Thoughtless state

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Yes I do see consciousness as different from thought. Simple example - a grasshopper is conscious, and so are you. However, if a grasshopper thinks at all, the nature of its thought would be very, very different from yours.

I agree to disagree and the terminology is very limiting. The word thought can be used to grasp the concept of consciousness as in 'I think therefore I am' and to reference the grasshoper is to maybe imply that a grasshoper is conscious but when? Independently? Only in conscious awareness?

The grasshoper can't exist until consciousness is aware of it, so to say a grasshoper is conscious means to say it is only a part of consciousness when consciousness is there to observe it. As it is observed, it is created. Of course this is from the SR POV, so this discussion is subject to each person's independent POV. You will state your opinion subject to what you believe, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Max

[Anagogy]

For me, the relationship betwen consciousness and thought is this: a thought is the shape that the stream of consciousness has taken at any given time.

When you think of a dog, that concept is what you are aware of.

When you think of peace, that feeling (or concepts associated with that feeling) are what you are aware of.

When you focus on a thoughtless, empty, state -- that is your current awareness. However, still a thought, according to my definition.

Consciousness is awareness, thought is the shape of that awareness. Simple.

So if we go by this idea, the only way to ever stop thinking would be to remove all filters from your consciousness. When the stream of consciousness is no longer being shaped by a filter (which is any conditioning factor in your mind), you no longer have a shape, and hence, no thoughts.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Consciousness is awareness, thought is the shape of that awareness. Simple.

I also agree with your description.

So if we go by this idea, the only way to ever stop thinking would be to remove all filters from your consciousness. When the stream of consciousness is no longer being shaped by a filter (which is any conditioning factor in your mind), you no longer have a shape, and hence, no thoughts.

In fact, Osho explains enlightenment as the state of being free from your past conditioning.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Consciousness is awareness, thought is the shape of that awareness. Simple.

So if we go by this idea, the only way to ever stop thinking would be to remove all filters from your consciousness. When the stream of consciousness is no longer being shaped by a filter (which is any conditioning factor in your mind), you no longer have a shape, and hence, no thoughts.

Since every experience is a conditioning factor, to reach such a state you've have to return to a pre-birth form of experience. You'd have to be able to passively shut out every single imprint of every single experience accumulated throughout your life.

Short of extensive brain damage, do you think that's possible?

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In fact, Osho explains enlightenment as the state of being free from your past conditioning.

Same as Jed McKenna, except he doesn't explain it at all concisely.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Since every experience is a conditioning factor, to reach such a state you've have to return to a pre-birth form of experience. You'd have to be able to passively shut out every single imprint of every single experience accumulated throughout your life.

Short of extensive brain damage, do you think that's possible?

Yes. I do think it is possible, and in my opinion, brain damage wouldn't quite do the trick. I think it would have to involve something transcendent -- something that happens when you let go of the world of form, specificity, and duality completely. I don't know if you put any stock in that sort of thing, but I believe in a state beyond all conditioning, beyond all form as we know it -- a state of All Existence. A state where you realize nothingness never did or could exist, except in this illusion we mistake for the Real World. Call it Nirvana, Heaven, Bliss, God, Source, or whatever else floats your boat.

[moviestar]

Since every experience is a conditioning factor, to reach such a state you've have to return to a pre-birth form of experience. You'd have to be able to passively shut out every single imprint of every single experience accumulated throughout your life.

Short of extensive brain damage, do you think that's possible?

I believe you can do that. This is what happened to U.G. Krishnamurti. After his enlightenment he was like a child. He could speak but he didn't have any proper definitions in his brain. So he walked around all day constantly pointing for example at a flower and asking what is that? He had no memory, or lets say no dictionary to recall what are the things he observed.
He called this state "the natural state".
Also he did not call it enlightenment but a calamity. He saw no use of this state and he would live better without it. He did not believe any sort of practice, meditation or yoga brought him into that state, it was just a biological mutation in his brain.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

-- a state of All Existence. A state where you realize nothingness never did or could exist, except in this illusion we mistake for the Real World. Call it Nirvana, Heaven, Bliss, God, Source, or whatever else floats your boat.

Comforting belief rationalised through comparison with anecdotal accounts of similar experiences? Yeah I know, it doesn't sound anywhere near as cool as Nirvana

Originally Posted by moviestar

I believe you can do that. This is what happened to U.G. Krishnamurti. After his enlightenment he was like a child. He could speak but he didn't have any proper definitions in his brain. So he walked around all day constantly pointing for example at a flower and asking what is that? He had no memory, or lets say no dictionary to recall what are the things he observed.
He called this state "the natural state".
Also he did not call it enlightenment but a calamity. He saw no use of this state and he would live better without it. He did not believe any sort of practice, meditation or yoga brought him into that state, it was just a biological mutation in his brain.

Hmmm, since language is learned he didn't quite shut out every previous experience. Which only highlights how much less beneficial such a state would truly be.

The stories of what some people call thoughtless states don't match with what many researchers and clinicians have seen. That doesn't mean that they didn't experience something. They clearly did, and it's arguably beneficial, but any such state that one is aware of is not a state of no-thought, as dcaldwell, yourself, and others have already pointed out.

But dcaldwell mentioned a realisation which comes afterwards. Anyone who comes to such a realisation should be aware of how subjective validation can lead you to draw incorrect conclusions, while still feeling certain they're right.

Frankly I think the blissful meditative states which still allow self-awareness are much more beneficial. I don't think anyone doubts the benefits of feeling great.

[Maguru]

The usual description of a state of thoughtlessness is bliss, peace, nothingness, etc. It's hardly no thoughts is it? Those descriptions are thoughts. Awareness must be present at all times even when you are not aware that you are aware. This is the observer ever present, ever creating.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by Maguru

The usual description of a state of thoughtlessness is bliss, peace, nothingness, etc. It's hardly no thoughts is it? Those descriptions are thoughts. Awareness must be present at all times even when you are not aware that you are aware. This is the observer ever present, ever creating.

it requires thought to communicate, as accurately as is possible, what the experience is like. words don't do it justice. but while you are in that state, you are not 'thinking' bliss, peace, nothingness. you are experiencing it without thought.

i guess the irony is, that it is impossible to describe thoughtlessness without thinking about it...

[Takuin Minamoto]

Originally Posted by moviestar

All eastern philosophies talk about a thoughtless state. They tell you that you are somehow separated from your thoughts and you can shut them down. Through practices of meditation and awareness you can gain a higher level of being, enlightenment being the highest form of mental functioning.

I would like to question that and invite you to a discussion.

There are many problems with the language, if indeed, that is how it is stated. Let's question all of this.

If "you" are separated from thought, what is the "you" that is separated? This is one of the greatest sources of misery in the history of all the world. The self, the center, the you, the me, somehow thinks it is separate from the activity of thought. But that identity is created by thought.

For whatever reason, the mind will put together our experiences in such a way that seems to give security. It sets up that particular set of thoughts as a center of sorts. The activity of the self, is then projected from that center. The center taks on such an importance, that the mind begins to believe that the center is somehow different from the whole. But that is not at all true. The self is composed of the very same thought that it is trying to escape from. It is a violent mind, and that mind wants to escape from itself.

Hopeless.

That would be like trying to physically escape from yourself.

And as far as having a "higher level of being," is that possible? How can there be any other level other than where you are? Thinking that there is another level to attain introduces time into the mind; I will be better, I will resonate higher, etc. But once time is introduced, psychological time, then thought is in control. You cannot bring time into it without thought.

People say there are different levels of consciousness. I wonder if anyone questions that? The conscious mind is made up of its content. Obviously. And what is the content of the conscious mind? Our thoughts, our experiences, our memories. So how can the content of the conscious mind be at any level at all? It is always what it is. The center believes that this line of thought is higher that that line of thought; this grouping of words and activities is more noble than those. The center strives to find a system that it believes will take it to the next level, not knowing that it is the same as what it is seeking.

What is this thoughtless state everybody is talking about? I've come to a realization of how absurd this concept is.
Is there anything like no-thought?

No thought is not quite right. If there were no thought, I would not be able to type these words. I wouldn't be able to play guitar, or speak any language. That is the area where thought is useful; when it is used as thought. The problem comes when thought, for whatever reason, spills over into other areas. I was mugged by a person that looks different from me, so now, all people that look like that are violent; it is dark over there, and I project some horrible fantasy of what might happen, and now I am afraid; the people on the other side of the hill don't share in my religion and, therefore, cannot be trusted; and so on and so on. Of course, there is absolutely no way to know if any of the above thoughts are true, but we engage in these horrid fantasies anyway.

When you experience the illusion of thoughtless state there is something there. You are actually remembering something, you are thinking.

If you experience anything, by definition, thought is involved. Many people use that word, but they don't really mean it. To say that you have experienced a silent mind is not accurate, but we go on with it. (It would be more accurate to say that we experienced what we thought was a silent mind, but if you experience it, it is nothing new.) Sometimes we are limited by the language.

If there is a silent mind, there is no experience. If one is in the moment, thought does not interfere and it stays where it is useful. Everything else is an illusion.

[Maguru]

My higher self is not in the future as such. It is there all the time but only comes into my awareness when I experience something new. Something I have never seen before, or seeing something differently than before, or a new idea that I have never thought before. If I am fully focussed on something, it can come immediately. Has anyone been thinking of a question and before you have asked, the answer is there?

I have been experiencing this for some time and each time I do, I feel that my consciousness has changed or expanded. I cannot do it at will because my mind runs riot until I can find the core of what it is I wish to know.

This leads me to believe that the purpose of life experiences is to expand the whole consciousness, not just the mind. Hmmmmm............?

[moviestar]

There are many problems with the language, if indeed, that is how it is stated. Let's question all of this.

If "you" are separated from thought, what is the "you" that is separated? This is one of the greatest sources of misery in the history of all the world. The self, the center, the you, the me, somehow thinks it is separate from the activity of thought. But that identity is created by thought.

For whatever reason, the mind will put together our experiences in such a way that seems to give security. It sets up that particular set of thoughts as a center of sorts. The activity of the self, is then projected from that center. The center taks on such an importance, that the mind begins to believe that the center is somehow different from the whole. But that is not at all true. The self is composed of the very same thought that it is trying to escape from. It is a violent mind, and that mind wants to escape from itself.

Hopeless.

That would be like trying to physically escape from yourself.

Or like pulling yourself by the hair out of the water. Interesting thoughts Takuin.
Why do you say that the separation from your thoughts is a source of misery? I think the identification with them is misery and pain.

[Takuin Minamoto]

Originally Posted by moviestar

Or like pulling yourself by the hair out of the water. Interesting thoughts Takuin.
Why do you say that the separation from your thoughts is a source of misery? I think the identification with them is misery and pain.

Sorry about that. What I meant to say was, the me that wishes to separate itself from thought, is also thought. The separator (composed of thought) is trying to separate from perceived misery (from thought). That is the endless struggle and misery, because there is no escape.

The big question to ask is, if you are separating yourself from thought, what is it that is doing the separating? Is it also composed of thought? If it is composed of thought, can there be any escape?

Thanks for pointing that out.

Takuin

[moviestar]

Now I get it.
This is why enlightenment is so random. It can happen in 5 minutes or it can happen in 50 years. The struggle to be free from thoughts is a thought itself!

Hmm... maybe that is true enlightenment. Realizing that there always is thought and being OK with it?

[Takuin Minamoto]

Originally Posted by moviestar

Now I get it.
This is why enlightenment is so random. It can happen in 5 minutes or it can happen in 50 years. The struggle to be free from thoughts is a thought itself!

Hmm... maybe that is true enlightenment. Realizing that there always is thought and being OK with it?

You are right. 5 minutes or fifty years doesn't matter. If it happens, it happens in an instant. Time cannot be involved in that process (if it is a process..."process" implies time, doesn't it?).

It is not a matter of accepting...if you accept it or reject it based on a thought or idea, has anything changed? This is where it can get tricky. If you come to a conclusion, how do you arrive at that conclusion? Does your thought take you to it? If thought takes you there, isn't it just taking you to more thought?

There can be no conclusions in the moment. If you ask, " How can there be no conclusions?" just ask yourself, "What is it that is making this clonclusion?" Is it thought? Your idea of right and wrong? Can you live in conclusions and be in the moment?

Takuin

[Masticator]

I have meditated on and off for around 6 years and never experienced a thoughtless state. On the contrary, by using a mantra or other focus it is possible to concentrate on one thing and ignore all other thoughts. I find this very easy. I don't daydream any more. But a thoughtless state? Never had it.

Perhaps the thoughtless state comes about due to relaxation more than concentration. I wouldn't know though since i have panic disorder. I'm going to be getting valium soon so i will meditate on that and see if that brings me to a thoughtless state.

The thing is, i totally cannot understand how someone would know they were in a thoughtless state. I have heard people say they were thoughtless but have no recall of it. That sounds like sleep to me. Perhaps they get into the lotus posture and go to sleep!

[Akashic_Librarian]

A thoughtless state would mean the temporal lobe had shut down, I.E/ The part of the brain that process sight, sound etc...etc...

So if you achieve a thoughtless state go and see your doctor :-p

In all seriousness, why would you want a thoughtless state? You can't do anything. There is plent of time to NOT think when your dead.

[Maguru]

One of my pet hates is being told that "I think too much." I've over-loaded on subject matter but think too much? I think some don't think enough especially those that quote it. I would imagine one focus on one subject on one train of thought is sheer bliss.

[Masticator]

Thinking about something doesn't send a thunderbolt of grace in your direction.

[Advent Shade]

Thinking about something doesn't send a thunderbolt of grace in your direction.

And what exactly is the significance of this? If it is true? I'd like to think I seem fairly graceful in the day-to-day running of my life, all of which is brought about by conscious thought. Otherwise I would be robotic and what is graceful about a limited pattern of action repeated over time?

I would imagine one focus on one subject on one train of thought is sheer bliss.

I would absolutely agree with this. Enlightenment sounds so boring to me. No thoughts! I like to think damn it! I just don't think western/eastern philosophies will ever be suited for me. I am honestly too busy being stunned and fascinated by the mystic nature of the universe and all the things it contains in it. Cosmology is such a mind-blowing subject and will always have a special place in my heart.

[stephencp]

I won't try to add much here except to encourage people to read books from Nan Huai Chin and Bill Bodri at MeditationExpert.com brings you advanced meditation lessons

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

A thoughtless state would mean the temporal lobe had shut down, I.E/ The part of the brain that process sight, sound etc...etc...

Nope. "Thoughtless state" actually means that the tendency to label, categorise, classify, associate and link has shut down (or temporarily gone on hold).

That's why your awareness & perception expands, and you feel more alive than before. Everything is fresh and new and wonderful.

I'd explain further, but really what is the point. It's like explaining the feeling of sex to a virgin. It's the old problem of the map not being the territory; and things and their descriptions. I can give you the description but what you really want is the thing itself.

Can't help you there ....