If Christianity had failed …

[Cantando]

[I will pre-empt any possible reply of, Well, it already has!]

Imagine what society would have been like, if Christianity had not taken hold – I mean early on, around 50 AD when the Roman Empire was still going strong. Imagine all the Christians had been thrown to the lions and that was it.

Would Roman society have continued – with Gladiatorial games, worshipping other Gods, etc?

Would Attila the Hun have invaded Rome and taken over Europe and created his own empire?

Would we have evolved naturally to become more humane, loving and compassionate eventually, or would it have remained as a dog-eat-dog, ruthless, militaristic world where power and might were the only things worth striving for (pre-empt again: Well, it's like that now!)?

Would Buddhism have spread over from the East? Might Islam have taken over the western world?

Any imaginative, visionary storytellers out there?

[Cran]

You seem to have a rather limited view of Roman as well as Medieval history.

Neither was Rome all about being ruthless and military power, nor was the medieval christian society all about compassion and love.

In my opinion, we have our own forms of gladiator-games, just turn on your TV.

And I think th eroman empire would have ended anyway, each culture has its high and lows. Much of the Roman empire was preserved and is still important today, for example in law and art.

It was not Christianity that put an end to the Roman empire. But if Christianity hadn't evolved, another monotheistic religion, perhaps Islam, would have taken its place, monotheism was on the rise withhin the Roman polytheistic system, for example through the worship of sol invictus.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Cran

You seem to have a rather limited view of Roman as well as Medieval history.

Neither was Rome all about being ruthless and military power, nor was the medieval christian society all about compassion and love.

Sorry, you've lost me. Where did I mention anything about medieval christian society or it being about compassion and love?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Cantando

[I will pre-empt any possible reply of, Well, it already has!]

Imagine what society would have been like, if Christianity had not taken hold – I mean early on, around 50 AD when the Roman Empire was still going strong. Imagine all the Christians had been thrown to the lions and that was it.

Would Roman society have continued – with Gladiatorial games, worshipping other Gods, etc?

Would Attila the Hun have invaded Rome and taken over Europe and created his own empire?

Would we have evolved naturally to become more humane, loving and compassionate eventually, or would it have remained as a dog-eat-dog, ruthless, militaristic world where power and might were the only things worth striving for (pre-empt again: Well, it's like that now!)?

Would Buddhism have spread over from the East? Might Islam have taken over the western world?

Any imaginative, visionary storytellers out there?

You seem to put a lot of stock in the impact Christianity as a form of religeon had on the development of Western Culture.

I believe you overestimate it's worth.

Perhaps The Church could be credited with (or blamed for depending on your particular point of view) what you describe, but the belief in Christ as God had very little impact in and of itself (other than to create the foundation for a new proselytizing cult).

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

You seem to put a lot of stock in the impact Christianity as a form of religeon had on the development of Western Culture.

I believe you overestimate it's worth.

Perhaps The Church could be credited with (or blamed for depending on your particular point of view) what you describe, but the belief in Christ as God had very little impact in and of itself (other than to create the foundation for a new proselytizing cult).

You seem to be putting a lot stock into what you imagine I am putting a lot of stock into . If Christianity has had little or no impact (and I did not say it had any great impact), then what sort of world do you imagine we would be living in today? That's all I'm asking. Do you think it would be pretty much as it is today, or even better - more advanced technology, perhaps?

[Barcs]

My opinion on this is that we'd be better off. If Christianity has done anything over the years it's held society back. Technology and science have been stopped when it contradicts the bible (ie galileo) or cetain values (stem cell research). I can't just blame Christianity though, because most religions have a similar mindset. In reality though, another religion would have taken its place, or Judaism would be bigger today. When I think back to all of the people massacred, tortured and killed in the name of a god they didn't believe in or haven't even heard of it sickens my stomach and becomes obvious that society would be better off today. Christianity itself did not lead to the technology booms and industrial revolutions. Great minds and enlightened folks did.

[mlc82]

I was under the impression that what'd we call the "Enlightenment" period had MUCH more to do with upholding humane/benevolent behavior (or at least espousing it) than organized Christianity ever did. The history of Christianity from 350AD on is just as nasty as that of pre-Christian Rome. Forced conversions, inquisitions, crusade after crusade (many besides the main, popular "retake the Holy Land!" ones as well), colonialism, and etc weren't any prettier than some of the nastier Roman conquests (The Gallic campaign of Julius Caesar really stands out for it's sheer brutality).

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Cantando

You seem to be putting a lot stock into what you imagine I am putting a lot of stock into .

HA! Ok... fair enough. There I go..."making meaning" again.

Originally Posted by Cantando

If Christianity has had little or no impact (and I did not say it had any great impact), then what sort of world do you imagine we would be living in today? That's all I'm asking. Do you think it would be pretty much as it is today, or even better - more advanced technology, perhaps?

I do think it would be pretty much the same as it is today. My ill-made point was that the religion of Christianity had far much less to do with where we are today than all the other factors that got us here.

It is my belief that religion is dictated by culture, not vice-versa. When a particular belief system no longer serves The People, it ceases to exist or is subsumed by another belief system that is more responsive.

Human history has been shaped more by natural disaster, plague and famine than religion; even if you consider the wars that were ostensibly fought over ideological beliefs.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Barcs

My opinion on this is that we'd be better off. If Christianity has done anything over the years it's held society back. Technology and science have been stopped when it contradicts the bible (ie galileo) or cetain values (stem cell research).

I don't think this argument really holds up. Technology has been used for some truly brutal things. The Eastern Front in WW2 is one of the most devastating wars the world's ever seen, over 30 million killed in the most brutal and inhumane ways, mostly civilians, in a few short years. Vast sections of land were devastated. Made possible entirely thanks to technology. Neither the Nazi's nor Soviets were religious states. Technology also gave us the nuclear weapons, although you could almost argue that made the world MORE peaceful thanks to mutually assured destruction. But that could change. Fact is, we have the potential to truly destroy ourselves and this planet if we want, thanks to technology.

Though I'm no fan of Christianity, I think overall it's influence on history/culture is relatively minor compared to other things.

[The David]

I think people both over- and underestimate its influence. Anti-christian thought says things like we'd be better of without it, the bloodshed is horrible, and other such things. But I think bloodshed and greed are intrinsic to human nature, and religion is simply an excuse. Christianity isn't the only institution that demands that people give up their minds. However. . .Christianity has, in subtle ways and unsubtle ways, influenced Western values in ways that aren't necessarily 'religious' in nature. I mean, even non-Christians seem to think that Jesus, as a symbol of service and tolerance, was a good ideal, but many non-Christian cultures would view his bleeding-heart liberalism and anarchy as distasteful at best.

My opinion? There's no way of even fathoming the impact of any religion which has a 2000 year history as crazy as Christianity's. But by all means, continue speculating.

[yossarian]

I have an interesting question.

If Christianity had not existed, would Europe still have suffered the wholesale torture of anyone in society who deviated even slightly from the social norms?

In my opinion it takes a thoroughly dogmatic monolithic institution to host the kind of demonism that the Catholic Church practiced for 1000 years.

Bloodshed is one thing. Organized, long-standing, widespread torture of innocents including children is another. At least tribal cultures kill their enemies. The Catholics let them be eaten alive by rats (literally) between applications of the wheel where every bone in their body was smashed.

[Cantando]

Some interesting comments there.

I was also wondering - what about ideologies like Fascism and Communism? Do you think they may have still emerged, in some form or another, or could they possibly be explained as being reactions to Christian based/influenced thought and structures?

For example, leading up to the Russian Revolution, the Tsar of Russia, although a very devout Christian, did nothing to help his people economically, thus giving rise to Lenin and his teachings. At that time, the monarchy still held the belief in the Divine Right of Kings, i.e. the king could do as he liked as God had placed him on the throne. That belief, though, was also prevalent in other non-Christian societies, such as Ancient Rome, Aztecs in Mexico, China, Japan, etc - but the difference there was that they believed they were actually divine as well.

[Cran]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I have an interesting question.

If Christianity had not existed, would Europe still have suffered the wholesale torture of anyone in society who deviated even slightly from the social norms?

In my opinion it takes a thoroughly dogmatic monolithic institution to host the kind of demonism that the Catholic Church practiced for 1000 years.

Bloodshed is one thing. Organized, long-standing, widespread torture of innocents including children is another. At least tribal cultures kill their enemies. The Catholics let them be eaten alive by rats (literally) between applications of the wheel where every bone in their body was smashed.

You seem to overestimate the bloodshed caused by the inquisition, which came not into being until the 13th century and was only in some parts a cruel, blood-drinking institution. It wrked out badly in Spain, but the inquisition in Italy was (for the time) amazingly fair and did only deal out very few death sentences in comparison with non-religious courts in that time.

Torture could only be applied with the consent and participation of the worldly government, so they were involved, too...

And it is strange that so many people are believed to have opposed the Catholic system when it was so oppressive in the first place... how did they manage?

Unfortunately, other denominations didn't do better after they had invented itself.

I do not regard christianity as an advantage for society, but I am a big fan of getting historical facts right and not creating a "monster" because it fits my own views.

[Rene2]

this is what would have flourished

Gnosticism

[Rene2]

I think Gnosticism would have flourished...

[Michael Chui]

The Roman Empire may or may not have declined without Christianity's help in its slide. It probably would have lasted longer: most of the post-Constantine strife was a religious civil war: but it was certainly not the same Rome as it was in the glory days of Augustus. Constantine's conversion came after he re-conquered the city, after all.

Without Constantine as a focal center, Christianity would never have gotten the strangehold on spiritual thought it did. Oddly enough, despite the fact that I'm anti-Christian myself, I would argue that the merciless extermination of pagan thought did bend spiritual thought towards a more compassionate and loving tone. Wiccanism, Odinism, and the various revived pagan religions of today are forcifully tempered by a culture that's grown up in luxurious peace: a peace that wasn't there when Caesars pushed the boundaries and their successors did their best to convert the conquered.

That doesn't mean this mode of thought would have stayed, though. Christianity was just as bloody, before the stability of urban life and the obvious advantages of world peace started becoming ubiquitious, at least in our parts of the world. Nothing really suggests that Attila would have done any less than he did, though.

Islam tore itself apart on its own. After conquering Jerusalem and stabbing into Spain and France, the caliphates collapsed upon themselves and ended their Golden Era. It is, of course, worth asking whether or not they would have pushed further into Europe if the nations bound together only by their religion had not opposed them together, but my history isn't up to snuff for these details.

I think that Islam was doomed. According to Wikipedia, it was decapitated by something completely unChristian: the Mongols. And even before that, it was a waning force in the world. It certainly had its heyday, maintaining itself as a world power all that time. But at the beginning of the Crusades, their Golden Age was over. Like Rome, Christianity's influence could not have been beneficial, but it was certainly not decisive either.

As for Buddhism, it is not a conquering religion. India has not been in the conquistador mood in forever; Japan was completely shut off from the world, not to open its doors until MacArthur; and China had its own Mongol problems.

It's passingly more likely that the Mongol horde would have maintained its hold on China and moved west to clash properly with the Huns, who they had driven out. Christianity wouldn't have been a remote factor in that battle, and the result would have been a very unwieldy government of Mongols that would one day decide to give up on the whole idea and leave the world in shambles as they go back to Russia.

*shrugs*

But I'm not a history buff, nor am I a military buff. Which is mostly the same thing, back then.