intelligence and logical thinking that are great!

However I am unsure on what you believe about The Law of Attraction. Is this an area where you have no experience? From what you say about One reality not bleeding into each other I think thats your way of saying you don't believe. But I can say I have done it! So it must work somewhere. And as accurate as your model of reality may seem to a naive or unaware person. To those of us who have experienced things outside of this model, you are totally shunning things you can't explain away with simple facts. Don't do that.

Ahh! Why didn't you say that in the first place. You're using CHRISTIAN logic! That explains a lot.

Christian Logic is quite difficult for non-Christians to grasp because it asks the scientific mind to deny all that makes sense to it, and to accept concepts that fly in the face of plain, old "secular" logic.

For example, Christian Logic teaches us that although Jesus told us to "Judge not lest ye be judged," it's perfectly okay to persecute gay people because some pre-Jesus prophet proclaimed homosexuality an abomination in Leviticus, from the OLD testament.

It's extremely difficult for Christians to follow Christ's example since their churches LONG for, well... JUDGMENT DAY! They keep getting mixed messages from their own holy scriptures.

How do Christians sort out the paradox of belief in a God that is LESS spiritually and morally evolved than many humans? They don't. THEY are the ones who FEAR. They are, in fact, so dominated by their fear of damnation that they would happily toss their own children into Hell rather than risk even the mere THOUGHT that just maybe not every one of their ancient holy words came straight from the mouth of God.

Of course, I'm referring mainly to the fundamentalists, but I know of whom I speak. Sorry to come off so harsh, but the very idea non-Christians are AFRAID to believe in Jesus?!! Christianity is all about FEAR.

Newsflash: I'm NOT Christian, yet I believe in Jesus. Just as I believe in Buddha and other "ascended masters." But other than being WAY more enlightened than most humans, Jesus is no more God than you or I.

Sorry, but I just love to put arrogant fundamentalists in their place. ;)

~ RS

What place is that, if you don't mind my asking?

Joshiepoo has been banned, I guess you knew.