Thoughtless state

[moviestar]

All eastern philosophies talk about a thoughtless state. They tell you that you are somehow separated from your thoughts and you can shut them down. Through practices of meditation and awareness you can gain a higher level of being, enlightenment being the highest form of mental functioning.

I would like to question that and invite you to a discussion.

What is this thoughtless state everybody is talking about? I've come to a realization of how absurd this concept is.
Anyone that has been practicing meditation feels what it is like and has an idea where to go with it. It feels very peaceful and blissful and you have a desire to maintain that state. But is this experience what we are looking for? Is there anything like no-thought?

How do you know you are in thoughtless state?
The moment you look at your thoughts you are thinking! There is no way you can look at thoughts without thinking. The observer, in my oppinion, is an illusion. Thought is all there is. If thought ends, you come to an end. You die. When you experience the illusion of thoughtless state there is something there. You are actually remembering something, you are thinking.

What is thought anyway? Is there any way of looking at thought? How can you separate yourself from thought? And why do people buy this concept and make self-proclaimed gurus rich in an going cycle of search for the ultimate bliss that takes on since the beginning of humankind?

So, let's discredit 1000 years of eastern philosophy here or prove me that it is not an illusion.

[magickmystik]

between every thoughts there is the no-thoughts

thoughts...... no-thoughts..... thoughts...... no-thoughts

[moviestar]

Where is the line between thoughts and no-thoughts? How do you know what is no-thought?

[dcaldwell]

What makes you feel there needs to be a well-defined demarcation line? So you know you've gone past it? So you know you've achieved something? Why must you precisely know?

When you enter into a state of emptiness (no-thought), you don't experience or can even observe thought or emotion. Those don't exist as part of your true self, and neither does time in the linear-sense. Can you know you're in a state of emptiness? No, of course not. If you think you can, you're not in it. There's a reason it's called emptiness/no-thought!

Any realization you may have entered a state of emptiness is in the after-effects. But as long as you want or need it, it will always elude you.

[Antarananda]

Have you ever meditated for an extended period of time, yourself?

[Victoria]

Originally Posted by dcaldwell

When you enter into a state of emptiness (no-thought), you don't experience or can even observe thought or emotion. Those don't exist as part of your true self, and neither does time in the linear-sense. Can you know you're in a state of emptiness? No, of course not. If you think you can, you're not in it. There's a reason it's called emptiness/no-thought!

Any realization you may have entered a state of emptiness is in the after-effects. But as long as you want or need it, it will always elude you.

I can attest to this being true from experience, as I didn't intend it to happen; I realized it did afterwards!

[moviestar]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

Have you ever meditated for an extended period of time, yourself?

Yes. I have experience with meditation. I can enter the so called thoughtless state easily but I am questioning its existence.

When you enter into a state of emptiness (no-thought), you don't experience or can even observe thought or emotion.

This implies that there is an observer. I'm saying that there is no such thing because you are your thoughts. There is nothing else there.

What you call a peaceful mind to me is just an emotion. It happens when your internal dialogue stops. Suddenly there is quietness in your head and you're filled with peace. For me it is just a state of listening to the body, it's a feeling.
Feelings and emotions to me are also thoughts. So you cannot escape this. Why would you?

[Antarananda]

Originally Posted by moviestar

Yes. I have experience with meditation. I can enter the so called thoughtless state easily but I am questioning its existence.

From your words and questions, I have a feeling you have not truly had an experience of the Self, which is beyond even mind itself, let alone mere thoughts. You have made several errors (or maybe you use words more loosely than I do). For example:

enlightenment being the highest form of mental functioning.

Enlightenment has nothing to do with mental functioning. Bliss isn't some sort of sensory experience, but is remaining established in the natural state of Being.

This implies that there is an observer. I'm saying that there is no such thing because you are your thoughts. There is nothing else there.

Incorrect. What dcaldwell implied was that you reach a state where duality dissolves, and the experiencer, the act of experiencing and the object experienced all coalesce into One, the Self. Just because the Realization does not remain permanent does not mean that it was imaginary. All it means is that still much work needs to be done to stabilize the Realization while engaging in the waking state as well.

What you call a peaceful mind to me is just an emotion. It happens when your internal dialogue stops. Suddenly there is quietness in your head and you're filled with peace. For me it is just a state of listening to the body, it's a feeling.
Feelings and emotions to me are also thoughts. So you cannot escape this. Why would you?

Bliss is beyond peace of mind. It is the state of no-mind and no-body. You realize that the world, with you included in it, is all a mirage, and you cease to exist as an independent entity. So, there is no question of having to escape anything at all. Spontaneous thought and random emotion continue to appear and disappear. No-mind does not mean no thought. All it means, is that you have ceased to identify with thoughts and have relinquished ownership over them, thus ending the root source of suffering. That is bliss.

This quote from my Master might clarify concepts:

"Every thought that arises in us is like a bubble that forms, rises and dies. Every thought independently rises and dies before the next thought comes up. For example, if you are sitting in a chair and suddenly get up, the moment you have decided to get up, that moment the thought of sitting has left you. If you are working on your computer and decide to shut down the machine, that moment, the thought that you want to work has died. So, every thought is unconnected and happens in series, one after the other. One thought has to die before the next one comes up. This is our true nature.

Our true nature is to renounce thoughts every passing moment. By the word renounce, I mean simply allowing each thought to rise like a bubble and burst and allowing the next thought to rise. Our thoughts have only a vertical existence, like rising bubbles.

This process of allowing thoughts to rise and die without trying to connect them is what we mean by being unclutched. As long as this natural process is allowed to happen, things are alright. But, we start connecting these random thoughts and create a "shaft". By doing this, we convert the "vertical", unclutched process into a "horizontal" one with linear connectivity.

Here starts the whole problem. As long as each thought is allowed to rise and die, we can take on any amount of load at the physical and mental planes and our consciousness will remain light and blissful. Once we start connecting thoughts, our consciousness suffers and we start feeling burdened. It becomes damaging to our being. All emotions like worry, lust, discontentment, jealousy, fear, ego and attention are purely because we find a connection between independent incidents, between independent thoughts, and we create a concept for ourselves and start relating with that concept. We create an imaginary shaft with our thoughts and we suffer because of this. Living in an unclutched fashion is the way to a blissful life. Just decide that you will not connect any two thoughts, that you will not pass any judgment on any thought or incident."

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

I connect thoughts and experiences all the time, I see connections everywhere. Are you saying that I should cease this. The connections are NOT there, I am only creating the connections through my preconceptions? This has been very tiring for me, I have mental fatigue daily because I am always thinking. Should we not be trying to "figure" it out? Just let it be?

[moviestar]

Quote:enlightenment being the highest form of mental functioning.

Enlightenment has nothing to do with mental functioning. Bliss isn't some sort of sensory experience, but is remaining established in the natural state of Being.

I claim that it is a sensory experience.

This quote from my Master might clarify concepts:

I understand the metaphor of bubbles. I have this experience while meditating. I can cease to identify with thoughts and they dissolve. What I don't agree with is that between those "thoughts" - bubbles - I have no-thought. I see it as an experience, a sensation. This experience is still thinking. I define emotions and everything that is in my conciousness as thoughts. Bliss is a thought.

I imagine the thoughtless state, Being, as something totally different from anykind of experience. But the experience all the eastern philosophies talk about I see as something that happens with me when I'm watching a good movie or listen to some beatiful music or contemplate a magnificent scenery in nature. There are no "bubbles" appearing in my mind, there are no connected thoughts. I am simply being, absorbing the surrounding. But there is nothing mystical about it, I am still there, the thought is still there.

[dnadadur]

Hi Moviestar,

My current realization is that thought can never cease to exist, for thought is what creates the universe. In the Hindu philosophy, the universe is thought to be a dream of Brahman--created by the cosmic mind.

Thought can only fall into natural rhythm. The natural rhythm is the disconnected thoughts you have mentioned. You are simply being and not creating a story using these thoughts. There is this one thought trying to connect other thoughts to create a story. You can call this mediating thought as, "ego, mind or limited self or whatever." As long as this mediating thought is there the thought cannot fall into its natural rhythm and be one with life. If we can remember the state, it is a thought induced state in the realm of experience. The techniques for expanding the silent space between the thoughts were designed to arrive at a state where you (the mediating thought) breakdown and cease to exist. But, again these are all concepts and more concepts we accumulate the more difficult it will be for us to let go.

I have read the following book a couple of times and it helped me drop a few of my perceptions/conceptions: "The Mystique of Enlightenment" These were interviews with U.G. Krishnamurthi (*not* J. Krishnamurthi). Someone compiled some of them into a book. U.G. wanted to call this book, a "Mistake of Enlightenment." You can read this book and others online at (U.G.Krishnamurti) .

- Desika

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by dcaldwell

But as long as you want or need it, it will always elude you.

This is so true. Quoted for emphasis.

Let go. Stop chasing, grasping, searching, seeking, fear, desire. Just stop.

[Sunnybayes]

Your left mind [brain] thinks in words. Your right mind think in feelings, it does not have language circuits. Basically your right mind dominates and your left mind shuts up and then when "you" (your talking left mind that is) looks back it says "I was not thinking", it was for once not the dominate one and it was the right mind that was doing the thinking.

Take a look at my thread in my signature for more of what I mean.

Myself, I'll often let my right mind dominate my behavior.

[Maguru]

A true experience of self must include the whole self and not exclude the mind. A blissful mindless experience is experiencing a part of self but the whole self? You are joking!

[Groundless]

You are not the mind, not the body.

The whole true self is not the mind.

You will need to experiene this to understand this.

[ZHereford]

Hi moviestar, as some who identifies with the western philosophical tradition , I'm not sure what you're looking for, but I don't know why anyone would not want to take ownership of their thinking process. It's what gives us direction and focus. Eastern philosophy is great for balancing our western left brain tendencies but it's not necessarily the answer to every situation. Using combined strategies and adapting them to what works for the individual is what one should strive for. Trying to achieve a certain state just because someone says you should doesn't make sense. No one culture or tradition has all the answers. If it did, the world would be a much different place!

[Liara Covert]

Hi moviestar.
No matter what kind of meditation experience you have had, it seems like you could deepen your experience. I wonder if you have ever heard of Eckhart Tolle? One book you might enjoy by him is The Power of Now.

[moviestar]

Hmmm after looking at this post after a few months, I see I was right, but I did not understand all of the eastern philosophy.
The gurus that claim there is no-thought are wrong, some of them know that it is an illusion but nevertheless teach there is no-thought (just because it is a necessary step in the process of learning yourself). This is why I like U.G. Krishnamurti, he knows his stuff.

There is no thoughtless state because you cannot separate yourself from your thoughts, you ARE the thoughts. The division of the observer is an illusion, this is what the truly enlightened people claim.
One technique to get to this realization is to meditate on a single word, or thought, or image all day long. I came to this understanding by accident, mostly by reading U.G. and R.A. Wilson.

[Liara Covert]

Hi moviestar,
If anyone ever thought understanding everything was possible, then life would lose much if not all of its meaning for a lot of people. Learning the difference between judging and not judging is like surpassing a hurdle. Its all part of evolution.

[Mark Lapierre]

For a neurological opinion read Descartes' Error by Antonio Damasio. He suggests that there is a constant, poorly defined background feeling "against which we can be aware of myriad other things which manifestly change around [us]." It's a feeling which, in neurological terms, is not mapped to any specific location in the body, but is rather an internal representation of overall body state.

I suspect this feeling is the feeling which we experience when we reach that point of no-thought. The perceptual images which we normally think of as thought are quietened and all that is left is the perception of that persistent awareness of the state of our body. We're not usually aware of it because of the distraction our thoughts and perceptions cause.

[Brutha]

All eastern philosophies talk about a thoughtless state.

It is rather a "one-thought"-state. Your only thought is existing here and now.
There is a difference between empty emptyness and full emptyness.
It the opposite.

[moviestar]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

For a neurological opinion read Descartes' Error by Antonio Damasio. He suggests that there is a constant, poorly defined background feeling "against which we can be aware of myriad other things which manifestly change around [us]." It's a feeling which, in neurological terms, is not mapped to any specific location in the body, but is rather an internal representation of overall body state.

I suspect this feeling is the feeling which we experience when we reach that point of no-thought. The perceptual images which we normally think of as thought are quietened and all that is left is the perception of that persistent awareness of the state of our body. We're not usually aware of it because of the distraction our thoughts and perceptions cause.

Yes there is something like that. It is like the final state (can anyone go beyond that?).
Because there are no "normal" thoughts we cannot see how time passes. We observe time by observing the continuity of our thoughts. If there are no thoughts to track it seems as if this moment is infinity. But there is always the awareness, the one-thought, yeah.

[Maguru]

I see the oneness state of being containing three elements, 'one focus (thought), one feeling (desire) and one body (experience) all in harmony. When this is achieved, the whole becomes greater than the sum of all parts and creation is set in motion.

Originally Posted by Brutha

It is rather a "one-thought"-state. Your only thought is existing here and now.
There is a difference between empty emptyness and full emptyness.
It the opposite.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by moviestar

Where is the line between thoughts and no-thoughts? How do you know what is no-thought?

That is a great question.

What is a thought anyhow? A word? A song? A Chevy Camaro?

Where do we draw the line between things like thoughts, desires, and emotions? Are these different types of thought or different things altogether? It seems the closer we get to mind, the more fuzzy our definitions necessarily get.

To me, a thought is an arbitrarily designated division in what is, in reality, a seemless stream of consciousness. One might argue that there are breaks in the stream, such as in sleep, unconsciousness, deep meditation, etc., but I would contend that there are no such breaks.

Ordinarily, we have conscious awareness of self, and because of that, we can maintain a somewhat objective grasp of the fact that we are thinking while awake, but during episodes of sleep, you oftentimes lose awareness of self. This creates the illusion of escape into thoughtless oblivion. You don't stop being aware when you enter the "sleep state", but your boundary of awareness changes to not necessarily include "self".

From my perspective, everything is consciousness -- all energy, all matter, all space. The consciousness of most things does not have awareness of self, only awareness of it's state of action. Or, in other words, the state of action of our consciousness is our awareness of self (or at least one of them). When you lose yourself in deep meditation, you can temporarily achieve a similar state where you are completely absorbed in whatever focus your mediation involves. This could restrict or focus your awareness to states of action such as love, peace, the concept of emptiness (which, ironically, is still a state of action in terms of consciousness). This oftentimes leads people to believe they have achieved a "thoughtless" state. But as I mentioned before, thoughts are not "things", they are false divisions in what is actually a fluid stream. When we compare a part of the stream from now to a part that was there 5 minutes ago, we notice a difference. This just illustrates the fluid nature of the stream. Just because we figure that we were thinking "truck" one moment and "duck" another, doesn't mean that there is no transitioning thought state between thoughts where the concept of "truck" attenuated to the concept of "duck".

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre
Yes there is something like that. It is like the final state (can anyone go beyond that?).
Because there are no "normal" thoughts we cannot see how time passes. We observe time by observing the continuity of our thoughts. If there are no thoughts to track it seems as if this moment is infinity. But there is always the awareness, the one-thought, yeah.

Time is measured by continuity of thought, yes. But it is the continuity of thoughts constantly changing coupled with the awareness of previous states of thought (memory). Time is measured by change. If there was no change, then there would be no frame of reference for time and you would have achieved a state of seeming eternity. Having no capacity of memory would give a similar effect as well, as it would rob you of your ability to measure change even if it was happening.

[justfiverules]

Getting into the state of 1 thought was very easy for me 20 years ago:

Run 6 x 300m at 80% effort with a 90 seconds recovery between reps.

"I want to die" is the only thought remaining at the climax of the session

And if the session is modified to 6 x 150m up a grass hill on a cold, foggy November evening, the state of no thought is reached by about the 5th rep ;-)

[Steven Moros]

You're right moviestar, the concept is absurd.

All the best
Steven

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by moviestar

There is no thoughtless state because you cannot separate yourself from your thoughts, you ARE the thoughts. The division of the observer is an illusion, this is what the truly enlightened people claim.

Well said! Thought is what you really are as is consciousness, if you want to see consciousness, if you want to see yourself, true self, then look to your thoughts. When you sleep you're still 'living' but without the physicality, so you're still thought, still energy, still existing, but without the requirement to build a dense reality.

I've always said that choice manifests and thoughts validate, but it's all non physical energy manifesting into physicality as fast and as easy as it possibly can. The words thought and choice just imply creation and validating. Like you make a choice to find love, then all the validating thoughts support the choice. Choice really is only thought, like belief and decision, but because it is the primary thought is the most important one.

There can never be a thoughtless state for there can never be a state without consciousness.

Max

[Acting Like Godot]

Oh, it is quite simple.

First, let us have a working definition of thought. Some may disagree with this definition, and certainly it could be adjusted. But for now, let's just say that thought is any one of the following:

1. Images in your mind. Eg the memory of your mother's face, or the colour of the walls in the first home you lived in, or a mental visualisation of a mess of numbers as you mentally work out 4563 divided 17.. That's thought.

2. Verbal self-talk in your mind. Eg "The kids are so naughty .... I gotta find a way to manage them better .... Tomorrow I need to finish that project at work ... and call Mr Johnson .... I wonder if I should buy a new vacuum cleaner. " etc etc.

3. Recall of past sensory perceptions (ie sensory perceptions that aren't happening right now, but had happened in the past). This is similar to the mother's face, or the colour/shape of walls mentioned in Point 1 above. However, it goes beyond vision, but extends to other sensory perceptions (eg touch, smell, hearing). Eg you "re-hear" in your mind an interesting conversation you had with your colleagues yesterday.

To be in a thoughtless state, is to be in a state where your mind doesn't have thoughts as described in Points 1-3 above.

We've all been there before. Example - as you lurch around in a wild, crazy roller-coaster ride, you'll be totally present in the moment and you won't have any thoughts of the kinds described in 1, 2 and 3.

Second example - at the moment of intense orgasm, the climax, the peak of your bliss, you won't have any thoughts of the kinds described in 1, 2 and 3,

Third example - you're listening with 100% attention to your most ultimately favourite piece of music by Beethoven. In that moment your attention becomes fused with the music - you're utterly absorbed in the rapture of the music. You won't have any thoughts described in 1, 2 and 3.

Fourth example - you're a sportsman, perhaps a 100m sprinter. In the last 3 seconds of your finest race ever, you put your entire being, your 100% concentration, into moving as fast as possible towards the finishing line.

So these are four examples of how people enter into thoughtless states. And you may enter into thoughtless states through meditation as well.

You can regard it in the following terms:

1. You have no thoughts of the future, no thoughts of the past

2. You are totally present in the moment

3. If you are aware of any sensory perceptions, then you are highly awate of them, and they are of sensory perceptions happening now

4. Your mind makes no intervening judgment, assessment, analysis, in the space between object and perception.

To explain Point 4, say you are listening to the Beethoven piece, you simply listen 100%. You are completely focused on the music. Also you are not describing, analysing, labelling, or judging your perception. You do not, for example, think thoughts like: "Oh this is my favourite part ... Here comes the arpeggio on the piano .... hey, the volume is too loud .... I still remember the first time I heard this piece, it was in 1993 ....". Instead you simply listen, and absorb the music entirely.

Now if you meditate enough, you can access thoughtless states quite regularly. And if you really meditate a lot a lot a lot, you'll reach the point that thoughtless states become the default state, even when you're not meditating.

It does not mean that you become stupid. It means that you think only when you want to think. For example, let's say you need to study. Then you will decide to study, and of course, to think. And when you start thinking about what you're studying, it will be with solid concentration on what you're studying, and your mind won't be distracted into thoughts about what you're going to do on the weekend, what's for dinner later, and who's going to win the Wimbledon finals.

It also means that you develop vast control over your thoughts. In other words, you no longer need to be plagued by negative thoughts. This should not be confused with escapism, or a refusal to face up to your problems. Instead what happens is that because you have such excellent control over your thoughts, you will be able to:

(1) think very clearly about your problem;
(2) understand what can be done, and do it;
(3) understand what can't be done, and therefore just stop fretting, worrying or losing sleep about it.

No more needless spinning-in-useless-circles kind of thoughts.

In the general prolonged absence of useless negative thoughts such as fear, anxiety, worry, anger etc, you simply become blissful.

That is all. Hope that clarifies.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Oh, it is quite simple.

First, let us have a working definition of thought. Some may disagree with this definition, and certainly it could be adjusted. But for now, let's just say that thought is any one of the following:

1. Images in your mind. Eg the memory of your mother's face, or the colour of the walls in the first home you lived in, or a mental visualisation of a mess of numbers as you mentally work out 4563 divided 17.. That's thought.

2. Verbal self-talk in your mind. Eg "The kids are so naughty .... I gotta find a way to manage them better .... Tomorrow I need to finish that project at work ... and call Mr Johnson .... I wonder if I should buy a new vacuum cleaner. " etc etc.

3. Recall of past sensory perceptions (ie sensory perceptions that aren't happening right now, but had happened in the past). This is similar to the mother's face, or the colour/shape of walls mentioned in Point 1 above. However, it goes beyond vision, but extends to other sensory perceptions (eg touch, smell, hearing). Eg you "re-hear" in your mind an interesting conversation you had with your colleagues yesterday.

To be in a thoughtless state, is to be in a state where your mind doesn't have thoughts as described in Points 1-3 above.

We've all been there before. Example - as you lurch around in a wild, crazy roller-coaster ride, you'll be totally present in the moment and you won't have any thoughts of the kinds described in 1, 2 and 3.

Second example - at the moment of intense orgasm, the climax, the peak of your bliss, you won't have any thoughts of the kinds described in 1, 2 and 3,

Third example - you're listening with 100% attention to your most ultimately favourite piece of music by Beethoven. In that moment your attention becomes fused with the music - you're utterly absorbed in the rapture of the music. You won't have any thoughts described in 1, 2 and 3.

Fourth example - you're a sportsman, perhaps a 100m sprinter. In the last 3 seconds of your finest race ever, you put your entire being, your 100% concentration, into moving as fast as possible towards the finishing line.

So these are four examples of how people enter into thoughtless states. And you may enter into thoughtless states through meditation as well.

You can regard it in the following terms:

1. You have no thoughts of the future, no thoughts of the past

2. You are totally present in the moment

3. If you are aware of any sensory perceptions, then you are highly awate of them, and they are of sensory perceptions happening now

4. Your mind makes no intervening judgment, assessment, analysis, in the space between object and perception.

To explain Point 4, say you are listening to the Beethoven piece, you simply listen 100%. You are completely focused on the music. Also you are not describing, analysing, labelling, or judging your perception. You do not, for example, think thoughts like: "Oh this is my favourite part ... Here comes the arpeggio on the piano .... hey, the volume is too loud .... I still remember the first time I heard this piece, it was in 1993 ....". Instead you simply listen, and absorb the music entirely.

Now if you meditate enough, you can access thoughtless states quite regularly. And if you really meditate a lot a lot a lot, you'll reach the point that thoughtless states become the default state, even when you're not meditating.

It does not mean that you become stupid. It means that you think only when you want to think. For example, let's say you need to study. Then you will decide to study, and of course, to think. And when you start thinking about what you're studying, it will be with solid concentration on what you're studying, and your mind won't be distracted into thoughts about what you're going to do on the weekend, what's for dinner later, and who's going to win the Wimbledon finals.

It also means that you develop vast control over your thoughts. In other words, you no longer need to be plagued by negative thoughts. This should not be confused with escapism, or a refusal to face up to your problems. Instead what happens is that because you have such excellent control over your thoughts, you will be able to:

(1) think very clearly about your problem;
(2) understand what can be done, and do it;
(3) understand what can't be done, and therefore just stop fretting, worrying or losing sleep about it.

No more needless spinning-in-useless-circles kind of thoughts.

In the general prolonged absence of useless negative thoughts such as fear, anxiety, worry, anger etc, you simply become blissful.

That is all. Hope that clarifies.

ALG,

I just don't think that's right or at least you're using the word thought to describe something other than consciousness, which of course is acceptable (to you) but not the way I see it.

Consciousness is ever present in the moment, so thought would be a good way to describe consciousness, something so fundamentally always on, always present, but random and purposeful, basically everything.

Max

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Max Power

ALG,

I just don't think that's right or at least you're using the word thought to describe something other than consciousness, which of course is acceptable (to you) but not the way I see it.

Yes I do see consciousness as different from thought. Simple example - a grasshopper is conscious, and so are you. However, if a grasshopper thinks at all, the nature of its thought would be very, very different from yours.