What is the Relationship Between Financial Debt and Spirituality?

[Michelle]

I know the outer world is representative of our inner world, but sometimes it is hard to view one's own problems objectively. So, how does financial debt on the outside relate to one's (my) inside state?

[Steve Pavlina]

Too much debt means you aren't creating and delivering enough genuine value to others.

Spiritually this means you aren't in resonance with your higher self -- the two of you are out of sync in your character traits. The basic solution is that you need to close that gap a bit.

One thing that helped me a lot with this was doing meditations to connect with my higher self. I use a process similar to the one here, except I connect with my higher self instead of my future self (there are some differences between the two -- the higher self is more of an ideal):
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...te-meditation/

I got to know my higher self's character traits, and by interacting with him I could see a contrast between us. He's very Aries, so to speak. He's bold, confident, fearless -- even funny -- but with a twist of compassion in the form of a tough-love approach. He was the inner ideal I was striving to become.

The better I get at internalizing his qualities, the more me I feel, and the more value I'm able to generate for others because I'm tuned in to my highest source of value.

This is a challenging process because in order to resonate with my higher self, I had to become more courageous, which meant I had to do more of what I feared. Not easy but very powerful in the long run. I always know that when I check in with him, he's going to point out what I'm still fearing and push me to do exactly that. Now I just accept that whatever I fear, I'll eventually have to do.

If you aren't into the whole "higher self" model, just consider it as an abstraction useful for visualization purposes.

You can even connect with the higher selves of other people using the same meditation. I love connecting with Erin's higher self because she just oozes compassion and unconditional love.

[dor]

there is, a ben Franklin said, good debt and bad debt - if you're in debt but it's expanding your business, or financing something that's brining in revenue that's one thing...if its for trinkets and clothing, and a consumerist lifestyle..well its a reflection of what' you're focusing on, i guess..

[magickmystik]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Too much debt means you aren't creating and delivering enough genuine value to others.

Does it always be the case?

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Spiritually this means you aren't in resonance with your higher self -- the two of you are out of sync in your character traits. The basic solution is that you need to close that gap a bit.

Does the qualities that you have just described about your higher self is common to all higher self? Aren't they supposed to be fearless, unconditional love, compassion, etc?
or is there a dud one?

[Glass Joe]

Originally Posted by Michelle

I know the outer world is representative of our inner world, but sometimes it is hard to view one's own problems objectively. So, how does financial debt on the outside relate to one's (my) inside state?

First of all, I want to say that my opinion on this is just that, an opinion. It isn't right or wrong. It's just my own personal experience. So take from it what you will. Also, I should qualify my opinion by saying that I'm very deep in debt right now. It's not debt that is insurmountable, but it's still debt that I owe and will need to repay during my lifetime. I also want to say that I've been on the other side of the fence and totally debt-free with about a year's worth of income readily available in savings.

Regarding your question about the relationship between financial debt and inner state, I think it depends on your intentions and the context. Are you spending beyond your means because you need to surround youself with luxury items or need to take expensive vacations every six months? Or are you deep in debt because you are trying to build your own business and it's taking longer than you'd like to turn a profit. Or are you deep in debt because of medical bills or legal bills?

This is the best question I can think of to ask yourself: Do you believe you are taking from the universe without giving back? Or do you believe the universe has allowed you to take out a temporary I-O-U, where you will eventually pay everyone back, plus interest, when the time is right? Like a spiritual-student loan.

(BTW, I take the term "paying back plus interest" to mean paying back just with money. But for some people, like those with extremely high medical bills, I can definitely see how "paying back" doesn't necessarily have to be just with money.)

For me, and this was just my own experience, I was totally miserable when I was rich (at least rich for my age - 22 yrs old) and debt-free and with my retirement plan in place. And even worse, I didn't even consciously know how miserable I really was! And right now, I'm way more spiritual and much happier even though I'm flat broke and swimming in debt. But one doesn't necessarily equal the other. Like I said, it depends on the intention and context. The same person can choose to be a greedy selfish monk just as easily as he can choose to be a spiritual and selfless millionaire.

There was a time when I felt that "rich = miserable" and "broke = spiritual" (Actually, I'm still cleaning out that limiting belief, "that money is a trap", otherwise I wouldn't still be broke). And a few years before that, there was a time when I felt that "poor = miserable" and "rich = happy". And I say "happy" here and not "spiritual" because at that particular time in my life I honestly had no real concept of what "spiritual" was and I basically lived a very one-dimensional existence. I'm thinking of someone like Gordon Gekko from the movie Wall Street.

So in summary, if you feel that taking on debt is just part of your path of personal growth, then, at least in my opinion, that's totally fine. But if you are taking on debt as a way of taking without any intention of giving back, or as a way of escaping reality and responsibility, then, well, that's fine too. At least in the grand scheme of things.

Bottom line is that anyone else's opinion is irrelant. It's whatever you currently feel in your heart about it and what you choose to do about it that matters. If being in debt and not paying it back right away serves you and your life path, great. But if being in debt feel's more like a heavy burden and is preventing you from moving forward in life, then maybe you should focus on clearing up that obstacle first before moving on to anything else.

[Michelle]

Good morning from Switzerland :-)

Thank you all for your replies. I wrote my question yesterday after having been "tracked down" by the US Department of Education. They spent 8 years looking for me (I moved to Switz in 1999) here in Switzerland to reclaim a $2500 student loan I had taken out while at university in 1998. It took me by surprise that this popped up all of a sudden in my life. I also carry around $6000 in debt from psychoanalysis built up during the last three years.

My debt bothers me to no end. It also bothers me every month to suffer and stress about being able to pay the rent or not. It bothers me that I cannot go take a nice vacation on the ocean in Cyprus or invite my boyfriend out to dinner.

Too much debt means you aren't creating and delivering enough genuine value to others.

Spiritually this means you aren't in resonance with your higher self -- the two of you are out of sync in your character traits. The basic solution is that you need to close that gap a bit.

This resonates with me deeply. This really is it. It is as simple and as difficult as that.

Off to work.

[Dani]

Steve hit the nail on the head, as he so often appears to.

Debt carries a very negative feeling to it. As if it is a bad thing, some sort of penalty.

What you need to instead see it as is not a penalty, but you returning some value that was given to you in the past. Be grateful instead that you have this chance to clear that debt from yourself.

The school loaned you money, and that added value to your life, now it is time to repay that value. You might find that it coinciding with your psychoanalysis debt is actually a good thing.

As another example, most people dread getting bills, but I am grateful for them. They give me a chance to express my thanks for the resources I have recieved. Electricity and the internet especially have added a huge amount of value to my life, I consider the costs the least I can give as thanks in comparison.

You have built up a strong value debt and to get out of it will force you to grow and start generating value for others. Once you clear that debt, you will find yourself in a much stronger position than you are now, because you will have started the habit of generating and giving value.

In more practical terms the extra income you will be required to generate in order to pay off the debt will still be there when you finish paying it. Once this storm is weathered in the short term you will be stronger in the long term.

As for generating that extra income? Most people try to think 'how can I make more money?' Instead focus on 'How can I give more value to people?' Increase the value you provide, and your income will increase accordingly.

This one idea will get you a significant payrise every year of your life from any sane company in the world - Give 50% or more value (not necessarily work, but value) above what they pay you for.

A smart company cannot then refuse you a payrise, because it is more expensive and troublesome to replace you than to give you the payrise.

[munish]

This one is "meeting the Higher self meditation".

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-to-your-room/

[Dharma]

Michelle,
What is debt? You can say I owe someone something because I received something from them. In your case you owe the US Department of Labor $2500.

But who is the US Department of Labor? It's you.

"So, I owe me $2500." That's crazy.... why don't I just pay me off? why do I even need to pay me off? ...can't I just forgive my own loans?

That's one possible outcome.

Ok, as usual, I will say you create all your experience.
In this example you are creating two things:
(1) an education
(2) a debt

These are two mutually exclusive choices and are not linked. One does not create the other. And it seems crazy that I'd create debt when I dislike it so much.

If I can just manifest my education and leave off the debt, well, why don't I do that? Because my belief in creatorship includes paying someone back. I cannot receive without giving. It's one of my rules. I'm allowed to create my reality as I wish and I've put the "apple pie" of debt in there.

Birthdays are like the only day we get a break from this structure. We can just sit back and receive. Ahhhhhhh.

So practice:
(1) noticing how you feel when you have that impulse to give back
(2) receive something from someone and don't give anything back (except gratitude ) and notice the emotional movement that comes up inside. It will be uncomfortable. You need to be conscious of this movement so you can wake yourself up during an interaction and say "wait... I'm in my programming again... I don't have to impulsively give something here... I can make a conscious choice in the moment to respond however I wish. I'm choosing to give myself something and that choice is separate from a choice to give something back."

Don't think I got this down... I just learned this a few weeks ago. I'd love to make it a reality in my life sooner rather than later. One awesome experience I had on the Appalachian Trail was that I had to receive from others all the time and had nothing to give back except my gratitude. The flow of this kept increasing as I hiked northward to the point where everything I needed was given to me. Coming back into the "real world", I slowly went back into my old patterns which I am working out now.

[Michelle]

Wow, what a great thread this has turned into. You guys are so wise :-). Thanks!

[Michelle]

These are two mutually exclusive choices and are not linked. One does not create the other. And it seems crazy that I'd create debt when I dislike it so much.

If I can just manifest my education and leave off the debt, well, why don't I do that? Because my belief in creatorship includes paying someone back. I cannot receive without giving. It's one of my rules. I'm allowed to create my reality as I wish and I've put the "apple pie" of debt in there.

Yep, this makes sense. I do get awfully uncomfortable when receiving.

As another example, most people dread getting bills, but I am grateful for them. They give me a chance to express my thanks for the resources I have recieved. Electricity and the internet especially have added a huge amount of value to my life, I consider the costs the least I can give as thanks in comparison.

You have a great attitude!

[Michelle]

In order for Steve's and Dharma's answers to work together, gratitude would have to equal sufficient genuine value to others.

Right? Does this work?

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by magickmystik

Does it always be the case?

I would argue that it is indeed the case, because it starts with delivering genuine value to yourself. I think that's why you hear about some people who suddenly started paying themselves $100 a month into their savings account, and by the end of the year, they were out of debt (or a good chunk of it, at least) and had emergency savings for the first time in their lives.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Michelle

In order for Steve's and Dharma's answers to work together, gratitude would have to equal sufficient genuine value to others.

Right? Does this work?

In my answer you don't even need to show the gratitude, but when you're hiking 6 months in the woods, that's all you have to give people, and it feels good doing it. It is especially delicious when I say thank you and I realize I'm thanking myself for giving me something.

[Liara Covert]

I find this a very uplifting discussion thread. Debt seems to reflect an imbalance of emotions, a lopsided giving and taking where we often owe things to ourselves. Sometimes a monetary debt makes a statement about not giving ourselves enough attention, low esteem or a lack of self-respect.

I know a person who has given selflessly (worked diligently) for a team and clients for a year, yet still accumulated a considerable financial debt. He didn't buy luxury items. The company partner/ finance officer cut his pay to about $200/wk because of supposed back bills. This said, the man with accumulating debts initially accepted this yet, was unaware of true financial state of his company. As Dharma says in his posting, its useful to listen to inner feelings when you have the repeated impulse to give back. The man in this story had to learn that his company role and efforts deserved different treatment. He had to learn to value himself differently. He had to learn to respect himself and change his behavior to investigate with due diligence.

This person has learned that giving long term without receiving is exhausting.
You could make a similar analogy with a personal relationship. Lack of reciprocity typically leads to feeling uncomfortable, like something isn't right. This is a sign that we should do something to improve our situation.
If we become indebted to ourselves, it is part of our personal journey to realize this and learn to take steps to re-establish balance.

[doc]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

This person has learned that giving long term without receiving is exhausting.
You could make a similar analogy with a personal relationship. Lack of reciprocity typically leads to feeling uncomfortable, like something isn't right. This is a sign that we should do something to improve our situation.
If we become indebted to ourselves, it is part of our personal journey to realize this and learn to take steps to re-establish balance.

I can totally relate to the first line in the above quote from Liara, having performed Pro Bono work for over 20 years as a doctor in the healthcare field.

Part of the reason I have done Pro Bono work is because I live in a very rural area where many of the people are from low income families and are uninsured.

Unfortunately, as much as I enjoy rendering care to those who are in need, Pro Bono work has not helped to pay the bills, so to speak, as I have yet to pay off my student loans, only making about 6K a year.

The way I see it, though, is that I have already contributed several million dollars worth of value back to society over the years, so in a sense I have paid off these student loans several times over...

I'm not sure this is the correct thread to discuss this, this being my first post and all, so I would ask what steps should I take to establish a balance whereby I can maintain the same level of service, while receiving credit for what I do and have done so I can pay off my debts?

In addition, my health is such that it takes me all day to do an hour's work, meaning I can work for about 10 minutes and then I need to rest up for a while, this having to do with low energy and chronic pain.

I'd appreciate some help on this, so please direct me to a suitable thread to discuss the underlying problems and possible solutions to this dilemma.

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

I know a person who has given selflessly (worked diligently) for a team and clients for a year, yet still accumulated a considerable financial debt. He didn't buy luxury items. The company partner/ finance officer cut his pay to about $200/wk because of supposed back bills.

Yeah, I struggle with this, too. My employers have a high turnover rate because a lot of people can't afford to work here very long. I did manage to pay off the debt I incurred my first year interning for the company last December, though, so I must have learned something about making the situation work! I paid off my credit card, too.

It's worth it because I love my job, I love my coworkers, and it's very difficult to break into this industry. (I moved to SF for two years to try it down there, and even with 1.5 years of experience under my belt, it was impossible.) So it's worth it... for a time, at least.