Why are people so afraid of suicide?

[12aven]

yeah right its my life, i feel the pain, i have lived it and if i choose to end it i will

that's a right that everyone should have, if you have no real power over your outside experiences, at least you have the absolute power of ending this social reaction that is perceived reality

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yikes, Micheal. THESE people you refer to are US people. Don't you think this is pure judgement holding a very narrow view of humanity and a divisive one at that?

And what is wrong with judgement? Judgement is discernment, and discernment is wisdom. I may not be putting it nicely, but I would point out that you are judging me here, and you don't seem to have a problem with that. Is a double standard appropriate, in this case? Look: I am not even saying it is inappropriate.

I never said that we undirected drifters, clearly not exemplars of Steve's advice over the past few years, are irredeemable. Obviously, I hold myself up as an example of someone who has taken at least a few steps, if not enough to satisfy my own ambition and intent. As I say, I too suffer from existential angst. I merely know it, and I eventually and so far inevitably face it down and grow as a person because of it.

Narrow? My vision of humanity is that it is a child barely into its adolescence. We have learned to walk and to talk, and we have taken sand and turned it into sand castles, and we have thrown our toys across the room and wailed at the injust chaos of our world. And now we are beginning to understand the universe and see hints that there is a vast horizon still unexplored, and we wonder exactly what our place in this vista might be. We wonder whether it is ours to craft or others' to command, divine or alien. And it just happens to be my life's mission to make some small progress, or to construct some vehicle by which we can grow a little more and approach maturity by another half-step.

And you say my view is divisive. Divisive between whom, I ask you? Do you believe I am elitist, in seeing that I have made progress where others have not? In that sense, I am, because I believe it to be true. Not everyone is equal, and some people are educated, strong of will, great of character, where others are not. No, those of us who have made the next ledge up the mountain will continue to look upwards. And some of us will take our rope and lower it down, and brace ourselves as the rest follow.

Originally Posted by Maguru

Something happens. Something is amiss. Stigma doesn't help except to promote some great debates.

I have been suicidal myself. I'd say I bring more first-hand knowledge to this issue than most others. I am still suicidal; I have simply chosen to get something done before I allow myself the luxury of death. The death-wish is less strong these days, because I intently focus on life in its myriad forms. I hope to die by a bullet, because I have an irrational belief that it will be an assassination, and that will mean I was worth assassinating. So I continue climbing up the mountain, grabbing a rope when I trust the Spaniard not to drop it, jamming my fists into the cracks when I do not. It is not enjoyable, but it is necessary to achieve what I want to achieve. When I suffer, I bear the suffering. And when I find joy, I bask in its brief light. This is life. It is a suicide mission, but in the words of Steel Brightblade, we will sing the hero songs ourselves.

So no. I am not speaking from the ivory tower either.

To me, science and technology have a particular meaning. They say to me, "Yes, you can indeed accomplish some of the things you have set out to do." I have to strive, and I will shed tears, sweat, and blood, but it is possible, because science has given me knowledge, and technology has given me tools. And I know that, even while I am full of myself and gnashing my teeth at the meaning of my life, when I finally pick myself up and dust off the ashes, I can still gain understanding through science, and achieve good things through technology.

So no. I have no pity or sympathy for those who have "existential angst" and then decide it's all these Cthulu-esque terrors of science and technology imprinting their mark on the experience of our lives. If you want to be inconsequential, then go ahead. Don't whine about having no meaning in your life, though. If you want meaning, go and make it. Take responsibility. Be a smart person, develop yourself personally, grow up, and be consequential.

[Parthon]

Brilliantly said Michael.

I especially love this part:

My vision of humanity is that it is a child barely into its adolescence. We have learned to walk and to talk, and we have taken sand and turned it into sand castles, and we have thrown our toys across the room and wailed at the injust chaos of our world. And now we are beginning to understand the universe and see hints that there is a vast horizon still unexplored, and we wonder exactly what our place in this vista might be. We wonder whether it is ours to craft or others' to command, divine or alien.

It's so true and apt, that humanity as a whole is barely more than a toddler. It, at the moment, is an angsty selfish child, unaware of it's own power and destiny. It has made toys, and with those toys it's broken the world, but no wisdom as yet. I just hope humanity doesn't go "emo" when it reaches adolescence.

As for science, technology and the world, it is a tool, that's it. It does what we tell it to, and that's our power. It has stripped meaning, it hasn't imprinted life with anything that wasn't there. It's just made more apparent the insignificance that one person has. You are one from 6 billion. You are not unique. There are hundreds of others with your name, more than 20 million share your birthday. All of your hopes, dreams and wishes have already been expressed by thousands of other people. You are drowning, alone in a sea of humanity, along with billions of other people, all trying to shout over the noise. Why bother?

Because you can. And because you can stand for something great, something better than all of us, something for all of us. Because the only way to make a difference is to make an impact, be helpful, and elevate humanity in some way, however small. Because that's all we can do as people, and it's enough.

[lifetimelearner]

my statement about technology has been taken way out of context

all I referred to was the fact that technology has replaced people in some jobs and that in itself can cause a existential distress

have some compassion Michael

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

This is a very nice claim, but I don't see any substance in it. I can guess at the logical progression you stepped through to arrive at this conclusion, but at the same time, I somewhat doubt you've gone through any at all. So I am asking for something more than a hand-waved assertion about the ills of technology and its supposed role of "making lives easier".

Okay, here's one.

A technologically enabled world is so much easier to live in because so many things are now so available, whether it's food or vacations, or whatever; this is the demand side of the coin, and it's all very nice.

But the supply side of the coin has made some terrible sacrifices to deliver things so quickly and fairly. Who you are as a person is no longer important to the supply/demand society; it now only cares about what you're worth, and whether you can deliver something that can make money for someone.

Personally, I find this very depressing, revolting, and completely wrong. The mechanics of society are now more important than the people are.

For example, in another thread (on suicide), someone made the point that if a person is of no worth to their society, as in being more of a drain than a benefit, then maybe there's no point in them sticking around. It seems as though the only ones that care about a person specifically and not their value or potential value to society in terms of $, is the person's family, which society considers secondary to job, role, taxes, law, and the like.

I'm betting that one day, a man like Hitler will come around again, and suggest that everyone that isn't rich or can't produce wealth, should just be killed off, to make room, and make it easier for the world to keep supplying and producing. I'm sorry to say that it won't surprise me if such a man is extolled as a hero.

On more than one occasion, I've asked the rhetorical question, if I'm not of worth to anyone else, what's the point in living here? Although society wouldn't have an answer to that question, I have supplied my own. I'm worth staying alive, even if no one else thinks so.

Sorry for being so cynical, but this point really drives me insane!!!!

Oh, and Society, YOU SUCK!

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Starman

But the supply side of the coin has made some terrible sacrifices to deliver things so quickly and fairly. Who you are as a person is no longer important to the supply/demand society; it now only cares about what you're worth, and whether you can deliver something that can make money for someone.

Personally, I find this very depressing, revolting, and completely wrong. The mechanics of society are now more important than the people are.

yes ,yes
thank you

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Parthon

It's so true and apt, that humanity as a whole is barely more than a toddler. It, at the moment, is an angsty selfish child, unaware of it's own power and destiny.

You may find this useful if you wish to look at it from a metaphysical angle. I believe it was Anagogy who initally pointed me to it.

Soul Age - Articles

With some digging you will find that certain soul ages seem to be concentrated in distinct geographical areas of our planet. Makes some sense to me.

[Parthon]

Thanks traveler, checking it out now.

*checking it out*

That was actually really informative. I found out I'm very much an old soul, even though I wouldn't have pegged myself that way. It's the only one that fits.

Saved the rest of the site for future investigation.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

my statement about technology has been taken way out of context

You have been welcome to correct its improper interpretation since you made it two days ago. You were, after all, the first person to respond to my request for more information. But even now, you don't disagree with my assessment of it. You have agreed, time and again, to the way I've responded to it.

If you want to be understood, then explain yourself.

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

all I referred to was the fact that technology has replaced people in some jobs and that in itself can cause a existential distress

How small-minded of you.

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

have some compassion Michael

Compassion? Do you even know what that is? I am not compassionate, because in seeing that a bunch of Luddites are out of a job and now instead of learning new skills and getting new jobs, and hearing them whine about the purposeless of their lives, I am unimpressed? If you want to die so badly, do it. Don't be such a coward about it. Some of us actually make the world a better place; if you don't want to help with that, go away.

And I am being specific about the Luddite reference. I am not talking about anti-technology; I am talking about the Luddite Fallacy. But I have been over this before.

Originally Posted by Starman

A technologically enabled world is so much easier to live in because so many things are now so available, whether it's food or vacations, or whatever; this is the demand side of the coin, and it's all very nice.

This much is true. We have fire, we have sewage systems, we have reliably clean water, we know if a storm is moving in, we know how to make durable clothing. Technology does make survival easier.

Originally Posted by Starman

But the supply side of the coin has made some terrible sacrifices to deliver things so quickly and fairly. Who you are as a person is no longer important to the supply/demand society; it now only cares about what you're worth, and whether you can deliver something that can make money for someone.

And here it is again. Claims made without substance.

I started reading Steve Pavlina because I was told it was a useful site for burgeoning entrepreneurs. Do you know what entrepreneurship is? Do you understand what value is? You're important to me as a person, if only as a pseudonym on an Internet forum. I don't care about whether you can deliver ad revenue for Steve, and I get no money from listening to you talk. So show me what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Starman

For example, in another thread (on suicide), someone made the point that if a person is of no worth to their society, as in being more of a drain than a benefit, then maybe there's no point in them sticking around.

If I care about what someone wants, and what that person wants is to die, then what is so righteous about intervening and stopping them from fulfilling their desire? What makes your desire to be noble more important than their desire to die? Why is it always about you and not the suicidal person?

Originally Posted by Starman

It seems as though the only ones that care about a person specifically and not their value or potential value to society in terms of $, is the person's family, which society considers secondary to job, role, taxes, law, and the like.

If you really cared about them, you would ask what they want, rather than pontificate on macroeconomics.

Originally Posted by Starman

I'm betting that one day, a man like Hitler will come around again, and suggest that everyone that isn't rich or can't produce wealth, should just be killed off, to make room, and make it easier for the world to keep supplying and producing. I'm sorry to say that it won't surprise me if such a man is extolled as a hero.

A nice attempt at Godwin's Law, except Hitler's party platform was that the Jews were stealing jobs (gasp!) and making it hard for honest Germans to get work (this is familiar!). It was not a lie, just as the issue of Mexican immigrants and Asian offshoring and the general problem of automation as a whole are not lies. Like these, they are exaggerations and fantastical speculation, but also founded on statistical truth: we do have the numbers.

The Jews had adapted better and, in a proto-capitalist society, succeeded in making a life for themselves in a foreign country. So naturally, they were a threat. Just as technology is for you. A man like Hitler? Look in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Starman

On more than one occasion, I've asked the rhetorical question, if I'm not of worth to anyone else, what's the point in living here? Although society wouldn't have an answer to that question, I have supplied my own. I'm worth staying alive, even if no one else thinks so.

Find some friends. Really. A true friend is someone who you're curious about, and is mutually curious about you. Who engages you on a level that both challenges and comforts you. A friend's existence says, "You're worthwhile to someone."

Of course your first friend is yourself. That's the basis of why you're interesting as a human being, after all.

This is the primary ill of society: it fails to understand friendship, to educate people in having them, and to encourage it. Instead, we have partisan politics, nationalism, religious arrogance, corporate espionage, anti-trust lawsuits, petty bickering. And schools barely squeak by in exceptional English teachers sharing old and worthy stories of brothers; then they squash it by judging it with meaningless letters. Feh. But I rant.

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Parthon

I found out I'm very much an old soul, even though I wouldn't have pegged myself that way. It's the only one that fits.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Read on.

There are myriad colorations and permutations that can make one thing look like another. Not that it matters much what you specifically are - you still have your lessons to learn. But it is a very interesting system of spiritual psychology, and within its own framework it goes a long way to explain some things about society and individual interactions.

If you found that interesting, you might also like what The Law of One (Ra Material) has to say. Collective souls are cool.

Talk about thread drift, huh?

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You have been welcome to correct its improper interpretation since you made it two days ago. You were, after all, the first person to respond to my request for more information. But even now, you don't disagree with my assessment of it. You have agreed, time and again, to the way I've responded to it.

If you want to be understood, then explain yourself.



How small-minded of you.



Compassion? Do you even know what that is? I am not compassionate, because in seeing that a bunch of Luddites are out of a job and now instead of learning new skills and getting new jobs, and hearing them whine about the purposeless of their lives, I am unimpressed? If you want to die so badly, do it. Don't be such a coward about it. Some of us actually make the world a better place; if you don't want to help with that, go away.

And I am being specific about the Luddite reference. I am not talking about anti-technology; I am talking about the Luddite Fallacy. But I have been over this before.



This much is true. We have fire, we have sewage systems, we have reliably clean water, we know if a storm is moving in, we know how to make durable clothing. Technology does make survival easier.



And here it is again. Claims made without substance.

I started reading Steve Pavlina because I was told it was a useful site for burgeoning entrepreneurs. Do you know what entrepreneurship is? Do you understand what value is? You're important to me as a person, if only as a pseudonym on an Internet forum. I don't care about whether you can deliver ad revenue for Steve, and I get no money from listening to you talk. So show me what you're talking about.



If I care about what someone wants, and what that person wants is to die, then what is so righteous about intervening and stopping them from fulfilling their desire? What makes your desire to be noble more important than their desire to die? Why is it always about you and not the suicidal person?



If you really cared about them, you would ask what they want, rather than pontificate on macroeconomics.



A nice attempt at Godwin's Law, except Hitler's party platform was that the Jews were stealing jobs (gasp!) and making it hard for honest Germans to get work (this is familiar!). It was not a lie, just as the issue of Mexican immigrants and Asian offshoring and the general problem of automation as a whole are not lies. Like these, they are exaggerations and fantastical speculation, but also founded on statistical truth: we do have the numbers.

The Jews had adapted better and, in a proto-capitalist society, succeeded in making a life for themselves in a foreign country. So naturally, they were a threat. Just as technology is for you. A man like Hitler? Look in the mirror.



Find some friends. Really. A true friend is someone who you're curious about, and is mutually curious about you. Who engages you on a level that both challenges and comforts you. A friend's existence says, "You're worthwhile to someone."

Of course your first friend is yourself. That's the basis of why you're interesting as a human being, after all.

This is the primary ill of society: it fails to understand friendship, to educate people in having them, and to encourage it. Instead, we have partisan politics, nationalism, religious arrogance, corporate espionage, anti-trust lawsuits, petty bickering. And schools barely squeak by in exceptional English teachers sharing old and worthy stories of brothers; then they squash it by judging it with meaningless letters. Feh. But I rant.

You seem argumentative, and maybe offended. I meant no offence; I only wish to engage in friendly and respectful discussion of opinions. There's no need for name calling or accusatory language; we're all friends here, right?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Starman

I'm sorry, but your comments seem too inconsistent for me to follow; I wish I could comment on your comments, but I just can't understand them.

You seem argumentative, so I'll let you have the last word.

Eh, I did take a five hour break in the middle of the post. Oh well.

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Starman

You seem argumentative

LOL...

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

And what is wrong with judgement? Judgement is discernment, and discernment is wisdom. I may not be putting it nicely, but I would point out that you are judging me here, and you don't seem to have a problem with that. Is a double standard appropriate, in this case? Look: I am not even saying it is inappropriate.

Micheal, I asked you a question regarding your opinions.........

Originally Posted by Micheal

the problem is people continuing to fail to take responsibility for their lives,
I consider it an artifact of sheer laziness and willful ignorance.

Take these people and put them on the great, hypothetical Desert Island. Give them no science or technology, but provide easily accessible food and water, with minimal danger. You will still get existential angst, unless they decide to stop whining and come up with their own raison d'etre.

I agree you aren't putting it nicely.

And you say my view is divisive. Divisive between whom, I ask you? Do you believe I am elitist, in seeing that I have made progress where others have not? In that sense, I am, because I believe it to be true. Not everyone is equal, and some people are educated, strong of will, great of character, where others are not. No, those of us who have made the next ledge up the mountain will continue to look upwards. And some of us will take our rope and lower it down, and brace ourselves as the rest follow.

Equality is based on humanity, not education and social status. We are equal but some like to think they are better. Aren't we just different?

I haven't actually given your character much thought. I was just addressing the issues but you seem to have taken it personally.

I have been suicidal myself. I'd say I bring more first-hand knowledge to this issue than most others. I am still suicidal; I have simply chosen to get something done before I allow myself the luxury of death. The death-wish is less strong these days, because I intently focus on life in its myriad forms. I hope to die by a bullet, because I have an irrational belief that it will be an assassination, and that will mean I was worth assassinating. So I continue climbing up the mountain, grabbing a rope when I trust the Spaniard not to drop it, jamming my fists into the cracks when I do not. It is not enjoyable, but it is necessary to achieve what I want to achieve. When I suffer, I bear the suffering. And when I find joy, I bask in its brief light. This is life. It is a suicide mission, but in the words of Steel Brightblade, we will sing the hero songs ourselves.

So no. I am not speaking from the ivory tower either.

Maybe not but everyone isn't like you. Everyone hasn't got your strengths. Not everyone can handle the intense pain. Not everyone knows how to take responsibility for themselves. Many are alone without support. Not everyone can be heroes. Not everyone is smart either.

So no. I have no pity or sympathy for those who have "existential angst" and then decide it's all these Cthulu-esque terrors of science and technology imprinting their mark on the experience of our lives. If you want to be inconsequential, then go ahead. Don't whine about having no meaning in your life, though. If you want meaning, go and make it. Take responsibility. Be a smart person, develop yourself personally, grow up, and be consequential.

I am sorry you experience suicidal tendencies and I believe it has been and still is, very difficult for you. I'm happy to give you the opportunity to vent and express yourself. I do have sympathy, pity and compassion for you and for others and for myself. The pit of despair is pretty inhospitable. I wish you well.

[lifetimelearner]

I will ignore Michael's comments and get back to the original topic

Suicide like the Abortion topic are always touchy subjects

there are going to be very personal experiences and opinions

so with so many people in the world how do these issues become resolved ?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

so with so many people in the world how do these issues become resolved ?

I'm taking steps. You guys keep talking about it.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by Byron

What is the truth of suicide?

It's committing murder, of a life you personally have the power to change... for the better.

Originally Posted by Byron

And naturally, injured animals would rather die than live impeded lives in sanctuaries or zoos.

When did you last successfully communicate with animals?, discovering each of their preferences

Originally Posted by Byron

Societally, if abortions are so widely accepted and progressive,
that it is generally better not to give life to something that cannot be sustained

Actually, medical science continues proving just how much earlier, life outside the womb can be healthily enjoyed: Amillia Sonja Taylor was born 10-24-6, at 22 weeks after conception. (Full-term births are 37-40 weeks.) She weighed less than 10 ozs. & was less than 10 in. long. -
Four months later, she weighed over 4 lbs. and did well.
http://www.incrediblebirths.com/worlds_earliest_pre-term_baby.html

Originally Posted by Byron

then why not the same for those who are already alive outside of the womb,
who feel their own lives can no longer be sustained?

Their feelings can, and should be helped, to change...

Originally Posted by Byron

The current view of society is that the person should keep on living, despite his spiritual or moral pain.

For centuries it's been known how easy pain can be stopped, and more Individuals guided into healing, and living happily...

Originally Posted by Byron

There is a difference
between rash suicides, done out of anger or impulse, or reaction to temporary circumstances,
and those that are really thoughtful, in which the contemplated suicide has gone through counseling.

Agreed, there's a difference; but it isn't in what sort of self-murder.

The difference usually lies in whether the "counseling" is abysmally incompetent; or
successful in life-empowering each individual, so they can enrich... her/himself.
What life-enjoyments, best for the individual, spirit, and humanity as a whole, do you want?
.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I'm taking steps. You guys keep talking about it.

so instead of belittling everyone maybe you could just tell us what steps you are taking ?

[Happybird]

Originally Posted by Byron

Regarding the cost to society-- it is often more costly for society to sustain a life that does not want to be lived, than it is to let it go.

That is certainly not always true. I personally know someone who has -repeatedly and seriously- attempted suicide but failed. Now she dragged herself back up from the depths she was in, and is in many ways adding value to society again. I find it strange that you assume that in most cases someone that wants to commit suicide will never want to live again. It is a plainly false assumption.

Originally Posted by Byron

It is healthier for the body to release cells that are no longer functioning, even if their life span is not yet finished.

I would not call it healthy to cut off body parts that are sick may can be healed. If your leg was infected with a disease, and there was even a twenty percent chance of it recovering, would you cut it off anyway?

Originally Posted by Byron

The current model of applying a blanket statement that suicide is bad and no one should commit suicide, is to overlook the nuances and individual circumstances surrounding a contemplated suicide.

Just lacking a desire to live at a certain time in one's life is not a valid reason for me to accept suicide. In some cases I see euthanasia as a right, loving and just thing to do for someone who suffers physically badly, without any chance of improving his or her life. But that is usually a mariginal case.

Originally Posted by Byron

Often, the contemplator faces a spiritual or moral dilemma, or circumstances that cannot be reconciled.

Most people considering suicide are completely and utterly unable to judge whether or not their perceived problems can be solved.

Originally Posted by Byron

The current view of society is that the person should keep on living, despite his spiritual or moral pain.

And why should society expect any less? Suicide is in some ways a cowardly, easy way out. I have little respect for someone committing suicide (I have also known some who succeeded). Society is justified in expecting from humans to face their problems and handle them, not to run away from them.

Originally Posted by Byron

and those that are really thoughtful, in which the contemplated suicide has gone through counseling, and already explored suitable options for living (this includes dealing with irreconcilable circumstances, maintaining moral and spiritual integrity, dealing with terminal mental or physical illness, and euthanasia).

What are these irreconcilable circumstances? I mean, other than terminal physical illness (as fas as I know, terminal mental illness does not exist?).

Originally Posted by Byron

Sometimes morally and circumstantially, life is better to be ended in a thoughtful manner, than to be sustained in an inferior or unacceptable manner.

That, I agree with. There are very limited circumstances in which I would find ending a life the better alternative, however. Such would include:
- physical suffering with no chance of improvement (i.e. someone who would be mortally ill and face the choice of dying today in relative peace or dying after a month of agonizing pains and zero quality of life).
- elderly who lost their will to live and who face serious mental or physical illness. This category is unavoidable as far as I can see, as the day comes closer in which medical science will be able to keep our elderly alive almost indefinitely, even with an unacceptable (i.e. inhuman) quality of live.

Apart from these two categories, I see little reason to find suicide or euthanasia acceptable.

[Happybird]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

While this existential angst may cause some people to take themselves out of the human race, it also provides an opportunity to really tap into the human potential without the fetters of dogma.

Is there any reason at all, any proof at all for this assumption that this "existential angst" even exists? I heard a lot of philosphers and other people talk about it, but no-one I have ever met seems to suffer from it...

[magi13]

Originally Posted by Byron

What is the truth of suicide? For the individual, society, and spirit?

The modern views of suicide are based on dogma of religion, law, or medicine, but neglect the personal, moral, natural, and spiritual views.

So, what is the truth of the subject?


Regarding the cost to society-- it is often more costly for society to sustain a life that does not want to be lived, than it is to let it go.

It is also more energetically costly to keep someone pushed in 'life' whose spirit is not entirely in life, and their work and energy that they give off to others that are fully in life, is energetically draining. It is better for a light to be on or off, not halfway on or draining electricity inefficiently, if it does not want to be on.

Societally, if abortions are so widely accepted and progressive, that it is generally better not to give life to something that cannot be sustained,
then why not the same for those who are already alive outside of the womb, who feel their own lives can no longer be sustained?

And naturally, injured animals would rather die than live impeded lives in sanctuaries or zoos.



It is healthier for the body to release cells that are no longer functioning, even if their life span is not yet finished.
And for the diseased branches of a tree to be pruned, rather than to be sustained simply for the sake of living.



The current model of applying a blanket statement that suicide is bad and no one should commit suicide, is to overlook the nuances and individual circumstances surrounding a contemplated suicide.

Often, the contemplator faces a spiritual or moral dilemma, or circumstances that cannot be reconciled.

The current view of society is that the person should keep on living, despite his spiritual or moral pain.


There is a difference between rash suicides, done out of anger or impulse, or reaction to temporary circumstances,
and those that are really thoughtful, in which the contemplated suicide has gone through counseling, and already explored suitable options for living
(this includes dealing with irreconcilable circumstances, maintaining moral and spiritual integrity, dealing with terminal mental or physical illness, and euthanasia). Most impulsive suicides probably should be prevented, so that the individual can think clearly and act in a rational manner only. But here we can talk about thoughtful potential suicides.

Sometimes morally and circumstantially, life is better to be ended in a thoughtful manner, than to be sustained in an inferior or unacceptable manner.



So, what is best for the individual, spirit, and humanity as a whole? Are the current views accurate and in accordance with higher moral truths, both universal and individual?

Will suicide one day be more accepted in society?

In the Japanese culture it is a revered form of self sacrifice.

Morally speaking it depends on your culture and conditioning. Why people fear it? The church and other religious dominations scared the living hell out of people when they were kids. In our genes too, genetically speaking we are programmed to try to survive. So if you seek death, it's either you are mentally conditioned for it or there is something wrong with you.

@thread starter, seek help as soon as you can and get this problem fixed. Good luck

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Happybird

Is there any reason at all, any proof at all for this assumption that this "existential angst" even exists? I heard a lot of philosphers and other people talk about it, but no-one I have ever met seems to suffer from it...

different philosophers used the term in various ways
Existentialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but
I like the more modern day and simpler version-

as someone frustrated to find meaning for the existance -a purpose

so this version would be the one that could apply to recent times

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

I will ignore Michael's comments and get back to the original topic

Suicide like the Abortion topic are always touchy subjects

there are going to be very personal experiences and opinions

so with so many people in the world how do these issues become resolved ?

Hello again, yes I believe the issue of suicide is an individual one. The cause or the reason is unique and needs to be addressed on that basis. To label and categorise those of us unable to find a way out can perpetuate the feelings and thoughts. Should be, could be, must do, shouldn't be attitudes don't help at all. Well, they didn't help me. They just have the effect of making me feel more useless.

I last attempted suicide in 2000 and the suffering incurred by my failed attempts were nearly as bad as the suffering that caused it. It was because of this reason only that I began to fight for a life I did not want.

The professionals tell you that you will never fully recover but that we can manage/control it. It wasn't what I wanted to hear and in fact gave me determination to beat it. I was experiencing symptoms of PTSD amongst other things. It is only a few months since I went down with a recurrance of trauma and up came the death wish and many other black thoughts and feelings. I sat through this for days without uttering a word. I experienced it and observed it. Not very nice at all but it was all inside me.

I believe that for most people the depression and suicidal thoughts are symptoms of underlying causes. I think suicidal people need to be heard. Regards

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

so instead of belittling everyone maybe you could just tell us what steps you are taking ?

I've more or less covered it in my previous posts already, but to go through it all again:

At a macro level,
1) Persuade society, philosophically, to mature and incorporate radicals more comprehensively.
2) Reform the educational system, from infancy to individual maturity, to include a study of the self more scientific than English and P.E.
3) Construct a planetary-level state government that can more effectively abolish nationalism and other unnecessary segregations.

At the micro level,
1) Identify circumstantial problems with a person's environment preventing growth. Excise these from their life.
2) Provide guidance in the form of discovering role models and introducing principles of living.
3) Reframe their universe in terms of surmountable challenges, rather than frightening persecutors.

I apologize for belittling people; I set my standard at the wrong place, came up with unreasonable expectations, and reacted badly. That's my fault.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I've more or less covered it in my previous posts already, but to go through it all again:

At a macro level,
1) Persuade society, philosophically, to mature and incorporate radicals more comprehensively.
2) Reform the educational system, from infancy to individual maturity, to include a study of the self more scientific than English and P.E.
3) Construct a planetary-level state government that can more effectively abolish nationalism and other unnecessary segregations.

At the micro level,
1) Identify circumstantial problems with a person's environment preventing growth. Excise these from their life.
2) Provide guidance in the form of discovering role models and introducing principles of living.
3) Reframe their universe in terms of surmountable challenges, rather than frightening persecutors.

I apologize for belittling people; I set my standard at the wrong place, came up with unreasonable expectations, and reacted badly. That's my fault.

Thank you Michael I feel more comfortable talking to you this way

[Parthon]

Michael: You do come off a little bit pretentious. There's a slight air of "Oh, I've been through it all before and now I'm improving myself before I die, so that makes me better than other people." A little bit off putting.

As for those ideas/plans, whoa! They would require a huge reform of the whole of society, the way people work together, the way we treat individuals and how all of society interacts. If you really are committed to bring those into reality, then you have a lot of work ahead of you. Much respect.

Just to expand on society vs the individual: Yes, society is only interested on what worth an individual can provide, it's not interested in who they are. That's up to the individual to create and put into the world. If they don't want to do that then society is happy to give them the mediocre existance as a drone in a factory or at a desk. But those that are willing, and those that put in the work, they are rewarded by the machine. If you can create something that hasn't been created before, and it's valuable to the machine, then you will be compensated. If you want to live the life you want to live, then you have to overcome the challenge of figuring out how to live it. You have to make the societal machine work for you, or bypass it completely. That's what all the successful people have done. They didn't sit their in their existential angst and whine about how their purpose isn't given to them on a silver platter. They went out there and grabbed it, or created it, and then overcame all obstacles to make it happen. It's not easy for anyone, but that's the point. The rewards are worth it, but only for those that put in the work.

All this talk about suicide and prevention, and the biggest cause of it is personal apathy. If people were taught that, no, they aren't special, and no, people aren't going to cater for your whims, then they might actually get off their butts and do something to make a difference. You are a unique snowflake, just like the almost 7 billion other people on the planet, and if you don't do something about it, you will eventually melt, and turn into mud, just like the other almost 7 billion other people on the planet. You have the power to create your life, but only if you are willing to go for it and put everything in. The question is, do you have the guts, do you have the courage, to rise out of your pointless mire of an existance and go for it, or are you just going to wallow for the rest of your life?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Michael: You do come off a little bit pretentious. There's a slight air of "Oh, I've been through it all before and now I'm improving myself before I die, so that makes me better than other people." A little bit off putting.

I've realized. Like I said, I made several mistakes in how I approached this thread.

Originally Posted by Parthon

As for those ideas/plans, whoa! They would require a huge reform of the whole of society, the way people work together, the way we treat individuals and how all of society interacts. If you really are committed to bring those into reality, then you have a lot of work ahead of you. Much respect.

Well, the alternative is dying of existential angst, isn't it? I don't really expect to achieve everything in my lifetime; I just figure I can do something useful.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Well, the alternative is dying of existential angst, isn't it? I don't really expect to achieve everything in my lifetime; I just figure I can do something useful.

Great way to live.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Happybird

Is there any reason at all, any proof at all for this assumption that this "existential angst" even exists? I heard a lot of philosphers and other people talk about it, but no-one I have ever met seems to suffer from it...

I started to write you an answer, but I decided against it.

I'm getting real tired of people saying, "My friends don't think that way, why don't you prove it?"

It's just lazy. I quoted a book. Did it occur to you to read it? WTF? Is that too much to ask?

I mean, if you don't think existential angst exists, state your argument and back it up. I'm not doing the thinking for you, sorry.

(I know you just happen to be the last one in a long line and I don't mean to take it out on you, but this type of questioning is becoming epidemic.)