Creation / Evolution Debate and Spiritual Development

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by Angela

So, it makes perfect sense to me to want to share whatever I've got with others, to create situations, relationships, and objects of beauty, and to behave responsibly with the hope that the world might be an even better place to live after I have died. Why? Because that's the meaning I make. It's a meaning that makes me feel good, and therefore it's self-serving (but not hedonistic, I don't think!)

With all due respect, this is what I think is delusional behavior on your part, but only from the perspective of your ego that does not believe in a greater purpose for existence. Of course, since I DO believe in great purpose for existence, the fact that you CARE about humans yet to be born even makes complete sense to me.

But it makes no sense to waste your VERY LIMITED, ONE AND ONLY BRIEF LIFESPAN on any pursuit whatsoever that does not at least have a direct or indirect benefit to YOUR personal subjective happiness and well-being. It is completely illogical behavior for you to CARE about anyone or anything that does not affect you or your life in any possible way.

The fact that you DO care, regardless of your professed beliefs, is evidence that you are, of course, completely mistaken in your beliefs and that you are indeed CONNECTED to everything else simply because there's no LOGICAL reason for you to feel "happy" about the well-being of complete strangers who are completely separated from you not only by location, but also by time.

If I am right about the nature of reality, then that makes you delusional about your belief system. If you are right about the nature of reality, that makes you delusional about some of the things that make you happy.

To sum up: I am delusional only in the latter case; you are delusional in either case. Therefore, I win. It's Miller time!

~ RS

[Angela]

Hey, RS -- no beer for you, yet! My (what you may call altruistic) pursuits do indeed contribute directly or indirectly to my personal subjective happiness or well-being. And I do have a sense of connection, or oneness with all. In those regards, the beliefs you and I hold are in accord, I think. I'm not grasping why you would consider that delusional -- care to tell me more?

Your call that atheists long to be persuaded was off-base though, at least where I'm concerned. I consider a belief in a supernatural god to be delusional, and don't feel anything is missing for me. The natural world is complete and perfect. I don't "want" for anything outside the natural world, like an afterlife, in order to be satisfied, whole, or happy.

Now, what does "winning" mean to you (in the Miller sense, I mean.) Do you want to convince me that I'm wrong about being an atheist? Or what?

[Rocket Surgery]

Well, Angela, OF COURSE you're wrong. But my belief system does not require that its believers go around making converts of the deluded. You will continue to exist after your body dies regardless of what your waking ego believes.

How you MANIFEST that existence, however, is entirely dependent on your core beliefs at the time of death. All I can suggest to you is that you at least keep an open mind to the POSSIBILITY that your personality will survive your flesh, and that will at least keep you from becoming a ghost spirit, wandering around the physical plane and unable to move on simply because your mind refuses to accept that it's possible to exist without a body.

Also, I'm not saying that anyone requires a belief in an afterlife or God or even purpose to be happy. I'm just saying that if one is being completely honest with themselves that they believe in a physical universe ONLY, then it's just plain ILLOGICAL to pursue "happiness" from non-physical sources; i.e. concern for the distant future, concern for the well-being of strangers, empathy for victims of tragedies; education and knowledge that will never have any bearing whatsoever on your physical health, wealth, pleasure, and/or comfort, etc.

From the atheist POV, these pursuits are truly a huge waste of time; especially since this one life, to you, is all the time that you will ever have!

If I were an atheist, and believed to the core of my self-awareness that this was my one shot at life and that when I died, my consciousness would disintegrate along with my flesh, never to be ever again and all of my memories and knowledge and experience went bye-bye forever right along with me.... TIME would be just about the most precious thing I could imagine, and I certainly would not waste a nanosecond of it trying to IMPROVE myself in anyway that did not directly benefit my maximum possible enjoyment of MY existence.

In a nutshell, I would do my best to become another Hugh Hefner. I would try to make my life one long, neverending party.

~ RS

[Angela]

RS: you've just outlined one important thing I admire about atheists: we don't require a belief in the supernatural to live a moral life. Apparently, you do! You decadent scoundrel!

Thank you for your concern for post-death spirit. I promise that if I find myself dead and wandering around without a body, I'll be flexible about going towards the light. First I would go visit Erin and have a chat with her, though.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Also, I'm not saying that anyone requires a belief in an afterlife or God or even purpose to be happy. I'm just saying that if one is being completely honest with themselves that they believe in a physical universe ONLY, then it's just plain ILLOGICAL to pursue "happiness" from non-physical sources; i.e. concern for the distant future, concern for the well-being of strangers, empathy for victims of tragedies; education and knowledge that will never have any bearing whatsoever on your physical health, wealth, pleasure, and/or comfort, etc.

If everything in the universe is physical (an interpretable premise), then "happiness", concern, empathy, education, knowledge, wealth, pleasure, comfort, etc. are all equally physical.

I'm seeing no disconnect.