Why are people so afraid of suicide?

[Byron]

What is the truth of suicide? For the individual, society, and spirit?

The modern views of suicide are based on dogma of religion, law, or medicine, but neglect the personal, moral, natural, and spiritual views.

So, what is the truth of the subject?


Regarding the cost to society-- it is often more costly for society to sustain a life that does not want to be lived, than it is to let it go.

It is also more energetically costly to keep someone pushed in 'life' whose spirit is not entirely in life, and their work and energy that they give off to others that are fully in life, is energetically draining. It is better for a light to be on or off, not halfway on or draining electricity inefficiently, if it does not want to be on.

Societally, if abortions are so widely accepted and progressive, that it is generally better not to give life to something that cannot be sustained,
then why not the same for those who are already alive outside of the womb, who feel their own lives can no longer be sustained?

And naturally, injured animals would rather die than live impeded lives in sanctuaries or zoos.



It is healthier for the body to release cells that are no longer functioning, even if their life span is not yet finished.
And for the diseased branches of a tree to be pruned, rather than to be sustained simply for the sake of living.



The current model of applying a blanket statement that suicide is bad and no one should commit suicide, is to overlook the nuances and individual circumstances surrounding a contemplated suicide.

Often, the contemplator faces a spiritual or moral dilemma, or circumstances that cannot be reconciled.

The current view of society is that the person should keep on living, despite his spiritual or moral pain.


There is a difference between rash suicides, done out of anger or impulse, or reaction to temporary circumstances,
and those that are really thoughtful, in which the contemplated suicide has gone through counseling, and already explored suitable options for living
(this includes dealing with irreconcilable circumstances, maintaining moral and spiritual integrity, dealing with terminal mental or physical illness, and euthanasia). Most impulsive suicides probably should be prevented, so that the individual can think clearly and act in a rational manner only. But here we can talk about thoughtful potential suicides.

Sometimes morally and circumstantially, life is better to be ended in a thoughtful manner, than to be sustained in an inferior or unacceptable manner.



So, what is best for the individual, spirit, and humanity as a whole? Are the current views accurate and in accordance with higher moral truths, both universal and individual?

Will suicide one day be more accepted in society?

[Maguru]

Are you speaking from experience of being suicidal or attempted suicide? Or are you just an observer?

[Parthon]

Firstly: the religious, legal and moral standings against suicide stem from the fear of death almost all people have, because noone faces their mortality. It's just an outward expression of an internal struggle.

Will suicide be more accepted? I hope not.

I believe every life is sacred and full of potential. There are very few suicides that aren't impulsive, considering that most suicides are based on societal and personal circumstances, they can't be anything but impulsive. Can someone actually stand there in full consciousness and say "My life isn't worth it. I should be dead."?

There's only two circumstances that would actually fit that bill. If the person was terminal and in servere pain, or completely unable to act, then it would be a wise and conscious choice to use euthenasia. If there was no hope of recovery, and the person could say "I can do nothing else while I'm here except suffer." then it would probably be better if they passed quietly, quickly and painlessly.

The other circumstance would be if someone had a complete and total, uncurable mental defficiency that caused them to harm others directly. I don't believe there is any psychosis like that, because with enough treatment and willpower anything can be overcome. It could be a long, hard and possibly mentally and spiritually agonising path, but if travelled the person would come out the other end renewed and redeemed.

What I would like to see is way more compassion being brought to those people that wish to die. We are all one humanity together, so for one of us to kill themselves would be like a part of a body just dying. It doesn't serve the body for healthy cells to be randomly killing themselves, and it wouldn't serve humanity for people to be killing themselves either. We are all here on our own path to learn, experience and grow. The depression that leads to suicide is caused when that path is not followed.

[Cran]

I'd also say that suicide should be an accepted option to end one's life.
Currently, the opinion seems to stem from religion (God does not allow it, or in the secular version, it is not allowed because of the waste of potential) or medicine (suicidal intentions are always a sign of mental illness, which is wrong).
This is a modern view anyway, think about all those Romans who prefered to kill themselves instead of facing defeat, or samurai who killed themselves rather than facing shame. This was accepted and lauded, not shunned.

I believe that life belongs to the person that lives it. If the person thinks it not worthwile, or imagines life after death to be BETTER, why shouldn't he commit suicide, if he has thought it through and is not acting rashly?
A concept corresponding to abortion appeals to me: Mandatory counseling, and then you can go ahead with it, no hassle.

Better Cleopatra than Marie-Antoinette...

[fellowtraveler]

Completely selfish in most circustances. But one is free to be selfish. In that case I imagine that kharma would dictate that at some point the suicidist would be provided the same feelings of loss, abandonment and fear that he caused others by his suicide.

Euthanizing a psychotic person as described is murder, unless he is killed in the process of doing damage and cannot be restrained. From study and secondhand experience, the extreme psychotic is in no distress and not suffering, all appearances to the contrary.

[Parthon]

Most of my beliefs around suicide are actually reflected in this great article:
The Spiritual Consequences of Suicide

The main problem for me is that I think about who chooses suicide, and why. A healthy, wise person who is living their desires and dreams certainly wouldn't want to cut their experience short. So if someone does want to, then they either aren't healthy, aren't wise or aren't living the life they want to live. Now, most of the time, health, wisdom and quality of life can be improved. If it can't though, then that's another matter.

It all comes down to accepting the consequences of actions. That person's unique presence in the world will be lost, thei path will never be travelled and their expression to the world will never be experienced. There will be a gap. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's something that will happen.

[Mew3692002]

From my own experience, I would agree with Parthon, I found that after I spent years of going through the ache of suicide when I was looking back, suicide probably wouldn't have been a good idea. I wouldn't have made the huge impact that I have made in people's lives or others lives making an impact on mine as I have discovered. It is really tough going through suicide but I think that the exception would be if the person really will die and that will just speed up the process. Such as if there is a dying person that is supposed to die, but because of life support machines and the grief of his/her family, he/she cannot die.

Taking that person off life support would be considered a suicide of sorts and I believe in that case, it would be a good idea to have suicide as an acceptable way to die. Suicide isn't always a healthy person killing his or her self, it could be a dying person who's family or those close to him/her is just keeping him/her alive because of their ideals of clinging to life even after the fact.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Most of my beliefs around suicide are actually reflected in this great article:
The Spiritual Consequences of Suicide

The main problem for me is that I think about who chooses suicide, and why. A healthy, wise person who is living their desires and dreams certainly wouldn't want to cut their experience short. So if someone does want to, then they either aren't healthy, aren't wise or aren't living the life they want to live. Now, most of the time, health, wisdom and quality of life can be improved. If it can't though, then that's another matter.

It all comes down to accepting the consequences of actions. That person's unique presence in the world will be lost, thei path will never be travelled and their expression to the world will never be experienced. There will be a gap. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's something that will happen.

From personal experience none of this would be considered in the suicidal person. The emotional and psychological agony becomes unbearable and suicide becomes the final solution. It is very painful and can never be a good thing.

[openeyes]

I could see it becoming more accepted if/when mortality is no longer a given, with people being able to live about as long as they want aside from accidents.

I think assisted suicide should be an option for anyone after they've been assisted in examining alternatives.

After my dad had a stroke ~2 years ago he told us that if he didn't recover sufficiently he'd be fine with checking out of this world, and we likewise told him we wouldn't blame him for doing so. He's still working on moving forward, so I don't yet know how things will end up. He lived an adventurous life up to the point of the stroke, so at least he didn't leave much undone.

To any physically healthy person feeling unsatisfied with things, maybe getting a little closer to one's sense of life/death would help, via (safely managed) extreme sports or volunteering with hospice patients.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Byron

And naturally, injured animals would rather die than live impeded lives in sanctuaries or zoos.

All of the other stuff aside, I'm curious just how many animals have told you this...

[Byron]

It seems the animals can speak for themselves

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Most of my beliefs around suicide are actually reflected in this great article:
The Spiritual Consequences of Suicide

The main problem for me is that I think about who chooses suicide, and why. A healthy, wise person who is living their desires and dreams certainly wouldn't want to cut their experience short. So if someone does want to, then they either aren't healthy, aren't wise or aren't living the life they want to live. Now, most of the time, health, wisdom and quality of life can be improved. If it can't though, then that's another matter.

I think you are setting up what life 'should' be and if it isn't that, then people can kill themselves. I actually think that this kind of expectation on life is what leads people to suicide. Life should be X, but it is really Y. People resist that. And suicide is the final choice in that resistance.

The thought of killing oneself has spiritual implications. And I'm not talking about burning in hell. I mean that it is a point of spiritual death/re-birth. So I would say that people who have contemplated suicide and lived through it are really alive as opposed to pacified zombies.

It all comes down to accepting the consequences of actions. That person's unique presence in the world will be lost, thei path will never be travelled and their expression to the world will never be experienced. There will be a gap. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's something that will happen.

Perhaps if I believed that people's value could be measured by their carbon footprint or that they were just bio-chemical robots, then it wouldn't particularly matter if they self-destruct. But I know too much. I know people's value is immeasurable. I know that they are more than their body and mind or their past or what any particular belief system says they are.
And I would say that anyone who understands those things from beyond an intellectual point of view would not consider killing themselves as a viable option.

If anything, suicide is a result of our society's contempt for itself. Making it more acceptable is just a recognition of that contempt and that we can't find a good reason to be alive. Why would you revel in that?

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I think you are setting up what life 'should' be and if it isn't that, then people can kill themselves. I actually think that this kind of expectation on life is what leads people to suicide. Life should be X, but it is really Y. People resist that. And suicide is the final choice in that resistance.

Not at all.

I'm from the school of thought that life is whatever you make it, and that all life is sacred. I see suicide as a malfunction of people not realising this. It's when people see life as an expectation, that's when depression happens, and when thoughts of suicide are entertained.

I however was pointing out the difference between suicidal people and nonsuicidal people. It's true that people who are healthy, wise and ambitious are not suicidal. And it's true that people who are not suicidal are not healthy, wise and ambitious. Or at least, not all three at once.

Life doesn't have to look or be a particular way, but when someone is contemplating suicide, then they are seriously entertaining the thought that they dont' belong here, or that there is nothing left here for them, or nothing more they can offer.

The thought of killing oneself has spiritual implications. And I'm not talking about burning in hell. I mean that it is a point of spiritual death/re-birth. So I would say that people who have contemplated suicide and lived through it are really alive as opposed to pacified zombies.

It sobers me sometimes to know that the only reason why I'm still here is that I made a promise to myself to live, in spite of myself or the world. There was a moment in my life where I felt completely worthless and unwanted, and it was only due to the realisation that the only person in the world that will ever give a crap about me, EVER, is me, that I said to myself "**** it, live to spite the world. If it doesn't want you, then be a thorn in it's side, and live to spite it."

You are completely right though. It was the decision that pushed me from surviving to really living.

Perhaps if I believed that people's value could be measured by their carbon footprint or that they were just bio-chemical robots, then it wouldn't particularly matter if they self-destruct. But I know too much. I know people's value is immeasurable. I know that they are more than their body and mind or their past or what any particular belief system says they are.
And I would say that anyone who understands those things from beyond an intellectual point of view would not consider killing themselves as a viable option.

If anything, suicide is a result of our society's contempt for itself. Making it more acceptable is just a recognition of that contempt and that we can't find a good reason to be alive. Why would you revel in that?

I fully agree with you here.

Suicidal people aren't anywhere near balanced enough though. They are filled with shame, guilt and fear, preventing their true light to shine through. How can you express your true nature when you doubt everything about yourself. By raising our own consciousness and those around us, we can contribute to helping the world raise it's overall consciousness. I would one day like to see the end of despair, hate, unjustice and anger. And the end of suicide.

[lifetimelearner]

speaking from the point of view of someone who has experienced depression
I agree with Maguru -

"The emotional and psychological agony becomes unbearable "

depression can be unbearable and when we consider suicide it is not selfish !!!

the pain felt so real -it's agonizing

what saved me was my children -so I beared the agony and sought treatment

- turned out it was a hormonal imbalance !-

see what the body can do to the mind


I have worked with depressed pt's -post suicide attempt and most are SO
glad they didn't die
others were still in agony

it's very sad

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Byron

It seems the animals can speak for themselves

Sorry... I guess I just don't quite make the connection between a few articles pulled off the internet referencing escaped zoo animals and the comment that animals "would rather die than live impeded lives in zoos or sanctuaries." Firstly, that significantly anthropormorphsizes the animal psyche and secondly I could probably find just as many articles describing an animal chewing its own leg off to get out of a trap - an act that would seriously limit it's ability to survive in the long term yet performed nonetheless for immediate survival.

Suicide is, at least so far as I can find, a strictly Human expression. If someone can show me where I'm wrong, I'd welcome the correction.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Byron

What is the truth of suicide? For the individual, society, and spirit?

The modern views of suicide are based on dogma of religion, law, or medicine, but neglect the personal, moral, natural, and spiritual views.

So, what is the truth of the subject?

truth is that it is murder. self murder. it is killing someone.

Regarding the cost to society-- it is often more costly for society to sustain a life that does not want to be lived, than it is to let it go.

It is also more energetically costly to keep someone pushed in 'life' whose spirit is not entirely in life, and their work and energy that they give off to others that are fully in life, is energetically draining. It is better for a light to be on or off, not halfway on or draining electricity inefficiently, if it does not want to be on.

the judgments needed to sort out who is worthy of living or not is like... well genocide thinking.

Societally, if abortions are so widely accepted and progressive, that it is generally better not to give life to something that cannot be sustained,
then why not the same for those who are already alive outside of the womb, who feel their own lives can no longer be sustained?

might as well conclude all human life should be killed off.

It is healthier for the body to release cells that are no longer functioning, even if their life span is not yet finished.
And for the diseased branches of a tree to be pruned, rather than to be sustained simply for the sake of living.

again- who would be able to make these judgements?

The current model of applying a blanket statement that suicide is bad and no one should commit suicide, is to overlook the nuances and individual circumstances surrounding a contemplated suicide.

Often, the contemplator faces a spiritual or moral dilemma, or circumstances that cannot be reconciled.

if this is a reason for killing (self), then most people would have offed themselves by now!

The current view of society is that the person should keep on living, despite his spiritual or moral pain.

no it isn't - the current view is these people work on getting better - not sit around in pain.

There is a difference between rash suicides, done out of anger or impulse, or reaction to temporary circumstances,
and those that are really thoughtful, in which the contemplated suicide has gone through counseling, and already explored suitable options for living
(this includes dealing with irreconcilable circumstances, maintaining moral and spiritual integrity, dealing with terminal mental or physical illness, and euthanasia). Most impulsive suicides probably should be prevented, so that the individual can think clearly and act in a rational manner only. But here we can talk about thoughtful potential suicides.

thoughtful suicides don't exist. no one thinks they should kill themselves without being really emotional about it, imho.

Sometimes morally and circumstantially, life is better to be ended in a thoughtful manner, than to be sustained in an inferior or unacceptable manner.

easily extended to genocide...

So, what is best for the individual, spirit, and humanity as a whole? Are the current views accurate and in accordance with higher moral truths, both universal and individual?

yes current views are in line with moral truths - not sure your views of these issues are.

Will suicide one day be more accepted in society?

huh? no.

[Michael Chui]

The problem with suicide is that it means society has failed to incorporate and encourage the distinct worldview and perspective the suicidal person could have provided.

The only case where suicide is acceptable is when there is an acknowledgement that one's continued existence is inequal to one's continued life. Cases where medicine is incapable, brain rot, and the like.

And this would include societal ills as well, where a person can be so thorougly abused and outcast they find more solace in death than in society, except that such acceptance is an acceptance of its own failure. This is not a good thing.

[A.K.Light]

I don't think it's that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Just count up all the deaths caused by obesity, tobacco, and traffic accidents. At least the people who commit suicide aren't pretending like they want to live.

[Brutha]

I think that human life has value.
There's a thin line between not doing something to prevent from one who might suffer under depression from death to not helping someone who might suffer under something other from death.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Suicide is a violent act on the self and even most of those people who do not want to live are afraid to do it, not only because they fear it won't work, but also because of the people they'll leave behind to clean up their "mess." If you really want to commit suicide and you are fully committed to it, after you do the act, there will be no one on Earth to judge you for it. I don't believe there's judgment anywhere in the universe. The only judge is yourself, in life and in death.

Suicide is a personal choice, but a very disempowering and selfish one. Sure, you could argue that a dead human who doesn't want to live is better than that human living to use up more resources, but that's kind of grim. If we all raised our consciousness, we could figure out a way to meed everyone's needs and have plenty to spare. It's just too few people are doing it today. Killing yourself is the easy way out. I guess that's why it is so negatively conditioned.

If someone is dying or in debilitating pain all the time, then they have the option to end their life. But ending your life is very hurtful to those you leave behind on Earth.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

speaking from the point of view of someone who has experienced depression
I agree with Maguru -

"The emotional and psychological agony becomes unbearable "

depression can be unbearable and when we consider suicide it is not selfish !!!

the pain felt so real -it's agonizing

what saved me was my children -so I beared the agony and sought treatment

- turned out it was a hormonal imbalance !-

see what the body can do to the mind


I have worked with depressed pt's -post suicide attempt and most are SO
glad they didn't die
others were still in agony

it's very sad

Sadly sometimes, there is no substitute for experience and I wouldn't wish mine on anyone. Others may do well to listen to those who have. Warmest regards

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

The problem with suicide is that it means society has failed to incorporate and encourage the distinct worldview and perspective the suicidal person could have provided.

The only case where suicide is acceptable is when there is an acknowledgement that one's continued existence is inequal to one's continued life. Cases where medicine is incapable, brain rot, and the like.

And this would include societal ills as well, where a person can be so thorougly abused and outcast they find more solace in death than in society, except that such acceptance is an acceptance of its own failure. This is not a good thing.

Symptoms of society. I couldn't agree more. It's becoming an epidemic.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Sadly sometimes, there is no substitute for experience and I wouldn't wish mine on anyone. Others may do well to listen to those who have. Warmest regards

you are so right about experience -I would rather learn from someone who has been there then not
how can someone say I know how you feel when they really don't ??
or judge you as selfish



warm regards to you to Maguru

[lifetimelearner]

increased technology is supposed to make our lives easier but it has created an increase of what Viktor Frankl called the " existential distress "-people lack a meaning and purpose in their lives

look at how some people feel when they are layed off their job-lack of worthwhileness
some even kill themselves


the more we gain the more we lose

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

increased technology is supposed to make our lives easier but it has created an increase of what Viktor Frankl called the " existential distress "-people lack a meaning and purpose in their lives

This is a very nice claim, but I don't see any substance in it. I can guess at the logical progression you stepped through to arrive at this conclusion, but at the same time, I somewhat doubt you've gone through any at all. So I am asking for something more than a hand-waved assertion about the ills of technology and its supposed role of "making lives easier".

[lifetimelearner]

doubt and hand waved assertions ?
hmmm
I will address this later michael

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

This is a very nice claim, but I don't see any substance in it. I can guess at the logical progression you stepped through to arrive at this conclusion, but at the same time, I somewhat doubt you've gone through any at all. So I am asking for something more than a hand-waved assertion about the ills of technology and its supposed role of "making lives easier".

Hope you don't mind me stepping in here, Michael.

From Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience

"Traditionally, the problem of existence has been most directly confronted through religion, and an increasing number of the disillusioned are turning back to it, choosing one of the more standard creeds of a more esoteric Eastern variety.... For hundreds of years these religions provided satisfying goals for people to spend their lives pursuing. But today it is more difficult to accept their worldviews as definitive. The form in which religions have presented their truths-- myths, revelations, holy texts-- no longer compels belief in an era of scientific rationality, even though the substance of the truths may have remained unchanged.... In the meantime, those who seek consolation in existing churches often pay for their peace of mind with a tacit agreement to ignore a great deal of what is known about the way the world works."

I think this strikes at the heart of the problem. It isn't that science and technology are bad, we just don't have a worldview as a society that is compatible with it to give our life meaning. And what gives life meaning has something to do with how we experience life.

While this existential angst may cause some people to take themselves out of the human race, it also provides an opportunity to really tap into the human potential without the fetters of dogma.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

It isn't that science and technology are bad, we just don't have a worldview as a society that is compatible with it to give our life meaning. And what gives life meaning has something to do with how we experience life.

While this existential angst may cause some people to take themselves out of the human race, it also provides an opportunity to really tap into the human potential without the fetters of dogma.

thanks I couldn't have said it better myself

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I think this strikes at the heart of the problem. It isn't that science and technology are bad, we just don't have a worldview as a society that is compatible with it to give our life meaning. And what gives life meaning has something to do with how we experience life.

While this existential angst may cause some people to take themselves out of the human race, it also provides an opportunity to really tap into the human potential without the fetters of dogma.

It does sound like I need to get to reading Flow. Ah, priorities.

And you are effectively correct: the problem is people continuing to fail to take responsibility for their lives, now that the traditional structures that minded that are failing.

My worldview has no problem fitting science and technology in itself, and neither does that of a number of my friends. So while I can somewhat see the existential distress people experience (and I certainly share some of it myself), I consider it an artifact of sheer laziness and willful ignorance. As a culture, we have unchained the prisoners from staring at the shadows on the wall, but they see no reason to turn around, climb the steep slope past the flame and walk into the world.

Blaming science and technology for this doesn't make any sense at all. Take these people and put them on the great, hypothetical Desert Island. Give them no science or technology, but provide easily accessible food and water, with minimal danger. You will still get existential angst, unless they decide to stop whining and come up with their own raison d'etre.

In summary, well... read this:
The Sandman #8

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

It does sound like I need to get to reading Flow. Ah, priorities.

And you are effectively correct: the problem is people continuing to fail to take responsibility for their lives, now that the traditional structures that minded that are failing.

My worldview has no problem fitting science and technology in itself, and neither does that of a number of my friends. So while I can somewhat see the existential distress people experience (and I certainly share some of it myself), I consider it an artifact of sheer laziness and willful ignorance. As a culture, we have unchained the prisoners from staring at the shadows on the wall, but they see no reason to turn around, climb the steep slope past the flame and walk into the world.

Blaming science and technology for this doesn't make any sense at all. Take these people and put them on the great, hypothetical Desert Island. Give them no science or technology, but provide easily accessible food and water, with minimal danger. You will still get existential angst, unless they decide to stop whining and come up with their own raison d'etre.

In summary, well... read this:
The Sandman #8

Yikes, Micheal. THESE people you refer to are US people. Don't you think this is pure judgement holding a very narrow view of humanity and a divisive one at that?

Believe me, to become a stastistic in the group of suicidal personalities was never in my plan. I doubt it was ever anyone's intention, until?

Something happens. Something is amiss. Stigma doesn't help except to promote some great debates.