What is ascension? Ascension to where?

[Trina]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

I see your point and it makes sense. I am correct in what happens to God's chosen people, but incorrect in who those chosen people are. So it is true that denouncing Christ loses your place in heaven. Thank you, Internal_Affairs12. I see now how much more important the choice for Jesus really is for ALL of us.

LOL, then I must be DOOMED.

It's one thing to say that in your own life a belief in Jesus helps you to find peace or joy. Quite another to imply that we all need Jesus to find it and if we don't have Jesus we will go to hell.

Why don't we get back on topic?

[Joshiepoo3000]

The choice only needs to be made in to believe or not to. If you have closed your mind to Jesus, then your choice has been made. I am indifferent to that decision. NOt my choice to make. If people want to deny teachers of peace then that is fine by me. I am not here to hold anyones hand.

As far as the topic at hand, if you ask about ascension and enlightenment don't be disgruntled to hear more answers than you asked for. As far as coming with the belief I have as factual, well I don't plan on listening to anyone that talks about something they don't understand as factual. I don't enjoy speaking on a basis of speculation.

This forum is called Personal Development for Smart People for a reason. How can anyone develope an understanding in anything if they don't keep an open mind to learning? People close their ears to what I have to say because they hate my religion. They chose their responses to be condescending because they don't take my input seriously. How are we collectively going to understand something if people chose to remain ignorant of what other people think? I value everyone's ideas, except when they are condescending of mine. At that point I become defensive. We must respect one another if we are going to reach any "development."

[Trina]

I don't hate your religion, I just don't like seeing how Jesus is such an important choice for "ALL of us" when not "ALL of us" believe in Jesus. I never said I hated anything, and I would appreciate if you didn't act like I did just to make your point. So, I really hope you weren't referring to me in that little statement. As far as talking about what is "factual", I hardly believe that god, God, or Jesus the savior of men has any basis in fact per se. Lots of people have FAITH in them/him, but facts are something that religion is lacking, hence the need for faith. I'm not saying that's a BAD thing necessarily, just the way it is, and why I don't personally believe. I have a hard time believing in things I can't see so faith is a stretch for me. You are free to believe as you wish, I just don't want it pushed on me.

Part of respecting one another is accepting that not everybody believes the same things that you do.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

I believe in Jesus and in a sense I do believe he was the son of God...cuz I believe everything and everyone I see is only a fragment of God's consciousness. I just don't like Christianity in general. I think of Jesus as a wise man who may possibly been enlightened like a buddha(something everyone has the potential to be). He had alot of good things to say but I take it all with a grain of salt. Heck I look like Jesus...how can I not call him a friend. The way you write just kind of puts me off Joshiepoo but I have nothing but love for you.

[ethereal]

i recommend reading david hawkin's work, he explains how the original teachings of the enlightened avatars of history (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc) got diluted and corrupted by the egos of unenlightened men and the church officials trying to keep political and religious power. It explains all the logical "quirks" with Chrisitianity and God that puts people off; they're actually false and have nothing to do with true Christianity, which is Jesus Christ's teachings only, i.e. screw the old testament and book of revelations which are mostly false and of astral origin.

anyway, yes..back on topic i've noticed that things have speeded up tremendously, especially my own personal spiritual evolution. Other people have noticed that as well, people who used to spend 10 years to grow in consciousness, people nowadays only take 6 months to 1 year to get to the same level. I think the fields of consciousness (or Light or M-fields or frequency, however you want to define it) is getting stronger and making the path easier to tread for everybody else. Extrapolating ahead 6 years, it makes sense that in 2012 something big is gonna happen

[Joshiepoo3000]

Originally Posted by Trina

I don't hate your religion, I just don't like seeing how Jesus is such an important choice for "ALL of us" when not "ALL of us" believe in Jesus. I never said I hated anything, and I would appreciate if you didn't act like I did just to make your point. So, I really hope you weren't referring to me in that little statement. As far as talking about what is "factual", I hardly believe that god, God, or Jesus the savior of men has any basis in fact per se. Lots of people have FAITH in them/him, but facts are something that religion is lacking, hence the need for faith. I'm not saying that's a BAD thing necessarily, just the way it is, and why I don't personally believe. I have a hard time believing in things I can't see so faith is a stretch for me. You are free to believe as you wish, I just don't want it pushed on me.

Part of respecting one another is accepting that not everybody believes the same things that you do.

This is in reference to the last part of your quote. It should be common sense that your final statement agrees with this statement: "The choice only needs to be made in to believe or not to. If you have closed your mind to Jesus, then your choice has been made. I am indifferent to that decision. NOt my choice to make. If people want to deny teachers of peace then that is fine by me. I am not here to hold anyones hand." Your belief is your belief and that is your choice. Don't say it as if I never said it.

How can you honestly say lots of people have faith if you don't even know what faith is, and I quote:

"I have a hard time believing in things I can't see so faith is a stretch for me."

Don't talk to me about faith if you have none. Lets talk about beliefs for a second. A belief is something that one finds as truth no matter what evidence is brought against it. You will not recognize any facts about religion because they contradict your beliefs outside of them, and I quote:

"As far as talking about what is "factual", I hardly believe that god, God, or Jesus the savior of men has any basis in fact per se."

You do not believe in God, because your belief is that no evidence can be provided to show you otherwise.

"So, I really hope you weren't referring to me in that little statement."
No I wasn't referring to you, but since you want to be condescending towards me, I am referring to you now.

To DoAnyOfYouExist:
"I believe in Jesus and in a sense I do believe he was the son of God...cuz I believe everything and everyone I see is only a fragment of God's consciousness. I just don't like Christianity in general. I think of Jesus as a wise man who may possibly been enlightened like a buddha(something everyone has the potential to be). He had alot of good things to say but I take it all with a grain of salt. Heck I look like Jesus...how can I not call him a friend. The way you write just kind of puts me off Joshiepoo but I have nothing but love for you."

I really appreciate that. I respect your belief and Trina's. I just ask for people to stop being condescending towards me because of my beliefs. We are all intelligent no matter what our belief. Intelligence is only the ability to learn. I do not believe in the word "smart" because I see no hierarchy in the ability to learn. Stupidity is denying oneself their ability to learn. I don't see anyone being stupid in this forum. Subjective Realism is another story, because I see the belief that everything is subjective and that things only exist if one knows them to exist as stupidity. If one doesn't excersise experiences from an objective reality, then no one is learning.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

I just ask for people to stop being condescending towards me because of my beliefs.... I see the belief that everything is subjective and that things only exist if one knows them to exist as stupidity.

Looks like you're getting what you give, JoshiePoo.

[Joshiepoo3000]

Originally Posted by Angela

Looks like you're getting what you give, JoshiePoo.

Angela you are right. I am condescending when I say that. That is reality. But trust that I mean no offense. I believe that any person that believes that everything is subjective, or a subjective realist in other words, are denying their own ability to learn when they come to the conclusions that illusions are real and so forth. This is nonsense. It doesn't help anyone. This is why I debate my point.

If one of your family members were going insane, would you stop trying to help them by avoiding your intervention, because you were afraid to come across as condescending? If you tell them to their face, "You are going insane," do you not see it as condescending? It is, but it is a means to help. When people use sarcasm, it is condescending just to poke fun. You aren't trying to help me that way. I really hope that you wouldn't poke fun at your insane family members with sarcasm like you do to me.
I get the feeling that you can't stand me, Angela, so no I am not calling your family members actually insane in the previous sentence. Don't use it against me, it is merely an example.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

I get the feeling that you can't stand me, Angela

Joshiepoo, I am very sorry to have made you feel that way. Would you please accept my apology for that? My question was not meant sarcastically at all. I meant to gently point out that you were being condescending in the very same post that you complained of being condescended to, and I think you understood that.

I get reactive to the jesus talk because the subtext as I hear it is "There is something terribly wrong with you (because you don't believe as I do) and I am here to fix you." Your vehement opposition to belief in subjective reality strikes me in exactly the same way - "I'm right, and you're wrong!" Your analogy of insane family members is an extreme and inflammatory example of that mindset; I think you realize that, because you took care to specify that I should not take it personally for my own family (which of course I did not.)

The jesus talk, which I find insulting and oppressive, is very prevalent in society. While you might counsel me to simply ignore it and go my own sweet way, instead I have spoken out against it lately in much the same way I would in regards to any other insulting and oppressive movement. You, Joshiepoo, have been the recipient of my reactivity largely because you're one of the few safe places I can speak out -- saying no to the jesus talk in person can reactivate the jesus talkers, and I'm afraid of their violent tendencies. Again, I apologize that you have had to deal with my reactions. I suspect there's a way for me to deal with my feelings about this; it's something I'm thinking about now and I thank you for being my reactivator!

You and I push each other's buttons, so we must be big teachers for one another, yes?

[Trina]

I did not intend to come across as condescending, but if my use of the word "little" made you feel that I was I apologize. Apparently I am not very effective in getting my thoughts across in a way that you can understand without thinking I am talking down to you. That was not my intention.

This is in reference to the last part of your quote. It should be common sense that your final statement agrees with this statement: "The choice only needs to be made in to believe or not to. If you have closed your mind to Jesus, then your choice has been made. I am indifferent to that decision. NOt my choice to make. If people want to deny teachers of peace then that is fine by me. I am not here to hold anyones hand." Your belief is your belief and that is your choice. Don't say it as if I never said it.

Well, it seemed like you were only acknowledging that you can't make choices for other people, not saying that respect comes from that acknowledgment. Right after that statement (and during it) you claimed that I was denying teachers of peace and hated your religion when referring to my beliefs, and to me that doesn't seem like you were respecting my right to believe differently than you do. That's just how it came across to me. If I was wrong then we are even I guess.

Don't talk to me about faith if you have none. Lets talk about beliefs for a second. A belief is something that one finds as truth no matter what evidence is brought against it.

I said that I have trouble with faith, not that I have none. I have an immense amount of faith in my husband. I have faith that he loves me, and I share every aspect of my life and entrust myself to him based on that faith alone, and isn't that one of the biggest leaps of faith that someone can take? I have no proof he will love me tomorrow, that he will want to be with me "til death do you part", or that he even feels the same way about me as I translate his words and actions towards me to mean. So, faith is not foreign to me, I just have a hard time with faith when it comes to religion, the topic we are on in this thread.

Also, I do not define a belief as something you believe no matter what evidence is brought against it, because that implies that beliefs can not be changed. If that were the case I would still believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy even though my parents bought all of my Christmas gifts, bought my Easter basket, and put money under my pillow and took my teeth. My beliefs have changed through out my life as different evidence has been introduced into my reality. When I was a child I believed that my parents knew everything. As I got older and saw them make mistakes, and started to ask them questions they couldn't answer (like for homework help in physics class, for example), that belief changed. I was Christian for 22 years, and very strong in my beliefs for most of that time. My belief in Christianity changed as my exposure to other belief systems increased and my life experiences changed and I found other things that worked for me. I don't think that complete adherence to a belief despite evidence to the contrary is conducive to personal growth, and from what I know of Christianity personal growth is important.

I basically echo Angela's posts here. Her opinions in this thread seem to be in line with mine. There is something we have in common though... subjective reality is NOT something I can fall in line with. LOL. It just doesn't make sense to me. But if someone can and they can be happy with it, then more power to them!

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

This forum is called Personal Development for Smart People for a reason. How can anyone develope an understanding in anything if they don't keep an open mind to learning? People close their ears to what I have to say because they hate my religion. They chose their responses to be condescending because they don't take my input seriously. How are we collectively going to understand something if people chose to remain ignorant of what other people think? I value everyone's ideas, except when they are condescending of mine. At that point I become defensive. We must respect one another if we are going to reach any "development."

I don't learn anything from your posts because your mindset is how I spent three quarters of my life. What personal development meant for me was moving away from that mindset. So, I actually find your posts very challenging, because they bring up such painful associations of when I let that mindset hurt me and people I care about. It surprises me how angry it makes me, in fact, because I'm not a very angry person.

I do have an honest, not-angry question for you, though. Do you bring up your religion so often because it's such an integral part of your personal development, or are you hoping that the Holy Spirit will work through your posts to reach some anonymous lurker with God's word? Or (and please don't take this as an affront, because it's not meant to be) do you find the argumentative reactions to your posts to be worthwhile in some way?

[Joshiepoo3000]

Elainevdw,
Wow you were me so long ago? I think our mindsets must have never been the same, because what I know makes perfect sense to me. See, I am afraid of doubt. I believe because I will not doubt. No matter what evidence comes against what I believe, I will not doubt. I try to express it in a way that it will make sense to others. Obviously I am having a tough time. If they don't believe in the foundations I do, then we can't build a common sense of it. We will both shred each other's foundations apart. I accept that. So I continue to persevere in hopes to make others that have not come to a conclusion about God, make one. It is not whether they agree with me, it is that they make a simple decision. In the bible it says that the end will not come until every ear hears. When they have heard, they should decide. If they have not decided then I hope to help them listen after they have heard. If they listen, then maybe they will believe. Only with wise believers can the atrocities of religous fanatics be thwarted. You know why presidents try to get young people to vote? The same reason I try to wisen young believers.
For instance: Love your enemies, blessed are the poor, once you are saved you will not go to hell. Wonderful things to be taught and believed. Staples of a good religous meal.

I try to reach anyone that will hear, even if they are turned away, because the world will kill itself. Civilization, money, government, power. It's all DOOM. In big rainbow letters for the masses to choke on as they consume it all. Consumers, that's all we are to the world. People actually want this to go on forever? Hey, I take the good with the bad. Not here will there ever be any good without bad. Outside of the "world", I have learned to cope with my own personal struggles. But when those bombs start flying and chaos ensues, I want to know where I go when I go.

So what made you become so much wiser than me? I imagine it would be a multitude of things, because only one wouldn't be enough to change my mind. I indulge you, try to change my mind. I am only interested in the truth. That's why I love Jesus so much, because two months ago I didn't love Him. I wouldn't have been able to last a two paragraph argument in this forum without Him showing me the truth. So as Wayne "The Main Brain" McLain of "Aqua Teen Hunger Force" said, "Ask forth your questions, and I will give the answers of correctitude."

By the way don't get angry, because on the other side of your monitor there is no angry face. There is a calm face, a sincere face, a shocked face, a loving face, a caring face, and a hurt face.

[Joshiepoo3000]

Sorry but I HAD to break my responses up.

Angela and Tina, thank you for compassion. This is not about belittling each other, though sometimes its fun to call someone an idiot if you think its obvious. If you two feel like calling me a retard or whatever it's cool. I have nothing against retards, it is just an expression. I understand if you don't use it, because I don't want to offend anyone that actually knows or is related to a retarded person. Retarded people are wonderful, except when they try to pick fights with you. Then it's just awkward. That's even an awkward word to type.

Trina I just have to say something. The difference between the Easter Bunny and Jesus is a lot. Jesus was a real person, Jesus doesn't hand out chocolate, Jesus tells you where you go when you die, and I think Jesus didn't lay eggs. But neither do bunnys so that should show why the Easter Bunny isn't real right there. Jesus cannot be proven wrong on the subject of hell, because no one has experienced it in a way that they can show anybody else. If it is something that can be proven wrong or doubted then it is not something worth an individuals time to believe in. Only when it cannot be proven wrong to an individual, will the individual honestly believe it. In that way a belief is something that is found to be true no matter what evidence is brought against it. No one will ever be able to bring me evidence to doubt my belief that Jesus determines my place in the afterlife. Hence I believe in Him. Belief is a word used too liberally. I admit to using it liberally myself. But I understand my definition to be truth. I cannot say that I believe there is no planet X, because that can be proven incorrect. I cannot say that I believe heat is hot, because it can be proven correct. Do you see what I am saying?

As far as subjective reality....
I have talked about this till I am blue in the face. This is how I see it.
Subjective is yin, without being good or bad. Objective is yang, without being good or bad. Together the two halves make a whole of reality. Each half of reality has its own characteristics and its own role. Together, in perfect balance, we find "truth." Our thoughts in the subjective reality must coincide with evidence in the objective reality to make what is actual reality.

[Adam]

Josh, I'm just playing devil's advocate here... When Trina gets on, here's what she'll ask...

Can you disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster without disproving Jesus?

[Joshiepoo3000]

Adam, you rock. Please keep the sense of humor. I love it.

Please look at my response to what belief is before I answer that. But I will answer questions concerning that. We will see where it takes us. I only ask that we play by a few rules:

1. Do not answer questions with questions, or else I will do the same and we will get no where. This is a subjective realists' art of argument. It will spiral out of control into nonsense. Trust me. I have played with that fire. We both got burned.
2. We must promise not to hate each other if we either get nowhere or convince someone.

This is going to get frustrating. I can just imagine it. But it is still going to be fun.
If it starts to fill this thread too much we might want to start a new one. But I don't want to start one preemptively, because it might be resolved quickly. I highly doubt it will end too quickly though.

[Trina]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

Trina I just have to say something. The difference between the Easter Bunny and Jesus is a lot. Jesus was a real person, Jesus doesn't hand out chocolate, Jesus tells you where you go when you die, and I think Jesus didn't lay eggs. But neither do bunnys so that should show why the Easter Bunny isn't real right there. Jesus cannot be proven wrong on the subject of hell, because no one has experienced it in a way that they can show anybody else. If it is something that can be proven wrong or doubted then it is not something worth an individuals time to believe in. Only when it cannot be proven wrong to an individual, will the individual honestly believe it. In that way a belief is something that is found to be true no matter what evidence is brought against it. No one will ever be able to bring me evidence to doubt my belief that Jesus determines my place in the afterlife. Hence I believe in Him. Belief is a word used too liberally. I admit to using it liberally myself. But I understand my definition to be truth. I cannot say that I believe there is no planet X, because that can be proven incorrect. I cannot say that I believe heat is hot, because it can be proven correct. Do you see what I am saying?

Oh yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I see your line of logic. I just approach things differently. Because Jesus and the Easter Bunny (or Santa, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, pick your symbol) can not be proven nor disproven, they are ideas to me, not truth. That puts them in the same category for me. Jesus has a bigger following than the Easter Bunny, sure. But they both have books written about them, have loyal followers, and I haven't seen any kind of hard evidence for either one of their existence or non-existence. How do I know that there isn't a magical Easter Bunny somewhere? Or a fat guy in a red coat in the North Pole? Can anyone prove it to me? Same with Jesus. He may have existed, but no one has proven that he did, and no one has disproven it either. I just choose to place my belief in things I have learned and experienced myself, and I make my own logical assumptions based on that.

Of course I value the message of the teachings of Jesus more than the message of the candy riddled Easter Bunny (if there is one... lol), but the bible isn't any more real or true to me just because the message is more useful. Now, with that being said, I don't doubt there was a guy named Jesus sometime in history that did nice things. I am just speaking in the context of Jesus as the savior of men. Do you see what I am saying?

This conversation may be hard, but as long as we are respectful I think we will be okay. Just for future reference, please don't assume that I am being snarky or condescending unless I come right out and call you a name. I am aware that sometimes my sense of humor or use of sarcasm isn't understood, and tone is so hard to express online, but I really don't do it to be a brat, I swear! I just communicate differently that some people, and I always come at these kinds of discussions with a bit of humor and lightheartedness.

Oh, and Adam, the flying spaghetti monster mentioner, is my husband. LOL. We actually have very different beliefs on the subject of religion and a higher power. He is a universalist in every sense of the word. He respects and draws from all religions, and thinks Jesus (along with Buddha, Allah, Hindu deities, the Christian God, the pagan gods and goddesses, etc), or at least the representation of Jesus from the bible, was a very enlightened person with spiritual truths and invaluable messages. I am atheist and don't believe there is a God (not that I choose not to believe in God) and see things in a more universal science and consciousness tied together way. We have these kinds of discussions all the time, and they are always entertaining and enjoyable.

[Joshiepoo3000]

Originally Posted by Trina

Oh yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I see your line of logic. I just approach things differently. Because Jesus and the Easter Bunny (or Santa, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, pick your symbol) can not be proven nor disproven, they are ideas to me, not truth. That puts them in the same category for me. Jesus has a bigger following than the Easter Bunny, sure. But they both have books written about them, have loyal followers, and I haven't seen any kind of hard evidence for either one of their existence or non-existence. How do I know that there isn't a magical Easter Bunny somewhere? Or a fat guy in a red coat in the North Pole? Can anyone prove it to me? Same with Jesus. He may have existed, but no one has proven that he did, and no one has disproven it either. I just choose to place my belief in things I have learned and experienced myself, and I make my own logical assumptions based on that.

My position is that you can't "believe" in what you have learned and experienced, only "know" what you have learned. I personally have learned and experienced Jesus, I can prove it. You may not find the proof adequate, but it is proof. It is a paradox, so now I don't "believe" Jesus "is" I "know" He "is", even though I can't physically show Him to you. I can only tell you how I came to know Him and you would have to take me seriously enough to believe me.
I believe he will chose heaven for me, because I find it true no matter what, but I don't "know" He will. I don't "know" He will, because He hasn't yet. I have more to say, but I forgot how to get multiple quotes in one post.

[Joshiepoo3000]

Originally Posted by Trina

Oh yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I see your line of logic. I just approach things differently. Because Jesus and the Easter Bunny (or Santa, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, pick your symbol) can not be proven nor disproven, they are ideas to me, not truth. That puts them in the same category for me. Jesus has a bigger following than the Easter Bunny, sure. But they both have books written about them, have loyal followers, and I haven't seen any kind of hard evidence for either one of their existence or non-existence. How do I know that there isn't a magical Easter Bunny somewhere? Or a fat guy in a red coat in the North Pole? Can anyone prove it to me? Same with Jesus. He may have existed, but no one has proven that he did, and no one has disproven it either. I just choose to place my belief in things I have learned and experienced myself, and I make my own logical assumptions based on that.

I figured it out, but I don't know why my quote was in there. Whatever. Anyways. Where was I? Belief...Jesus...I know Him to "be." I quote "knows" and "is." For a reason. This may put you for a loop, but I don't believe God exists. I know He doesn't exist. He doesn't fit my model for "to exist." This is why He cannot be proven to exist, unless He proves Himself to exist by bringing Himself into reality. This is my theory. It is a theory, because I will never be able to prove it. Hence my problem with talking about it to people.

Reality= Truth. It is the whole. It branchs out into two halves of the whole. ObjectiveRreality and Subjective Reality. They are both different parts of a whole reality with different characteristics and different roles. They are like the two halves of our body. Neither hand nor foot can go inside the other, but they are part of the same body. To find truth we must coincide our subjective truth with the evidence, or objective truth. To exist one must have a place in objective reality. Objective reality is time and space not existence. Existence the noun itself is fictitious. There is only "to exist." The verb. Since God only has a place in time, he does not exist. I actually see God as objective reality itself. "Grandfather time?" The desk is not objective reality. The desk has a place in objective reality, thus the desk exists. Subjective Reality is our mind. It has a place in time and not space. It too does not exist, for that reason. When God is in our thoughts, He has a place in subjective reality's time. He still does not exist. Yet He has a place in the part of reality that is time. Of course He has a place in it, He IS it.

You might ask about truth. If you have to have evidence coincide with subjective truth to find truth, and there is no objective evidence for Jesus, then how do you find His truth? This is the paradox. You can only, simply believe. Finding Jesus is like finding "nothing" in "existence." You don't find Him. You ask Him to find You. That is the only way. He is nowhere and He is everywhere. You have to believe, because He must be truth without proof. Unprovable. I tried to find Him, and He found me. He didn't appear to me or speak to me. He gives me a clarity about things I have only dreamed about. Things I dreamed about knowing my whole life made sense to me in a matter of hours, only a few months ago. The hardest part is puting my understanding into words and I give Jesus credit for even being able to put it into words. I ask for His guidance all the time. That's why I enjoy everyone's questions so much, because I can't get confused, I only confuse everyone else.

I have to get to work Trina, but I will finish later. Talk to you later. Have a good day/night. I guess I didn't figure multiquoting out. Whatever. Later.

[Angela]

Joshiepoo, put a / before the second QUOTE -- [/QUOTE].
Angela.

[Joshiepoo3000]

Thank you Angela. I hope I do it right this time. Otherwise I am a hopeless idiot.

Originally Posted by Trina

Of course I value the message of the teachings of Jesus more than the message of the candy riddled Easter Bunny (if there is one... lol), but the bible isn't any more real or true to me just because the message is more useful. Now, with that being said, I don't doubt there was a guy named Jesus sometime in history that did nice things. I am just speaking in the context of Jesus as the savior of men. Do you see what I am saying?

Yes I see what you are saying, Trina. Jehova's Witness feels that way, Islam feels that way, Judaism feels that way. You don't have to believe if you don't want to. In fact, you won't. That is the whole point. I am just trying to help the anonymous viewer of these conversations make a decision, whether they believe me or not. What you decide is for you to decide. You are your own judge.
It's frustrating because we are left with this huge responsibility to make this choice that matters so much because it affects ourselves, yet we are indecisive without evidence. How ironic. We say, "Jesus if you are real, then just show yourself. Why should I believe in you otherwise? How am I to decide the fate of my eternity if you don't help me out here. Well, since you won't help me with some hard evidence, then fine, you must not exist." I understand. Why believe in the God that will send you to hell because you don't know? I understand the resentment. I understand that you discard Him as an insignificant fairytail. You don't take Him seriously. He isn't real to you. If He isn't real to you, how can He blame you? I understand. I felt the same way.
I just didn't know what would happen when I died. I look at all the religions of the world. I look at the punishments in afterlife. I was pessimistic: expect the worst, hope for the best. That works until you are at the end of your rope. I reached the end of mine in my assurance that God didn't exist to punish me for my sins. I thought, "All the other religions have meaningless punishments. Islam, Judaism, and CHristianity have the worst punishment of all. Torture." I don't care about death if it is quick and painless. It is how I die and where I go when I die that matters to me. I can't understand how people aren't afraid of torture. Then I looked at the three religions and decided that the one with Jesus has the most consequence. If I die and Jesus doesn't exist, then I lose nothing. If I die and Jesus does exist, then I lose everything.

Originally Posted by Trina

This conversation may be hard, but as long as we are respectful I think we will be okay. Just for future reference, please don't assume that I am being snarky or condescending unless I come right out and call you a name. I am aware that sometimes my sense of humor or use of sarcasm isn't understood, and tone is so hard to express online, but I really don't do it to be a brat, I swear! I just communicate differently that some people, and I always come at these kinds of discussions with a bit of humor and lightheartedness.

I like humor. I have always been sarcastic and I find sheer stupidity hilarious. Tom Green is my favorite of all time. I love that new movie Idiocracy, classic. Aqua Teen Hunger Force: I love Wayne "The Main Brain" McLane and Carl. I like SpongeBob. Dane Cook is awesome. Monkey jokes that have to do with feces or stupidity is hilarious. People being total idiots makes me laugh. I do stupid crap and laugh at myself all the time. My wife hates it.

Originally Posted by Trina

Oh, and Adam, the flying spaghetti monster mentioner, is my husband. LOL. We actually have very different beliefs on the subject of religion and a higher power. He is a universalist in every sense of the word. He respects and draws from all religions, and thinks Jesus (along with Buddha, Allah, Hindu deities, the Christian God, the pagan gods and goddesses, etc), or at least the representation of Jesus from the bible, was a very enlightened person with spiritual truths and invaluable messages. I am atheist and don't believe there is a God (not that I choose not to believe in God) and see things in a more universal science and consciousness tied together way. We have these kinds of discussions all the time, and they are always entertaining and enjoyable.

I see all the religions of the world as a different interpretation of God. They are all based on similar ideas, beliefs, and structures. The difference about me is that the God I know wants people to know Him as He truly is. When a religion interprets Him in a way that isn't true to who He is Himself, then the God that they worship becomes a different god. I see the problem people have with this is their rhetorical question, "Why doesn't He show them His true form if He cares so much?" God is like a woman to us men in this way. He wants us to read His mind. He wants us to have a genuine choice for Him without His help. His help is the Bible and Jesus being here back in the day in my religion. He wants that to be enough. A woman drops us men a couple of tiny hints about something and expects us to pick up on it. By the time she says it loud enough that we understand, the woman is already mad. This is especially true after a relationship has formed and occured over time. Then the woman expects a man to know her like she knows herself, just how she knows the man like he knows himself. Sometimes she know him better than himself. Men can come close to achieving this, but it never actually happens. Men are viewed as selfish because of this. In truth we are, but it is not because we asked to be this way. Men and women are flawed in this way.

Food for thought: God is an enigma.
Enigma- 2. a person of puzzling or contradictory character.
If He IS objective reality, then He does not exist. If He IS space and time, then when He is in your thoughts He does not exist. God is not a noun. He is not a person, because He is the space and time that everyone occupies. In this way He is everyone and He is no one. He is not a place, because He is everywhere and He is nowhere. He is not the place, but He is the space and time for us to be placed in. He is not a thing, because He is the space and time for everything to be in. In this way He is everything and He is nothing. For this reason, I understand why you believe He doesn't exist. You are right. He doesn't actually exist.

[elainevdw]

I won't try to change your mind, because 1) it won't work, and 2) shame on me for trying when you take so much comfort from your beliefs. Faith got me through some really tough times, and if you need it right now, then keep with it. I, however, reached my limit and had to move on.

However, I'll still respond to your post!

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

Elainevdw,
Wow you were me so long ago? I think our mindsets must have never been the same, because what I know makes perfect sense to me. See, I am afraid of doubt. I believe because I will not doubt.

I beg to differ. Because, duh, of course it all made perfect sense to me (until the end, at least). I was afraid of doubt, too. In fact, I was afraid of a lot of things. I decided I didn't want to be afraid anymore. Leaving the paradigm did cause some of its own fear and anxiety, but I'm much happier without it.

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

Love your enemies, blessed are the poor, once you are saved you will not go to hell. Wonderful things to be taught and believed. Staples of a good religous meal.

I'm aware of the staples of religion; I'm very knowledgeable about what I nearly dedicated my life to. It breaks down to two things: Law and Gospel. The first thing you mention is love, but what precedes love is damnation. Christianity is built on the belief that humans are inherently flawed, inherently evil, inherently in need of salvation, incapable of doing good on their own.

In your own words:

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

It's all DOOM.

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

So what made you become so much wiser than me? I imagine it would be a multitude of things, because only one wouldn't be enough to change my mind. I indulge you, try to change my mind. I am only interested in the truth. That's why I love Jesus so much, because two months ago I didn't love Him. I wouldn't have been able to last a two paragraph argument in this forum without Him showing me the truth. So as Wayne "The Main Brain" McLain of "Aqua Teen Hunger Force" said, "Ask forth your questions, and I will give the answers of correctitude."

I'm not wiser than you; I'm in a different place in my life, which isn't even a place I'd presume to tell you to strive for.

Hearing that you're only two months into Christianity, however, explains the tones of your posts. If I can offer some advice: Dropping the J-bomb and Christian theology in every thread will turn people away from what you're trying to communicate. The apostle Paul said that he aimed to be "everything to everyone, so that I may be sure of winning some." To me, that means being likeable, because then people will take you seriously.

To get your message across, you have to do what they tell writers to do: Show, don't tell. Live your beliefs. That will speak more loudly than spelling them out every chance you get. And some day, someone will ask you, "Hey, why are you so X, Y, Z?" That's the opportunity to tell them that you are that way because of Jesus. And since they've already seen that in action, they'll probably listen.

It's easy to get tied into all the little theological trivialities of Christianity, but remember, when it all comes down to it, as long as someone believes in Jesus, they're going to heaven, right? So why create stumbling blocks by talking about who God's chosen people are, do clones have souls, are infant baptisms legitimate, will my dog go to heaven, will Gay Uncle Roger go to hell, etc.?

Those kinds of discussions are best kept within a circle of people who share your faith, because the discussion is more likely to further everyone's understanding of their beliefs rather than just piss people off.

PS, Holy cow, that meat wad thing in AQHF? Yeech!! Creeps me out!

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

By the way don't get angry, because on the other side of your monitor there is no angry face. There is a calm face, a sincere face, a shocked face, a loving face, a caring face, and a hurt face.

I'm not angry with you, I'm just angry about Christianity. It's a phase I'm going through. The first phase was fear. The second phase was sadness (I still cry when I step into a church, sometimes). The third phase is apparently anger. I wonder how much longer it will take until I'm peaceful about the entire thing.

[pushbutton]

I was brought up as a catholic, and for a few years in my teens I was deeply religious and actually read the bible every day and believed it literally.

Once I got into my late teens I gradually lost interest in religion and really didn't give it a lot of thought, but it wasn't until I saw a video very recently that I realised how foolish I had been and how foolish millions of others have been to believe in all that the Christian church teaches and take it so literally.

Dictionary.com defines "Ascend" as follows:

–verb (used without object) 1. to move, climb, or go upward; mount; rise: The airplane ascended into the clouds. 2. to slant upward. 3. to rise to a higher point, rank, or degree; proceed from an inferior to a superior degree or level: to ascend to the presidency. 4. to go toward the source or beginning; go back in time. 5. Music. to rise in pitch; pass from any tone to a higher one.
–verb (used with object) 6. to go or move upward upon or along; climb; mount: to ascend a lookout tower; to ascend stairs. 7. to gain or succeed to; acquire: to ascend the throne.

I now know (yes know, not believe) that all of Christian religion, and many other religions are very obviously based on the worship of the sun, which ascends into heaven (appears to reach its highest point in the sky) around Easter (based on when the sun rises from the EAST).

The Christian idea of trying to attain Ascention is simply based on the concept of wanting to be like Jesus who ascended into heaven etc etc etc.

But Jesus, like many other saviours and god-figures before him is just a personification of the sun. (often referred to since ancient times as the sun of god). God, in turn, is probably derived from the Anglo Saxon word "God", which meant "Good".

The son of God is, therefore, "the Good sun". (Where did the word “GOD” originate?)

According to wikipedia, another possible origin of the word "God" is the German word Gott, which means Goat. A Goat being the symbol since ancient times for the 10th sign of the zodiac, Capricorn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_%28word%29

Anyone who still takes Christianity literally really owes it to themselves to watch these eye-opening videos with an open mind, and then decide what they really want to believe!

YouTube - The Greatest Story Ever Told - Part 1 of 3
YouTube - The Greatest Story Ever Told - Part 2 of 3
YouTube - The Greatest Story Ever Told - Part 3 of 3
and
YouTube - REVEALED: The Secret of Christianity

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

T

I just didn't know what would happen when I died. I look at all the religions of the world. I look at the punishments in afterlife. I was pessimistic: expect the worst, hope for the best. That works until you are at the end of your rope. I reached the end of mine in my assurance that God didn't exist to punish me for my sins. I thought, "All the other religions have meaningless punishments. Islam, Judaism, and CHristianity have the worst punishment of all. Torture." I don't care about death if it is quick and painless. It is how I die and where I go when I die that matters to me. I can't understand how people aren't afraid of torture. Then I looked at the three religions and decided that the one with Jesus has the most consequence. If I die and Jesus doesn't exist, then I lose nothing. If I die and Jesus does exist, then I lose everything.

Re-wording Pascals Wager for the 10 billionth time since it started does not make it true.


Pushbutton I agree.
I was into evemerism for a long time but now after following D.M. Murdocks research I'm considering her stance that Jesus actually never existed.
I haven't been able to debunk any of her claims unless one of the prominent Egyptologists was a huge liar (Massey). She's been in Egypt reading the myths herself and serving as trenchmaster on digs.

Truth Be Known Home

[vartann]

ascension is switching from cheap cigarette to nice cigarillo to plump cigar,
then dropping smoking altogether