Raising awareness changes interests

[Keeper]

Hey,

I've been doing lots of spiritually stuff lately and I feel like I've started to come quite abit now on my way to enlightenment. I've studied mainly buddhism out of curiousity and it have changed alot inside me.

I can for example, via meditation, get to a super-happy state. I get this feeling of not being here and this world is not what it seems. Simply put - I can turn myself info the now almost 100% and stop almost all my thoughts for a very long time. Not whole days but many hours atleast.

the problem is. I think I'm in a huge fight with my ego atm. Since before I "evolved" this much in this area I used to train lots of martial arts, mostly muay thai. It used to be very funny and I almost overtrained. But anyhow, now when I think of going back to the training I feel, in just a second, completely emptied of energy and lust. It feels like the reason I was training this martial art was to strenghten my ego... And now when I slowly kill my ego there is no good reason to go train that anymore...

On a spiritual level I know the right choise is not to train. It will only keep me down, preventing any success in the enlightment area. But... On the other hand my ego is going completely nuts over this. "come on, train you laze devil. You'll get lazy and fat if you dont start to train NOW!!!"

I have this gutfeeling... I know I will reach enlightenment pretty soon if I follow my heart and do the right choises....

I find myself ripped between these two emotions. Have you guys had the same experience with enlightenment and physical training?

Are you bound to a life without training when seeking enlightenment?

[wolfgang]

I'm trying to sort out something of the same - not with training but with wanting or desire in general. I'm starting to think this business of ditching things that support the ego is bunk. The only thing to ditch might be to not feel like you NEED what the ego is desiring.

Why would the super being or an enlightened state not be involved with pursuing desires? Maybe it's all about not being attached to whatever is desired (in your case you desire martial arts training) and I wouldn't say stopping what you like doing is going to be part of waking up.

If we all stopped what we like doing, is that how we would wake up?

[spacedout]

Originally Posted by Keeper

the problem is. I think I'm in a huge fight with my ego atm. Since before I "evolved" this much in this area I used to train lots of martial arts, mostly muay thai. It used to be very funny and I almost overtrained. But anyhow, now when I think of going back to the training I feel, in just a second, completely emptied of energy and lust. It feels like the reason I was training this martial art was to strenghten my ego... And now when I slowly kill my ego there is no good reason to go train that anymore...

This is a an excellent question and a very good observation of the (s)elf and the ego. One of the characteristics of the ego is to maintian a positive self image. The ego will defend and protect this identity at all times and at almost all costs. The ego does not want the (S)elf to be exposed, so it will reappear as something else; another thought, another concept, another bias or just about anything to remain alive and well. Once you begin to see the ego for what it really is, an illusion, you will begin to lose energy because the (s)elf is being lost. Once the (S)elf is fully present, new energy will flow in, and the body and the mind can do anything they want as a complete unit, but observed as a curosity by the (S)elf. So, the you can still do muay thai, or anything else, without attachment. Let it just happen and don't resist. Be happy and be full!

[Keeper]

thanks for the replies. I'm athome now instead of going to the muay thai training. It's really hard to explain the feeling. When I just "is" I get this enormous feeling of satisfaction, like I dont need anything in the world. I live fully present and meditation is an activity I'm looking forward to just asmuch as I was looking forward to the MT-training before. Just because I know how great I feel when it go right.

I have done small experiments with myself the last few days. If I let the ego enter and be present I can, once again, feel energy and happieness to the training. But at the same time I feel I'm loosing myself. I'm taking huge steps backwards/down on my awareness level. Like I'm an airplane landing or something... The glimmering/sparkling energy of being present is replaced with an energy of being a "fighter" - huge ego boost.
It's these two states I'm struggeling between. I know wich one is best for "me" but they both seems so appealing. I have to make a big sacrifice to continue the path of enlightenment. I have to let go on the whole self-image I had and all that came with it.

Actually I dont feel I'm going down when thinking of doing different exercises like running or lifting weights. Aslong as I'm doing it just to take care of my body. Not to get attention for what I do.

Perhaps I'll put the MT on the shelf for some time and see how it feels like when I've come abit further. But for now I dont think I can continue the path I was on when I started practicing these spiritual stuff.

thanks

[themaster]

The ego is your reality construct.. maybe you need to go train just to make adjustments in the ego..

Or in other words I said.. The ego is a part of you.. and don't reject the self.. incorporate.. don't define the "ego" as a problem.. for then you create a "problem"

[Keeper]

Wolf:
I hear you but in this particular case I think you maybe have to stop any activity whose interest has been fed by the ego alone. Ofcourse I can train MT but now I think perhaps it's too attached to my ego and it's desires. As soon as I think of the training the ego pops back and it lowers my awareness to 0 it feels like.
Maybe I should not train have trined that at all, it was just the ego that came up with the idea in the frst place to get some boost.

Only future will tell.

Thanks

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Keeper

Wolf:
I hear you but in this particular case I think you maybe have to stop any activity whose interest has been fed by the ego alone.

Yeah that's the typical idea - stop what the activity is that feeds the ego. I am trying to see through that because it seems that it's not the activity but something about the attitude being brought to the activity that needs changing.

Ofcourse I can train MT but now I think perhaps it's too attached to my ego and it's desires. As soon as I think of the training the ego pops back and it lowers my awareness to 0 it feels like.
Maybe I should not train have trined that at all, it was just the ego that came up with the idea in the frst place to get some boost.

Only future will tell.

Thanks

I wonder if your meditation feelings are also an ego boost. Are you feeling proud of becoming spiritual?

Another thought I had was aren't a lot of martial arts exactly about getting the ego out of the way? That if you are full of the ego while doing it, that actually causes you to not be in balance and not as effective. You would be always wanting the attention instead of paying attention.

But if it's no great loss to give it up for you... and pick it up later in a different way - sounds fine too.

[Ariel Bravy]

Originally Posted by Keeper

the problem is. I think I'm in a huge fight with my ego atm. Since before I "evolved" this much in this area I used to train lots of martial arts, mostly muay thai. It used to be very funny and I almost overtrained. But anyhow, now when I think of going back to the training I feel, in just a second, completely emptied of energy and lust. It feels like the reason I was training this martial art was to strenghten my ego... And now when I slowly kill my ego there is no good reason to go train that anymore...

Yeah, it's really common it seems for people to start losing their passions.

It's like as the ego starts to fall away, any ego-fueled activities naturally start to fall away in the process.

Was your training being done in order to achieve a sense of superiority or to compete with others? If so, that stuff will naturally just kinda dissolve and it will seem like you're losing your passion.

Yet a life devoid of passion is not life. This passionless existence is just a stage, but a very normal one it seems.

When we let go of the struggle against life that the ego creates to become better in some way, there then happens to be this sort of natural balanced restingpoint of just nothingness.

With no resistance to life, life itself then activates and flows through the body. If the inspiration to train arises once again, it does so out of life's natural desire to express itself through this physical body, to feel the flow of energy as your body does its thing. It's a joy of experiencing life being lived in the moment. This has nothing to do with ego. It's just pure aliveness in the now.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Maybe it's all about not being attached to whatever is desired (in your case you desire martial arts training)

Bingo. It's about being willing to allow life to be as it is, willing to allow any facet of all that is to express itself if that's what arises in the moment.

Do what you love, but be attached to none of it. As our attachment to something falls away, for some reason it seems to feel like our whole motivation to do it in the first place is what is lost, as if we should stop doing it.

It's similar to how as the ego dies, it literally feels like YOU are dying.

"You must be willing to die before you die and find that there is no death."

"Those who want to keep their life will lose it. Those who are willing to lose their life will find it."

There is certainly a choice to do what you want, but deeper than this there arises a complete and total willingness to allow all possibilities to be just as valid. To resist no outcome. This is surrender.

Originally Posted by Keeper

Are you bound to a life without training when seeking enlightenment?

You are bound to nothing. There is nothing but you to be bound to. There is no one but you to bind you.

It's nothing forced upon you, but a willingness to step into allowance consciously out of your own free will.

The interesting thing is that when we start letting go of trying to mold ourselves into a life that our minds think we *should* be living, there is a space created that allows us to live our life naturally from our soul's deepest desires. This life is SO much more fulfilling than living a mind-centered life.

[Eric Roosevelt]

Keeper, how exactly does physical training prevent you from moving towards "enlightment"? Physical exercise stimulates your physiology, increases your respiration and thereby also your clarity of thought. It seems to like it could be a useful tool for you, actually. On the other hand, since you say you have a gut feeling about the situation, I would of course advise you to go with that.

I agree with the previous posters saying that completely removing the ego isn't a good idea. However, I think we can emotionally detach ourselves from it to some extent, and see it "from a distance", so to speak. We can observe what it wants without associating it with the intense feelings it can otherwise produce. I've noticed recently that a lot of psychological discomfort does actually stem from the ego, or more specifically the fear that others may passing judgements on us.

[aphorist]

@keeper Losing passions which were ego driven is a very natural part of the process. As many have said, you have to die before you die to awaken to life. Currently, you are letting go of the power ego, the lusting egoic part of yourself. What I do catch in your posts is your new attachment to your spiritual ego, which is a normal stage also. You explain it as 2 egos fighting within yourself.

Just recognize, that eventually even your spiritual ego will also have to be let go to reach full enlightenment.

If I'm reading correctly, right now you find greater 'happiness' or 'joy' in your spiritual ego, and that's why you are shedding your old egoic ways. My question to you, which you should ask yourself, is why are you after this goal of enlightenment? Where does this want come from? Once you know why you are on this path, you will know how far you are willing to go, and what sacrifices you'll have to make.

Until you know why, you should not continue. As much as everyone may say otherwise, enlightenment is not the ultimate goal of life. It is not something to blindly pursue without knowing why. There are some posts above saying not to fully remove ego, but they are speaking from their personal experiences. If you know why you are fully removing ego, full disintegration is attainable.

[Keeper]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Yeah that's the typical idea - stop what the activity is that feeds the ego. I am trying to see through that because it seems that it's not the activity but something about the attitude being brought to the activity that needs changing.


I wonder if your meditation feelings are also an ego boost. Are you feeling proud of becoming spiritual?

Another thought I had was aren't a lot of martial arts exactly about getting the ego out of the way? That if you are full of the ego while doing it, that actually causes you to not be in balance and not as effective. You would be always wanting the attention instead of paying attention.

But if it's no great loss to give it up for you... and pick it up later in a different way - sounds fine too.

That's right. Many of the martial arts around is based on letting ego go. But not this kind of ego I think. Especially muay thai-camps take kids that have taken the wrong path in life and show them to treat other with respect etc. But the ego is still there, although you are not running around kicking everyones butt on the streets anymore.

Originally Posted by Ariel Bravy

Yeah, it's really common it seems for people to start losing their passions.

It's like as the ego starts to fall away, any ego-fueled activities naturally start to fall away in the process.

Was your training being done in order to achieve a sense of superiority or to compete with others? If so, that stuff will naturally just kinda dissolve and it will seem like you're losing your passion.

Yet a life devoid of passion is not life. This passionless existence is just a stage, but a very normal one it seems.

When we let go of the struggle against life that the ego creates to become better in some way, there then happens to be this sort of natural balanced restingpoint of just nothingness.

With no resistance to life, life itself then activates and flows through the body. If the inspiration to train arises once again, it does so out of life's natural desire to express itself through this physical body, to feel the flow of energy as your body does its thing. It's a joy of experiencing life being lived in the moment. This has nothing to do with ego. It's just pure aliveness in the now.



Bingo. It's about being willing to allow life to be as it is, willing to allow any facet of all that is to express itself if that's what arises in the moment.

Do what you love, but be attached to none of it. As our attachment to something falls away, for some reason it seems to feel like our whole motivation to do it in the first place is what is lost, as if we should stop doing it.

It's similar to how as the ego dies, it literally feels like YOU are dying.

"You must be willing to die before you die and find that there is no death."

"Those who want to keep their life will lose it. Those who are willing to lose their life will find it."

There is certainly a choice to do what you want, but deeper than this there arises a complete and total willingness to allow all possibilities to be just as valid. To resist no outcome. This is surrender.



You are bound to nothing. There is nothing but you to be bound to. There is no one but you to bind you.

It's nothing forced upon you, but a willingness to step into allowance consciously out of your own free will.

The interesting thing is that when we start letting go of trying to mold ourselves into a life that our minds think we *should* be living, there is a space created that allows us to live our life naturally from our soul's deepest desires. This life is SO much more fulfilling than living a mind-centered life.

You got it right there. I've been training to gain superiority over others. Now that feelings are going away and I simply see no point anymore in proving something that I'm better then the next guy. To win there have to be a looser... I dont know but to me it's not right to make a looser out of someone.

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

Keeper, how exactly does physical training prevent you from moving towards "enlightment"? Physical exercise stimulates your physiology, increases your respiration and thereby also your clarity of thought. It seems to like it could be a useful tool for you, actually. On the other hand, since you say you have a gut feeling about the situation, I would of course advise you to go with that.

I agree with the previous posters saying that completely removing the ego isn't a good idea. However, I think we can emotionally detach ourselves from it to some extent, and see it "from a distance", so to speak. We can observe what it wants without associating it with the intense feelings it can otherwise produce. I've noticed recently that a lot of psychological discomfort does actually stem from the ego, or more specifically the fear that others may passing judgements on us.

I know exacly what you meen there. To see it from a distance. I've had that experience a numerous times now and it feels good! It's like I'm observing the world, not reacting to it. Really strange to explain but you get this endorfin-rush for several hours (or aslong as it lasts). It took me a long time to figure out what it was, but I think I'm getting closer. I can sometimes get myself into this state with purpose now.

Originally Posted by aphorist

@keeper Losing passions which were ego driven is a very natural part of the process. As many have said, you have to die before you die to awaken to life. Currently, you are letting go of the power ego, the lusting egoic part of yourself. What I do catch in your posts is your new attachment to your spiritual ego, which is a normal stage also. You explain it as 2 egos fighting within yourself.

Just recognize, that eventually even your spiritual ego will also have to be let go to reach full enlightenment.

If I'm reading correctly, right now you find greater 'happiness' or 'joy' in your spiritual ego, and that's why you are shedding your old egoic ways. My question to you, which you should ask yourself, is why are you after this goal of enlightenment? Where does this want come from? Once you know why you are on this path, you will know how far you are willing to go, and what sacrifices you'll have to make.

Until you know why, you should not continue. As much as everyone may say otherwise, enlightenment is not the ultimate goal of life. It is not something to blindly pursue without knowing why. There are some posts above saying not to fully remove ego, but they are speaking from their personal experiences. If you know why you are fully removing ego, full disintegration is attainable.

I wish I could give you, and me, a straight answer. But I cant. It's a feeling.
The closest I can write could be that I feel the capitalism that feeds the egos around the world is not the right way. I've grown up in a really capitalist family and I've seen with my own eyes how egos and money can destroy people. So I've turned to other directions to find peace in life and sofar what I've experienced of "this stuff" is better than I could have imagined.
Like I said above - I've had moments of this pure state of mind where nothing matters and I feel like a spectator to life. Just enjoying the show. My wish is to live my life like that fulltime. Not a couple of hours here and there as it is right now.
I cant say what it is but something tells me that is the way to live life. You dont stop thinking as people might think. You are rather in 100% control of your thoughts and actually, it seems to take some effort to think because your energy is used to something else. that's why the mind-chatter is kept to a minimum and only used when you order/need it. Everything is fun, even doing the dishes! =)

Thanks

[Ariel Bravy]

Originally Posted by Keeper

You got it right there. I've been training to gain superiority over others. Now that feelings are going away and I simply see no point anymore in proving something that I'm better then the next guy. To win there have to be a looser... I dont know but to me it's not right to make a looser out of someone.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I did karate for 11 years and competed on national and international levels. It was a defining aspect of my life.

Yet all that feels completely meaningless now. The joy is in the training, the experience in the moment, the flow of when you get "in the zone" and it's like the energy of life becomes you and you just do what you do without thinking.

In the experience here, the practice of martial arts hasn't resumed, but the deep appreciation for it remains as strong as ever. It feels like something that's basically wired into the experience of this lifetime and is something that can never be lost.

When I do go back and spar or do katas, I find that while my strength and endurance may have waned, my technique is just as sharp as ever, and that is really what I trained to develop anyways. I am grateful for that. For this I am immensely grateful.

Your path may be to continue training. It may be to stop altogether. It may be to take a break and then resume later. Who knows? Life simply has a very natural way of flowing when we allow it to do its thing without judging any one outcome as better or worse than another.

[ShiningLight]

Wow, great post and comments guys. Don't have much to add to the already great things that have been said.

Just wanted to say that physical fitness, sports, exercise, and training have also been a big part of my life. I understand how you feel about the seemingly conflicting nature of your ego and spiritual development....have fun on your journey!

[Keeper]

too soon

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Eric Roosevelt

I agree with the previous posters saying that completely removing the ego isn't a good idea. However, I think we can emotionally detach ourselves from it to some extent, and see it "from a distance", so to speak. We can observe what it wants without associating it with the intense feelings it can otherwise produce. I've noticed recently that a lot of psychological discomfort does actually stem from the ego, or more specifically the fear that others may passing judgements on us.

This seems to just make more sense. Isn't this a more enlightened view anyway, to learn to integrate the ego instead of feeling separated from yourself? To make yourself whole?

I see a lot of folks determined to get rid of their egos. I was one of them... but I think that's a way of saying that being human is somehow a bad thing. We have egos. Let's learn to use them wisely instead of trying to remove an essential part of our humanity.

Despite what some may think, I believe we can have individual opinions, desires, and interests, and still perceive ourselves as being part of the larger whole.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by cylon

This seems to just make more sense. Isn't this a more enlightened view anyway, to learn to integrate the ego instead of feeling separated from yourself? To make yourself whole?

when one integrates the ego into wholeness there is not ego there.

I see a lot of folks determined to get rid of their egos. I was one of them... but I think that's a way of saying that being human is somehow a bad thing. We have egos. Let's learn to use them wisely instead of trying to remove an essential part of our humanity.

If it's there we can't get rid of it. If we wake up we don't believe the ego as real anymore.

I've wanted to include the ego as being awake too. But it doesn't make sense because the ego is the very illusion that perpetuates being separate from being one (enlightenment).

Despite what some may think, I believe we can have individual opinions, desires, and interests, and still perceive ourselves as being part of the larger whole.

You can't serve two masters. Be the individual ego or be one - mutually exclusive. To be enlightened is to not believe all the noise the ego makes. Or ego is our conditioning and enlightenment is to be free of conditioning. So they say.

They also say there's still the illusion doing things but not out of a sense of an individual self.

It's hard for me as a non-awake to buy that. You mean, if I let go of everything that makes me me, I won't just end up on the park bench all blissed out and not go do things? How can I operate if I don't have a sense of self? Everything I do is because I have a self. See, I don't know.

[cylon]

You said me and I a lot in that post.

Whatever floats your boat. Maybe I have a different definition of ego than others do. For instance, I love music. That is I as in, me. I acknowledge that I may have different taste in music than you do. That is a part of my personality. And my personality can only be experienced by embracing the illusion of separateness from your personality. Otherwise there would be no discussion forums. And that would be a boring world.

If you know it's an illusion, there's no harm in playing on that field. We go to movies and get caught up in the story, even though we know it's a fiction.

Steve wrote a good article on this. When he first posted it, I didn't agree with it because I was on the bandwagon of treating evil like it was somehow and aberration, that something went wrong along the way for us to have egos. Now I see we can have it both ways.

The War on Ego

Think of a beautiful, colorful flower against a monotonous, bland landscape. The flower is beautiful because it is in stark contrast to its surroundings. Likewise, if there were a whole bunch of similar flowers next to each other, they may look nice all at once but your eye will probably not be drawn to one individual flower.

Yes, it is all one thing but I don't see the point if we're going to pretend that variety isn't interesting, or noticing differences between things is somehow unhealthy.

[aphorist]

cylon, it's really hard to identify with ego once you really 'get it.' I had my first 'awakening' and then found no harm in getting attached to that ego as long as 'I knew' that it was false... Well, that all fell apart to a rude second awakening, and with that dis-identification, i don't even remember what it was like to be ego-bound.

There's no harm in anything, there's no right or wrong so everyone should be as they are (as they can't be any other way). But, after fully dis-identifying, I do see that ego is source and source is ego. So running from one to another is just silliness. That is a hard thing for people under the influence to see, that it's not about attaching your ego to source, it's about recognizing there is no you at all. Of course, even when you dis-identify, you still have to use your physical, contrived self to communicate and live, you're just no longer attached, it's more a state of observance. You realize you never had control of your physical self to begin with and you just watch it as it 'lives.'

[cylon]

Originally Posted by aphorist

There's no harm in anything, there's no right or wrong so everyone should be as they are

Very true.

[Johnny5]

Originally Posted by Keeper

Hey,

I've been doing lots of spiritually stuff lately and I feel like I've started to come quite abit now on my way to enlightenment. I've studied mainly buddhism out of curiousity and it have changed alot inside me.

I can for example, via meditation, get to a super-happy state. I get this feeling of not being here and this world is not what it seems. Simply put - I can turn myself info the now almost 100% and stop almost all my thoughts for a very long time. Not whole days but many hours atleast.

the problem is. I think I'm in a huge fight with my ego atm. Since before I "evolved" this much in this area I used to train lots of martial arts, mostly muay thai. It used to be very funny and I almost overtrained. But anyhow, now when I think of going back to the training I feel, in just a second, completely emptied of energy and lust. It feels like the reason I was training this martial art was to strenghten my ego... And now when I slowly kill my ego there is no good reason to go train that anymore...

On a spiritual level I know the right choise is not to train. It will only keep me down, preventing any success in the enlightment area. But... On the other hand my ego is going completely nuts over this. "come on, train you laze devil. You'll get lazy and fat if you dont start to train NOW!!!"

I have this gutfeeling... I know I will reach enlightenment pretty soon if I follow my heart and do the right choises....

I find myself ripped between these two emotions. Have you guys had the same experience with enlightenment and physical training?

Are you bound to a life without training when seeking enlightenment?

I don't think you have problem with the pride or the ego. I believe you have fear. The fear of being fat or maybe of changing.

It's normal....

It's a normal progress of disenchantment.

You should work on contemplation, investigation and analysis, so you progress in your wisdom. Wisdom will lead you enlightenment.

In order to become enlightenment, you must have a very strong mindfulness with firm concentration.

Deep Concentration will help destroying past conditioning (Kilesa) from your mind.

Strong Mindfulness will help keeping present conditioning (asava) from corrupt your mind.

Wisdom will help destroying present conditioning (asava).



If you want to strengthen your mindfulness, you should practice meditation focus the feeling of pain (Dukkha Vedana). Sit still don't move, if you feel pain, just focus on the pain. If you have itches, don't scratch, just focus on the itches. Do that until you overcome the pain or the itches, and the pain and itches will disappear.

When you overcome your pain, your mindfulness is very strong.

At this point, you can practice mindfulness to watch over your consciousness. Be aware of any thoughts that arise in your consciousness, you will aware of your consciousness. If your consciousness is pure, you will know it. If your conscious is not pure, you will know it.

When you use your strong mindfulness to destroy all the unwholesome roots (Hatred, Greed, and Delusion), Your mind will become pure. You will have only wholesome roots (Loving kindness, Generosity, and Wisdom). At this point, you will be an enlightened person.


Keep up the practice Keeper...

I am glad to hear that you enjoy this noble Journey.

Best Regards,

Johnny

[The Cloud]

There is beauty in an ego, just as there is beauty in everything you are and everything around you. I don't think that you need to be rid of anything to become enlightened, you just need to pay attention to what is. The ego doesn't prevent that attention, it just isn't that attention.