Is No Evidence for God is Evidence for No God?

[angus]

My latest blog entry, No Evidence for God is Evidence for No God addresses that question in a way that Steve Pavlina readers might enjoy. As always, I love your feedback: readers referred from this site average about 5 pages per visit (one day, 4 visitors averaged 15 pages and 20 minutes—wow!) so I view y'all as an important referent.

cheers,
Angus

[joecooool]

for starters let me say i have no belief in god.

next, no evidence for god is only evidence for no god in the places and ways we have looked.

[TonyToneTone]

Just look at the order in the universe, the evolvement of life. That should be evidence that there is some universal power at work.

[CptnObvious21]

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

Just look at the order in the universe, the evolvement of life. That should be evidence that there is some universal power at work.

The order in the Universe and the evolution of life are things we're getting closer and closer to understanding in scientific terms. No grand Creator, no watchful pantheon, but simply some fundamental laws and a lot of statistics. The fact that we find certain things beautiful or elegant has to do with the way our minds happen to have evolved - not with any all-encompassing design. The arrogance of the thought that the Universe in all its complexity was created to serve the curiosities and aesthetics of a random species on a random world is mind-boggling.

This is simultaneously disturbing and comforting to me, but in a battle of reason vs faith I'm throwing my chips in with reason every time.

[TonyToneTone]

Originally Posted by CptnObvious21

The order in the Universe and the evolution of life are things we're getting closer and closer to understanding in scientific terms. No grand Creator, no watchful pantheon, but simply some fundamental laws and a lot of statistics. The fact that we find certain things beautiful or elegant has to do with the way our minds happen to have evolved - not with any all-encompassing design. The arrogance of the thought that the Universe in all its complexity was created to serve the curiosities and aesthetics of a random species on a random world is mind-boggling.

This is simultaneously disturbing and comforting to me, but in a battle of reason vs faith I'm throwing my chips in with reason every time.

I would have to disagree with you. When you really observe it, it shows that there is some kind of hand at work, constantly evolving toward whatever it's ultimate end is.

Something cannot be created out of nothing. We came from somewhere and are going somewhere. I would say there is MORE evidence in favor of God then there is against it. Just look at the evolution of life, the order of the cosmos, and so on.

By the way, by God, I mean some universal power, not an old man sitting on a throne throwing lightning bolts at people.

[joecooool]

Originally Posted by TonyToneTone

I would have to disagree with you. When you really observe it, it shows that there is some kind of hand at work, constantly evolving toward whatever it's ultimate end is.

Something cannot be created out of nothing. We came from somewhere and are going somewhere. I would say there is MORE evidence in favor of God then there is against it. Just look at the evolution of life, the order of the cosmos, and so on.

By the way, by God, I mean some universal power, not an old man sitting on a throne throwing lightning bolts at people.

some universal power? ya no kidding, its called the universe. matter and energy, space, the laws of nature.

god is just a three letter word for universe.

if you disagree please prove the universe alone cannot form stars, planets, and life. as not only is it the default belief that it can, but we also have tons of evidence that in support of it. and 0 evidence of any kind of god.

oh and the people that believe in god are the ones saying something came from nothing. god created the universe out of nothing. atheists generally believe matter and energy is eternal and therefore not created.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by CptnObvious21

The arrogance of the thought that the Universe in all its complexity was created to serve the curiosities and aesthetics of a random species on a random world is mind-boggling.

I would say that the atheist worldview comes to that same conclusion. A human being that is a speck of dust in the universe is so arrogant to think that from what little information he has, he can safely assume there is no greater intelligence than himself.

This is simultaneously disturbing and comforting to me, but in a battle of reason vs faith I'm throwing my chips in with reason every time.

The proposition that there may be a creator of this universe does not assume a belief in what that creator is. It says that we don't know. And considering that there is an order to the universe that humans can only badly imitate, there is more evidence to support the existence of a higher intelligence than our flimsy ideological constructions of what we think is going on.

[aphorist]

Is there a difference between God and source or consciousness? If we're talking about an external ego "God," then maybe. Otherwise they are the same as any new ageist will tell you.

On the topic of Reason vs Faith, I've always sided with reason. And reason says that beliefs matter. And so reason has dictated that I should have faith. There's no debate between the two for me.

[newsbone]

In the not too distant future the artificially intelligent computers will deny having been made by man's feeble hands.They will comvince themselves(or is it itselves?) that they did not not have a beggining thus have been there since(what?). It is in the nature of the created beings in their bid to feel important or relevant, look for excuses(camouflaged as reasons) to dis-associate with the superior creature. i encounter the same with my kids as they push and shove for superiority and relevance in my house using reasons, sorry; excuses to prove a point that they think am ignorant about. They forget that 'Not saying is a proof of knowing'. So continue making your noice after answering this simple questions; Why are you here on earth;your purpose on earth? How did life begin, not how it evolved? Dont give excuses but solid and tangible proof, not theories which are just educated guesses and opinions.

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by newsbone

In the not too distant future the artificially intelligent computers will deny having been made by man's feeble hands.They will comvince themselves(or is it itselves?) that they did not not have a beggining thus have been there since(what?). It is in the nature of the created beings in their bid to feel important or relevant, look for excuses(camouflaged as reasons) to dis-associate with the superior creature.

So what's your point?

Is the computer's recognition of it being created by Humans really going to help it? Does thanking humans every day of its existence give it more meaning or a different purpose? Does knowing the history of its creation mean anything at all? If the computer stops doing the functions humans input into it to, instead, worship its creators, does that make it a better, or worse, computer?

From the other side: As a human (God of the computers in this case), do you even care if computers recognize that you created them? Are you that petty that you need recognition from an inferior being? Wouldn't you be more bothered if computers stopped computing and started worshiping?

My point is that maybe a god with a conscious reason did create us. But it surely didn't do it with a purpose of worship. And therefore, to worship it is blasphemous. So, newsbone, what is your purpose on earth?

[newsbone]

[QUOTE=aphorist;324294]So what's your point?


My point is quite simple;

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Ecclessiastes 12:13,14

What will you do to a computer that refuses/stops doing what you made it for? (God made us to worship him). Obviously, you will try to repair it (the presence of God’s repair manual-BIBLE) and if you fail to return it to what you believe to be normal, you will do what we all do, throw it away to be destroyed ( the purpose of hell). You have not answered my questions yet.

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by newsbone

What will you do to a computer that refuses/stops doing what you made it for? (God made us to worship him). Obviously, you will try to repair it (the presence of God’s repair manual-BIBLE) and if you fail to return it to what you believe to be normal, you will do what we all do, throw it away to be destroyed ( the purpose of hell). You have not answered my questions yet.

Oh, so you really do think that God, with his infinite wisdom above ourselves, created humans to worship him... uh huh.

That's a petty God if you ask me. But if you find this to be the most fulfilling way to live, then by all means believe and continue.

If your question is how life began, my answer is that the question isn't necessary. Therefore, why spend energy restling with it?

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by aphorist

Oh, so you really do think that God, with his infinite wisdom above ourselves, created humans to worship him... uh huh.

That's a petty God if you ask me. But if you find this to be the most fulfilling way to live, then by all means believe and continue.

If your question is how life began, my answer is that the question isn't necessary. Therefore, why spend energy restling with it?

It is not what i think but what it is! It is not for you or me to determine the general purpose of our being but rather to obey.Our feelings can not change,alter or choose the divine principle.We can come up with all manner manner of NEW AGE philosophy as much as we can, but at the end of the day, science can not answer all the questions as it is limited to our finite imagination. For how long will humanity only answer the questions that satisfy their egos, and sturbbonly choose to refuse the knowledge of theTRUTH.
Im convinced there is a vacuum in your life that you are trying to fill, but escapism wont do you any good. All that you believe now will change in the near future because a certain person will have discovered the better way to the truth, it will keep on changing and you know it; Be well APHORIST>

[timothydrake]

Originally Posted by newsbone

It is not what i think but what it is! It is not for you or me to determine the general purpose of our being but rather to obey.Our feelings can not change,alter or choose the divine principle.We can come up with all manner manner of NEW AGE philosophy as much as we can, but at the end of the day, science can not answer all the questions as it is limited to our finite imagination. For how long will humanity only answer the questions that satisfy their egos, and sturbbonly choose to refuse the knowledge of theTRUTH.
Im convinced there is a vacuum in your life that you are trying to fill, but escapism wont do you any good. All that you believe now will change in the near future because a certain person will have discovered the better way to the truth, it will keep on changing and you know it; Be well APHORIST>

So if you can't beat 'em join em. And if our views are gonna be yesterday's philosophy, then why even bother. Also who knows what the truth is. If you claim you do you are spewing bullshat. We all have our POV. It just proves that we all unique and should just live and let live.

[newsbone]

[QUOTE=timothydrake;324355] Also who knows what the truth is. If you claim you do you are spewing bullshat.

I don’t know the truth?......no, no, no you are the one who has just confessed that you do not? Just because one mortal is unaware does not make everyone is ignorant. Neither does it prove that truth is absent; question should rather be ‘Are you prepared for the truth? The simple definition of truth is;
1. The way it is, not the way it seems to you.
2. The way it is, not the way you think it is.
3. The way it is, not the way it should look.
4. The way it is, not the way you say it is.
5. The way it is, not the manner you state that it should look like.
In all the five points, your decision/opinion does not matter because; it is always influenced by the opinions of those we trust, and more often than not changed to suit another new knowledge, system or fashion. Another on-song philosopher will dispute what you believe today tomorrow, unfortunately for you to be relevant you have to change your set of once irrefutable faith. The Biblical truth has stood the test of time, through generations it has changed people for the better- only religionists use it fulfill their personal agendas and quest for power, taking advantage of the gullibility and ignorance of their flock. Jesus is the truth and out of him cometh nothing but the truth, this the true faith.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

[Andrew Brunelle]

It depends what kind of God you're looking for. There is no invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do and has a list of ten things he does not want you to do. He is not of the same image as us and is more of an energy than a father figure. The Christian way of a God is very dangerous because the belief that the world was created for man and no other creatures has caused the world to be in ruins. I would have to say that if there is a God, he believes that ALL LIFE is valuable on its own terms and that destruction of that life beyond what is needed for survival is going to be unsustainable and hurt us all in the long run.

[sirkinm]

I'm enjoying the thread, and I hope that proponents of aethism will ignore the commenters who use ancient books as a basis for the pro-God arugment.

The question I want to ask is: Not only does life exist, but existence is. Why is there anything?

I see people get into arguments based on whether certain conditions could give rise to life, or whether it needs a god to animate it. Regardless, why is there anything in the first place? Even if it all arose out of a single quantum particle, why is there any level of existence at all? Who cares if there is a greater being, or if we ourselves are creating it, or whatever -- why is there anything?

If you say that there is no god, just the universe, it seems to me that the universe is a kind of god -- it is a grand canvas on which our existence depends, and which serves its own mysterious purpose.

Why does such an infinitely complex universe exist? The fact that anyone can take a stance at all kind of defies me -- our limited senses can't really approach such a vast subject, imo.

[aphorist]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Im convinced there is a vacuum in your life that you are trying to fill, but escapism wont do you any good. All that you believe now will change in the near future because a certain person will have discovered the better way to the truth, it will keep on changing and you know it; Be well APHORIST>

You're convinced there's a vacuum in my life that I'm trying to fill? That's really interesting, because I can tell you first-hand that there isn't. Throughout this thread, I never actually told you what I believe, so how do you know it will change in the future?

Here's the thing, newsbone, everything existential is based internally. It must be. Look inside and find your "truths," don't let passed down parables dictate your behavior. Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with your path, but please know that it isn't the only path. Right/wrong and good/bad are constructs of humanity, they aren't real. So there is no right path, they are all equally valid.

[timothydrake]

Originally Posted by newsbone

[QUOTE=timothydrake;324355] Also who knows what the truth is. If you claim you do you are spewing bullshat.

I don’t know the truth?......no, no, no you are the one who has just confessed that you do not? Just because one mortal is unaware does not make everyone is ignorant. Neither does it prove that truth is absent; question should rather be ‘Are you prepared for the truth? The simple definition of truth is;
1. The way it is, not the way it seems to you.
2. The way it is, not the way you think it is.
3. The way it is, not the way it should look.
4. The way it is, not the way you say it is.
5. The way it is, not the manner you state that it should look like.
In all the five points, your decision/opinion does not matter because; it is always influenced by the opinions of those we trust, and more often than not changed to suit another new knowledge, system or fashion. Another on-song philosopher will dispute what you believe today tomorrow, unfortunately for you to be relevant you have to change your set of once irrefutable faith. The Biblical truth has stood the test of time, through generations it has changed people for the better- only religionists use it fulfill their personal agendas and quest for power, taking advantage of the gullibility and ignorance of their flock. Jesus is the truth and out of him cometh nothing but the truth, this the true faith.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

It's obvious you are a hardcore believer and I applaud your faith. I will not start to attempt to bang my head against your wall. I have my POV and am happy where I stand.

[joecooool]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I would say that the atheist worldview comes to that same conclusion. A human being that is a speck of dust in the universe is so arrogant to think that from what little information he has, he can safely assume there is no greater intelligence than himself.

as an atheist i dont assume their is no greater intelligence then myself. i simply lack the belief in god due to a complete lack of evidence and logic in support of the existence of a god. the exact same way you lack the belief in bigfoot.

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

The proposition that there may be a creator of this universe does not assume a belief in what that creator is. It says that we don't know. And considering that there is an order to the universe that humans can only badly imitate, there is more evidence to support the existence of a higher intelligence than our flimsy ideological constructions of what we think is going on.

order in the universe does not support the existence of god, non sequitor fallacy. it supports the existence of an ordered universe and that's all.

[joecooool]

Originally Posted by newsbone

[QUOTE=timothydrake;324355] Also who knows what the truth is. If you claim you do you are spewing bullshat.

I don’t know the truth?......no, no, no you are the one who has just confessed that you do not? Just because one mortal is unaware does not make everyone is ignorant. Neither does it prove that truth is absent; question should rather be ‘Are you prepared for the truth? The simple definition of truth is;
1. The way it is, not the way it seems to you.
2. The way it is, not the way you think it is.
3. The way it is, not the way it should look.
4. The way it is, not the way you say it is.
5. The way it is, not the manner you state that it should look like.
In all the five points, your decision/opinion does not matter because; it is always influenced by the opinions of those we trust, and more often than not changed to suit another new knowledge, system or fashion. Another on-song philosopher will dispute what you believe today tomorrow, unfortunately for you to be relevant you have to change your set of once irrefutable faith. The Biblical truth has stood the test of time, through generations it has changed people for the better- only religionists use it fulfill their personal agendas and quest for power, taking advantage of the gullibility and ignorance of their flock. Jesus is the truth and out of him cometh nothing but the truth, this the true faith.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

if the bible proves god exists then my comics prove superman exists.

[timothydrake]

Originally Posted by joecooool

if the bible proves god exists then my comics prove superman exists.

How do I set that as my quote?

[wolfgang]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[Pyper900]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

The presence of faith is not proof of divine providence.

As complex as science is in explaining our universe and its contents, it is still far simpler than when considered along side a God.

[joecooool]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

yes it is, in the areas and ways we have looked

but not in the areas and way we have not looked

for example: are you telling me if i look in a small closed box and dont see anything that i have no evidence that there is nothing in the box? in this case absence of evidence would be evidence of absence.

but if i look only in one side of the box that is not evidence that there is nothing in the box. and so absence of evidence would not be evidence of absence.

and so to compare that we have not looked everywhere in the universe. and have not looked outside the universe, and have not looked all possible ways in those areas. and so our lack of evidence for a god so far is not evidence of his lack.

it is only evidence of his lack in the ways and areas we have looked. but not evidence of his lack in totality.

but of course just because a god is still possible doesn't mean we are justified in believing one exists. belief requires a probability not just a mere possibility. and so agnostic atheism stands as the most logical position.

[angus]

Wow, great thread—funny how tools like newsbone can spark a useful discussion! I had one like him stalking my blog for a while; liked to use 'logic' but was always essentially saying that he was right because God was so great, and never produced anything like evidence. Whatever: if they've had a vision, fine, but I'm not obligated to accept their vision.

From the title of the post that got things started, most would say I'm an atheist, but this isn't actually the case. I'm definitely not a deist, but I lean agnostic. My feeling is, a universe that contains human brains must be at least as intelligent as the sum of its parts, and maybe smarter. Plus, exeriential evidence proves to me that the all-that-is 'dances' with humans who engage it via affirmation, visualization, magick, etc.

cheers,
Angus

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by sirkinm

I'm enjoying the thread, and I hope that proponents of aethism will ignore the commenters who use ancient books as a basis for the pro-God arugment.

This exactly my point; how soon will your will belief become ancient 10, 15 or 20 years? Yesterday, today, tomorrow, or ancient as you put it is just a matter of time and place. Does the ANCIENT BOOK not surprise you for its persistence over the ages with people like you around? How many new theories have come and disappeared, being considered as significant today and tomorrow declared irrelevant or in your own word- ANCIENT?
The arguments in support of the non-existence of God sound like that of a defense lawyer who finds fault in everything no matter how valid it might be. Lawyers defend rapists even when it is pointedly clear to him/her that, the client raped a child. Justice they say, evil I say. What kind of evidence has science given you of the non-existence of God? Science is imagination, which is supported with well-tailored arguments that are then disputed after some period. It is limited to what one can see. What is in the fourth dimension, a part from the idea that it exists? You seem to be the kind who find mistakes in anything that you do not, cannot or have refused to understand just because it is old(ancient).
Superman???? Is this a joke? A typical mind of a person who wants to deitify mortals, a good friend of yours i presume

[joecooool]

Originally Posted by newsbone

This exactly my point; how soon will your will belief become ancient 10, 15 or 20 years? Yesterday, today, tomorrow, or ancient as you put it is just a matter of time and place. Does the ANCIENT BOOK not surprise you for its persistence over the ages with people like you around? How many new theories have come and disappeared, being considered as significant today and tomorrow declared irrelevant or in your own word- ANCIENT?
The arguments in support of the non-existence of God sound like that of a defense lawyer who finds fault in everything no matter how valid it might be. Lawyers defend rapists even when it is pointedly clear to him/her that, the client raped a child. Justice they say, evil I say. What kind of evidence has science given you of the non-existence of God? Science is imagination, which is supported with well-tailored arguments that are then disputed after some period. It is limited to what one can see. What is in the fourth dimension, a part from the idea that it exists? You seem to be the kind who find mistakes in anything that you do not, cannot or have refused to understand just because it is old(ancient).
Superman???? Is this a joke? A typical mind of a person who wants to deitify mortals, a good friend of yours i presume

ok your argument is lots of ppl beliving something really old means its true? LOL then hinduism and islam are more true then christianty. you have just refuted your own god.

and actually atheism would still beat them all. as it was around before man invented these gods. atheism outlives all gods.

next science doesn't need to provide any evidence against god. and atheists dont need any arguments in support of the non existence of god. the burden of proof is on you! im an atheist because YOU have yet to provide any evidence for your positive claim that a god exists. and because i can refute all YOUR arguments in support of god. atheism is the default position until you prove otherwise. we were all born atheists.

atheism = no belief in god, because there is no more evidence or logic for god then there is for superman.

science is not imagination. it is logical explanations of empirical evidence. its not that science is limited, its that WE are limited. your religion is nothing but outdated science. old methods of understanding he world from back in the dark ages. well we know better now. and if it wasnt for your religion holding back science we would be exploring the galaxy by now.

ive been an atheist for years. i can back atheism as the superior position scientifically, philosophically, and spiritually. i have never backed down from a debate or lost one in my life.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by joecooool

yes it is, in the areas and ways we have looked

but not in the areas and way we have not looked

for example: are you telling me if i look in a small closed box and dont see anything that i have no evidence that there is nothing in the box? in this case absence of evidence would be evidence of absence.

that breaks the logic - because if you look in the box you have your evidence.

but if i look only in one side of the box that is not evidence that there is nothing in the box. and so absence of evidence would not be evidence of absence.

and so to compare that we have not looked everywhere in the universe. and have not looked outside the universe, and have not looked all possible ways in those areas. and so our lack of evidence for a god so far is not evidence of his lack.

it is only evidence of his lack in the ways and areas we have looked. but not evidence of his lack in totality.

but of course just because a god is still possible doesn't mean we are justified in believing one exists. belief requires a probability not just a mere possibility. and so agnostic atheism stands as the most logical position.

I'm sorry - I was just trying to be funny. It's so serious around here. I heard that saying on Hottest news and video tagged - boondocks but I think they were making a parody of Rumsfeld

"There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist." -on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction

carry on...

[David Cain]

I was going to post my thoughts on this but I guess I already did on Angus' blog. Anybody interested in this topic (and you all seem to be) should check it out Belief Systems & Other BS if you haven't yet, the post quality is uncommonly high.