I'm officially freaked out
The whole concept of subjective reality is so mind bending to me, but at it's core it makes so much sense to me.
I've always wondered why I was me, how out of 6 billion people I was the only 'me'
I really like the concept of SR and I've seen things and made things happen that people who don't believe call accidents or coincidences, but I know in my being I've created them.
I've always felt there was something not right with the world, that I knew a truth that was fundemental to my existance, but couldn't name it or properly identify it.
I have a few questions I'd like to hear opininons on.
1. If SR is real, then my children who I love dearly are just extensions of myself. I had a lot of trouble even trying to accept SR as it means my kids are not their own beings. which saddens me.
2. If SR is to be accepted, then I'm totally alone and that also makes me feel sad.
Maybe I've got SR wrong or don't understand it very well, it feels right on so many levels, but I'm not sure I 'get it' when it comes to other people and loved ones etc.
I always thought that we were all from God or the source, but we all at least were specific beings with our own collective but seperable consciousness.
SR implies that isn't true??
I have to stop now, before I manifest grey goo leaking from my ears:eek:
Like to hear your thoughts, please keep them simple as I'm overloading as it is.
I like to think SR is not so lonely. Your ego is just as "real" as mine. Just because we both have our own inside view of things doesn't mean we should conclude everyone else is not somebody. I've seen that theme show up in these posts but never felt it that way myself. It seems to me there has been a misplacement of bringing the universal one consciousness into the ego world and trying to look at objects as not me - but everything is only me in the universal sense. We are all one. Everyone else is just as much an individual as I am - where "I" is the ego seperate self that lives in an objective world. The other angle is from looking at the universe as one consciousness that each of is actually backed by and all the egos that are running around are some sort of illusion from that perspective but still something to experience as individual by definition or rises out of the duality of inner and outer boundaries that we have set our selves up to believe by incarnating. Just my quick replyonyour thread topic...
I have a similar take to wolfgang's. I feel like in subjective reality, our consciousness really represents everything. The trees, the rocks, you, me, etc. However, our thoughts and ego and what we believe is to be our identity or self is merely a projection from consciousness. Thus, in subjective reality, you are the only consciousness because you are part of that all encompassing consciousness. So when you talk to others, you are talking to yourself. There is no difference because everything is part of that one consciousness.
HOWEVER, once you start seeing other people as separate from you and think "I" am the only real person, then that thought and belief is just a projection of the real all-encompassing consciousness. It's like a paradox. Consciousness is all there is. There is no I, you, me, them. Thus, the bright side is that we are all indeed connected by this one consciousness. So even though talking to other people might be simply talking to a part of yourself (since you're that all-encompassing consciousness), you're still talking to a different part of yourself and that is what makes it interesting and fun. That's my take on it :)
I compare this reality often with the reality I experience when I have a lucid dream.
I'm aware that I'm the only "real" person in that dream, though the other characters in my dream always try to convince me that they are as real as I.
When my friends/relatives appear in my dream, I know they are not real in my dream, but they have their own life (and their own reality) outside my dream.
I know that I exist, but I cannot know whether other people exist on the same level as I, because I can only experience things through my own body (I cannot feel what another person feels).
Considering this reality as a subjective reality doesn't exclude that the others cannot have their own reality.
PS. If there exists an objective reality, it will always be impossible to "see" this reality as it is, because we experience everything through our own body senses. What we call reality is per definition only a personal (subjective) perception of reality.
When I first read Steve's post on SR I thought he was saying what you're saying above too. THat there is only one YOU, meaning you're in a Single Player or Single Ego reality. I did my own research and searching and concluded that we have to be in a multi-player or multi-ego reality. I think re-read Steve's article and he actually says the same thing, I just misunderstood the first time.
In other words, there is only one YOU at the spiritual level, but at the Ego level of human bodies there are many of us. Meaning, my body exists with my own desires and fears and beliefs, and your body exists with your desires and fears, but at the spiritual level you and I are the same spirit connected together and we (the spirit) creates this reality.
Hope that helps.
can someone please point me in the right direction, where to read steve's article on SR? i cant find it anywhere...
thank you probabilist. that was mind-boggling! some of those questions i had wondered since i was a kid, but as my poor mother couldnt really give me a satisfying answer to why/how i have this sense of 'me' and if i was born to someone else, would i still be me or would i not exist at all, and why i cant feel others being 'them', i settled into objective reality. it was nice to hear these questions again, and make some sense of it all. although, its still sinking in.. i will have to listen to it again at some point. ive never quite grasped this thing about all is one, but this has definetily made it clearer.
I know it can be a little disconcerting but you don't have to think that only you exist. The point I think SR is trying to make is that you create your reality and that nothing outside of you has ANY control whatsoever in your life. You will experience only what you expect to experience. or give attention to.
I sometimes imagine that all existence is the result of a lonely God having a Cosmic case of Multiple Personality Disorder.
There was an episode of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION where a duplicate Commander Riker is discovered stranded alone on a planet. He believes himself to be the only Riker, and both Rikers are astonished to discover they have a duplicate. The duplicate was created by a transporter malfunction after the Enterprise departed 8 years prior. The duplicate had all the memories of the original, and understandably assumed he was the one and only Riker who had been left behind.
However, living out 8 years as a castaway caused Riker #2 to develop his own unique and distinct personality since the malfunction, and nobody but the original Riker treated him as any less than a valid and separate consciousness.
My point is that although we all eminate from the same source, our unique and individual experiences change us from being the same to being genuinely separate personalities from each other. And while we are indeed all connected to each other and every other thing through the Universal Consciousness, we are at the same time as uniquely ourselves as it's possible to be. No two snowflakes are exactly alike, and no two lives can be lived exactly the same. That is your claim to individual personality in the universe, and not even God can take that away from you. Nor from your children.
Hope this helps...
I've read this thread 4 times...It took me 3 times to follow and understand and the last one just to laugh and feel good...Alone? Who sez I', alone...I found all of you wonderful people who post and discuss all the things that fascinate me...
Gosh, I am so happy...Thank you:D
If you consider the multi world theory of parallel universes, the universe will split into two copies. One with outcome heads and one with tails. So then you could each experience different outcomes. But, that begs the question. Let's say you choose heads and your child chooses tails. The universe splits, now your sitting with the child that either didn't get what they intended or a different child that also intended heads.
If you suppose we do experience separately some form of shared reality then there must be some mechanism to sort out what is experienced; heads or tails, win or lose, live or die, pain or comfort, suffering or bliss. What is this mechanism and where is it? Is it in you, is it in me? Who is the "you" that is in control of "your life"? Maybe there is a great battle of intentions, the strongest, clearest most congruent with all of reality wins by design, maybe there is a separate god consciousness that decides or maybe there is only one reality with one experiencer.
In any case I like to think only the ego desires to take control of life. Maybe the best way to improve your experience of life is to just let your life be as it is, disidentify with the ego and become one with the stillness of which and through which all is experienced. Maybe this way suffering can be overcome and life abundant.
Ok, here is now a different take on it:
Your spirit is passing through different lifes.
Each life has its purpose and some of its events are a result of your past lifes.
Yes you have in a way created these events.
For example: If you had a conflict with someone in your past life you might meet this spirit again in this life and have difficulties again.
The beauty of this age in time is that we are now able to analyse our relationships better and can resolve them so they don't have to happen again in your next life.
Here is a simple example:
In my past life I was killed by a Lion that bit me in my throat and draged me away.
In this life I was attacked by a dog when I was 11 years old - the dog bit me in my throat.
So I resolved this issue by - getting a dog. A puppy. And I studied Animal communication to overcome my fear from stranges dogs.
So yes we do create our own reality.
And you can take charge over it.
And No - Your children are only part of your physical body.
When a child is conceived a different soul enters the cells and gives it life.
Possibly even earlier.(Not sure about that)
Hope this was simple...
Peace and Harmony
I've been looking into Subjective Reality as well, and have listened to Steve's podcast on that topic a few times, trying to grasp it. What I find interesting is the amorphous description of "God", basically as someone who was lonely and wanted to create friends so He made us, and by doing the right things, eventually we will be led back to him. This is almsot exactly what I was taught growing up about the Christian God. Now going over this forum, I don't really see the same underlying beliefs of Christianity, there is much open-mindedness and acceptance here for example, but frankly, it's the same story just in more metaphysical clothing, from my perspective. It seems to boil down to us being the toys of a higher consciousness, created for its amusement.
Sometimes when I think of LOA it gives me a sense of personal power, a sense of responsibility. And I have experienced weird things that have led me to not believe in coincidence so much anymore, and it seems to me IM really does work.
When I became an atheist a few years back, part of it was because I was tired of the message from my family and Christianity that I belonged to a higher being and that I was here to please that being and if I did, I would go to heaven. I liked the idea that I wasn't going anywhere when I died, it focused me on the present moment.
Anyway, all these analogies, like it's a multi or single player game, you want to interact with all the different tv screens so you have to multiply yourself to experience them all, are very interesting and help to comprehend it much more, but again, I don't see how it's different from being one of God's creations, sent here for the explicit perpose of bringing him joy, pleasing him... basically we as humans are toys. I don't feel empowered when I think of this, but when I think of IM or LOA, I do.
And if subjective reality is real, can I not change this? :p
Annette, that was fascinating! I quoted you on another thread:
Would love to hear more about your study of animal communication.
You're starting to grasp what we're saying here, but you also seem unwilling to make the final leap, which is to think of yourself NOT as an amusing plaything for some parental Creator, but rather as the Creator himself, wearing but one of an infinite number of identities.
I do not KNOW exactly what the "God" situation is right now, but I BELIEVE that there is no separate personality that we could all point to and identify and say, "There. That person there and only that person is THE God. The Big Cheese." I believe there was at one time a singular personage, but that He became a MULTI-personage when He decided to create the Universe. Just like cells dividing.
Look at how a physical human is formed. It starts with ONE CELL, the fertilized egg. That then splits into two, then four, then eight, and so on and so forth until a complete human being is formed. How silly would it be to try to locate and isolate that original cell within a newborn baby, and then declare that that one cell is the "real" person, and all the other cells are there for the amusement of the original.
The division of the first cell into billions was necessary for the baby to grow, just as the division of the Spirit of God into countless souls is necessary for the growth of the One Universal Consciousness.
You are not a toy. You are a totally unique point of view and expression of the infinite faces of God. You don't realize this because you are mired deep within the Earth school and are working your way out of all the karma you've created across many lifetimes.
As you evolve from one lifetime to the next, you will realize more and more the true nature of your being, until, ultimately, you will no longer see yourself as a separate being from God, but rather realize that you have been God all along.
That was a great post and it helps to clarify in my mind what you're saying.
I'm basically with you when you say we are all God, the cell dividing analogy helps with that. I too am starting to think we are all the elements of creation, walking around, and we're connected because we're all parts of the whole.
I think it's hard, for me at least, to not think of an individual being when I see the word God or hear it. I guess it would be like me saying "elephant" and the first image in your mind is of a twig. This is why "Universe" seems to work for me, it takes much of that religious baggage out of the picture. I'm not sure if I'm ready to accept reincarnation, remember I was an atheist just a couple months ago, and still technically am (highly doubt there was ever a "Big Cheese"). Starting to wonder what the essence of that word is, since I used it to transcend something else, and by doing that, I seem to have transcended it as well. :confused:
Seems like you and I are kind of on the same page, it's just that question of what came first, the chicken or the egg. When I think of how insanely vast the universe is, to me it seems much bigger than the concept of a "God" as originator. Reality seems so much bigger than that, in my point of view.
Ultimately, I'd prefer to come to peace with many of these questions in THIS lifetime. I don't like the idea it will take several lifetimes for me to come to terms with this stuff. I started this "journey" of questioning my upbringing when I was around 15, here we are 15 years later and I've transcended much of the lame-ass dogma I was raised with, stopped being afraid, found some sort of peace with the more Eastern flavored philosophy... I think I'm on the right track. Even though I'm going off-track, my posts tend to be rambles. I wake up in the morning and hear myself having conversations with myself about the nature of consciousness, my mind is just rewiring itself. :D
And think subjective reality as your mind bending the universe to your will.
Also, Rocket Surgery, I like the way you think and write.
Subjective realists are lost. You think that if a car hits you, and you did not see the car, or know that it hit you, then you have not died. You think that if you did not know you died, then you have not died. Go on and believe that everything is only subjective and that there is no objective reality if you wish. Go ahead and believe that illusions are real and that your imagination is real. But you must also believe that when your imaginations are thoughts, and God is in your thoughts, then God is also real. If you do not wish to believe that any particular religion is real, then you must do your best to never hear about them.
Josh, the transcendent/immanent God duality helps me sort this out.
Without a transcendent Deity/Mind, you end up with Pantheism, and the subjective soup problems you are keying in to, I think.
With a Deity, or Mind that is both transcendent and immanent, we can say that our reality is inescapably subjective, whilst not sinking in the swamp of there being no objective reality.
With only a transcendent Deity/Mind, you get the problems of Fundamentalism.
With only an immanent Deity/Mind, you get the New Age soup pantheism problems.
With a Deity/Mind that is both transcendent and immanent, you can think with both sides of your brain, as it were.
So, I consider my position Panentheist, i.e., Deity/Mind is both transcendent and immanent.
I don't claim to be an expert on this topic, but there are a few things that I picked up from Steve's posts that I think might help you. The "pure" teachings of Jesus (which do not include everything in the Bible or taught by the churches because a lot of stuff has been added, changed and subtracted along the way) were actually given from the subjective perspective. Basically, Jesus saw the world through a subjective lens. However, the way his message is traditionally taught is through the objective lens which causes it all to get totally distorted. We naturally feel this distortion through a sense of "dissonance" where things just don't add up or make sense so many of us dismiss Jesus all together and go seeking answers in eastern philosophy, atheism etc. (This is the experience I had from the ages of about 18 -28). But if you can take a step back and actually remove your objective lens, replace it with a subjective lens and look at the pure teachings of Jesus again you will see them in a whole new way, the way they were actually intended and suddenly everything will align and make sense. So yes, it does all sound familiar because we are really talking about the same thing, but when you remove the objective lens and replace it with the subjective lens you will suddenly see it in a totally different way. From the subjective lens, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna etc. were all teaching the exact same thing! And even better, it all lines up with science and quantum physics and our own experience of life! Wow, what a relief :)
It is kind of like those picture books that came out in the 90's made up of all the really small dots. When you first looked at the picture you saw one thing. But if you looked long enough and you were able to relax your eyes without trying too hard you suddenly saw something totally different. When you tried to show a friend how to do it you both ended up frustrated. She couldn't figure out how to make it happen and thought you might be crazy or just totally making it all up. You couldn't really find the words to explain it to her so that she could have the experience for herself. All you could do is answer questions the best you could and encourage her from the sidelines to keep trying. And then suddenly she just "got it" and you were both laughing and talking about how cool it is.
Also, from the subjective perspective if you choose to create the experience that it will take you many lifetimes to work out your karma then it will. And if you choose to experience that it can all happen in this lifetime then it will. I am choosing to experience the latter.................
If you can find the time, I'd be curious as to your own history you mentioned of 18-28, like when did you start going in a different direction than non-belief.
For myself I think the major thing, is to not take this too seriously. When it was all about Hell and Satan and Judgement, that caused many sleepless nights. I actually had to open my mind to step away from that. Now I see myself at a similar spot, like I'm opening my mind again, and there are some growing pains. I've never been able to "sit still" when it comes to thinking of these big issues, I think I have found a way of seeing things that I'm comfortable with, but I'm always nudged forward.
This time I'm not so afraid of going to Hell or any of that negative stuff. I believe the Universe is much more reasonable, impartial, and "meaningless" than I did when I was a terrified Christian, and much more interesing, and mysterious, than I did when I was just beginning to learn about science and the secular viewpoint.
I have to experience it for myself, like you mentioned.
Hey, stop feeding my illusory waking ego! I'm YOU, so you're just complimenting yourself, ya big narscissist! Oww!
Nevertheless, I'm enjoying the comedian in me! :D
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