There is no good and evil, just smart and dumb

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Cantando

That was a more of a general address, 'ad orbe', rather than a personal attack on his beliefs. As a forum old timer, I thought you would have noticed the distinction!

I might have, if you hadn't quoted Parthon and then said "Stop trying to hide these things under some cloak of a new-age lie," in that same short post. It didn't sound like a personal attack on his beliefs; it sounded like you were saying he is trying to hide things under some cloak of a new-age lie. Who are you telling to stop trying to hide things in this general address of yours, if not Parthon? Just...everyone?

I don't have any aim...

Ahhh, I see: that post was just aimless. I beg your pardon; when someone says "Stop doing this or that!" I assume that their aim is to get others to stop doing this or that. And that's why I replied with, in so many words, if you shift your perspective, you may see that it's not The Truth that they (Parthon, or the world at large) were doing what you want them to stop doing in the first place.

Think on this (addressed to all) - what is a lie? Is it the denial of truth? Does a lie exist? Is it real? What happens when we believe a lie? Let's address some of these questions.

Phew! I'm going to bed!

Okay: A lie is not always a lie. Sometimes it just looks like a lie, and if you look at it another way, it's the truth.

Like the OP was saying (I think): what looks like good and evil can transform completely if you look at them from another angle, and so can your problems with them.

Sleep tight!

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Think on this (addressed to all) - what is a lie? Is it the denial of truth? Does a lie exist? Is it real? What happens when we believe a lie? Let's address some of these questions.

Phew! I'm going to bed!

I was today thinking just of this, how lies affect to liars.
And most people that lie in the end believe in their own lies. So they can justify to theirselves their own actions.

For instances, to do big evil actions (genocides, for instance), people must think they are morally right to do it and they're doing nothing wrong, if not they could not do it.
So they lie to themselves but when you lie you get a false vision of reality. And that turns to be bad for you in the end.

Some say here you low down your "level of consciousness". You get a wrong impression of how things are, so you start being a victim of your lie. Even if your morals don't see lying as a bad thing and you feel absolutely comfortable while lying and holding the lie/hidding the truth.

[Manomanman]

Nietzche would agree with you. And I would too.

/sign

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Cantando

To kill, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, etc. are sins when you are spiritually knowledgeable enough to realize that they are. Even if you do not believe in God, but are generally a decent, humane sort of person, you know deep down that these things are wrong..

The Taliban are religious, spiritual, descent and humane sort people but they do not agree with you, though.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by songwriter

For instances, to do big evil actions (genocides, for instance), people must think they are morally right to do it and they're doing nothing wrong, if not they could not do it...

I don’t think a lie is the only basis of big evil actions, I suppose people who commit such evil are mostly motivated by fear.

Originally Posted by songwriter

So they lie to themselves but when you lie you get a false vision of reality. And that turns to be bad for you in the end..

It more than a lie to them at times they think that they are protecting what in their opinion is right.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Angela

I might have, if you hadn't quoted Parthon and then said "Stop trying to hide these things under some cloak of a new-age lie," in that same short post. It didn't sound like a personal attack on his beliefs; it sounded like you were saying he is trying to hide things under some cloak of a new-age lie. Who are you telling to stop trying to hide things in this general address of yours, if not Parthon? Just...everyone?

Precisely, those who are 'trying to hide these things under some cloak of a new-age lie'. If there is no one out there who is trying to do so, then my exhortation is null and void, so why should anyone be concerned at my mad ramblings? However, if the cap does fit for anyone, then perhaps it is a reflection of something within their own reality which has been agitated, something they have created within their subjective reality.

Ahhh, I see: that post was just aimless.

No, it was a response to your, 'if your aim is to assure yourself that you are right ...'.
I had no aim or intention within the context of your statement.

Okay: A lie is not always a lie. Sometimes it just looks like a lie, and if you look at it another way, it's the truth.

Like the OP was saying (I think): what looks like good and evil can transform completely if you look at them from another angle, and so can your problems with them.

So, when is a lie not a lie? Could you possibly give a few examples? Looking at good or evil from another perspective does not transform it. You are just changing your viewpoint of it - big difference.

If your partner cheats on you, then denies it, then he has lied. No matter what viewpoint you or he adopts, no matter how your dress it up, does not alter the fact that he lied. It's done.

Am I missing something here?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Cantando

If your partner cheats on you, then denies it, then he has lied. No matter what viewpoint you or he adopts, no matter how your dress it up, does not alter the fact that he lied. It's done.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, that's an excellent example. "Cheating" is not real -- it's an interpretation of a real event. So if he denies cheating, he may very well be telling the truth -- and if he were asked if he had sex with someone other than his wife, perhaps he would say yes. Maybe that sounds like a word game to you, but it's not. You can only cheat if you believe there's such a thing as cheating, and you can only be cheated on if you believe there's such a thing as cheating. That's quite a different way of being in a relationship than someone who believes it's possible to have sex with someone who's not your spouse, it's possible to break the promises you made to one another, but "cheating" is nothing but a ghost. Personally, I find it far more effective, empowering, and loving to deal with real events in a relationship, rather than our story about those events -- and "cheating" is the story that sometimes gets told when one person has sex with someone other than another particular person, to whom they've made a promise not to. Very often, it's considered "cheating" even if there never was any promise -- some people tell themselves the story that it's cheating even without any explicit agreement. Ai chihuahua!

So, it may very well be a lie to you and not be a lie as far as I'm concerned.

Again, you might go all frog-in-a-blender about it -- people often do when I talk about the subject of "cheating" -- and that's because you believe that it's possible to cheat. From that perspective, it can be very upsetting to hear someone talk about how "cheating is not real." It takes hopping out of the blender to be able to shift your perspective, something that can look absolutely impossible when you're inside the blender. To the frog, it looks like "dressing up the truth" or word games or denial or insanity.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, that's an excellent example. "Cheating" is not real -- it's an interpretation of a real event. So if he denies cheating, he may very well be telling the truth --

I agree with what you are saying about cheating, but what I was referring to was an example where someone has done something, then blatantly denies it. We could argue about whether cheating is a lie or not, but I am claiming that the deliberate denial is a lie. Cheating was just an example, perhaps not a very clear cut one.

How about this one: you are standing at the bus stop and the guy next to you quite openly takes your purse. You ask for it back, but he denies taking it, saying he has always owned the purse. A policeman comes along and you tell him what happened. Despite the fact that everyone else at the bus stop saw him take your purse, and the cctv footage confirms it, and your driving licence and passport are inside the purse, the policeman says, 'Well, if he says it's his purse, then it must be. It's his truth, his subjective reality. From his perspective, it's his purse, so move along now'.

Would you say, 'Oh silly me, my mistake. Thank you officer for clearing that up. I feel so much better now!'.

If I do something (for whatever reason), then deliberately deny I have done it, I have lied. You can call it porkies, a fib, a white lie, a terminilogical inexactitude. I may have all sorts of theories and beliefs about why it is not a lie (to protect myself/others, or whatever) and hop like a frog from one lily-pad perspective to another. But, the fact remains - I lied.

[James81]

The problem with your arguement is that you assume that "morality" is a description of a person and not an action.

You are right, there are no good or evil PEOPLE, but there are definately good and evil ACTIONS.

For example, someone who rapes and murders a woman may not be inherently evil, but they are most definately commiting an evil act. And in that sense, morality exists.

The real question here is this: Are people defined by the sum of their actions? If the sum total of someone's actions tips the scales towards evil, does that make them an evil person?

I would say not necessarily. Some people may commit evil acts thinking that they are doing good. For an example of this, I offer the person with whom we gauge evil by in our society: Adolph Hitler.

Adoph Hitler most definately thought he was doing good for the human race. His acts were based on some theories that were circulated (and supported by, I might add) several people in his time from all walks of life and nationalities.

Can we say that Hitler was evil because the totality of his evil acts is the gauge of evil in our modern world? Maybe not. But he did a lot of evil things.

[Angela]

Yes, I understand that you see it that way and only that way.

And this purse-snatching guy is another great example! You've got a million of 'em. There are so many possible ways of seeing the incident, in addition to "he lied."

It reminds me of a time when I was in college, and a classmate announced that the pen I was using was hers. When I told her that, no, this was my pen, the one I'd been using all semester, she went to the administration, who scheduled a powwow to confront me. She was very upset, and described how she had borrowed her husband's very special and expensive pen and he would be horribly angry at her if he found out it had been stolen. I calmly explained that it was a promotional give-away from Sears, but that I was glad to give it to her if it would help. I felt pretty humiliated, though, when everyone saw that as me confessing to the crime.

The next day she came to school, handed me the pen, and told me that her husband had looked at the pen, told her that this cheapy thing was not his pen, THIS was his pen -- he had found his designer expensive pen the night before on the entry table. She apologized to me, I accepted, and we became friends.

Imagine if her "You're lying!" had reactivated me into saying "No, YOU're lying!" etc. It certainly looked to her like it was absolutely, 100% objectively, inarguably true that I had stolen her husband's pen. We could have a much more difficult and uncomfortable road to friendship!

And who is to say it was "my" pen, anyway? Who is to say it's "my" purse that gets snatched? The guy may totally believe it's "his" purse for all I know, and for all I know, he may be right! I can't know what's going on in his head. Even if he felt he was lying -- like he consciously knew that that purse belonged to me and yet he said it was his anyway -- there are STILL other perspectives from which to see it as a non-lie.

I understand your resistance to a subjective reality perspective, and that's fine. And in fact, if someone takes something that I "own," it might be helpful to use a subjective lens -- in the real world. Of course, like you, I can stick to my objective reality guns and say: Book him, Dano! That's perfectly valid. But it's no more The Truth than to see it as his purse as well as mine -- his money as well as mine. Or maybe it would be more helpful to notice that if someone takes something away from me, maybe it belongs with him -- maybe he is desperate to feed himself or his kids, and maybe it was time for me to get a new purse, and maybe etc. etc.

Have you ever heard the story of the monk who arrived home to find a burglar stealing everything the monk had? The monk told the burglar --- "go ahead, take what you need." And when the burglar left with all of the monk's stuff, the burglar looked out the window and up at the moon, and thought to himself, "Poor man, I wish I could give him the moon, too."

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, I understand that you see it that way and only that way.

And this purse-snatching guy is another great example! You've got a million of 'em. There are so many possible ways of seeing the incident, in addition to "he lied."

It reminds me of a time ...

Yes, that's fine about all the nuances and possibilities of who owns what and why, etc. I have no issues with that.

I am actually wondering why you do not seem to be grasping the (what I thought was) rather simple point I was trying to make.

OK, for one last time (deep breath), I'll make it as simple as I possibly can:

I do something - OK? It doesn't matter what it is.
I then deliberately deny that I did it, i.e. I lie. That's what a lie is (check the dictionary if it's unclear).

What does it mean for me?

It means I am not facing the reality of what I did.
It means I am pretending it didn't happen.
It means I am covering something up.
It means I am hiding something.
It means I am now less than whole.
It means I have compromised myself.
It means I am refusing to see something for what it is.

That's what lie can be for someone. And, of course, lies beget lies, to the point where one can be living a lie - changing identity, pretending to be someone else, for example.

I'm sorry, but I can't really explain it any more clearly.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I am actually wondering why you do not seem to be grasping the (what I thought was) rather simple point I was trying to make.

OK, for one last time (deep breath), I'll make it as simple as I possibly can

I grasp what you're saying, alright, Cantando: a lie is a lie. If you do something and then you deliberately deny that you did it, then that's a lie. Case closed, game over, that's reality, there's no arguing, it's The Truth about Lies.

I get it! You're right, it IS simple, and it's also ordinary. Many people would agree with you, and that's the ordinary way that people normally look at "lying."

I hadn't know all the meaning you make about it until you listed it out in your last post -- that was very interesting!

Now, are you grasping what I'M saying? It's not the ordinary way of looking at it, so it may not be so simple. A lie is not always a lie, and a lie can be transformed if you shift your perspective. Transformation comes in really handy if you want to have a life that works really well. It can generate love where there was resistance, it can generate ease and effortlessness where there was struggle, and it can generate connection where there was separateness.

I'm not talking about any new-age whooo-whooo, and I'm not playing word games. It's not hard for me to see that you might see what I'm saying as denial of truth or polyanna-ishness or just sheer cussedness, and I get your perspective! Been there, done that. And it's like those people who see the spinning ballerina and think that they have no power over which way she appears to spin.

What you're saying is true, but it's not The Truth. See what I mean?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Angela

I grasp what you're saying, alright, Cantando: a lie is a lie. If you do something and then you deliberately deny that you did it, then that's a lie. Case closed, game over, that's reality, there's no arguing, it's The Truth about Lies ...

Yes, I understand your perspective, and I'm relieved you understand mine.

The thing with lies is that, once accepted, they become one's truth and one may become blind to the fact that they are believing a lie.

Wasn't Nazism in Germany based on believing lies - believing that the Aryan people were superior to everybody else? In fact, isn't all forms of racism and discrimination based on believing a lie? Perhaps, illusion or delusion may be better terms, but they are fairly synonymous.

Nature abhors a vacuum. When one rejects the truth about something (no, I don't mean The Truth), then, by default, one accepts something else, which is not the truth. If you listen to a guy who says, 'All blonde, blue-eyed people are superior' and believe it, then you ignore the truth that they are not, and accept the lie that they are. You then believe it and that becomes your subjective reality.

Yes, the belief in a lie can be transformed - firstly, by recognizing and admitting to oneself that it is a lie, and secondly, by doing something to rectify the situation.

Perhaps, you call it changing perspective. I just call it being honest with oneself.

[WoodlandStar]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

Stepping in to help someone because you think you should, even if you can't fight, or aren't strong, is bad. It's stupid.

Wow, that statement is so profound in terms of propagating social apathy, that I shudder at thinking what this planet might look like if everyone fell into that abyss of robotic thinking. However, that said, we have many examples of what it does produce.


The Kitty Genovese story (Wiki would have you believe that the headlines were a misconception...but the simple truth is that 38 people did nothing. We have a way of denying our social apathy. )


But that is an old story, haven't we grown up as a society? I could wish, but the headlines tell me that we have a long way to go.

"The young woman had been attacked in full view of a New York City subway clerk, then dragged down the steps onto a deserted platform where she was raped and raped again, the assailant not stopping even when a subway train pulled into the station."

At 65 with waning strength I will do whatever it takes to help another in distress. And if it means rising to the occasion to do battle in which I cannot possibly win, I will do that for one simple reason: to maintain my sense of dignity. Is this logical? Is it stupid? In a world of self serving people it would be absurd: but I do not live in a world of self serving people. I live in a world that allows each one of us to rise above the limits of our personal insecurities. We have a long way to go, but we are making the attempt.
70 year old Man Dies After Saving Two Boys From Near Drowning

"It is not the strength, but the duration, of great sentiments that makes great men." -Nietzsche

[aggie]

that is like saying Hitler was just dumb...he knew exactly what he was doing to achieve his personal life quests...and it was plain evil...why do so many people try so hard to intellectualize such a simple concept? most of the time it is simply about choice....and what you will or won't do to satisfy yourself and not live by anyone else's "judgement" of you.

[brendannz]

Steve Pavlina's lightworker and darkworker blogs have a bit on this subject if it'd interest you.

I believe in karma, and morality in a way. But I don't believe in it, as a supernatural force acting in the universe (although, it could be happening, I guess) it's just if you treat other people really badly, then you can't expect other people to treat you well..

I think you can be intelligent, and a cruel and selfish person,
likewise, you can be unintelligent, and a really generous, good person.

If anything, good and evil are much easier and less subjective words than smart and dumb, in my opinion.

[brendannz]

"the only evil is ignorance" - Socrates (I think)

[AlexL]

Originally Posted by WoodlandStar

Wow, that statement is so profound in terms of propagating social apathy, that I shudder at thinking what this planet might look like if everyone fell into that abyss of robotic thinking. However, that said, we have many examples of what it does produce.


The Kitty Genovese story (Wiki would have you believe that the headlines were a misconception...but the simple truth is that 38 people did nothing. We have a way of denying our social apathy. )


But that is an old story, haven't we grown up as a society? I could wish, but the headlines tell me that we have a long way to go.

"The young woman had been attacked in full view of a New York City subway clerk, then dragged down the steps onto a deserted platform where she was raped and raped again, the assailant not stopping even when a subway train pulled into the station."

At 65 with waning strength I will do whatever it takes to help another in distress. And if it means rising to the occasion to do battle in which I cannot possibly win, I will do that for one simple reason: to maintain my sense of dignity. Is this logical? Is it stupid? In a world of self serving people it would be absurd: but I do not live in a world of self serving people. I live in a world that allows each one of us to rise above the limits of our personal insecurities. We have a long way to go, but we are making the attempt.
70 year old Man Dies After Saving Two Boys From Near Drowning

"It is not the strength, but the duration, of great sentiments that makes great men." -Nietzsche

Thank you, WoodlandStar, for your comments. They resonate with me partly because I made reference to Kitty Genovese in a blog post I wrote called "Evil Triumphs When Good People Do Nothing" on my own blog (link below). I couldn't agree more with what you said.

Evil Triumphs When Good People Do Nothing « Happiness in this World

AlexL
Happiness in this World