Weekly Religion: Taoism

[Adam]

I've seen a few people quoting the Tao Te Ching in their signatures (myself included) which got me to think that there could be plenty of healthy discussion about 'The Way.'

I'm not too familiar with the origins or progression of Tao, other than that Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching, and it has inspired many people, even entire civilizations...

So, what are people's thoughts?

[Mnemosyne]

Personally, I find a lot of truth in the Tao Te Ching and the principles of Wu Wei.

There are many things that the Tao teaches, but one of my favorites is about duality.

Shown below is the second verse of the Tao Te Ching, translated by S. Mitchell.

<--

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

-->

Essentially it describes the meaning behind the familiar yin-yang symbol.

People talk about good and evil, they wish for a world without evil. But I believe that good exists because of evil. Evil helps us to see and participate in the good in the world. Likewise, without darkness there would be no need for light. One needs the other.

[Akashic_Librarian]

"Nurture the darkness of your soul
until you become whole.
Can you do this and not fail?
Can you focus your life-breath until you become
supple as a newborn child?
While you cleanse your inner vision
will you be found without fault?
Can you love people and lead them
without forcing your will on them?
When Heaven gives and takes away
can you be content with the outcome?
When you understand all things
can you step back from your own understanding?"

One of my favourite quotes from the Tao Te Ching.

[Brutha]

Isn't the religion called Taoism instead of Tao?

[Adam]

Thanks. I'll edit the title.

[maverickstruth]

One of the most interesting debates (ie. formal debate with opening and closing arguments, etc.) I've taken part in was about whether or not Daoism is a religion or a philosophy. I think the outcome was a decisive "it depends." When most people think of Daoism, they think of the Daodejing, about yin and yang, about wu wei (if they've even ever heard of wu wei), about the Dao, etc. Very philosophical, but all of those ideas are also part of the larger Chinese consciousness -- not specifically "Daoist."

The religious aspects of Daoism include ritual activities, gods, afterlife beliefs, etc. Many students of religion, when they are first introduced to this side of Daoism, say something like "That doesn't sound anything like the Daoism that I've heard about!" and they're right. If all you know of is the Daodejing, then ritual sex doesn't seem to fit. It's an interesting paradox, and one that is a lot of fun to investigate; I'd encourage anyone to do so.

Philosophy or religion? Probably both. But then again, what is religion anyway? (That's a rhetorical question... the bane of religious studies scholars is that we can't define what we're talking about!)

[dECLAN]

The Tao that can be explained is not the eternal Tao.

For me the power of The Way lies in its simplicity and its principles of of wu wei, which is letting nature take its course.

[David Hausladen]

Originally Posted by maverickstruth

But then again, what is religion anyway? (That's a rhetorical question... the bane of religious studies scholars is that we can't define what we're talking about!)

Isn't religion when science--philosophy of the state of things--is attached to morality--philosophy of how we should live?

Applying that to Taoism, whether it's a religion or a philosophy depends on how the individual sees it.

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by David Hausladen

Isn't religion when science--philosophy of the state of things--is attached to morality--philosophy of how we should live?

Ah yes, the age-old question of "what is religion". Not even religious studies scholars have been able to come up with a definition that suits everyone. I hadn't heard yours before... I will have to add it to the list

Originally Posted by David Hausladen

Applying that to Taoism, whether it's a religion or a philosophy depends on how the individual sees it.

That's pretty much how I see it... only reason I mentioned it is because I think a lot of people aren't aware that Daoism isn't just the Daodejing, and it's not just philosophies of balance For example, most people don't know that there are over 1500 books in the Daoist canon of scripture. Or that there was a long standing practice of injesting mercury because it was believed that doing so would grant immortality. Or as I mentioned before, the worship of gods and deities plays a major role, too. When you throw those things in and add them to the philosophy of the Chuang Tzu and the Daodejing, you get... well... the religiosophy of Daoism.

[maverickstruth]

This site might also be of interest to people who are interested in Daoism... much of it is in Chinese, but there is some English, Japanese, etc. as well.

http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/index.html

[AdamKayce]

Originally Posted by dECLAN

The Tao that can be explained is not the eternal Tao.

For me the power of The Way lies in its simplicity and its principles of of wu wei, which is letting nature take its course.

Yes, and a big part of Taoism (or, following the Tao) is about getting back in sync with the natural way. That includes the ways that our conditioning/beliefs/etc. take us out of it.

Many people (I'm not saying you, dECLAN, just pointing out a position) take 'the way' to be 'sit back and do nothing'. But it's so much more - and so much less - than that.

It may sound funny, but "The Tao of Pooh" and "The Te of Piglet" are actually good Taoism primers, for anyone just starting out.

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by AdamKayce

It may sound funny, but "The Tao of Pooh" and "The Te of Piglet" are actually good Taoism primers, for anyone just starting out.

The Tao of Pooh is great; I highly recommend it as well. I haven't read the Te of Piglet, but I have heard mixed reviews it -- some people say it's a great tool for understanding Te, some people say it's ... well... less than great. It seems like you fit into the first category... care to elaborate?

[dECLAN]

Originally Posted by AdamKayce

Many people (I'm not saying you, dECLAN, just pointing out a position) take 'the way' to be 'sit back and do nothing'. But it's so much more - and so much less - than that.

Yes I understand what you are saying.

There is a big difference between non-action (letting things take their course) and inaction. The only analogy I can think of is a river winding down the mountain. It doesn't have to do anything as such but yet their is movement sometimes quite a torrent. People who practice T'ai Chi (Wu/Hao style) will probably relate better to this analogy of flow and movement.

[dECLAN]

Some further thoughts and meditations on the concept of flow given to me by a Taoist teacher Deng Ming Dao...

If the boulders are moved,
Even a river will change its flow.

Followers of Tao realize that the flow of life can be effected and to some degree consciously manipulated simply by altering life's parameters.

By moving the boulders (cardinal points in our lives), we can change the flow. The freedom to choose and change belongs to us. It is not freedom to sit back and do nothing.

[AndyMartin]

It's easy to overlook the subtlety Tao Te Ching because it's easy to call paradox profound and leave it at that. It has a way of making the foolish feel wise and the wise feel foolish, but it never mocks you for it. It doesn't so much teach as invite you to ask questions, which is to say, it invites you into the process of learning rather than the act of concluding.

We need more Tao.

[Michael Chui]

Is anyone planning on giving a history of Daoism, or are we just going to swap profound sayings?

There's definitely a time and place for considering such things, but I was under the impression that the Weekly Religion thread was about gaining a summative overview of a religion.

[knave]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Is anyone planning on giving a history of Daoism, or are we just going to swap profound sayings?

There's definitely a time and place for considering such things, but I was under the impression that the Weekly Religion thread was about gaining a summative overview of a religion.

For a summative overview of anything, I point you to Wikipedia.

[dcaldwell]

I've counted myself a Taoist adept for several years now. There a lot more to Taoism than the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang-Zu. Those who regularly quote from those two specifically, talk about the "philosophy" and "flow like water through life" are practicing what academic scholars refer to now as "American Taoism" -- which basically focuses on a tiny portion of the canon and strips out all the dogma. It is to original Taoism what the Protestant reformation did to Christianity. I don't mean to say that's good or bad (because there's no such thing as absolute duality), but there's a very distinct difference.

Taoism is about identifying the Tao in everything through observation of nature and its cycles, and recognizing and nurturing the energies within your own body. Using ritual, meditation (moving or breathing-only), observation, self-moderation, conscious action (or conscious in-action where necessary) and diligent practice of whatever you value, etc., you learn to experience the mountains and abysses of life for what they really are, live without attachment, assist others where needed and at the same time meld into the background noise without a care. You connect and receive the Tao (the original creative source) regularly and give back that much and more. It's a beautiful, yet very personal, experience. (When do or don't you act? Memorize the "I Ching" to discover the nature of change itself, then apply that to life. You'll begin to see things very differently.)

Taoism places just as much emphasis (if not more) on the body as Buddhism places on the mind. As human beings, we are bound by this body and we cannot return or receive the Tao without it being strong and healthy. We cannot service others without first taking care of ourselves. Hence the thousands of years of alchemy and dietetics "research". Eastern alchemy focused on ways of transforming energies in the body. Many of the ancient dietetics practices are regularly turning up as "new discoveries!" in America.

One thing I love about the Taoist canon is its practical application. Its authors wrote very succinctly, almost to the point of providing instruction manuals; however, you must understand the original meanings behind the terminology to use it correctly. Obviously you require a master once you get to a certain point. We can talk about the wonderful philosophy of Taoism and the paradoxes in the mainstream works until we're blue in the face, but you must begin to practice that philosophy consciously and apply the "exercises" to your daily schedule. Wu-Wei is just as much about non-action as it is diligent long-term practice that makes something "appear" effortless to the layman.

[demk]

Wayne Dyer is writing a book on The Dao. He has some good podcasts in his archive on hayhouse too...

Hay House Radio | Radio For The Soul | Listen Live to Hay House Authors | Listen Again Archive

[AndyMartin]

Originally Posted by dcaldwell

One thing I love about the Taoist canon is its practical application. Its authors wrote very succinctly, almost to the point of providing instruction manuals; however, you must understand the original meanings behind the terminology to use it correctly. Obviously you require a master once you get to a certain point. We can talk about the wonderful philosophy of Taoism and the paradoxes in the mainstream works until we're blue in the face, but you must begin to practice that philosophy consciously and apply the "exercises" to your daily schedule. Wu-Wei is just as much about non-action as it is diligent long-term practice that makes something "appear" effortless to the layman.

Your points are definitely more apropos Taoism as religious practice than as spiritual philosophy, which is more where myself and a few others are speaking from in terms of our experience with Taoist teachings. You have differentiated your approach from ours as the practitioner from the dilettante, which -- as you said -- is neither good nor bad, simply not the same. But you haven't told us much about your own practice, or what it means in terms of the religious experience.

So please tell us more. Do you practice Sundo or another form of Taoist physical practice? Do you seek physical immortality as the literal goal of your practice as Taoist tradition holds in parallel to the spiritual liberation of Buddhism and Hinduism? Have you found sex alchemy to be a transformative practice or just another early form of sex-psychology? Many masters have said they didn't study I Ching until late in life because they were not ready to understand it until then; have you found it to have practical insight for the novice? Care to share any examples of the type of experience to which the religious practice of Taoism is conducive?

Thanks,
Andy

[dcaldwell]

I practice what is referred to as the water tradition, a very internal cultivative practice. There is no enlightenment at the end of the road. In fact, there is no end of the road. Physically, I practice Chen-style Tai Chi and do some Qi-Gong breathing daily. I've just started exploring Hsing-I. My meditations are typically either exploring emptiness beyond my mind, or feeling the chi move through its pathways. I have circulated the microcosmic orbit, and have gotten as far as opening the second circuit or gate. I've got a long way to work with that though. One of my most significant early meditative experiences was when I was focusing on the center of myself, passively observing my thoughts. After maybe a half hour, I felt a pressure at the top of my head and I could see a whirlpool within myself. I was being pulled in, but I wasn't scared and somehow knew nothingness existed at the bottom. Before I could get there, something pulled me out.

I generally follow the dietetics practices whereby I stay away from all preservatives and processed food, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, stay away from most grains and most meat. This, in combination with pathway healing meditations (whereby you carefully sweep your meridians for blockages) is very energizing. Understanding how the 5 elements work within myself has saved a lot of doctor appointments for little issues. One acupuncture session resolved a problem doctors couldn't even identify for nearly 4 months. What you think about is just as important as what you eat and drink. In that regard, I stay away from television but not movies. One of my favorites is "Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter and Spring", a Korean film. More recently I tend to use Hollywood's emotional choke-chains to explore my own emotional triggers.

Physical immortality doesn't, in my opinion, mesh well with Taoist belief because it's an extreme and I suspect there's been some misinterpretation over time. I do think we can live "a lot" longer than we are now, but physical immortality is not possible. Death of the body is a necessary experience, but you can generally control when that happens. I believe your spirit returns to the Source when your body dies and a necessary goal of your practice is to prepare your spirit for that eventuality. Eating and drinking well, thinking not negatively (but not necessarily thinking all positively), and enriching your energy will provide your body with a long life in which to cultivate.

I don't follow sexual alchemy. I've read extensively about it, but haven't dove in.

There's two sides to the I Ching. One side is knowing generally what's happening in each hexagram, associated trigrams and lines. The other side is how you relate to that and can work through inauspicious circumstances. The first side can definitely be understood by anyone. By knowing it, you can say to yourself, "what's happening now is much like hexagram 'w', and since I know the lines move like 'x', I bet 'y' is going to happen, so I'll do 'z'." That's the macro. The micro is applying that to yourself, identifying hexagrams, trigrams and moving lines to your own circumstances. Being able to deal with that is a matter of ego -- your ego isn't willing to admit you screwed up or it'll place you on a pedestal if you've done the correct thing. Sometimes the correct action is to do something most people don't want, but you have to accept maybe a tornado is necessary "because" of the damage. Accepting and acting on what the I Ching means personally, "good" and "bad", is what those Masters are saying; that cannot be done until you're ready.

Everyone here can agree that once you've opened yourself you can begin more easily identifying opportunity. One particularly important Taoist practice is helping others (partially for the purpose building your own virtue). This was so refined that they actually had points for each action, with the goal of getting to the next level. Now, I don't count points, but the intention is interesting. I've found the more I grow the more I find opportunities to help others, be that just listening to actually physically enabling. The more you give, the more you get.

What I get most out of the religious practice is the idea that ritual strengthens habit. Building those habits is very important when living in our culture. Most chants are foundational text, which are good to memorize. When you kneel, who are you worshiping? Perhaps yourself? As for worshiping Gods and such, I think that's bull and nothing more than a hold-over from ancient times. However, the statuette of Kuan Kung on my work desk is a nice symbolic reminder (Read the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" to learn more.)

My views about religion overall is an internal conflict because I was raised a church-going Protestant and voluntarily separated myself from that, going first to atheism, objectivism -- then after a brief stint with Buddhism and a "crisis of faith", found the Tao. If you study the history of Taoism, you'll find that the more popular aspects of it weren't Taoist in the first place -- they were later adopted. The greatest periods of Taoism expansion coincided with equal religious development. The two are intimately intertwined and cannot be separated. Despite this, I distinguish the cultural context from the core intentions. Much of the pomp came from reactions to Buddhism, which was as symbolic as Taoism was not. Take out the pomp and the god worship and you've got something quite powerful. Conversely, you cannot place too much importance in it because ultimately acceptance and the cultivation has to happen internally, but the filtered dogma and ritual certainly helps buttress it.

[AndyMartin]

Very cool; thanks for sharing your experience and practice.

[cedc]

Thanks dcaldwell for sharing and explaining. I found it very useful.

[Eternal Wayfarer]

The Eternal Way describe in chinese. In another region, it is known as Sanatana Dharma. Me? I call it The Eternal Way.