When we die?

[freddy]

I was talking to a freind about what happens when you die. And after debating what he believes and I believe. I came to the conclusion. There is no way to prove or disprove any idea that someone may present.. If I go with my idea that we reincarnate and come back to learn more lessons. How can it be proven? I don't remember any past lifes that I might have had. Yet it makes no scense to me that when we die thats it. Anyone care to give me some opinions and what you have come to understand.

[mark7]

The only things i could say to this are:
all of the so called holy books claim this to be true, the wording may be slightly different, but the concept/ belief is basically the same,

there are hundreds of thousands of people out there that claim to have the ability to contact spirits/ souls, of people that have passed over to another realm, yes some of these will be fakes, but there are many that are capable of relaying information to inquiring people, that they just could not have possibly have known!, so this information must be gleaned from somewhere.

many people capable of astral travel report being in contact with these beings/ spirits /souls at sometime in there travels.

my own mother claims to have seen and spoken to her father and mother

my sister claims to have spoken to her grandmother

i very much doubt they are lying, there not that type of people.

i believe, there are mechanisms in place to stop us unrefrutably proving that we go on and on, as if it were to be proved without a shadow of a doubt, people would simply go through the motions of doing the right thing in order to progress to higher levels, once at these higher levels, they would then show there true colors and reek havoc within the universe or where ever we all end up lol, they would be using the system devisivly,

and i believe there are measures in place to stop us from doing this, only the people who have truelly acheived higher consciousness will steadily progress higher and be given more abilities, the others who are taking a while to get it, will simply keep reincarnating until they do get it

obviously to you this may all seem like theory, but you tend to develope a gut feeling about things, you cant actually prove it, but you just sort of know it, this bit is hard to explain

this probably doesnt help you, but it can give you a few ways of anyalising it for your self or trying to rationalise it in your own mind.

[Mato Kinze]

Sorry for the long post, but you ask a simple question with a not simple answer.

I began looking at this question pretty heavily when I was in High School. That's when I had my first Physics class. In this class, the first thing you learn is that matter is neither created nor destroyed. It simply changes form.

I began to believe that the same was true of people and their "consciousness" or experience of "self". What that experience became after what we call "death" was anyone's guess. One theory was just as good as another. I didn't play favorites, but I had a certain affinity for the idea of reincarnation. And that held me over pretty well into my thirties.

Later, when I began the Path I'm on now, I began to interact directly with Spirit and eventually with those that had "died".

Now, I have a much more defined idea of what happens after your body ceases to function.

For me to describe what happens after death, I have to first describe how I've come to see the relationship between the physical body and the energy body (aka spirit/soul) we all have. The physical body is like a sponge that soaks up and stores energy/spirit in all parts of itself.

This sponge constantly loses and replaces this energy.

When the body "dies" or ceases to function, the energy leaves it en masse and moves on to the next experience in the same way a drop of water may be thrown back into the sea. For a small portion of time, the drop of water maintains its own integrity as its own drop of water. But eventually, the individual molecules of that drop disperse and combine with other molecules until the original "drop" is non-existent but rather has become a truly integral part of the ocean, indistiguishable from any other part and in fact "one".

And then some of that ocean water evaporates and turns into moisture that is sucked up into a cloud that combines with other molecules of water that were sucked up until enough of them come together to be too heavy for the cloud to bear at which point one single and individual drop of water falls back to earth - new and yet not. Some aspect of the first drop that was thrown back into the ocean is in the new drop but the new drop is distinct and separate on its own.

This is overly simplified of course, and there are a lot of things that go into determining when/how long that individual spirit lasts as an individual. For instance, even talking in terms of "time" is a mistake because in the other experience, time does not exist as we perceive it.

But that is, in a very small nutshell, what I have come to understand about "death".

[Parthon]

I love the water analogy Mato. It's very beautiful and reflects my ponderings on the subject. I'll have to borrow it.

freddy: You are spot on! There's no way to prove or disprove any of the ideas surrounding life and death. We can make up stories about the way we think it is, but in the end, we don't really know for sure. The best we can do is have our stories mirror reality, right?

Perhaps, but I think there can be more. The question about life and death is a deep one, with lots of answers, and even more questions. The tricky part though, is how does it apply to you. How does your views on what life is affect the way you live you life? Does it improve it, or worsen it? Do you feel alive and full of vitality, or dead and scared?

Put a bunch of philosophers, gurus, mystics and scientists in a room and they'll argue about life until the end of it. The only important thing about it though, is if it contributes to who you are as a human being: An aware individual that has the power to positively alter reality.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by freddy

I came to the conclusion. There is no way to prove or disprove any idea that someone may present.. .... How can it be proven?

VIVA LA AGNOSTICISM!

What happens when you die? Why, you stop living! Such is life: it goes, and then it stops.

Hmm... I'm supposed to be attending a funeral on Monday; I'm supposed to be solemn and mournful, aren't I? Oops.

[Pequod]

@ Mato

Great analogy of the water!

Do you believe that beyond thought, emotion and the physical body, there is something constituting "I" there survives somehow as seperate entity, or not?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Pequod

@ Mato

Great analogy of the water!

Do you believe that beyond thought, emotion and the physical body, there is something constituting "I" there survives somehow as seperate entity, or not?

Yes. Absolutely. For a time at least. I suspect that there are other experiences even after the next experience and I also suspect that the further you get from this experience, the less "I" there is.

It's the whole water blending into water thing. The more you learn and grow, the less need there is for separation or distinction.

[Parthon]

Another way to look at the question is to look at what will happen to the world when you die. One day you will be gone, and the people around you will have to move on. What kind of impact will you have wanted to make to the world? Do you want your tombstone to say "Managed to live without mishap until 99", or something more like "His contribution to others will live in the hearts of people for centuries."

You could be anything after death, but who you were in life will still resonate and exist, even though you may not still be around.

[Judge]

The sooner you realise that you are God, then the easier it will be to accept your current reality.

1. I am God
2. I am a part of God
3. I have no connection to God.

Pick one.....live your life.

Judge

PS I should advise that the word 'god' can be substituted for source/consciousness/energy/being...etc.

[amixa]

i definitely feel the same way with what mato has said.

listen to your intuition.. what does it tell you?
i was raised a catholic but since i was little i found it odd to think that we are born.. go through life and then get sent to either heaven or hell.
my intuition told me when i was little that we are reincarnated until we learn everything we need.. and although i forgot that for a while i have come back to that very place again.

it depends how you view what makes up yourself. mato spoke about the physical aspect of your body in terms of what happens to you after you die.. but what about the non physical? (i know he was referring to both but the example was within the physical realm)

how can that be proven? well there is an opposite for everything yes? so there is matter vs. dark matter. physical vs. ether. i came to fully believing after i went to a reiki appointment and after she explained the different layers to ourselves (beyond the physical -- ie your electromagnetic field or 'soul' being 3 feet wide in diametre etc) and experienced the reiki session i was certain of my belief.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Yes. Absolutely. For a time at least. I suspect that there are other experiences even after the next experience and I also suspect that the further you get from this experience, the less "I" there is.

It's the whole water blending into water thing. The more you learn and grow, the less need there is for separation or distinction.

This sounds very plausible. Your view seems to be in tune with Yogananda (from the Autobiography). Are you familiar with his writings? (I know you come from a shamanic tradition)

[frajilthunder]

It's not proof, but Dr Ian Stevenson collected a lot of evidence for reincarnation. He found accounts of children begging their parents to go back to the community they lived in their past life, and once there identified their former families and had info they had no overt way of knowing. He also found cases where children had birthmarks that corresponded to the fatal wounds of the person they claimed to be reincarnated from.

[cordis]

A very interesting discussion, with some different perspectives on the experience called life.

I recently was sent a link to a "Sun Rise Production Studio" movie, titled "The Unity of Spirit and Matter" run time is a little over 30 minutes. It discusses the seeming recent convergence of science and spirituality

As I found it to be incredibly well done, suggesting answers to some age old questions. It is also closed captioned for those with a hearing difficulty.

Anyone interested in watching it can view it here; Unity of Spirit and Matter

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Pequod

This sounds very plausible. Your view seems to be in tune with Yogananda (from the Autobiography). Are you familiar with his writings? (I know you come from a shamanic tradition)

Sorry, no. I've never heard of this author. I'll look into it further though. Thanks.

[Groundless]

That which is not born can not die. Well, there is another unprovable belief.

If you focus on this moment continuously you will experience some interesting revelations over time. They may relate to this dicussion. At least it did for me.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Sorry, no. I've never heard of this author. I'll look into it further though. Thanks.

You can find the text online here:
Autobiography of a Yogi

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Pequod

You can find the text online here:
Autobiography of a Yogi

Interesting. I only did a quick scan, but definitely a lot of Truth in there.

I find an amazing amount of similarity between the Warrior traditions of many indigenous peoples and that of Hinduism and Buddhism.

[HighGrace]

Remember the lava lamps? This lump of goo break from the mother-goo and floats up into the light, swirls about for a while and then sinks into oblivion again.

It COULD be like that, because nobody has returned to tell the tale. On the other hand, we could just evolve upwards into something really neat and cool...or go back to being grasshoppers?

I wrote a post on this not too long ago: What we fear the most — Face to the Sun

But what I feel most days is not fear but curiosity.

Let me know what you find out.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by HighGrace

It COULD be like that, because nobody has returned to tell the tale.

Not to pick nits, but acutally people "come back" all the time and tell the tale. They just haven't to you....yet.

[yoopersmith]

You are right...you can't prove it one way or the other...

...that gives me the oportunity to choose what I want to believe.

I like the idea that we are all souls in Earth School. Earth School is like a Master's Program or a Phd program that takes about 120-150 lives or so...

This introduces some interesting questions and thoughts for me...such as:

1. If our soul is in school to learn experiences...it must continue and remember the lessons or what's the point?

So, even though I think we are all one...our souls have personalities and goals and memories that continue after earth death(s).

Our little selves on earth remember our past lives better right after birth, and slowly forget what that was all about.

2. Who chooses the classes? My soul? Some advisor(?)...hmmm?

Not sure...I guess I work with an advisor between lifes and look at the big "plan" for my Earth program and figure it out what to do in each life. It would also depend on what experiences and lessons were or were not completed in each life...you might be working on something you were supposed complete a hundred lifetimes ago...that would probably be math or me...

Anywho, I like the school metaphor for now...its fun.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by freddy

I was talking to a freind about what happens when you die. And after debating what he believes and I believe. I came to the conclusion. There is no way to prove or disprove any idea that someone may present.. If I go with my idea that we reincarnate and come back to learn more lessons. How can it be proven? I don't remember any past lifes that I might have had. Yet it makes no scense to me that when we die thats it. Anyone care to give me some opinions and what you have come to understand.

Many concepts of death have been devised to assuage our fear. We all know we are going to die. We have no control over it. I am afraid and not afraid to admit it. The only consolation I can give myself is the knowledge that many have gone before me and I shall experience the same.

In a strange way I feel I am dishonouring my parents and my sister, who have passed, by being afraid. What are we so afraid of that we have to come up with all these unprovable concepts that are of no practical help? They just make you feel better. Fair enough I suppose.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Judge

The sooner you realise that you are God, then the easier it will be to accept your current reality.

I assume you mean the current reality is that 'we die'?

1. I am God
2. I am a part of God
3. I have no connection to God.

Pick one.....live your life.

Judge

PS I should advise that the word 'god' can be substituted for source/consciousness/energy/being...etc.

I wondered, if God exists, why would he create death as part of the human experience? The only logical answer I could think of was "to give value to the life of human-beings." Well, if there is a god, I've got news for you. It ain't working. It appears to be giving more value to the dead, the after-life, previous lives and any other distraction there is from living this one life that we know of for sure.

Not a feel good concept, I know, so I concieved of another concept to make me feel better. We do only have one life as this person but that life is eternal. I could not put it more poeticly than Mato Kinze. Well worth another quote.

When the body "dies" or ceases to function, the energy leaves it en masse and moves on to the next experience in the same way a drop of water may be thrown back into the sea. For a small portion of time, the drop of water maintains its own integrity as its own drop of water. But eventually, the individual molecules of that drop disperse and combine with other molecules until the original "drop" is non-existent but rather has become a truly integral part of the ocean, indistiguishable from any other part and in fact "one".

And then some of that ocean water evaporates and turns into moisture that is sucked up into a cloud that combines with other molecules of water that were sucked up until enough of them come together to be too heavy for the cloud to bear at which point one single and individual drop of water falls back to earth - new and yet not. Some aspect of the first drop that was thrown back into the ocean is in the new drop but the new drop is distinct and separate on its own.

Life to me is a never-ending cycle, up until now anyway. Ahhh, I feel much better now.

[Journey]

Freddy,
I have read 2 books from Michael Newton 1) Journey of Souls and 2) Destiny of Souls that have changed the way I perceive the dying process. Mr. Newton does life between
life (LBL) regression using hypnosis. It is a pretty amazing process that is described in the books. If you read either, I recommend you read Journey of Souls first. Only because it is the the more basic of the two. Much of what has been stated in the previous posts are contained in the text, some is not but may just be semantics?? My small mind is not able to comprehend much of what exists outside of this human experience, so semantics for all of us begin to play a much greater role than I previously imagined. Case in point - ask someone what being spiritual means to them?

Another source of information relating to this topic is a woman in Florida named Sally Baldwin. She and husband Steve started a foundation called the Dying to Live Again Foundation. Think about it, what a name!!! website is Home of Dying to Live Again

Above all "enjoy the journey" and listen to your heart as you are currently doing and accept into your life what feels good in your heart, believe it, practice it and share it. Help others grow with your questions and journey.

Thanks

[jasper666]

I think the question itself is interesting. The question 'what happens when' applied to things like 'two objects collide', 'you get a haircut', 'you add 2 and 2' all can have clear outcomes because those outcomes have a specific future relative to where you ask the question from.

But to ask what happens when you die, you are also asking what happens when we remove the experienced timeline and the relative perspective. So great question, what happens to time and existence when my separate body goes away?

I think the answer is, that from the perspective of a separate ego self, it's pretty much the same as before you were born. This isn't exactly what you might think of as an 'end'. It just doesn't exist. From the perspective of one who has seen that their body and experience is inseparable from everything else, all the "I" experiences are both eternal and fleeting. There is no timeline to judge against. But that's my ego's answer, from my point of view. Yours may be different.

[Travis]

When we die we are judged by Jesus Christ as to weither or not we go to heaven.
Peace and Love

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Travis

When we die we are judged by Jesus Christ as to weither or not we go to heaven.
Peace and Love

Ok.

[freddy]

Originally Posted by Travis

When we die we are judged by Jesus Christ as to weither or not we go to heaven.
Peace and Love

You almost have me convinced. Now prove you theory. hee hee hee

[frajilthunder]

Originally Posted by Travis

When we die we are judged by Jesus Christ as to weither or not we go to heaven.
Peace and Love

For your sake, I hope Jesus doesn't count spelling errors when he hands out judgment.

[Jasper Solomon]

What I wanted to put for the title is: We don't die, but the underline isn't available in the title window. Only our idea of what we are 'dies' and that was a misunderstanding in the first place.

I suppose my take on death comes nearest to the posts by Groundless, Judge and Jasper666 (hey, is there another Jasper out there?). Rather than compose another attempt to answer it, I append my chapter on 'Death' from my web site: Home, which you need to read if the reasoning behind it is to be clear.

"Before I come to a conclusion, let’s look at what we are when the body/mind we think we are is no longer. What I am and you are, which is ‘I’, cannot die because it has never been born. ‘Living’ is only the elaboration in sequential duration of what is otherwise our normal state, which is what we call ‘death’. Only objects appear to be born and to die and ‘I’ is not an object. I’ is simply ‘I’. Call it Mind, Consciousness or even God if you want. It (which, of course, is not an ‘it’) is outside Time and therefore eternal, without form and thus infinite and forever unchanging. What is eternal and infinite can never die.

But don’t forget – it can also never be known because it is what we are. After dying there can be no consciousness of anything because there is only Consciousness or Mind and Mind cannot be aware of Mind except in its manifested state of phenomenal existence we know as life. What does appear to die is this organic machine which, during its life, has been the apparatus through which ‘I’ has functioned, just as ‘I’ goes on functioning through all the other machines that are still living after ‘our’ death. This machine, this ‘bag of bones’, at some point packs up because it malfunctions to such an extent as a result of disease, old age or being dropped from a great height that Mind can no longer operate through it. Mind must move on without regret – there’s nothing personal about it. But Mind doesn’t go anywhere. Why? Because there is nowhere for it to go – it is nowhere and everywhere – what the physicist recognises as non-locality. When Ramana Maharshi was on his deathbed, he asked why those around him were crying and when he was informed he said: “But where do they imagine I could go to?” and he surely knew.

What about the soul? Clearly, if the phenomenal ‘me’ is a body that ceases to function at death and a psyche that depends on the body to function, there can be no ‘leftovers’. But might there be something like an ‘imprint’ that survives? After all, if our thoughts are part of manifestation – and what else can they be? – then they may well have a life of their own, particularly if they are based on intentions that are thwarted by the inexorable manifestation of what-is. As thoughts are phenomenal, they must be subject to and unfolded in Time.

Perhaps this is where the idea of karma came from. Karma cannot mean rebirth because there is nothing to be reborn but it might be the rebirth or rather the recurrence of unresolved desires. Each thought, each I-concept, each intention is perhaps a minute energy blip, fading with Time but recurring through the body/minds that are still living. This might even account for the phenomenon of memory carry-overs from one body to another. After all, if there is energy behind the I-concept, it is not likely to remain inactive just because the body it was identified with has perished. This is an idea that chimes with the understanding that the 'Awakened' do not produce karma because they no longer have a self to generate desire or intentions."

[Wombels]

Maybe this might make some sense,

Whenever someone can access or tap into his blue print, reincarnation can become crystal clear a fact upon a personal level.

From what I have been told, each time we leave our (dead) physical body, we rejoin the source which binds us all. Everything we have experienced while in the physical gets downloaded after which we go for a rest which lasts for approximately 70 years.

Apparently it’s a personal choice we make whenever we decide to go for another round in the physical.

The reason why we don’t recall previous lives is to protect ourselves while in the physical, still we all carry that potential to tap into source in order to become enlightened about our identity, who we are, and why we are here.

In order to obtain this truth one needs to seek within, no answers are to be found out of your own being!

I strongly believe humanity is slowly growing out of adolescence, it’s only a matter of time we might all shift into a new means of understanding, sadly enough fear is overwhelming the hearts of many making this process to go slower than it actually could.

Greetings Wombels