ego concept

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

An example might be getting upset over something that is trifle. You may recognize that it is trifle and decide that next time you won't react that way. But then a similar stimulus comes around and you react that way again. Consciously, you know it is stupid. Subconsciously, something is being triggered by the event that is not obvious.

I relate to your example. Is 'getting upset' a physical reaction or an emotional one? I think of the physical action as a reaction to the stimulus. When no action is taken, it has no-where to go. It is suppressed until, as you say, next time.

I experience the subconscious as images and words also. But I've noticed, mostly through meditation, that those images and words are connected to certain areas of my body.

I think everyone experiences physical sensations connected to emotions that are connected to images and words, but not all are aware of them. I feel fear down the back of my legs.

The body registers all experiences, whether we are conscious of it or not.

I think so too. I think the physical sensations become stronger in support of the feelings that were once intuition.

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Why seek a truth you believe is unfathomable? You are choosing to believe something that you cannot know is true. Why?

WOW! That is the best question EVAR!!! To be honest this question scared me a little bit...it made me a little restless...this might take a while...tuck in:

The first thing that came to mind is ... ummmm, I already said I "don't know"...but you are trying to understand why I choose to embrace and find peace in "NOT KNOWING" a truth.

...when put that way...it doesn't make sense...so I had to ask myself again, and this brought up some fear...maybe I am wrong? What is this fear? So I meditated on it.

Then I watched some videos that I like that I find inspiration in...Then, I experienced some peace for a moment and went to bed...

When I awoke, I came up with several answers for you to try on...none of them are very good...but I will do my best.

First I thought, "that's what all the teachers say, and I agree with them"...so I was just regurgitating there...that's no good.

Then I remembered a passage from "The seeker's guided" that I will paraphrase...the truth is always out in front of you just on the edge of the horizon that keeps you moving forward in your journey...still icky...

I also thought about the poem "Ithaca" by Homer...you can read it...Ithaca is an island that the heroes had to travel to...but the poem suggests that you need not rush to the end but enjoy the ride...i.e....it's about the journey and not the destination....ok...better...but not it.

These all still kinda stink, but hold on, you might the last bits...

The truth as I choose to believe can't be "known" as a concept and kept as a belief...so my belief is a concept that I use to "point" me back and remind me of an experience that I believe is as close to the truth that I have come to...

I will use words to describe the experience I had...I think you said you have had this experience too...the bottom line of the experience is that truth isn't a concept to know...the truth is the truest part of my being...or the true ME.

When I experience what I believe to be "the truth"...the universe blinks out of existence in my mind...it's all gone...it's just peace, stillness, aliveness...just pure being.

The truth is...outside time...but those are just concepts...I forget those...

so...why??? is that SO COOL and comforting?

This truth is outside of perceptions...there is no past or future...no requirements of living, no judgments, no work, no comparison, no pain, no living and dieing, no loss, no seeking, no wanting, no needs...just still restful peace...alive and aware....while I experience truth...I rest in the fact that I am complete NOW and forever...without need.

...I dig that stuff...and it helps me sleep.

That probably still is stinky, but I haven't written a book about this stuff (close with this thread!), so what the hell do I know.

I think you are projecting yourself on to me and I am reflecting your light with my darkness or else you would not be able to see your light.

We are good at reflecting each other...I remember asking the universe to send me someone to question everything I say to help me learn how to write...thanks for showing up...it's working!!!

If light needs a source then is it everlasting? If darkness (that you say doesn't exist) does not have a source, would it be everlasting.
The arguments you make in support of 'light being real and darkness not existing' are almost identical to those you use for 'love and fear'.
They are one and the same, just different sides of the coin. They are co-dependant. Fear exists as the polarity to love and darkness exists as a polarity to light. You are choosing one over the other. It's just a choice, not a reality.

Of course you are right...metaphors only go so far...then they far apart....that's the way of concepts.

Hey...there is dark matter and dark energy, so that must be what you are made of...seems like there might be more darkness in the universe than light...it's like darkness is the canvas and light is the paint, you need both to see the picture in the painting.

Ah, here's the evidence...........

You expose me...<blush>

Have fun!

Always try to have fun...I forget sometimes...thanks for the reminder.

So am I. I just want to know what yours is? Did I push a button? Kind Regards,

You pushed several buttons...very nicely done...I hoped you get some insight out the answer to the best question...if this stuff were easy to write about there would be gurus living on the street giving it away for free...

Love, feed, serve...

Yoops

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Are they natural changes through deeper understanding or are they intended changes made from education?

I have come to trust my "inner wisdom" or inner knowing more than most educational materials...I still look for wisdom from teachers as well.

Metaphorically speaking, I feel you are building your house on sand. It will be a good experience for you.

Yikes!!! I hope not...but then again, terrible loss, pain and suffering have a way of helping us awaken more so than worldly success...so either way I will reach the destination of this life, whether my house is built on sugar, sand, or rebar and bricks

Your point of view comes from separating yourself i.e 'in the universe' 'slice'. I understand that we are individuals as human beings but if we are all one, then the point of view has to come from there. If we are all one at the core, let's find the core. regards

Amen, I think I have found my core...as my experience of truth...my exercise in this life it to help others find their CORE...it's the journey to YOU!

Love, feed, serve

Yoops

[Maguru]

I've read both posts twice from beginning to end. I'm so excited. It's wonderful stuff. Hold on to your hat.

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

WOW! That is the best question EVAR!!! To be honest this question scared me a little bit...it made me a little restless...this might take a while...tuck in:

The first thing that came to mind is ... ummmm, I already said I "don't know"...but you are trying to understand why I choose to embrace and find peace in "NOT KNOWING" a truth.

...when put that way...it doesn't make sense...so I had to ask myself again, and this brought up some fear...maybe I am wrong? What is this fear? So I meditated on it.

Then I watched some videos that I like that I find inspiration in...Then, I experienced some peace for a moment and went to bed...

When I awoke, I came up with several answers for you to try on...none of them are very good...but I will do my best.

First I thought, "that's what all the teachers say, and I agree with them"...so I was just regurgitating there...that's no good.

Then I remembered a passage from "The seeker's guided" that I will paraphrase...the truth is always out in front of you just on the edge of the horizon that keeps you moving forward in your journey...still icky...

The Carrot!

I also thought about the poem "Ithaca" by Homer...you can read it...Ithaca is an island that the heroes had to travel to...but the poem suggests that you need not rush to the end but enjoy the ride...i.e....it's about the journey and not the destination....ok...better...but not it.

Put up and shut up!

These all still kinda stink, but hold on, you might the last bits...

The truth as I choose to believe can't be "known" as a concept and kept as a belief...so my belief is a concept that I use to "point" me back and remind me of an experience that I believe is as close to the truth that I have come to...

I will use words to describe the experience I had...I think you said you have had this experience too...the bottom line of the experience is that truth isn't a concept to know...the truth is the truest part of my being...or the true ME.

Yes I think we have shared the same experience but drawn different conclusions.

When I experience what I believe to be "the truth"...the universe blinks out of existence in my mind...it's all gone...it's just peace, stillness, aliveness...just pure being.

How can experiencing anything become a being? It is still you experiencing without thoughts. If this was your true being then why is not your true being on the outside? I see this as an indicator of who we can be. A glimpse of us in the future, perhaps?

The truth is...outside time...but those are just concepts...I forget those...

so...why??? is that SO COOL and comforting?

Here we go.............

This truth is outside of perceptions...there is no past or future...no requirements of living, no judgments, no work, no comparison, no pain, no living and dieing, no loss, no seeking, no wanting, no needs...just still restful peace...alive and aware....while I experience truth...I rest in the fact that I am complete NOW and forever...without need.
...I dig that stuff...and it helps me sleep.

That probably still is stinky, but I haven't written a book about this stuff (close with this thread!), so what the hell do I know.

That's what we are here to find out. Are you ready to see that what you have come to believe as false is actually true? Are we experiencing what you deem to be perceptions. Aren't they are real in the here and now?
The other side (in bold) is escape from reality and helps you sleep. I just might be your worst nightmare.

We are good at reflecting each other...I remember asking the universe to send me someone to question everything I say to help me learn how to write...thanks for showing up...it's working!!!

Oi, I am using you! Don't you know I can't have you ruining my reputation. I show up for me not you. Bugar, why do you make it so difficult for me to be ♥♥♥♥♥?

Hey...there is dark matter and dark energy, so that must be what you are made of...seems like there might be more darkness in the universe than light...it's like darkness is the canvas and light is the paint, you need both to see the picture in the painting.
You expose me...<blush>

I'm smiling now. Now you are beginning to see the metaphorical me. I'm not blushing at all with this exposure. I am very happy. I don't hold all the darkness. We all do. The only difference is "I love mine."

Always try to have fun...I forget sometimes...thanks for the reminder.

There you go again. I was being sarcastic. I have never known such a white spirit before.

You pushed several buttons...very nicely done...I hoped you get some insight out the answer to the best question...if this stuff were easy to write about there would be gurus living on the street giving it away for free...

Ma GURU already is.


There you go again ruining my reputation as I have to concur. You are pushing my humility button. You are beginning to expose my light. I redeem myself by saying, I told you I was using you.............

Thankyou.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

I have come to trust my "inner wisdom" or inner knowing more than most educational materials...I still look for wisdom from teachers as well.

Wisdom is knowledge experienced and many of these teachers have not experienced a fraction of what life has to offer.

Yikes!!! I hope not...but then again, terrible loss, pain and suffering have a way of helping us awaken more so than worldly success...so either way I will reach the destination of this life, whether my house is built on sugar, sand, or rebar and bricks

I agree but is suffering the only way to awaken?
Many are building their homes next to yours. Are you not going to tell them the foundations are shaky?

Amen, I think I have found my core...as my experience of truth...my exercise in this life it to help others find their CORE...it's the journey to YOU!

Yoops

C'mon Yoops, don't settle for a feel good feeling as a foundation for changing the world. Let's go deeper into the rabbit hole. With love.............DOH!exposed again.

[georgekk]

Originally Posted by Maguru

IMO the ego is a concept. It is useful in determining our inner (spiritual) workings that are difficult to describe. However, there have been many references to ego that infer the ego is like a separate entity inhabiting our bodies, eg. "because the ego is too proud to be put aside or managed" and "ego hates being in the present moment."
This in turn gives ego a mind of its own that is constantly at odds with self.

We only have one mind. It is all us. There is no separation. If ego thinks, we think. If ego feels, we feel. If ego believes, we believe. If ego is too proud then so are we. The ego is merely a reflection of self that we sometimes do not wish to see.

The concept of ego is to bring awareness of parts of self, e.g. behavioural patterns, thinking patterns etc.

Ego as a separate entity doesn't exist. It's just a concept to bring awareness of who we truly are being and not who we think we are being.

Yep.....

If I am hearing you correctly, it means all things natural about the person.
It is the real you...the "I am"

We all have pride, feelings of oneself and belief in our own abilities.
As often it is put into negative prospective...simply not true.

As no matter how we should be, there is no pretence. We are all proud, and whether we deny the ego as negative it...just means that we are not ready to accept the real you.

George

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by georgekk

Yep.....

If I am hearing you correctly, it means all things natural about the person.
It is the real you...the "I am"

We all have pride, feelings of oneself and belief in our own abilities.
As often it is put into negative prospective...simply not true.

As no matter how we should be, there is no pretence. We are all proud, and whether we deny the ego as negative it...just means that we are not ready to accept the real you.

George

The ego can be either positive or negative. It's just awarness of self. What is your concept of who the 'real you' is?

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I've read both posts twice from beginning to end. I'm so excited. It's wonderful stuff. Hold on to your hat.

Holding HAT!!

The Carrot!

I hope you LOVE carrots!!

Put up and shut up!

...it is building nicely here...

Yes I think we have shared the same experience but drawn different conclusions. How can experiencing anything become a being?

Whoops...that doesn't make sense...great question!

Of course experiencing something cannot become a being...either you are being or you are not...

The way I see it...the experience helps me remember what I am.

It is still you experiencing without thoughts.

Right...the thoughts sorta get in the way...when I think my thoughts are me...I lose my true self and begin to identify myself as my thoughts...the true me never changes...just my perception of who I am.

If this was your true being then why is not your true being on the outside?

In reality, there isn't an inside or an outside...but for practical purposes of discussion, my true being IS inside and outside all the time...the little version of me that does mundane things (eats and sleeps), just doesn't have constant awareness of my own deepest truth or self...the real me is always the same.

I see this as an indicator of who we can be. A glimpse of us in the future, perhaps?

Let's hope!!

That's what we are here to find out. Are you ready to see that what you have come to believe as false is actually true?

Yep...that would be cool.

Are we experiencing what you deem to be perceptions. Aren't they are real in the here and now?

No...I don't think they are.

The other side (in bold) is escape from reality and helps you sleep. I just might be your worst nightmare.

Could be...but that would mean that I would just have to transmute that fear into presence and release the energy.

Oi, I am using you! Don't you know I can't have you ruining my reputation. I show up for me not you. Bugar, why do you make it so difficult for me to be ♥♥♥♥♥?

Best line EVAR!!! So sorry to disappoint...I don't really have much of a position to defend...I just want to keep the discussion moving...I cheat!

I'm smiling now. Now you are beginning to see the metaphorical me. I'm not blushing at all with this exposure. I am very happy. I don't hold all the darkness. We all do. The only difference is "I love mine."

I love my darkness and yours as well...remember the darkness is part of the insanity which, again, makes it a perfect system.

There you go again. I was being sarcastic. I have never known such a white spirit before.

I'm not attacking or defending any position, just listening and responding...it's fun!

There you go again ruining my reputation as I have to concur. You are pushing my humility button. You are beginning to expose my light. I redeem myself by saying, I told you I was using you.............

Remember, you are not your reputation, or your life story...there...I gave you something to rail against...mad now?

I don't think we are using each other...we are enjoying a fun discussion about a topic most people that I run into day to day shy away from completely...I am so glad you showed up...and happy to know you are "using" and or enjoying what I have to say...so, thanks SO MUCH to you too.


CHEERS!

Yoops

[georgekk]

Originally Posted by Maguru

The ego can be either positive or negative. It's just awarness of self. What is your concept of who the 'real you' is?

Then tell me this.......

Is ego the curse word of the Internet?

Whilst trying to say that ego is basically the real 'us'.......many people pick up on this word and say that ego is wrong.

That we have to shun the ego to become spiritually attuned to God?

I say no.

That by saying ego is wrong, is denouncing the real 'you' and making the person something that they are not.

For example, we are told to love everyone. How the heck do we love people that we have no feelings for? (okay I am moving away from the subject).

Or perhaps not allowed to judge? We all judge, whether it be our wife or our job.

Let us face it......we all try and look proud and smart to create good impression. So why is it wromg in the eyes of the spiritualist to accept ourselves?

Providing that we do no harm to others, we cannot pretend we are something that we are not, no matter how we try.

George

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Wisdom is knowledge experienced and many of these teachers have not experienced a fraction of what life has to offer.

Fair enough...

I agree but is suffering the only way to awaken?

No...it seems to be one path to awakening...but there are other paths of course. The suffering bit just goes back to the earlier "perfect system" discussion...wherein, all paths lead to the same destination...awakening to the truth...whatever that truth is.

Many are building their homes next to yours. Are you not going to tell them the foundations are shaky?

I don't think anyone would ask, and it would be rude to tell them something they didn't ask to know...I don't think my foundations are shaking...if I did, I might seek some professional help...not tell my neighbors...I live in LA...I rarely SEE my neighbors let alone talk to them....;-).

C'mon Yoops, don't settle for a feel good feeling as a foundation for changing the world. Let's go deeper into the rabbit hole. With love.............DOH!exposed again.

I concur...it just so happens that I feel generally pretty good, as long as I keep up my practice, eat right (doh!), limit my beer/wine intake (doh! doh!), use less tobacco (doh! doh! doh!)...get plenty of rest (no doh...Im pretty good here) and exercise (little doh)...then I feel great!!!!

But of course, you can't see light in a see of white, and how can you conceive of black in a sea of black?...duality! I hope I'm am getting close to graduating to something new...duality is getting old...how about Tri-ality...might that be next?...or perhaps Unity...nah!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

Whoops...that doesn't make sense...great question!

Of course experiencing something cannot become a being...either you are being or you are not...

The way I see it...the experience helps me remember what I am.

This "I AM" is still beyond our conscious experience so you cannot know it. This "I AM" is what we are trying to find/become.

Right...the thoughts sorta get in the way...when I think my thoughts are me...I lose my true self and begin to identify myself as my thoughts...the true me never changes...just my perception of who I am.

How can you lose your true self when you don't know what it is? What you present to the world is the real you. An anthentic human being. Now the perception you hold of yourself may not be accurate but you are being the only you that you know. The ego could well be in your perceptions.

In reality, there isn't an inside or an outside...but for practical purposes of discussion, my true being IS inside and outside all the time...the little version of me that does mundane things (eats and sleeps), just doesn't have constant awareness of my own deepest truth or self...the real me is always the same.

*Let's hope!!
*Yep...that would be cool.
*No...I don't think they are.
*Could be...but that would mean that I would just have to transmute that fear into presence and release the energy.
*Best line EVAR!!! So sorry to disappoint...I don't really have much of a position to defend...I just want to keep the discussion moving...I cheat!

Not very well. Speak your truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

*I love my darkness and yours as well...remember the darkness is part of the insanity which, again, makes it a perfect system.
*I'm not attacking or defending any position, just listening and responding...it's fun!

There seems to be loss of comprehension. Just a list of points without connection, and with some contradiction, not really contributing to a discussion.

I don't think we are using each other...we are enjoying a fun discussion about a topic most people that I run into day to day shy away from completely...I am so glad you showed up...and happy to know you are "using" and or enjoying what I have to say...so, thanks SO MUCH to you too.

I am not using or enjoying what you have to say. I am using the real you, yoops, not some idea or perception of who you are but the real you in all these posts. I am using you to to see me.

Remember, you are not your reputation, or your life story...there...I gave you something to rail against...mad now?

YEP.

[Maguru]

I am still mad but I couldn't resist.

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

Fair enough...

No...it seems to be one path to awakening...but there are other paths of course. The suffering bit just goes back to the earlier "perfect system" discussion...wherein, all paths lead to the same destination...awakening to the truth...whatever that truth is.

If there are other paths, why can't we choose them?

I don't think anyone would ask, and it would be rude to tell them something they didn't ask to know...I don't think my foundations are shaking...if I did, I might seek some professional help...not tell my neighbors...I live in LA...I rarely SEE my neighbors let alone talk to them....;-).

Cop out?

I concur...it just so happens that I feel generally pretty good, as long as I keep up my practice, eat right (doh!), limit my beer/wine intake (doh! doh!), use less tobacco (doh! doh! doh!)...get plenty of rest (no doh...Im pretty good here) and exercise (little doh)...then I feel great!!!!

Which part of you is this? So you don't want to go further down the rabbit hole because you feel great?

But of course, you can't see light in a see of white, and how can you conceive of black in a sea of black?...duality! I hope I'm am getting close to graduating to something new...duality is getting old...how about Tri-ality...might that be next?...or perhaps Unity...nah!

In humanities' experience, duality is, always was and always will be. It does not age. Only perceptions of them change. To exclude one is to exclude the other. Acceptance of both as equals would naturally create unity, the one you dismissed.

I feel you dismiss me too. You dismiss my negative aspects. Why do you deny my dark side? Why are you being so nice? What are you afraid of? Does the content mean nothing to you? Is it truly just to hone your skills? Do I not know you at all? Maybe not, but one thing I know is this communication has helped me to better know myself.

Insanity is not in the darkness. Insanity is denying it.

Enjoy!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by georgekk

Then tell me this.......

Is ego the curse word of the Internet?

Yes you could put it that way, basically because.........

Whilst trying to say that ego is basically the real 'us'.......many people pick up on this word and say that ego is wrong. That by saying ego is wrong, is denouncing the real 'you' and making the person something that they are not.

.....it's saying that there is something wrong with them.

For example, we are told to love everyone. How the heck do we love people that we have no feelings for? (okay I am moving away from the subject).
Or perhaps not allowed to judge? We all judge, whether it be our wife or our job.

Judgement says more about the judge than the judged.

Let us face it......we all try and look proud and smart to create good impression. So why is it wromg in the eyes of the spiritualist to accept ourselves?

I don't know about spiritualists but to me it's about being, as opposed to trying to be. In accepting yourself as 'a trying to be' to 'make good impressions' is self awareness.

Providing that we do no harm to others, we cannot pretend we are something that we are not, no matter how we try.

George

But isn't it a form of pretending when you are trying to be smart and proud? If you are not proud and smart, what are you? A pretender? This may well be an example of the 'concept of ego' if it is true. Only you can know, and me if you will tell me. Regards

[georgekk]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes you could put it that way, basically because.........

.....it's saying that there is something wrong with them.

Judgement says more about the judge than the judged. I don't know about spiritualists but to me it's about being, as opposed to trying to be. In accepting yourself as 'a trying to be' to 'make good impressions' is self awareness.



But isn't it a form of pretending when you are trying to be smart and proud? If you are not proud and smart, what are you? A pretender? This may well be an example of the 'concept of ego' if it is true. Only you can know, and me if you will tell me. Regards

Thank you very much Maguru,

Indeed you are enlightened.

We have searched within our souls and have come up with similar answers.

Only God has told us this, that we have seen whilst others have wondered.

May God bless you.

[yoopersmith]

Hey Paula,

I'm out of town at moment...I will reply soon.

Kind Regards,

Yoops

[electrorainbow]

Originally Posted by Judge

I see ego as a tool, like thought and emotion.

These tools are for validating experience, reality, your life.

As with all tools, you pick them up to use and put them down when you no longer require them.

The only problem is that because we use them constantly and/or more than we need to, they become our default defining system to view reality.

They actually end up blocking most of what is really there.

Judge

I very much agree with you here. The ego is not me, it is a part of me yes that cannot be denied, but it is not me. I have experienced a shift in my perspective recently and it has come to my attention (through direct experience, not belief or what someone has told me) that you can in fact just watch the ego at work (and smile at it like a little child who's over excited and trying to get your attention). You can separate yourself from it and therefore how can it be 'you'? Complete identification with it may make it appear that its you, but it's really not. All it takes is one step back and that become overwhelmingly (and very joyfully) obvious! good thread this!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by electrorainbow

I very much agree with you here. The ego is not me, it is a part of me yes that cannot be denied, but it is not me. I have experienced a shift in my perspective recently and it has come to my attention (through direct experience, not belief or what someone has told me) that you can in fact just watch the ego at work (and smile at it like a little child who's over excited and trying to get your attention). You can separate yourself from it and therefore how can it be 'you'? Complete identification with it may make it appear that its you, but it's really not. All it takes is one step back and that become overwhelmingly (and very joyfully) obvious! good thread this!

I don't understand how it is a part of you that cannot be denied and yet is not you. The separation is only in your mind. I think it would be nearer the truth to say you recognized a part of yourself that you were previously unaware of. Congratulations.

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

This "I AM" is still beyond our conscious experience so you cannot know it. This "I AM" is what we are trying to find/become.

I agree that the concept of "I AM" cannot be "known" in the traditional use of the word known or know. I also believe that the "I am" feeling or experience can be "known" in a way of knowing that doesn't need words or thoughts or concepts...I am simply aware that I am.

I don't think I need to find it the "I am" or become the "I am"...I am already it...

How can you lose your true self when you don't know what it is?

I don't lose it...It's more like a forgetting or a focusing on tasks, thoughts and forms...I "know" (again words fail here) what it is...it's me...I AM.

What you present to the world is the real you. An anthentic human being.

Hmmm....again words fail this idea...I suppose the real total me...ego and all is what I present to the world, so I will go with you that on that.

Now the perception you hold of yourself may not be accurate but you are being the only you that you know. The ego could well be in your perceptions.

Sure, ok my sense of self is locked into the NOW and even though I am not always conscious of my whole self (I.E. there are still unconscious bits laying in the dark recesses of my past...)...I am being the "only me that I know"...who of course is always subject to change and growth. The ego might be in my perceptions...like who I perceive myself to be....or the me I think I am.

Not very well. Speak your truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
There seems to be loss of comprehension. Just a list of points without connection, and with some contradiction, not really contributing to a discussion.

Speaking my truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth would just be silence. Sorry about the contradictions...words fail...and I do was well.

I am still attempting comprehension and I want to keep talking...this is my best.

I did a blog post about my belief system if you want to check it out...I think it comes close to what I truly believe...but its kinda old, I might need to update it.

The Meaning of Life: YooperSmith Belief System | YooperSmith.com

I am not using or enjoying what you have to say. I am using the real you, yoops, not some idea or perception of who you are but the real you in all these posts. I am using you to to see me.

Glad to be your mirror

YEP.

w00t! I thought you were going to say it would take more to make you angry...I gave you something that you asked me for...I did that to promote your reputation as a ♥♥♥♥♥...have fun with that <wink>


Kind Regards,

Yoops

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I am still mad but I couldn't resist. If there are other paths, why can't we choose them?

We can choose the other paths...did I say, we could choose the other paths?...If I did, I was wrong.

Cop out?

Totally a cop out...and I was trying to be funny (ick!). Fundamentally you think that my assertion that "I am consciousness" is a less solid belief foundation than thinking that "I am form" (i.e. a body, a human being, made of matter...et al).

Ok...well of course, I don't KNOW in a way that can be proved objectively, so I concede the point up front...sure this might be a shaking foundation...even more shaky than thinking that I am form.

Here is why I choose consciousness rather than form.

Form is temporary, and changes. Bodies die...planets go cold...stars go NOVA...all matter is energy and nothing is destroyed...but all forms are in a constant state of flux....that sounds shaky.

Consciousness is un-manifest (I hope!)...therefore without FORM or energy and therefore does not change at all...it just IS...

...aware...alive...consciousness...

...since I believe that there is only ONE consciousness...and I am conscious...I must be part of the whole of consciousness.

This to me seems less shaky than being form.

Which part of you is this? So you don't want to go further down the rabbit hole because you feel great?

Not sure which part...I guess the part that still believes I am in a body and really wants to lose weight and have more fun. <humor>

Sorry, I definitely want to live down the rabbit hole...I eat the red pill for breakfast everyday!<humor...but really I want to go to the bottom of the rabbit hole!>

I don't feel great, if I did, that would be better though....I was attempting sarcasm...didn't work.

In humanities' experience, duality is, always was and always will be. It does not age. Only perceptions of them change. To exclude one is to exclude the other. Acceptance of both as equals would naturally create unity, the one you dismissed.

Wow I screwed that one up...I will have to type <sarcastic remark>...

Yeah...I failed to use sarcasm to make your point above....humanity's experience is perceived through duality...I was attempting sarcasm again with the "nah" on unity...text is hard to get sarcasm through...sorry about that...

...I CONCUR!!! with the statement above.

I feel you dismiss me too. You dismiss my negative aspects. Why do you deny my dark side? Why are you being so nice? What are you afraid of? Does the content mean nothing to you? Is it truly just to hone your skills? Do I not know you at all? Maybe not, but one thing I know is this communication has helped me to better know myself.

Sorry...didn't mean to dismiss you...just lame attempts at humor. I don't deny your dark side...we all have a dark side...I love yours and mine...

...NICE is my preferred mode...it works for me...I guess I need work embracing my "dark side".

...I'm not sure what I am afraid of...not the biggies...I don't fear death...perhaps I fear success (maybe?), or losing my wife...again I don't think about what I am afraid of that much....

...oh...I am afraid of ever being trapped and tortured...that would suck...

The content is secondary in my mind to the goal of helping me (and you) growth into more conscious people.

Honing the skills is secondary to the above goal as well.

You know some of me...there's that word KNOW again. <grin>

I feel the same way about this communication...you are very adept at making me think, consider and express my beliefs...that helps me and you I guess as well.

Insanity is not in the darkness. Insanity is denying it.

Well said...I am all for acceptance over denial...why deny or reject what IS...right?...there is darkness...let's accept it.

CHEERS!

Yoops

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

I agree that the concept of "I AM" cannot be "known" in the traditional use of the word known or know. I also believe that the "I am" feeling or experience can be "known" in a way of knowing that doesn't need words or thoughts or concepts...

I am not disputing the possibility of the "I am', I am disputing your concept of "I am.' I believe your concept of 'I am' renders it impossible to be known in the traditional sense of experiencing it.

I am simply aware that I am. I don't think I need to find it the "I am" or become the "I am"...I am already it...

Yoops, we can't get past this belief. If you think this is true then there is nothing more for you to do.

Sure, ok my sense of self is locked into the NOW and even though I am not always conscious of my whole self (I.E. there are still unconscious bits laying in the dark recesses of my past...)...I am being the "only me that I know"...who of course is always subject to change and growth. The ego might be in my perceptions...like who I perceive myself to be....or the me I think I am.

This is not the great "I am". This is the yoops you know but you know this isn't the real you. The real you is the one you cannot know. So does that make sense? I think what you are really saying here is that there are two of you.
Your focus is on the great "I am" that you cannot know and my focus is on the little "I am" that you do know parts of but................. you cannot be the great I am until the little I am grows up.

Speaking my truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth would just be silence. Sorry about the contradictions...words fail...and I do was well.

Yes, words do fail all the time but you and I are attempting to have them succeed. I believe communication is the greatest tool we possess. The written word is the most powerful of all. The pen is mightier than the sword.

...this is my best.

Ah, a little bit of little yoops. Do you think you can do better?

Glad to be your mirror

Did I say that? Yikes, not what I meant if I did.

w00t! I thought you were going to say it would take more to make you angry...I gave you something that you asked me for...I did that to promote your reputation as a ♥♥♥♥♥...have fun with that <wink>

Oh, you mean the ♥♥♥♥♥ mirror. Ok, I'll give you that one.

Now, that's funny.

My ♥♥♥♥♥ always does the unexpected

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

Here is why I choose consciousness rather than form.

Form is temporary, and changes. Bodies die...planets go cold...stars go NOVA...all matter is energy and nothing is destroyed...but all forms are in a constant state of flux....that sounds shaky.

Consciousness is un-manifest (I hope!)...therefore without FORM or energy and therefore does not change at all...it just IS...

ok, so consciousness 'just is' when unmanifested and cannot change at all. It is without form and even without energy.

aware...alive...consciousness

...since I believe that there is only ONE consciousness...and I am conscious...I must be part of the whole of consciousness.

This to me seems less shaky than being form....

So are you without form and energy right now? If you do have form and energy, then consciousness has changed and you are contradicting yourself.

Sorry, I definitely want to live down the rabbit hole...I eat the red pill for breakfast everyday!<humor...but really I want to go to the bottom of the rabbit hole!>

I don't feel great, if I did, that would be better though....I was attempting sarcasm...didn't work.

Wow I screwed that one up...I will have to type <sarcastic remark>...

Yeah...I failed to use sarcasm to make your point above....humanity's experience is perceived through duality...I was attempting sarcasm again with the "nah" on unity...text is hard to get sarcasm through...sorry about that...

Why do you attempt to be sarcastic? You either are or you aren't. This is the opening to the rabbit hole.

Sorry...didn't mean to dismiss you...just lame attempts at humor. I don't deny your dark side...we all have a dark side...I love yours and mine...

...NICE is my preferred mode...it works for me...I guess I need work embracing my "dark side".

...I'm not sure what I am afraid of...not the biggies...I don't fear death...perhaps I fear success (maybe?), or losing my wife...again I don't think about what I am afraid of that much....

Isn't that enough?

The content is secondary in my mind to the goal of helping me (and you) growth into more conscious people.

Honing the skills is secondary to the above goal as well.

You know some of me...there's that word KNOW again. <grin>

I feel the same way about this communication...you are very adept at making me think, consider and express my beliefs...that helps me and you I guess as well.

I am attempting to push your negative buttons but you resist with sarcasm and humour. But you are correct in that I am getting to know you a little better. I hope you get to know yourself better too. I'm sure we will both like you. Down the rabbit hole.........What is underneath the sarcasm and wit?

Well said...I am all for acceptance over denial...why deny or reject what IS...right?...there is darkness...let's accept it.

Now the question is can you put your money where your mouth is?

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I am not disputing the possibility of the "I am', I am disputing your concept of "I am.' I believe your concept of 'I am' renders it impossible to be known in the traditional sense of experiencing it.

I think I understand maybe...because I say "I can't really KNOW anything"

When I say that...I do mean "KNOW" in the traditional sense of the word...and my reason is that all of our knowledge is filtered through our perceptions and colored by our dreams of the past, our unconscious fears and our desires conscious and unconscious...all these factors make the picture of what we call "reality" Subjective instead of objective...so we can't objectively prove much of anything...therefore knowledge in it's traditional meaning isn't really obtainable at all.

...when I say...I KNOW I AM...I guess I really don't KNOW that either, so I can amend it to mean...I am pretty sure I exist...that is all I am trying to get to...just a fairly certain belief that I exist...nothing more deep than that.

Yoops, we can't get past this belief. If you think this is true then there is nothing more for you to do.

RIGHT!!! EXACTLY...I'm DONE...but I'm still here...so I might as well enjoy the ride. I am working on shrinking my waist...it has gotten far too wide to be healthy.

...but as for the big search...right, I think I am mostly done...not perfect or going to blink out of existence, I just think that the rest of this life will just keep getting more fun as I learn how to keep making my life better.

This is not the great "I am". This is the yoops you know but you know this isn't the real you. The real you is the one you cannot know. So does that make sense? I think what you are really saying here is that there are two of you.

Exactly...and that's impossible...there is really only one me...so one is a made up concept and one is real? Which one am I? hmmmm

Yes, words do fail all the time but you and I are attempting to have them succeed. I believe communication is the greatest tool we possess. The written word is the most powerful of all. The pen is mightier than the sword.

Thanks! It's difficult to express these ideas...I hope some communication is happening.

Ah, a little bit of little yoops. Do you think you can do better?

Perhaps...with practice

Now, that's funny. My ♥♥♥♥♥ always does the unexpected

Sweet! I love the unexpected...Glad I got you to the funny...

CHEERS!

Yoops

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

ok, so consciousness 'just is' when unmanifested and cannot change at all. It is without form and even without energy.

That's what I think.

So are you without form and energy right now? If you do have form and energy, then consciousness has changed and you are contradicting yourself. Why do you attempt to be sarcastic? You either are or you aren't. This is the opening to the rabbit hole.

I AM conscious...I HAVE Form...form is like possessions...issness is state of being. I am consciousness...I HAVE everything else...like a body and stuff and a job, and roles...yada yada..

I meant that I was trying to be sarcastic...and you missed it (?) and therefore my "attempt" at sarcasm failed...Not everything I say is meant to be sarcastic...just the bad jokes

Nice opening...Where's Morpheus?

I said all this:

"Sorry...didn't mean to dismiss you...just lame attempts at humor. I don't deny your dark side...we all have a dark side...I love yours and mine...

...NICE is my preferred mode...it works for me...I guess I need work embracing my "dark side".

...I'm not sure what I am afraid of...not the biggies...I don't fear death...perhaps I fear success (maybe?), or losing my wife...again I don't think about what I am afraid of that much...."

You said

Isn't that enough?

Isn't What enough...enough to be afraid of...I don't presume to be totally without fear...but I have come some way to facing quiet a few...I'm sure there is more fear to come...all part of the earth gig...

I am attempting to push your negative buttons but you resist with sarcasm and humour. But you are correct in that I am getting to know you a little better. I hope you get to know yourself better too. I'm sure we will both like you. Down the rabbit hole.........What is underneath the sarcasm and wit?

Yeah...I get you trying to get a rise out of me...would you prefer me to just shoot from the hip more and not really consider your feelings before I respond...I tried that in the beginning and I ended up saying I'm sorry

You really can't push my buttons much...but you can make me think, the only button you could push that would make me a little sad would be the "tah tah" button...

I don't know what's under the sarcasm and wit...fear, loathing, childhood stuff, repressed memories...all manner of ickiness....and LOVE, light, compassion...hmmm I might be a human being...or just BEING HUMAN...not sure really.

Now the question is can you put your money where your mouth is?

Where is my mouth and how much is this going to cost??? I guess we will find the proof in the pudding.


CHEERS!

Yoops

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

I think I understand maybe...because I say "I can't really KNOW anything"

When I say that...I do mean "KNOW" in the traditional sense of the word...and my reason is that all of our knowledge is filtered through our perceptions and colored by our dreams of the past, our unconscious fears and our desires conscious and unconscious...all these factors make the picture of what we call "reality" Subjective instead of objective...so we can't objectively prove much of anything...therefore knowledge in it's traditional meaning isn't really obtainable at all.

Objective knowledge of self is available.

You complicate things so much. It doesn't matter what you think, believe or feel. The person inside your body is real. The person that does all those things is real. Your world view of reality isn't in question. The question is who are you right now? Who is the whole person inside of your body?

RIGHT!!! EXACTLY...I'm DONE

Exactly...and that's impossible...there is really only one me...so one is a made up concept and one is real? Which one am I? hmmmm
Yoops

You don't know either, yoops and I had high hopes for you.

[Ralph]

The subject seems challenging enough for me to come up with my own point of view.

What is ego? Is it separate from us?


Ego is the sum of all the conditioning, patterns, memories and wounds created by your mind. (Eckhart Tolle goes as far as to say that it's created by collective human pain, I neither agree nor disagree with this - I just don't know either way.) Ego is a vital part of my mind, and therefore it is not me. It is one of my tools. It contains my whole life story, the temporary identity, the concept of me as a person. It also contains some less useless stuff like deriving sense of self from material possessions and thought forms. Ego is a part of mind, and therefore it is separate from who I really am. It's quite useful, but very pesky if not used sporadically.

Ralph

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Objective knowledge of self is available.

You are going to need to back that up...because I don't understand how that is possible.

You complicate things so much. It doesn't matter what you think, believe or feel. The person inside your body is real. The person that does all those things is real. Your world view of reality isn't in question. The question is who are you right now?

I think I am consciousness being human...who do YOU think I am?

Who is the whole person inside of your body?

Being + Human = ME. Consciousness...expressing into form.

You don't know either, yoops and I had high hopes for you.

I'm cool with not knowing...so sorry to dash those hopes


CHEERS!

Yoops

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I relate to your example. Is 'getting upset' a physical reaction or an emotional one? I think of the physical action as a reaction to the stimulus. When no action is taken, it has no-where to go. It is suppressed until, as you say, next time.

IMO, this is generally why resistance does not work when it comes to change. A person gets angry, but they don't want to react to the anger, so they suppress (resist) the reaction. The feeling gets stored in the body as tension. And it was the tension that already existed there that caused the original physical reaction.

Unless the tension gets released, the reaction continues to happen no matter what the person wants (wills) to do. This is what yoga and kung fu are all about, really. The separation of mind and body causes tension. Bringing the mind and body back together through breath and movement eliminates the tension.

I think that getting upset is a physical response (fight or flight) that we interpret into emotion and then reason post hoc what the cause of the emotion is. We assume it is tied to something in the recent past or in the present environment. As in the the above example, the person will point to an outside stimulus (a person, situation, etc.) as the cause of the emotion. It is actually tension in the body. There are very few situations in modern times where these physical reactions are necessary...

I think everyone experiences physical sensations connected to emotions that are connected to images and words, but not all are aware of them. I feel fear down the back of my legs.

I think this complex of sensation, emotion, images and words is the ego. And looking at the ego as this process rather than as a thing is a step in the right direction in terms of awareness.

From a metaphorical point of view, your legs are your physical stability on the planet, therefore they are your sense of security in the world. When you fell that your security is threatened, you feel fear in the legs.

What I find really interesting about this stuff is if you change the way you stand (for example), the fear will dissipate. Like if you separate your feet a bit wider than shoulders width apart and slightly bend the knees, you no longer will feel fear.

Another example: I was having an argument with my girlfriend one time and I noticed she had curled up into the fetal position. Even though I wasn't physically hurting her, she had taken a very protective position. This reflected her state of mind. I was standing next to the bed, which also reflected my state of mind; some kind of authority over her. I sat down and I asked her to sit up and face me. After she did that, our argument changed its tone completely. Now we were equals and I was not trying to hurt her.

I think so too. I think the physical sensations become stronger in support of the feelings that were once intuition.

The body is like a filter or lens through which we see the world, isn't it? And if that lens gets dirty or the filter gets clogged up, so does our perception of the world.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Ralph

The subject seems challenging enough for me to come up with my own point of view.

What is ego? Is it separate from us?


Ego is the sum of all the conditioning, patterns, memories and wounds created by your mind. (Eckhart Tolle goes as far as to say that it's created by collective human pain, I neither agree nor disagree with this - I just don't know either way.)

I think it's better to use your own experiences, rather someone else's philosophy, so have you personal experience of your ego being the sum of all you have described? Have you experienced your own ego at all?

Ego is a vital part of my mind, and therefore it is not me. It is one of my tools. It contains my whole life story, the temporary identity, the concept of me as a person. It also contains some less useless stuff like deriving sense of self from material possessions and thought forms. Ego is a part of mind, and therefore it is separate from who I really am. It's quite useful, but very pesky if not used sporadically.

Ralph

Are you simply saying "everything I have become(ego) is not real" and "everything I am not, is real (who you really are)?" It doesn't make sense to me unless you are certain of another self existing somewhere, some place. In which case the concept of ego is of no use at all. The concept of ego is to become aware of the person we have become. It can only exist in human traits. Isn't the real you not human by your definition?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

You are going to need to back that up...because I don't understand how that is possible.

It's easy, yoops. The truth! Be honest with yourself. See who you have become? The greatest 'I am' is when you know 'I am'. I know who "I am" because I created "I am" consciously. My journey revealed many aspects of self that I had created unconsciously. These traits were 'ego'. I changed them consciously, in full awareness of what I was doing and why I was doing.

I was hoping through collaboration with you that we would uncover the creator, through the absolute knowledge of the created. The only absolute available is life itself. I now have experience of being the created and of being the creator of myself.

I think I am consciousness being human...who do YOU think I am?

Well you did ask! I think you are a human being playing it safe as Mr. boring nice guy, saying things you think will please others and making it very difficult for anyone to tell you the truth, except me.

This is the ♥♥♥♥♥ in me that I consciously created in full awareness of who I am being. The ♥♥♥♥♥ tells the harsh truth and the I tell the nice truth. They both come from the same place which is me, Paula the person.

On the other hand, you are pretending to be Mr nice guy that your ego created.

Being + Human = ME. Consciousness...expressing into form.

I'm cool with not knowing...so sorry to dash those hopes

Yoops, do me a favour and read the following paragraphs as a whole. Don't address them point by point as they are making one point as a whole.

I read over some of your earlier posts in this thread and also some of your blogs and you constantly deny yourself by the very fact of stating and re-stating this concept of another self. The self that you call consciousness.

On the other hand whilst denying your human self, you constantly refer to yourself....... A line from a comedy sketch: "Enough about me. Let's talk about you. What do you think about me?" Our communication has been all about you. I'm making no judgements here. I have nothing to gain except possibly an end to this circular communication.

However, this is who you are truly being underneath the pretense of Mr. nice guy. It is all there in your work. The truth of your human-being. Is it cool not knowing this?

I do understand that without experience of your own ego, knowledge of ego means nothing. I had hoped you would recognize that you are experiencing your ego but your concept of knowledge prevents you from seeing it.

The ego concept isn't designed to find the 'god' within, it's designed to find you."

That's the point and I have used the real you to illustrate this point to you many times and you have missed it. Who am I?

[Ralph]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I think it's better to use your own experiences, rather someone else's philosophy, so have you personal experience of your ego being the sum of all you have described? Have you experienced your own ego at all?

How could I not have personal experience with my own ego? Do I post from the other world, as a pure stream of consciousness? My name, Ralph, is a part of my ego and there you have some of my personal experience right in front of you.

Just because I mention Eckhart in my post doesn't mean that the post is a mindless rehash of his ideas. I just mentioned it so that you can consider that point of view for yourself, even though I'm not convinced to it.

Originally Posted by Maguru

Are you simply saying "everything I have become(ego) is not real" and "everything I am not, is real (who you really are)?" It doesn't make sense to me unless you are certain of another self existing somewhere, some place.

It doesn't make sense to me too so that's probably not what i meant.

Ego is a mind-made identity. Its created of memories and thought forms. It's ultimately an illusion that me and others perceive by their minds. The true me is a consciousness that perceives it.