Christianity is barking mad!

[Radical]

Read this hilarious quote from The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (one of my idols), and laugh at the absurdity of Christianity.

I have described atonement, the central doctrine of Christianity, as vicious, sado-masochistic and repellent. We should also dismiss it as barking mad, but for its ubiquitous familiarity which has dulled our objectivity. If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them, without having himself tortured and executed in payment - thereby, incidentally, condemning remote future generations of Jews to pogroms and persecution as ‘Christ-Killers’: did that hereditary sin pass down in the semen too?

Paul, as the Jewish scholar Geza Vermes makes clear, was steeped in the old Jewish theological principle that without blood there is no atonement. Indeed, in his epistle to the Hebrews (9:22) he said as much. Progressive ethicists today find it hard to defend any kind of retributive theory of punishment, let alone the scapegoat theory - executing an innocent to pay for the sins of the guilty. In any case (one can’t help wondering), who was God trying to impress? Presumably himself - judge and jury as well as execution victim. To cap it all, Adam, the supposed perpetrator of the original sin, never existed in the first place: an awkward fact - excusably unknown to Paul but presumably known to an omniscient God (and Jesus, if you believe he was God?) - which fundamentally undermines the premise of the whole tortuously nasty theory. Oh, but of course, the story of Adam and Eve was only ever symbolic, wasn’t it? Symbolic? So, in order to impress himself, Jesus had himself tortured and executed, in vicarious punishment for a symbolic sin committed by a non-existent individual? As I said, barking mad, as well as viciously unpleasant.

[tropicality]

I think this ties in with that

The Not so Nice Jesus


Why Jesus?
Jesus has been held in high regard by Christians and non-Christians
alike. Regardless of whether he existed in history, or whether he
was divine, many have asserted that the New Testament Christ
character was the highest example of moral living. Many believe that
his teachings, if truly understood and followed, would make this a
better world.

Is this true? Does Jesus merit the widespread adoration he has
received? Let's look at what he said and did.

Was Jesus Peaceable And Compassionate?
The birth of Jesus was heralded with "Peace on Earth," yet Jesus
said, "Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send
peace but a sword." (Matthew 10:34) "He that hath no sword, let him
sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36) "But those mine
enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring
hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27. In a parable, but
spoken of favorably.)

The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition was based on the
words of Jesus: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a
branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the
fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)

Jesus looked at his critics "with anger" (Mark 3:5), and attacked
merchants with a whip (John 2:15). He showed his respect for life by
drowning innocent animals (Matthew 8:32). He refused to heal a sick
child until he was pressured by the mother (Matthew 15:22-28).

The most revealing aspect of his character was his promotion of
eternal torment. "The Son of man [Jesus himself] shall send forth
his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that
offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a
furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42) "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is
better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to
go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." (Mark
9:43)

Is this nice? Is it exemplary to make your point with threats of
violence? Is hell a kind, peaceful idea?

Did Jesus Promote "Family Values"?
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life
also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

"I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her
mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
(Matthew 10:35-36)

When one of his disciples requested time off for his father's
funeral, Jesus rebuked him: "Let the dead bury their dead." (Matthew
8:22)

Jesus never used the word "family." He never married or fathered
children. To his own mother, he said, "Woman, what have I to do with
thee?" (John 2:4)

What Were His Views On Equality And Social Justice?
Jesus encouraged the beating of slaves: "And that servant [slave],
which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did
according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke
12:47) He never denounced servitude, incorporating the master-slave
relationship into many of his parables.

He did nothing to alleviate poverty. Rather than sell some expensive
ointment to help the poor, Jesus wasted it on himself, saying, "Ye
have the poor with you always." (Mark 14:3-7)

No women were chosen as disciples or invited to the Last Supper.

What Moral Advice Did Jesus Give?
"There be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom
of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive
it." (Matthew 19:12) Some believers, including church father Origen,
took this verse literally and castrated themselves. Even
metaphorically, this advice is in poor taste.

If you do something wrong with your eye or hand, cut/pluck it off
(Matthew 5:29-30, in a sexual context).
Marrying a divorced woman is adultery. (Matthew 5:32)
Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34)
Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20)
Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25)
Sell everything and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33)
Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27)
Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28)
Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11)
Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16)
Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich
investors. (Luke 19:23-26)
If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30)
If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41)
If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question.
(Matthew 5:42)
Is this wise? Is this what you would teach your children?

Was Jesus Reliable?
Jesus told his disciples that they would not die before his second
coming: "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of
death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew
16:28). "Behold, I come quickly." (Revelation 3:11) It's been 2,000
years, and believers are still waiting for his "quick" return.

He mistakenly claimed that the mustard seed is "the least of all
seeds" (Matt. 13:32), and that salt could "lose its savour" (Matthew
5:13).

Jesus said that whoever calls somebody a "fool" shall be in danger
of hell fire (Matthew 5:22), yet he called people "fools" himself
(Matthew 23:17).

Regarding his own truthfulness, Jesus gave two conflicting
opinions: "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true"
(John 5:31), and "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is
true" (John 8:14).

Was Jesus A Good Example?
He irrationally cursed a fig tree for being fruitless out of season
(Matthew 21:18-19, and Mark 11:13-14). He broke the law by stealing
corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23), and he encouraged his disciples to
take a horse without asking permission (Matthew 21).

The "humble" Jesus said that he was "greater than the temple" (Matt
12:6), "greater than Jonah" (Matthew 12:41), and "greater than
Solomon" (Matthew 12:42). He appeared to suffer from a
dictator's "paranoia" when he said, "He that is not with me is
against me" (Matthew 12:30).

Why Jesus?
Although other verses can be cited that portray Jesus in a different
light, they do not erase the disturbing side of his character. The
conflicting passages, however, prove that the New Testament is
contradictory.

The "Golden Rule" had been said many times by earlier religious
leaders. (Confucius: "Do not unto others that you would not have
them do unto you.") "Turn the other cheek" encourages victims to
invite further violence. "Love thy neighbor" applied only to fellow
believers. (Neither the Jews nor Jesus showed much love to foreign
religions). A few of the Beatitudes ("Blessed are the peacemakers")
are acceptable, but they are all conditions of future reward, not
based on respect for human life or values.

On the whole, Jesus said little that was worthwhile. He introduced
nothing new to ethics (except hell). He instituted no social
programs. Being "omniscient," he could have shared some useful
science or medicine, but he appeared ignorant of such things (as if
his character were merely the invention of writers stuck in the
first century).

Many scholars are doubtful of the historical existence of Jesus.
Albert Schweitzer said, "The historical Jesus will be to our time a
stranger and an enigma." No first-century writer confirms the Jesus
story. The New Testament is internally contradictory and contains
historical errors. The story is filled with miracles and other
outrageous claims. Consisting mostly of material borrowed from pagan
religions, the Jesus story appears to be cut from the same fabric as
all other myths and fables.

Why is Jesus so special? It would be more reasonable and productive
to emulate real, flesh-and-blood human beings who have contributed
to humanity--mothers who have given birth, scientists who have
alleviated suffering, social reformers who have fought injustice--
than to worship a character of such dubious qualities as Jesus.




Published by Freedom from Religion Inc.

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/jesus.html

[Radical]

Nice quote tropicality. It always makes me laugh when people derive their morals from the Bible. Here's John Hartung's take on the Bible.

The Bible is a blueprint of in-group morality, complete with instructions for genocide, enslavement of out-groups, and world domination. But the Bible is not evil by virtue of its objectives or even its glorification of murder, cruelty, and rape. Many ancient works do that - The Iliad, the Icelandic Sagas, the tales of the ancient Syrians and the inscriptions of the ancient Mayans, for example. But no one is selling the Iliad as a foundation for morality. Therein lies the problem. The Bible is sold, and brought, as a guide to how people should live their lives. And it is, by far, the world's all-time best seller.

[tropicality]

I would like to share thisi quote from JMBR with you:

You have within you the spark of creativity and reason -- that which is called the soul. It is both the seat of your power, and the energy of your existence. If you choose to grow your power -- by study, meditation and relentless expansion of your consciousness-- then you will evolve, and your evolution will bring you to ever-greater levels of understanding, which may be appreciated as higher levels of life. If you choose not to evolve, if you give-up evolution for the comfort of false absolutes, if you substitute dogma for reason, then you have made the choice to die.

The fool sees only with her eyes. Question everything and reject comforting illusions, for they lead you to weakness. The strong will looks within and shapes reality to its perception rather than being shaped by the illusions and lies of others. Oppose mediocrity and stand for the victory of the individual above the herd -- your victory!

I could go into great deal and provide references on how backwards christianity and the bible are. Due to my hunger for the truth, I have probably studied more about the bible than most christians (However the ones who blindly believe everything as truth are already lost, like the saints who castrated themselves due to a particular line in the bible that explains god will bless them for doing so)

I will suggest however that anyone who wants to expand their knowledge of the truth, start so at Exposing Christianity . Do not turn a blind eye like is promoted in christianity, but instead, examine BOTH SIDES. You will likely be shocked by what you are seeing, but the truth often IS very shocking, is it not? (think 9/11)

Here is one article that I think explains alot about why christianity exists:

Energy and how it has been Manipulated
to the Detriment of Humanity


There is a secret "priesthood" that goes back thousands of years. This "priesthood" controlled and always had a much higher level of knowledge way beyond anything the majority knew. They allowed the populace to work as in building the cathedrals and when new societies were established, this society of mages would hijack the positions of religious and political power and ensure that any advanced knowledge in circulation was removed from the public domain and into their secret schools and organizations. The ruling hierarchy of the Vatican are nothing more than organized crimminals who have caused humanity untold destruction, misery, suffering and grief. They are working with and controlled by others working for the same objectives. The ones who control all of the money.

At the upper levels, they know the true power of the sun, magnetics, the mind, the effects of planets on human behavior, how to manipulate time, energy, they have used their secret organizations to create institutions in the public arena such as religions and political parties to remove this advanced knowledge and keep it out of circulation. The Inquisition was a prime example, for even to speak of anything occult or esoteric was to sign one's own death warrant.

In order to maximize power for their agenda, xian churches were built upon Ley Lines. Ley Lines are areas within the earth that have ioncreased geo-magnetic energy. The human body is composed of and runs on bio-electricity. Our thoughts are made up of electrical impulses. Through meditation and working with our own energy centers, we can hone our thoughts to have a stronger electrical output and to affect our environment. When one who is knowledgable uses earth energy in addition to this directed thought energy, this greatly amplifies the power behind the thoughts and direction of the energy through the will. Pagan temples were destroyed and xian churches were erected in their place. Special rituals were also conducted at these energy crossings within the earth grid. Human/animal sacrifices and such produced extreme fear in the victim. This directed fear energy- what they use to control was pumped into these vortexes of earth energy. What happens is this energy, magnified thousands of times creates a vibrational state within the earth field in which we all live. From what I understand, it encircles the earth like a spider web. This is the reason why xianity has such a powerful hold on many. Fear is the four letter word that controls the world and it is very effective.

In addition, the lying preaching, chock full of emotion and the doctrines that were repeated endlessly inside of these structures had all the power they needed to do their job. Along with using the energy of the ignorant congregation, a constant and powerful supply of energy was and has been available to be directed and manipulated by enemy adepts for the damnation of the people. Ancient works of art through the Renessiance are proof of the control the xian church had upon the people in every aspect of their lives. There are very few paintings, sculptures and other works of art that do not depict the nazarene or the virgin and company. This also goes for music during the time period. To create any number of non-xian works was to subject one's self to be condemned as a heretic. The prayer energy alone that has gone into this foul institution is beyond the imagination. One person alone who fixates upon a thought or idea generates thought energy; think what millions can do.

Unfortunately, given the greed, this has not been enough for the nefarious aliens and their human slaves who run this ring of destruction. There had to be war. The human energy output is most powerful in times of great fear, when facing death or when dying. The more violent, the better. Anyone who is familiar with the old testament of the judeo/xian bible should be well aware of the endless wars promoted by the so called "jehova."

Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Is your thought/psychic energy being used by you.. or are you blindly giving it away to something/someone else?

[cylon]

One thing that used to really disturb me was when Christians said that without the Bible, there was no basis for morality, like you wouldn't know what to do, if what you were doing was right or wrong. They say the only reason we have morals today, is because of the cultural conditioning that has resulted from Christianity, without it, we would all be mindless barbarians.

Yet, you look at the religions and philosophies of the world, that just happen to be older than the New Testament at least, and you see the same thing, treat others with respect/dignity, do good to others because it's doing good to you... so that seems to invalidate their point. I think their mindset is, "yeah, but if you invalidate Christianity, then we'll all be killing or raping each other! So there's some value there!"

Whatever. I'm more concernced with an image of a Christian interacting with their everyday life, and being at a moral crossroads every fifteen minutes, having absolutely no idea how to deal with another person until they flip open their book and find a corresponding verse. Seems like a life of utter confusion.

[Radical]

Here's another quote I like, from George Carlin.

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man - living in the sky - who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time... But He loves you!

[cylon]

That's great. He loves me, so much, that he will do almost anything to show me a way out of the eternal pit of fire.....that he created.

Having been raised by a Christian family, and being rejected by said Christian family, for not being Christian, getting to the bottom of this topic was paramount, for many years. I spent countless hours debating, searching, questioning... trying to find a way to hold the thoughts of God as a loving being and God as someone who allowed Hell to exist, in my mind at the same time. I have heard every single analogy, excuse, rationalization, that would try to convince me that HE is all loving, yet allows his beloved to burn for eternity, and that there is no conflict at all there. The only conflict would be the seeds of doubt the Devil has implanted in my mind.

My mind exploded. I think I came to the conclusion that I couldn't understand the Christian point of view, because you can't understand madness. Trying to understand madness, is a form of madness.

Whatever the secrets of the Universe may be, I have finally crossed that threshold. I know without a doubt that a loving person, if given the chance, would do whatever is possible to save a loved one from eternal pain, no strings attached. It feels great to write this... I've come a long way.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by cylon

That's great. He loves me, so much, that he will do almost anything to show me a way out of the eternal pit of fire.....that he created.

Having been raised by a Christian family, and being rejected by said Christian family, for not being Christian, getting to the bottom of this topic was paramount, for many years. I spent countless hours debating, searching, questioning... trying to find a way to hold the thoughts of God as a loving being and God as someone who allowed Hell to exist, in my mind at the same time. I have heard every single analogy, excuse, rationalization, that would try to convince me that HE is all loving, yet allows his beloved to burn for eternity, and that there is no conflict at all there. The only conflict would be the seeds of doubt the Devil has implanted in my mind.

My mind exploded. I think I came to the conclusion that I couldn't understand the Christian point of view, because you can't understand madness. Trying to understand madness, is a form of madness.

Whatever the secrets of the Universe may be, I have finally crossed that threshold. I know without a doubt that a loving person, if given the chance, would do whatever is possible to save a loved one from eternal pain, no strings attached. It feels great to write this... I've come a long way.

Congratulations cylon. You have escaped the shackles of your indoctrination.

[cylon]

Thanks, it's a good feeling to know you're on the right track, and are a good person, because you just ARE. Many Christians are genuine, loving people, who happen to use it as the reason for their actions.... but I suspect that deep down they are good people anyway, and that just happens to be the way they understand reality.

Of course, these people also happen to be what you would call a "liberal christian", meaning when you ask them about Hell and original sin and that sort of thing, they start to get uncomfortable and want to change the subject, because it doesn't ring true for them. These are the Christians that have no problem with other religions, and probably feel some guilt for helping to spread a harmful belief system, yet still have some fear of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Then there are the Christians who are judgemental pricks, who use religion as a means of making themselves look better than everyone else, they want to feel like they are special and you are a loser, unless you agree with them, and they can teach you to be special, like them. They are no different than any other harmful, destructive ideology, religious, or secular/political, in my mind it's all the same thing.

[maverickstruth]

If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them, without having himself tortured and executed in payment - thereby, incidentally, condemning remote future generations of Jews to pogroms and persecution as ‘Christ-Killers’: did that hereditary sin pass down in the semen too?

Just thought I'd add that, while certainly not mainstream, there are some forms of Christianity which espouse a view broadly known as "Christian Universalism." These Christians teach that God actually forgave the sins of all human beings (whether they believe in Jesus or not) and that no one will go to Hell, because of what God has done.

Just thought I'd throw it out there, since I like throwing wrenches into generalizations. Hehe.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

Just thought I'd add that, while certainly not mainstream, there are some forms of Christianity which espouse a view broadly known as "Christian Universalism." These Christians teach that God actually forgave the sins of all human beings (whether they believe in Jesus or not) and that no one will go to Hell, because of what God has done.

Just thought I'd throw it out there, since I like throwing wrenches into generalizations. Hehe.

Universalism is no doubt another creation by Christian apologists in an attempt to justify their evidenty evil and cruel God. One wonders how they came to this arbitrary conclusion? What rationale did they use? - other than how can we distort this already twisted and senseless religion even more, in order to rationalize our contradicting morals?

[cylon]

While trying to get to the bottom of this stuff, I came across Gnostic Christianity. From what I've read, it's possible that early Christianity viewed Christ as a metaphor, or perhaps as a mythology that you could perhaps relate to, without actually identifying with the literal belief that Christ was real.

Because when you start to believe that Christ was real, you owe it to yourself to learn about the pagan beliefs/stories that predate Christianity, which JUST HAPPEN TO BE VERY SIMILAR to Christianity, and give you a bigger picture of this belief that has dominated for two thousand years. All the stories of Christ, that many think are exclusive to Christianity, inconveniently happen to be the stories of other Gods from that era and before.

I suppose the easiest solution to this conflict would be, Satan went back in time and created fairy tales that would end up being almost identical to the stories in the New Testament, in order to throw us off the path, and perhaps screw us out of eternal life. That Satan is a real clever sort.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Radical

Universalism is no doubt another creation by Christian apologists in an attempt to justify their evidenty evil and cruel God. One wonders how they came to this arbitrary conclusion? What rationale did they use? - other than how can we distort this already twisted and senseless religion even more, in order to rationalize our contradicting morals?

This is something that my sister believed. I love my sister and she is absolutely a loving, generous person. This is how she tried/tries to hold the belief of Christianity being real, and not having those weird, icky feelings of having to think about the "other people" who would spend eternity in hell.

In my opinion this is simply the belief of people who have gotten something out of the GOOD parts of Christianity, but can't come to terms with all the terrifying stuff in the Bible. Not being a Christian is out of the question, so they have to reframe it and redefine it into something they are more comfortable with. Still, it's a better form of Xtianity than the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of the world could offer.

[maverickstruth]

Some links for those who are interested...

On Christian Universalism:
Tentmaker
Gospel for Today Ministries
Carlton Pearson's Gospel of Inclusion

On Gnosticism:
Living Gnosticism
10 Things Religious Pundits Need to Know About Gnosticism
Ecclesia Gnostica in Nova Albion


There are tonnes more; these are just a smattering. Enjoy!

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Radical

Read this hilarious quote from The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (one of my idols), and laugh at the absurdity of Christianity.

Radical, as you seem to be a person who is against all religions, I'm sure you have also your opinion about Islam and the Quran.

Do you have the guts to start an anti-Muslim thread and make fun of the Quran?...

[Megan]

I've suffered many things from several stripes of Fundamentalism over the years--pretty much lost my mind over it.

I was a person who took my faith very seriously, and read the Bible a lot. When I started questioning things I'd been taught about God, the tribal instinct kicked in, and the religious people gave it to me with both barrels.

It's very difficult when your tribe thinks you're Satanic.

Interestingly, at least to me, the reason I started questioning things I had been taught was that the God I was experiencing from my devotional study of the Bible and prayer did not seem to comport with the God of the Bible as printed, and taught in a literal fashion. Hmmm. Very confusing.

I went through a long period where I vehemently rejected Christianity altogether and sort of did the New Age thing.

That's when I started noticing that spiritual insight is just spiritual insight--a lot of the New Age insight was Christian insight translated to a different language. Likewise, Buddhist and Hindu insight. There seemed to be an underground river we all draw from.

I still couldn't relate to Fundamentalist/literalist Christianity, could barely tolerate it, but I had a growing sense that something deeper was going on.

At length, I have arrived at a universalist perspective through a completely organic process of working and reworking all this material over several decades, not just intellectually, but at the blood and grit level.

This is not a way of holding on to Christianity as "real," for truly I don't identify with organized Christianity at all. But I recognize my soul process in all the anguish I went through over religion, and I found some nuggets of gold there.

At present, I see religion as part of our evolutionary process, and, like Teilhard de Chardin, I see it as Ariadne's Thread to guide us through the maze, confusing as religion itself is.

Nobody ever suggested that evolution isn't messy!

So, yeah, this blood-thirsty God who requires retribution and tortures beyond all reason, how repugnant!

But, still...somehow...there is a rio abajo rio, a river beneath the river, and it runs pure.

[Megan]

Ariadne's Thread and the Labyrinth in Classical Mythology



Ariadne was the daughter of King Minos of Crete. Minos had Daedalus build a Labyrinth, a house of winding passages, to house the bull-man, the Minotaur, the beast that his wife Pasiphae bore after having intercourse with a bull.

Minos required tribute from Athens in the form of young men and women to be sacrificed to the Minotaur.

Theseus, an Athenian, volunteered to accompany one of these groups of victims to deliver his country from the tribute to Minos. Ariadne fell in love with Theseus and gave him a thread which he let unwind through the Labyrinth so that he was able to kill the Minotaur and find his way back out again.

Ovid says that Daedalus built a house in which he confused the usual passages and deceived the eye with a conflicting maze of various wandering paths (Metamorphoses 8.161):

"so Daedalus made the innumerable paths of deception, and he was barely able to return to the entrance: so deceptive was the house."

Ariadne's Thread

The dreaded Minotaur had the head of a bull and the body of a man, and was named, evocatively, Asterion.

Actually walking a labyrinth for a time, as a spiritual practice, helped me to look back at my traumatic experiences in Christianity as a series of initiations, a "house of winding passages." This helped me to see myself less as a victim of Christianity, and to reclaim the Minotaur, monster Christianity, as Asterion, a star.

I believe that mythos and poetry are evolutionary advances in humankind.

[Joshiepoo3000]

I say to you, Satan is schizophrenic. God created us to draw him out into the open. Lucifer will be forgiven and brought to Heaven. Satan is the spirit of antichrist, and a subjective realist. Subjective realists are confused. They think that if they ignore a car they won't die, because they wouldn't have known they were dead. Satan thinks in the same way. Sin is simply lieing to yourself. In every context of the word. Satan lies to himself all the time. Satan tries to tempt us because he thinks it makes everyone win. He makes himself happy in his twisted little way, but he thinks he makes us happy because we enjoy it so much. He knows he is hurting us, but he doesn't care because he doesn't agree with God. He thinks himself to be God, in that he tempts us to come to him. He thinks that through sin he will make us happy, and that this will draw us to him. He has fooled the world that he doesn't exist, though. So he gets nowhere. He also hates us through his jealousy. I will explain, but do you not see his insanity?

Before man Lucifer was God the Father's right hand. He played beautiful music. Lucifer always had pride in him from this. This pride is evil to God, because it put all others below Lucifer in Lucifer's mind. This pride and evil is what we know as Satan. In this way, Satan tempted Lucifer in his own mind. When God created Adam, he created him in God's image. He commanded all the angels, including Lucifer to bow to him. Lucifer's pride turned to jealousy. God knew this would happen. That's why he created us. Lucifer refused to bow, even though the other angels incouraged him, because he believed Adam should bow to him. After all, he was older than Adam, thus he was higher in the hierarchy. When this happen Lucifer welcomed the rage called Satan, using it to war with the archangels of heaven. He was not forced to earth, but he was cast out of paradise. Hell is like the dungeon of heaven. It is far below heaven, but it is heaven to Satan. There Satan took control of Lucifer and subdued him. Satan created his own heaven in hell. He thought himself to be god there.
When Adam and Eve were in the garden, Satan was allowed to tempt them. No one knows how long they were in paradise before Satan was allowed inside being as it was a timeless place. When man goes to heaven they become light, and everyone knows that light is slightly less than the speed of time. In this place days become millenia.
When Adam and Eve were tempted, God did not kill them, because this was God's intention. He was sad that they were tempted, but he knew this had to take place. He sent them to earth and Satan could come as he pleased here. He takes any shape he chooses to tempt man. Through our sorrows from Satan, the angels that ones bowed to us now have grief. When the end comes, God will drive Satan, the spirit of antichrist, and the subjective realist, out of Lucifer's body. Jesus has now taken the right place next to the Father. The subject in that place has traded spots three times. First Lucifer, then Adam, now Jesus. It will remain as Jesus forever. Lucifer will take back his rightful place as orchestrator, and man will walk with the angels. Life has a happy ending.
Satan doesn't believe he is going to die. He gets offended when he hears it. With his subjective ideals he makes people doubt any happy ending. He puts the memory of life's struggle, that he creates, in peoples mind. People don't believe in happy endings because they have either never seen one, or because they have only seen it happen in what they call other people's "pointless" lives. This is the spirit of antichrist and subjective reasoning.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Megan

At present, I see religion as part of our evolutionary process, and, like Teilhard de Chardin, I see it as Ariadne's Thread to guide us through the maze, confusing as religion itself is.

Nobody ever suggested that evolution isn't messy!

So, you are comparing the arbitrary mish-mash of religion to the scientifically accepted theory of evolution?

Originally Posted by Megan

So, yeah, this blood-thirsty God who requires retribution and tortures beyond all reason, how repugnant!

But, still...somehow...there is a rio abajo rio, a river beneath the river, and it runs pure.

I fail to see how that discretion has anything to do with the validity of Christianity?

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

I will explain, but do you not see his insanity?

No, but your insanity is abundantly clear. Please explain... on second thoughts, I think I've heard enough gibberish.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Frans

Radical, as you seem to be a person who is against all religions, I'm sure you have also your opinion about Islam and the Quran.

Do you have the guts to start an anti-Muslim thread and make fun of the Quran?...

I am against the propagation of harmful doctrines and especially the indoctrination of children, who are more susceptible to the falsehoods of religion. Islam is another variant on Christianity, and is likewise just as ludicrous - and arguably even more detrimental!

[JHL]

Read this hilarious quote from The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (one of my idols), and laugh at the absurdity of Christianity.

Radical, I've read many of your posts and greatly respect your intellect and understanding of matters. And to be honest, I can't help agreeing with much of what you are pointing out here. But it occurs to me that there's a certain irony about this particular thread: you are gleefully pouring forth your contempt for Christianity (well, religion in general) and therefore its followers, and essentially attacking them for their belief. What I dont understand is - how does your vitriol here seperate and make you distinct and spiritually or even intellectually better off than the people you are attacking?

The veracity behind your position notwithstanding - I'm just failing to see how your post here is steeped is in any way constructive. I am not Christian, nor even religious, but I can plainly see how people who are would find this grossly offensive. And therefore I ask - in the context of a personal development forum, is this the best aproach?

From another point of view, what I do believe is that what you put out into the world comes back to you. I therefore think that a thread like this is likely to do nothing more than reinforce whatever negative feelings or resentment you have towards religion, and that you will ultimately find such an approach a less-than-optimal avenue for attaining peace of mind. For me, when I can manage it, I find compassion and understanding to be far a more constructive and useful approach for everyone concerned.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by JHL

Radical, I've read many of your posts and greatly respect your intellect and understanding of matters. And to be honest, I can't help agreeing with much of what you are pointing out here. But it occurs to me that there's a certain irony about this particular thread: you are gleefully pouring forth your contempt for Christianity (well, religion in general) and therefore its followers, and essentially attacking them for their belief. What I dont understand is - how does your vitriol here seperate and make you distinct and spiritually or even intellectually better off than the people you are attacking?

The veracity behind your position notwithstanding - I'm just failing to see how your post here is steeped is in any way constructive. I am not Christian, nor even religious, but I can plainly see how people who are would find this grossly offensive. And therefore I ask - in the context of a personal development forum, is this the best aproach?

From another point of view, what I do believe is that what you put out into the world comes back to you. I therefore think that a thread like this is likely to do nothing more than reinforce whatever negative feelings or resentment you have towards religion, and that you will ultimately find such an approach a less-than-optimal avenue for attaining peace of mind. For me, when I can manage it, I find compassion and understanding to be far a more constructive and useful approach for everyone concerned.

Sorry if I've caused anyone grievous intellectual harm.

But the perils of religion are ubiquitous - religion is at the heart of so much misery and destruction.

As Dawkins puts it in The Root of All Evil?, "without religion good people would do good things and bad people would do bad things, but for good people to do bad things it takes religion."

[Radical]

Each religion is a memeplex of religious memes, fine tuned over generations of natural selection to ensure their own propagation and survival. I believe Dawkins is right when he refers to religion as a "virus of the mind", it plays off human predispositions, and is aptly designed to ensure its own survival - since if you even dare to question religion you are 'blasphemous'. And isn't it quaint how the one virtue religion holds above all else is unquestionable faith? Generosity and compassion are irrelevant - for a murderous psycho can enter the gates of heaven if he shows faith and repents. Yet a law-abiding atheist is sentenced to an eternity of torment and damnation?

[Joshiepoo3000]

If you question everything, then you will find no answers. When questions are used to answer questions nothing has been proven, but when you chose to make your choice and give an answer, the truth will be revealed. Do not be so afraid to be proven wrong. Cowards talk big words and chose to play it safe.

[Joshiepoo3000]

You make your own predisposition to compare religion and viruses. One knows nothing to accuse the believer that is in search of happines, because one is afraid. Do not slander those that have wronged others in the name of their religion. Embrace your enemies so that you may overcome them with peace. Do not let fear get the best of you. For we are all sinners, and no man should be so much like an abused dog when one has not been abused. If you have been abused, then be a man and not a dog.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Joshiepoo3000

If you question everything, then you will find no answers. When questions are used to answer questions nothing has been proven, but when you chose to make your choice and give an answer the truth is revealed. Do not be so afraid to be proven wrong. Cowards talk big words and chose to play it safe.

I'm sorry, so you're saying you can only derive answers by not asking questions? I don't quite understand your logic.

And I am certainly not afraid to be proven wrong! Science is about demystifying the mystical, whereas religion only serves to harbour the mysticism.

"The priests of the different religious sects... dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight." - Thomas Jefferson

[Joshiepoo3000]

One man must question, but the other must answer. It is by the nonesense of subjective realism that one man is cornered and refuses to answer.

[Megan]

Without religion good people would do good things and bad people would do bad things, but for good people to do bad things it takes religion.
--Richard Dawkins

Great quote, Radical. Dawkins is amazing, and has probably helped a lot of people get out of abusive religious situations. Wish I could have borrowed some of his backbone in my day.

His confrontation with (later to be disgraced) Ted Haggard, head of 30 million American Evangelicals, in "Root of All Evil" is just incredible, isn't it?

YouTube - Ted Haggard in "Root of All Evil?"

By Radical, Today 09:41 AM

But the perils of religion are ubiquitous - religion is at the heart of so much misery and destruction.

I couldn't agree more. The history of religion is a bloodbath. And you left out Luther's horrendous anti-Semitism, which arguably fueled the Holocaust, beginning with Kristallnacht, in November 1938:

The Nazis carried out their first large-scale pogrom of Jews in honor of Luther's birthday.

Hitler's Christianity

See also:

Martin Luther's dirty little book

However, the Lutherans share with much of Christianity the shame of the Holocaust. Dietrich Bonhoeffer stands out as a star in the night.

By Radical, Today 09:28 AM

I am against the propagation of harmful doctrines and especially the indoctrination of children, who are more susceptible to the falsehoods of religion.

Totally agree. I think the way we raise our children is the key to the world situation, and religion many times creates a brutal environment for children and thwarts their natural development, which is their birthright, and what we owe every one of them.

By Radical, Today 09:08 AM

So, you are comparing the arbitrary mish-mash of religion to the scientifically accepted theory of evolution?

I'm speaking of evolution itself, not the theory of evolution. I believe religion is part of the evolutionary process. How could it not be?

If the religious impulse is evolutionary in nature, could we not expect it to evolve as well?

[Joshiepoo3000]

Religions do evolve, but the God's they worship does not. If such a god were to evolve from a dog into a cat, then the believers of that religion have not seen the true face of their God. If such a God were to evolve from a dog into a wolf, then their God's face has been seen.