Self-developmen;A Christian perspective.

[TaylorLord]

We all have our own beliefs about certain things lets not let things separate each other! Diversity is beautiful.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

Yep. You've all misinterpreted beautiful spiritual poetry for prose. all the Christian mythology is borrowed from earlier times.

Very interesting observation indeed!
Does ancient history agree with the Bible?
If the Bible is God's message to us, we should hope its version of history is accurate. It is.
For example, the Bible reports that Jesus of Nazareth performed many miracles, was executed by the Romans, and rose from the dead. Numerous ancient historians corroborate the Bible's account of the life of Jesus and his followers:
Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120), an historian of first-century Rome, is considered one of the most accurate historians of the ancient world.
1- An excerpt from Tacitus tells us that the Roman emperor Nero "inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class...called Christians. ...Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...."

2-Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (A.D. 38-100+), wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities. From Josephus, "we learn that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.
3-Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Thallus also wrote about Christian worship and persecution that is consistent with New Testament accounts.
Even the Jewish Talmud, certainly not biased toward Jesus, concurs about the major events of his life. From the Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."
4-This is remarkable information considering that most ancient historians focused on political and military leaders, not on obscure rabbis from distant provinces of the Roman Empire. Yet ancient historians (Jews, Greeks and Romans) confirm the major events that are presented in the New Testament, even though they were not believers themselves. Borrowed from everystudent.com( why you can believe the Bible)

[Cran]

Perhaps you should check the date Jericho was destroyed, and if could possibly have been destroyed by the people the bible claims and some other minor issues

[Liveformx64]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Very interesting observation indeed!
Does ancient history agree with the Bible?
If the Bible is God's message to us, we should hope its version of history is accurate. It is.
For example, the Bible reports that Jesus of Nazareth performed many miracles, was executed by the Romans, and rose from the dead. Numerous ancient historians corroborate the Bible's account of the life of Jesus and his followers:
Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120), an historian of first-century Rome, is considered one of the most accurate historians of the ancient world.
1- An excerpt from Tacitus tells us that the Roman emperor Nero "inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class...called Christians. ...Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...."

2-Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (A.D. 38-100+), wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities. From Josephus, "we learn that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.
3-Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Thallus also wrote about Christian worship and persecution that is consistent with New Testament accounts.
Even the Jewish Talmud, certainly not biased toward Jesus, concurs about the major events of his life. From the Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."
4-This is remarkable information considering that most ancient historians focused on political and military leaders, not on obscure rabbis from distant provinces of the Roman Empire. Yet ancient historians (Jews, Greeks and Romans) confirm the major events that are presented in the New Testament, even though they were not believers themselves. Borrowed from everystudent.com( why you can believe the Bible)

How quickly you brandish your sword of convenient history.

Lets suppose for your sake everything you said above is true. Which I consider to be quite probable. What does that have to do with Jesus being the savior of the world from a place of eternal punishment?

I would say it has nothing to do with it. Countless men performed miracles throughout history. Every culture has their Jesus. What other cultures have you studied, or more importantly traveled to and understood their culture?

Your only frame of reference is from your Christian mountain top, and for fear of eternal damnation from the one you claim to love, you are afraid to question or doubt your beliefs.

Since we are wielding the sword of "history", might I suggest you to look into who financed the translation of the biblical texts from Aramaic and so on. It wont take you long to discover the 40,000 plus significant discrepancies the translated text our modern bibles have, when compared to our oldest surviving records.

Whats more is, our oldest records are nowhere near the originals. We are copying copies of copies, all of which are slightly different from the next.

I encourage you get your hands on this book, and learn about the history of how the bible came to be. Written by world renown bible scholar Bart D. Ehrman.

Amazon.com: Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (Plus): Bart D. Ehrman: Books

Again I thank you for your sharing, and mean this in no way to attack you.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Very interesting observation indeed!
Does ancient history agree with the Bible?
If the Bible is God's message to us, we should hope its version of history is accurate. It is.


[

No, I believe the bible is the Romans message to us. There were teachings before 4AD that had Jesus as a man, the Gnostic sects were at least 1/2 of Christianity. In the Thomas Gospel Jesus teaches radically different things.
I have seen plenty of Jewish scholars give scores of historical references why he is NOT the messiah. I'm not going through that wast of time academic excersize anymore. Shall I now go to websites and post historical links from a Jewish or Archelogical perspective? Howbout, uh...no.

You didn't really respond to my quote however. The christian mythology is mythology from earlier times. You can find much of the mythology in Zorastrian writings, African, Greek, Pagan.

Bottom line, I do not believe the St James/Roman Bible was put together by God acting through those people. You Do.

[pianoperformer]

joelr,

Interesting point. That reminds me of something I read when I almost became Catholic, that the creation myth in the Bible is very similar to the creation myth of some other culture, just that it shows God in a different light, and of course it only portrays one god. The theory was that the Jews came up with this myth to keep the people from believing in something else.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by newsbone

When I became a “real” Christian many of my more experienced, and I assume more learned, Christian friends looked askance at my involvement in self-development, labeling these things as New Age and Pagan influences. Most Christians perceive self-development as sinful practice to be avoided at all costs. many believers today live pathetic defeated lives that not only don’t glorify God, but actually serve by example to turn seekers away from Him.

Being a practicing Christian, I beg to differ with this line of thinking. our Creator had given each of us potential for success beyond our wildest imagination, and it’s our responsibility to use as much of it as possible as an expression of gratitude” writes Jack Kelly a Christian self-development author.

His promise that “I have come so that they may have life and have it abundantly” (John 10:10) Here are some verses that directly encourage persuit for personal development;
Delight yourselves in Me, and I’ll give you the desires of your heart (Psalm 37:4).
Study My Word day and night and quote it often. Do everything it tells you and you will be prosperous and successful (Josh 1:8-9).
Trust in Me and stop trying to figure it out on your own. Give Me the credit and I’ll keep you on the straight and narrow. Honor Me with your wealth and your bank account will be filled to overflowing (Prov. 3:5-6, 9-10).
Give Me the 10th that’s Mine, and I’ll throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing you won’t be able to stand it (Malachi 3:9-10).
Give and it will be given to you. A good measure pressed down shaken together and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured to you (Luke 6:38).
Change your attitude (Ephe. 4:23),
Practice Positive Thinking (Phil 4:8-9),
Discover the Power of Personal Goals (Phil 3:13-14),
The Power of Visualization (2 Cor 4:17-18)
And Affirmation or Self-Talk (Phil 4:4 and 13).
Rejoice in Me always. Be fearful of nothing, pray about everything, and be thankful for anything, and I will give you peace that transcends human understanding (Phil 4:4-7).
You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion (2 Cor 9:11).
And when you are, remember Who it was that gave you the ability to attain wealth (Deut. 8:18).
This is your destiny.
Achieve it and you’ll bring the greatest honor imaginable to the One Who made it so-Jack Kelly.

Good for you! for living a God-centered, emotionally-balanced, & constructively fulfilling life...

[joelr]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

joelr,

Interesting point. That reminds me of something I read when I almost became Catholic, that the creation myth in the Bible is very similar to the creation myth of some other culture, just that it shows God in a different light, and of course it only portrays one god. The theory was that the Jews came up with this myth to keep the people from believing in something else.

There was a pre-Egyptian mythology that had Dec 25th as a birthdate, good Friday/Easter death/resurrection, 12 apostles, a Mary character but it was centered around the Sun's cycle. Then reappeared with the Zorastrians with Gods. The Zeitgiest move (can be seen on youtube) talks about that. There is a site that has all the old Zor text that's linked to this site. The spiritual resources link.
You might like Joseph Campbells "Power of Myth", he spent his whole life traveling and researching world mythology. But he is very spiritual also, not just anthropological. I just heard him say, "God is a thought. An idea. But one that references to something beyond being or non-being, beyond anything we can conceptualize". He really gets it. I've read a lot but I can't think of anything heavier. He references the Thomas Gospel often also. There, Jesus teaches essentially the law of Attraction and that the power in him is the same power in everyone.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

How quickly you brandish your sword of convenient history.
Lets suppose for your sake everything you said above is true. Which I consider to be quite probable. What does that have to do with Jesus being the savior of the world from a place of eternal punishment? .

You really hate punishment, don’t you? So you are looking for a way round it; you won’t find one because every action invites a reaction either positive or negative; choose.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

I would say it has nothing to do with it. Countless men performed miracles throughout history.

Never claimed that only Jesus did it!

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

Every culture has their Jesus.

Never claimed they didn’t! For God works in mysterious ways and I can’t
limit him! And will never do! I only chose to obey the most consistent and whose writings still live, and have experienced his version of the truth. I hope your culture had one too, consequently you have no excuse but to be ready to be judged.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

Your only frame of reference is from your Christian mountain top, and for fear of eternal damnation from the one you claim to love, you are afraid to question or doubt your beliefs. .

After much soul searching, believe me! And just goes beyond the fear of eternal damnation; it is a life changing experience to me. I have changed my form of belief numerously; from a Catholic (I was born one) to a Moslem to a skeptic to a presumed Devil worshipper/spiritist (though never knew how to do it correctly anyway) to an assumed atheist before my finally converting to my “Christian mountain”.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

What other cultures have you studied, or more importantly traveled to and understood their culture?

I’m an African with a very strong and animate cultural background; within my family we share four different cultures (the are completely different cultures and forms of belief; that is the beauty of Africa), five different languages (excluding English and Swahili) and three different nationalities. I was born in Uganda, schooled in Kenya worked in Tanzania, Burundi and currently in Uganda. I have preached in the Congo, southern Sudan, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and India.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

Since we are wielding the sword of "history", might I suggest you to look into who financed the translation of the biblical texts from Aramaic and so on..

Doesn’t matter to me who did what for even the Devil works for the good of the gospel of Christ.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

Whats more is, our oldest records are nowhere near the originals. We are copying copies of copies, all of which are slightly different from the next..

Now I have known why you were insistent on what translation I hold to be true! Do they serve God’s purpose or not? Yes they do, if you ask me! According to your observation what has changed? Is it the language, the approach or the content or purpose? Because am only interested in how the latter can be and is achieved, without betrayal of what I know after careful reading and analyzing of all the translations in my possession (they happen to be enough, including books written by critics of various translations.)

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

Again I thank you for your sharing, and mean this in no way to attack you.

No apologies expected or needed for am convinced you are serving God’s purpose in my life and that is the more reason he connected us. So attack and attack for am even ready for a blitzkrieg!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

No, I believe the bible is the Romans message to us. There were teachings before 4AD that had Jesus as a man, the Gnostic sects were at least 1/2 of Christianity..

Yeah! Jesus was a man did I say otherwise? Ever read and the “Word became
flesh”. Am not responsible for the opinion of the so called Gnostics, they had just like you the freedom to think the way they wanted or felt served their purpose. Does this make your argument strong? No I don’t think so, but it just provides skeptical historians with reasons (read excuses) to further their beliefs, which is not wrong anyway for it is Biblical. Please blame the Romans not us. Was it wrong or devilish for the Romans to have put together the Bible or, does that make it irrelevant? No, not to me. The devil might have put it together for all I care; Satan serves God’s purpose for your information.

[QUOTE=joelr;331310] In the Thomas Gospel Jesus teaches radically different things. QUOTE]
Not a new idea heard it before even the one according to Judas. Different to what, his purpose or Thomas’

Originally Posted by joelr

I have seen plenty of Jewish scholars give scores of historical references why he is NOT the messiah..

There expectations on the purpose of the Messiah were not achieved through Jesus, which is common knowledge. But it is not the first time that they have historically, been wrong, is it?

Originally Posted by joelr

I'm not going through that wast of time academic excersize anymore. Shall I now go to websites and post historical links from a Jewish or Archelogical perspective? Howbout, uh...no..

If you think academics is only unique to your perspective of the Biblical origin and purpose try me……i dare you!

Originally Posted by joelr

You didn't really respond to my quote however. The christian mythology is mythology from earlier times. You can find much of the mythology in Zorastrian writings, African, Greek, Pagan..

Let me open your spiritual eyes which are evidentially closed. God was not isolated to the Jews only; nevertheless it was only them who stuck to almost all the objectives without being wise in their own eyes. If you believe that God created us all then it is my opinion that he in one way or another tried to reach us but without success. And chose to prepare a people for himself- the Jews, he chose to come down personally since his earlier efforts proved to be futile. You seem misinformed on the good intentions of God by limiting him to a single perspective.

Originally Posted by joelr

Bottom line, I do not believe the St James/Roman Bible was put together by God acting through those people. You Do.

It is your Biblical right to think and act otherwise!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

There was a pre-Egyptian mythology that had Dec 25th as a birthdate, good Friday/Easter death/resurrection,..

Thanks for the facts to support my view of the Roman Catholic Church! They have corrupted the entire teachings of Christ, manipulated them to the benefit of their egocentric minds.

Originally Posted by joelr

12 apostles, a Mary character but it was centered around the Sun's cycle..

Does similar stand for one? Is it historically wrong about the 12 disciples and Mary? Was it erroneous for Jesus to pick a similar number of followers? What is the point in this particular argument? Is it the correspondence? That is vague.

Originally Posted by joelr

You might like Joseph Campbells "Power of Myth", he spent his whole life traveling and researching world mythology. But he is very spiritual also, not just anthropological. I just heard him say, "God is a thought. An idea. But one that references to something beyond being or non-being, beyond anything we can conceptualize". He really gets it..

His opinion seems to work on you! No thanks. Preach it Brother. People of your line of thought are needed to confirm the authenticity of the Bible as I know it.

Originally Posted by joelr

There, Jesus teaches essentially the law of Attraction and that the power in him is the same power in everyone.

When was the last time you read the Bible? You did not have to read any other book to get the most basic of its teachings. “And God created man in his on image, in the image of God created he them”

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Good for you! for living a God-centered, emotionally-balanced, & constructively fulfilling life...

Thanks! It is good to know that we have like minded Christians in this 'Self development Forum'. God bless you as you keep the fire burning!

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Please blame the Romans not us. Was it wrong or devilish for the Romans to have put together the Bible or, does that make it irrelevant? No, not to me. The devil might have put it together for all I care; Satan serves God’s purpose for your information.

I'm not judging the Romans. I'm just stating they put together the bible to assure Jesus would appear to be a supernatural being. It worked. Even today people still believe a metaphorical mythology to be literal. For example......

Originally Posted by joelr

Not a new idea heard it before even the one according to Judas. Different to what, his purpose or Thomas’

Different message from Jesus. We all contain the power of Christ.

Originally Posted by joelr

There expectations on the purpose of the Messiah were not achieved through Jesus, which is common knowledge. But it is not the first time that they have historically, been wrong, is it?

Nope, historians are often wrong. Take for example Christian historians and aplogetics. I believe they teach a modified version of history.

Originally Posted by joelr

If you think academics is only unique to your perspective of the Biblical origin and purpose try me……i dare you!

I know you are great at copy and pasting text from pro Christian sites. I've seen this played out many times. It does not matter what I post, if you get stumped you'll just resort to - "it's a matter of faith". I already don't acknowledge Christian apologetics as accurate.
If you are not a conventional Christain religion, how do you use the apologetics to account for the inconsistencies in the Bible?

Originally Posted by joelr

Let me open your spiritual eyes which are evidentially closed. God was not isolated to the Jews only; nevertheless it was only them who stuck to almost all the objectives without being wise in their own eyes. If you believe that God created us all then it is my opinion that he in one way or another tried to reach us but without success. And chose to prepare a people for himself- the Jews, he chose to come down personally since his earlier efforts proved to be futile. You seem misinformed on the good intentions of God by limiting him to a single perspective.

Um...you mean my religious eyes are closed. Spiritually I believe I'm very open. God doesn't have to reach us, he is already here. I'd quote the Thomas gospel but since I know you don't believe that text is the word of God, I'm smart enough to refrain from posting that.
I do enjoy the irony of you, who limits God to a single perspective, claims I do the same. I believe most mythologies are referencing God. Some from a more base consciousness, like the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by joelr

It is your Biblical right to think and act otherwise!

It is your Unitarian right to think and act otherwise.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

When was the last time you read the Bible? You did not have to read any other book to get the most basic of its teachings. “And God created man in his on image, in the image of God created he them”

I read it often. Besides the inconsistencies and teachings that promote evil I think there is some great stuff in there.

The whole point about past mythologies is that to me Xianity is just a mythology that took earlier myths and created a newer version. Peter even acknowledges it. Of course he claims that "this time it's real", but I don't buy that.

[pianoperformer]

joelr,

Is there a copy of this Gospel of Thomas online somewhere? I've heard about it so much, I'm interested to read it.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120), an historian of first-century Rome, is considered one of the most accurate historians of the ancient world.
1- An excerpt from Tacitus tells us that the Roman emperor Nero "inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class...called Christians. ...Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...."

2-Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (A.D. 38-100+), wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities. From Josephus, "we learn that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.
3-Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Thallus also wrote about Christian worship and persecution that is consistent with New Testament accounts.
Even the Jewish Talmud, certainly not biased toward Jesus, concurs about the major events of his life. From the Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."
4-This is remarkable information considering that most ancient historians focused on political and military leaders, not on obscure rabbis from distant provinces of the Roman Empire. Yet ancient historians (Jews, Greeks and Romans) confirm the major events that are presented in the New Testament, even though they were not believers themselves. Borrowed from everystudent.com( why you can believe the Bible)

It really makes no sense to try a copy-paste debate. I don't mind Bible quotes. But the rest is pointless. There are 1000's of writings by people who claim to be abducted by grey ufos. I do not believe them. I don't care what they say or by whom they were wrote. Get over it.
At any rate, there is no non-Christian record of Jesus before the second century. References in Flavius Josephus (end of the first century) can be dismissed as later Christian insertions (Bishop Eusebius admitted it was ok to "lie for the Lord", had ties with Constantine like I said, and experts have concluded, that Eusebius forged the paragraph in question and then attributed it to your Jew for Jesus, Josephus) the writings of Roman historian Tacitus concerning the alleged historicity of Jesus are neither clear or specific - ample evidence exists to show that Tacitus was simply repeating what he had been told by Christian informants. I mean he identified Pilate by the rank of procurator, which title was a Roman administrative office from the second half of the first century!! The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus on the allegedly historic Jesus have undeniably been adulterated by others with a pro-Christian spin, and the observations of the Roman governor of Bithynia, Plithy the Younger, do not provide reliable evidence of Jesus’ actual existence. Blah, blah, blah...
You will not find these things from pro-Christian websites or books. I don't care, this stuff is so uninteresting. I've seen these debates before and am NOT interested. I've already spent countless hours reading this stuff. If historical quotes are all you've got, go away.

Your reason for believing is faith. Go for it, I don't care. My original quote that you interrupted, stands. The Jesus mythos is metaphorical to me.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

joelr,

Is there a copy of this Gospel of Thomas online somewhere? I've heard about it so much, I'm interested to read it.

Christian Texts



It helps to read about it also. On the PBS website Elaine Pagels (one of my favorite author/historians) gives a great rundown. In this view Jesus is teaching many of the same principles all spiritual teachers are teaching. So you can come to your own conclusions.

FRONTLINE: from jesus to christ: the story of the storytellers: the gospel of thomas | PBS

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

It really makes no sense to try a copy-paste debate. I don't mind Bible quotes. But the rest is pointless. There are 1000's of writings by people who claim to be abducted by grey ufos. I do not believe them. I don't care what they say or by whom they were wrote. Get over it..

Intransigence! I presume, seen it many a times, so no one is right except you and everybody else is wrong pending your declaration to the otherwise.

Originally Posted by joelr

At any rate, there is no non-Christian record of Jesus before the second century. References in Flavius Josephus (end of the first century) can be dismissed as later Christian insertions (Bishop Eusebius admitted it was ok to "lie for the Lord", had ties with Constantine like I said, and experts have concluded, that Eusebius forged the paragraph in question and then attributed it to your Jew for Jesus, Josephus) the writings of Roman historian Tacitus concerning the alleged historicity of Jesus are neither clear or specific - ample evidence exists to show that Tacitus was simply repeating what he had been told by Christian informants. I mean he identified Pilate by the rank of procurator, which title was a Roman administrative office from the second half of the first century!! The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus on the allegedly historic Jesus have undeniably been adulterated by others with a pro-Christian spin, and the observations of the Roman governor of Bithynia, Plithy the Younger, do not provide reliable evidence of Jesus’ actual existence. Blah, blah, blah....

Thousands of years from now historians shall dispute that George. W. Bush was not a president of the U.S.A, why? Because he used very un-presidential English; like mis-underestimated. Come on you know better than that; if we choose to judge someone for some written mistakes you wouldn’t be here know, would you? Get over it.

Originally Posted by joelr

You will not find these things from pro-Christian websites or books. I don't care, this stuff is so uninteresting. I've seen these debates before and am NOT interested. I've already spent countless hours reading this stuff. If historical quotes are all you've got, go away..

From an alleged historian am noticing a lot of bias in research, nothing appear pure to him whose only goal in life is to point out deficiencies; you go away.

Originally Posted by joelr

Your reason for believing is faith. Go for it, I don't care. My original quote that you interrupted, stands. The Jesus mythos is metaphorical to me.

What then is your reason of whatever it is that you do? I would rather copy and paste than struggle to look…………………!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

Nope, historians are often wrong. Take for example Christian historians and aplogetics. I believe they teach a modified version of history..

But I thought you said that only science is flexible to change………………?

Originally Posted by joelr

We use inductive logic for most things. That's how we know religion is based on faith not logic. Science is also based on inductive logic, but is flexible to change. I take the same approach to religion as well. Since the finding of the Thomas Gospel I modified my ideas of what Jesus was teaching.

Your own Words!!! Are you again complaining that faith has changed; I thought that was what you wanted? Make your mind!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

I read it often. Besides the inconsistencies and teachings that promote evil I think there is some great stuff in there..

The Bible determines what evil is and when it should be regarded as wickedness. Take an example of Sex it is only wicked when practiced in and for the wrong purpose or circumstances otherwise it is holy. You even don’t have the authority of questioning nor even determining what should or should not be considered as evil. Go away!

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Intransigence! I presume, seen it many a times, so no one is right except you and everybody else is wrong pending your declaration to the otherwise.

I don't think it qualifies as that, believing un-bendingly in Constantines people-controlling version of Christianity is the extreme position here. There is a known fact in spirituality that when we see something negative in others that makes us mad, we hate it because it is actually an aspect of ourself. Having such an extreme intransigence yourself causes you to see it in others.
The proof is in your words..."try me...I dare you...". That means - "try to prove me wrong, I am so intransigent that I am convinced it's impossible."

I think there are many paths to God, therefore no one is wrong. Some belief systems are just more base than others. We'll see some base thinking in a moment. Yes I do think fundamentalism is literally wrong but it does have some merit. So technically speaking I do not think everyone is wrong. Just you.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Thousands of years from now historians shall dispute that George. W. Bush was not a president of the U.S.A, why? Because he used very un-presidential English; like mis-underestimated. Come on you know better than that; if we choose to judge someone for some written mistakes you wouldn’t be here know, would you? Get over it.

Hmm, let's see, who was the one FIRST trying to use quotes to backup their position. Yeah, that would be you. Now I post historical text and it's not applicable. You should stop typing now.

Originally Posted by newsbone

From an alleged historian am noticing a lot of bias in research, nothing appear pure to him whose only goal in life is to point out deficiencies; you go away.

You post bias research, so I do to show you it's pointless and then you complain about me posting that research. Even though you also posted bias research! You interrupt my original post to point out deficiencies then try to build a strawman and use it against me. In other words, you point out deficiencies and then when I do it you suddenly try to make it a bad thing. As if I can't remember you just did it yourself!! It's like punching someone and when they punch you back you say, "hey it's wrong to punch people". Your rhetoric is awful. It's inconsistent, self centered (what applies to you doesn't apply to anyone else) and tedious to read. You don't even need me here, you're able to prove yourself wrong.

"you go away" - feel free to over use my diction.
I am away. I'm not hanging out at a fundamentalist forum, where I don't belong because just there to put down or convert anyone who doesn't think the way I do.

Originally Posted by newsbone

What then is your reason of whatever it is that you do? I would rather copy and paste than struggle to look…………………!

Is everyone who doesn't agree with you struggling in your opinion? I don't think so. I struggled when I was young with Constantines version of History. I see no need to discuss what it is that I do with you as you are clearly not here to discuss ideologies except in a manipulative or condescending way.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

But I thought you said that only science is flexible to change………………?



Your own Words!!! Are you again complaining that faith has changed; I thought that was what you wanted? Make your mind!

Science is flexible. Fundamentalism is not. There are different versions of fundamental Christianity but within each one the creeds must remain. If we developed a time machine and saw that the important creeds were false the religion would diffuse. Or return to Judaism? When a scientific fact is proven wrong science changes the books and grows stronger.
A liberal version of Christianity that concedes that the creeds MAY be just spiritual poetry/metaphors, and that the things in the Bible that promote violence may be disregarded would have no problem continuing. I don't really remember how this is relevant to this discussion.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

The Bible determines what evil is and when it should be regarded as wickedness. Take an example of Sex it is only wicked when practiced in and for the wrong purpose or circumstances otherwise it is holy. You even don’t have the authority of questioning nor even determining what should or should not be considered as evil. Go away!

Well there is the base thinking that Constantine wanted. Rip the power right out of the peoples hands. Give them no right to think for themselves. Thank you for that excellent example. We can see the brainwashing is alive and well. The average person does well with a Monarch-in-the-sky belief system. If angered or questioned too far they can resort to "you're going to hell - ha". It's a good system for control. Spiritually it keeps people on the most base level of consciousness.
I know you think I don’t have the authority of questioning nor even determining what should or should not be considered as evil. Along with anyone else who is not in your club. That's why I'm thankful the Church has been separated from state. You would be imprisoning all of us free thinkers. You're showing your true colors here. I knew you would sooner or later. How dare we think for ourself! This pisses you off. That's not spiritual, it's a religious monarchy. That system would strip us away of our basic rights as spiritual beings. That's the lowest and most base thing I've ever heard on this forum. Gross. And creepy.

Although did you not say we have a "biblical" right to think as we may? Has that now changed to suit your purpose. I cannot debate you any longer. You know not what you say.

About sex - I know, it's all over the bible. It's good to marry:Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable in all.
And bad: 1 Corinthians 7:1 It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

Adultery is not permitted, and then it is: Hosea 3:1 Then said the Lord unto me, God yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress.

Adultery should be punished: Leviticus 20:10, and go unpunished: John 8:3-8

You can rape a virgin: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 and rape prisoners of war, women and children only: Numbers 31:15-18 but who am I to say thats evil...

There is plenty more. You don't need to tell me.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

Well there is the base thinking that Constantine wanted. Rip the power right out of the peoples hands. Give them no right to think for themselves. Thank you for that excellent example. We can see the brainwashing is alive and well. The average person does well with a Monarch-in-the-sky belief system. If angered or questioned too far they can resort to "you're going to hell - ha". It's a good system for control..

I’m a Christian not a catholic; Hell was not created for people but for the Devil and his angels Bible reader! My faith is never dictated by any doctrine or dogma besides the Holy book.

Originally Posted by joelr

I know you think I don’t have the authority of questioning nor even determining what should or should not be considered as evil. Along with anyone else who is not in your club. That's why I'm thankful the Church has been separated from state. You would be imprisoning all of us free thinkers. You're showing your true colors here. I knew you would sooner or later. How dare we think for ourself! This pisses you off. That's not spiritual, it's a religious monarchy. That system would strip us away of our basic rights as spiritual beings. That's the lowest and most base thing I've ever heard on this forum. Gross. And creepy..

I am a free thinker this is why; despite my belief system, am a ‘senior’ member in this forum of liberated thinkers. I have changed religions many a time; this happens every moment am made to think that my liberty to suppose is threatened.

Originally Posted by joelr

Although did you not say we have a "biblical" right to think as we may? Has that now changed to suit your purpose. I cannot debate you any longer. You know not what you say..

In as much as I will miss your point of view I will respect your decision, furthermore; am fully aware of all that I am and all that I say and all that i believe in.

Originally Posted by joelr

About sex - I know, it's all over the bible. It's good to marry:Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable in all.
And bad: 1 Corinthians 7:1 It is good for a man not to touch a woman..

Good! Don’t you ever forget that or else hell will beckon! Ha!

Originally Posted by joelr

Adultery is not permitted, and then it is: Hosea 3:1 Then said the Lord unto me, God yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress.
Adultery should be punished: Leviticus 20:10, and go unpunished: John 8:3-8
You can rape a virgin: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 and rape prisoners of war, women and children only: Numbers 31:15-18.

Sorry I forgot to mention I am a Christian not a Jew! (No pun intended) I am in the likeness of Christ. And this what I believe;
“For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” -JOHN 1: 17
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it” –LUKE 16:16

Originally Posted by joelr

but who am I to say thats evil...
There is plenty more. You don't need to tell me.

Who, what, when determines Evil; not sentiment, that is once you have made that choice! just like i chose to do. Hope to read from you if you ever have a mind change, otherwise good-bye.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

You post bias research, so I do to show you it's pointless and then you complain about me posting that research. Even though you also posted bias research! You interrupt my original post to point out deficiencies then try to build a strawman and use it against me. In other words, you point out deficiencies and then when I do it you suddenly try to make it a bad thing. As if I can't remember you just did it yourself!! It's like punching someone and when they punch you back you say, "hey it's wrong to punch people". Your rhetoric is awful. It's inconsistent, self centered (what applies to you doesn't apply to anyone else) and tedious to read. You don't even need me here, you're able to prove yourself wrong.
.

Some strong words you have there am not that dumb I think! My rhetoric might be awful but am convinced it serves my purposes right! We are all biased, aren’t we? Biased toward what we believe to be true.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

I’m a Christian not a catholic; Hell was not created for people but for the Devil and his angels Bible reader! My faith is never dictated by any doctrine or dogma besides the Holy book.

No according to your book hell is for people.
Revelation 20:14-15
Revelation 14:10-11
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
John 5:28-29
Luke 16:22-24
Daniel 12:2
Matthew 13:41-42
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 25:41, 46
Mark 9:43-48

Seems even god wants some to go to hell:
Romans 9:18
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

There are passages saying the opposite, this just proves the system is incomplete, inconsistent... it's ok, mythology is not perfect.

Originally Posted by newsbone

I am a free thinker this is why; despite my belief system, am a ‘senior’ member in this forum of liberated thinkers. I have changed religions many a time; this happens every moment am made to think that my liberty to suppose is threatened.

You're a free thinker? I thought you said you were a fundamentalist Christian? AND better then everyone else? The Axiom "when you think you know, you don't" proved to be a truism once again.
I do think however changing religions is a sign of free thinking.

Originally Posted by newsbone

In as much as I will miss your point of view I will respect your decision, furthermore; am fully aware of all that I am and all that I say and all that i believe in.

So the inconsistent rhetoric is on purpose?

Originally Posted by newsbone

Good! Don’t you ever forget that or else hell will beckon! Ha!

Where did the rape part go? Hmmm, funny how you left that out.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Sorry I forgot to mention I am a Christian not a Jew! (No pun intended) I am in the likeness of Christ. And this what I believe;
“For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” -JOHN 1: 17
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it” –LUKE 16:16

And? That doesn't negate the evil laws I posted? Now you can rape and get good news too!

Actually, let's look at something less ambiguous on that matter.

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Jesus says that the Old Testament laws are binding on everyone forever.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



In fact since the Bible is so full of contradictions, here we can just figure out which side has more evidence. Keeping Old Testament laws win. You lose.

Genesis 17:19

Exodus 12:14, 17, 24

Leviticus 23:14,21,31

Deuteronomy 4:8-9

Deuteronomy 7:9

Deuteronomy 11:1

Deuteronomy 11:26-28


1 Chronicles 16:15

Psalm 119:151-2

Psalm 119:160

Malachi 4:4

Matthew 5:18-19


Luke 16:17

Originally Posted by newsbone

Who, what, when determines Evil; not sentiment, that is once you have made that choice! just like i chose to do. Hope to read from you if you ever have a mind change, otherwise good-bye.

Yes I believe evil is relative. You do not have that choice. You have to go by Constantines version.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

My rhetoric might be awful but am convinced it serves my purposes right! We are all biased, aren’t we? Biased toward what we believe to be true.

Well inconsis...never mind, I'll just drop it. Yes we are all biased.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by joelr

No according to your book hell is for people.

People who choose to go there out of freewill- it has always been about option but that is not the original intention of Hell.

Originally Posted by joelr

No according to your book hell is for people.
Revelation 20:14-15
Revelation 14:10-11
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
John 5:28-29
Luke 16:22-24
Daniel 12:2
Matthew 13:41-42
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 25:41, 46
Mark 9:43-48
Seems even god wants some to go to hell:
Romans 9:18
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
There are passages saying the opposite, this just proves the system is incomplete, inconsistent... it's ok, mythology is not perfect.

Why will people end up in hell even though it was not made for them? The answer is simple; SIN. We choose to go there on our own volition via disobedience. God does not push us there or nobody points a gun at you to force you to go there; you decide when you opt to contravene the rules set before you. Everything survives by obeying a given set of laws, why should you be different? As vehicles were not made for accidents, these do not stop mishaps from happening.

Originally Posted by joelr

You're a free thinker? I thought you said you were a fundamentalist Christian? AND better then everyone else? The Axiom "when you think you know, you don't" proved to be a truism once again.
I do think however changing religions is a sign of free thinking..

That I am! Just because I have made a choice does not in anyway inhibit my freedom to think. Do you consider yourself one, I think so but you don’t sound that to me. I am a fundamentalist Christian by choice, I made the decision without coercision of any kind, I put my freedom of choice to practice which further proves my liberty. What is your proof apart from the seemingly adolescent rebellion to religion?

Originally Posted by joelr

So the inconsistent rhetoric is on purpose?.

Inconsistent no! Purposeful yes! Am not responsible for your continuous mis-underestimating, you are.

Originally Posted by joelr

Where did the rape part go? Hmmm, funny how you left that out.

And? That doesn't negate the evil laws I posted? Now you can rape and get good news too!.

I’m I detecting selective understanding here or what! Sin is determined by why, where and when. How does one determine the difference between murder and self defense? The same thing but different situations. In other words if the situation allowed it then it does not now! Take it or leave it.

Originally Posted by joelr

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus says that the Old Testament laws are binding on everyone forever.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. .

It is quite an interesting observation from you, now let me educate on the difference on the two approaches to the same law; in Matthew 5:27, 32-32 Jesus exposes them by saying;

“You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery’. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart”.
The law only identified the actual action as sin but with the coming of the truth even the intentions within the mind is subject to judgment. Do you consider this advance as part of the Mosaic Law? And for further information the law was fulfilled on the Cross!

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery”

Originally Posted by joelr

Yes I believe evil is relative. You do not have that choice. You have to go by Constantines version.

Why don’t you just die go to hell and finish your bitterness with this Constantine fellow?

[joelr]

Originally Posted by newsbone

What is your proof apart from the seemingly adolescent rebellion to religion?

Mr Superior,

Sorry, it's an adult rebellion about a ripped off from past mythologies, especially the Pagan God Mithras, inconsistent, contradicting, biasly written, people controlling, monarch loving, simplistic, Constantine created, child like version of mythology that causes an ego based non-spiritual attitude inflation (seen here). The poetry has been mis-interpreted for prose.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Why will people end up in hell even though it was not made for them? The answer is simple; SIN. We choose to go there on our own volition via disobedience.

Oh I thought you were saying people don't go to hell.
In your mythology everyone has sinned:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Or not:

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
3 John 11
He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

You can use an animal sacrifice if you do happen to sin anyway.
Leviticus 17:11

Originally Posted by newsbone

I put my freedom of choice to practice which further proves my liberty.

Free choice and free thinking are not the same thing. I'm free to become a Mormon anytime I want. Doesn't make me a free thinker.

Besides you don't have freewill: Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Inconsistent no! Purposeful yes! Am not responsible for your continuous mis-underestimating, you are.

So you are not able to recognize your inconsistency? Do you need a further breakdown of what inconsistency means? It's all there, still online to see. Shall I make a diagram? To you have the capacity to recognize such a thing?
Watch this:
I LIKE ME USING BIAS ONLINE REFERENCES. I DO NOT LIKE YOU USING BIAS ONLINE REFERENCES.
can you see the difference? we call that i/n/c/o/n/s/i/s/t/e/n/c/y/

Originally Posted by newsbone

I’m I detecting selective understanding here or what! Sin is determined by why, where and when. How does one determine the difference between murder and self defense? The same thing but different situations. In other words if the situation allowed it then it does not now! Take it or leave it.

I already said evil is relative. You can't say that being a fundy. You don't have the authority remember. Uh oh, i/n/c/o/n/s/i/.....

Originally Posted by newsbone

It is quite an interesting observation from you, now let me educate on the difference on the two approaches to the same law; in Matthew 5:27, 32-32 Jesus exposes them by saying;

Don't worry your god likes adultery sometimes.
Numbers 31:18
Hosea 1:2
Hosea 3:1

Originally Posted by newsbone

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery”

WRONG. When the 'unbelieving' partner chooses to leave. 1 Corinthinians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Why don’t you just die go to hell and finish your bitterness with this Constantine fellow?

HA! I predicted this earlier. I'll let that speak for itself! Took ya long enough!

[newsbone]

.

Originally Posted by joelr

Mr Superior,

Sorry, it's an adult rebellion about a ripped off from past mythologies, especially the Pagan God Mithras, inconsistent, contradicting, biasly written, people controlling, monarch loving, simplistic, Constantine created, child like version of mythology that causes an ego based non-spiritual attitude inflation (seen here). The poetry has been mis-interpreted for prose.!

What a misconception you have there, what is this but hogwash? Has it ever occurred to you that Christianity owes its foundation on the Jewish religion which pre-dates Mithraism? What is wrong with your prejudiced history, as you must be well aware Mithraism had no concept of the death and resurrection of its god and no place for any concept of rebirth -- at least during its early stages...During the early stages of the cult, the notion of rebirth would have been foreign to its basic outlook. And if then it was included, it was while it developed as a form of religion. If my history serves me right "While there are several sources that suggest that Mithraism included a notion of rebirth, they are all post-Christian. The earliest...dates from the end of the second century A.D”

All the foundational teachings of Christianity has the scriptural backing in the Old Testament, which as far as you are concerned is not related to your boyfriend Constantine

.

Originally Posted by joelr

Oh I thought you were saying people don't go to hell.
In your mythology everyone has sinned:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.!

Come on! Finish the verse, your selective obsession is affecting your perspective, why do you choose to jump verse 9 of the same chapter? It reads;
“ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
What is this, I must win no matter what sort of thing? Does this then imply your approach to history; don’t mention what will make us irrelevant, sort of argument?

Originally Posted by joelr

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
3 John 11
He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.!

You mean you can’t even understand the basis of this simple advice to remind people of their divine obligation not to sin? Who have I been conversing with, your brother, put him on, you can continue playing hide and seek.

Originally Posted by joelr

Free choice and free thinking are not the same thing. I'm free to become a Mormon anytime I want. Doesn't make me a free thinker.!

This is becoming more interesting; what does the exercise of freedom of choice make you? Ooops! I forgot historians are trained free thinkers within the confines of narration of their version of the past as seen today! How can you even consider yourself a free thinker, whilst your perspective is heavily influenced by one department of knowledge?

Originally Posted by joelr

Besides you don't have freewill: Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.!

Speak of double standards! You made a choice to study and believe whatever history will teach you, does that make you a free thinker when all your decisions are heavily borrowed from other peoples perspective (facts are personal opinions) of the past? As a Christian I live by the Word of God and within that (just like your infatuation with history) am free to make choices including disobedience to the very teaching( if i choose to) this is something egocentrics cant do.

Originally Posted by joelr

Don't worry your god likes adultery sometimes.
Numbers 31:18
Hosea 1:2
Hosea 3:1!

You seem fascinated with rape and adultery! What are the moral teachings behind these verses? Obviously your selective mind cannot grasp this higher teachings.

Originally Posted by joelr

WRONG. When the 'unbelieving' partner chooses to leave. 1 Corinthinians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. !

Ha! You can’t have your cake and eat it. We very special to be bonded to such unbelievers as you.

Originally Posted by joelr

HA! I predicted this earlier. I'll let that speak for itself! Took ya long enough!

Keep on! Prophet of Doom!