Do you believe in prayers?

[raphnix]

If your religion believes that praying to your God would make you wishes and expectation come true, do you believe to its truthfulness?

Do you believe that praying is a good sign of your religious faith?

'Cause, I think praying is only used to PUT hope to the people.

[metamorph]

Interesting!

When I was a kid I used to pray like a kid having a wish-list for Santa Claus. And I would thank God because either I thought he/she likes it, and thus will be more willing to fulfill my wishes or because I was genuinely grateful for something.

Now I do not pray anymore because I do not think that it is God's job to fix anything for us. It is our job. But then, I am not sure what I will do, if someone who is close to me is diagnosed with a very severe illness...

But, I do believe praying can be immensely valuable for someone. Similar to using mantras or meditation.

[Technicolor Tim]

I do. And considering we have research on this stuff that indicates that prayer may be effective in helping ill people get better (look at Dean Radin's stuff), it would certainly be irrational to just dismiss it.

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Technicolor Tim

I do. And considering we have research on this stuff that indicates that prayer may be effective in helping ill people get better (look at Dean Radin's stuff), it would certainly be irrational to just dismiss it.

it is the same as "intention-manifestation"?

[Technicolor Tim]

Originally Posted by metamorph

it is the same as "intention-manifestation"?

If you wanted to use that particular term, then yes, I guess you could say they were essentially the same thing, or at least working through the same mechanism. However, this is obviously highly complicated stuff that I'm not sure we're even beginning to understand. At this point, it would be silly to dismiss the link between consciousness and what we perceive as outer reality as simple superstition, because the link does absolutely seem to be there. Exactly what the nature of that link is, though, is harder to understand.

Does your consciouness 'attract' something in outer reality? This is what a lot of 'LoA' authors would tell you, and it might be true. However, as they mostly seem to get most of their ideas from other 'LoA' authors, I take what they peddle with a pinch of salt.

Another possibility: Is outer reality just your consciousness (the Oneness / Advaita Vedanta paradigm)? In that case, whatever we hold 'in here' is the out there. And to a degree, this must be true. Examine it for yourself: Where is reality if not in your mind? Our experience, at least, of reality is only in our minds, but we're so used to it being there that we don't see it.

Or is the link there without being causal, or does it work both ways, so to speak? Meaning, if I 'visualise' having a sports car and get a sports car, did I get the sports car because I visualised, or did I visualise because I was getting the sports car, or did both events just occur 'side by side' because that's the way things work and the notion of time is absolutely illusory?

Personally, when I try to make sense of stuff like this - stuff that hides so 'deep' in our reality - by intellectualising about it, I find myself just getting more and more confused. Obviously, there are a lot smarter and better educated people than me who can intellectualise much better about this (and other stuff too). Thank God. However, I think a step forward would perhaps be to realize that we are not [yet] hardwired to understand this stuff on an intellectual level, but perhaps on an intuitive one. In very deep meditation I have felt that I have understood 'the nature of reality' (although even trying to describe it like that feels silly and false), but on an intellectual level my mind is not up to the task at all. And: all trying to figure this out really just comes from the wanting to control things. Maybe we'd actually understand it better (if only on an intuitive level) if we let go of wanting to figure it out. And that's actually my experience, and it points again to the same stuff: Letting go of wanting to figure it out is letting go of the consciousness of 'lacking the answer.' And once you let go of that consciousness voila, you move from 'lacking' to 'having' and the answer is here. Just like when I was broke and let go of wanting money, and suddenly found myself having quite a lot of money. Or when I'm sick with the flu like last night and let go wanting to be well and wake up this morning having totally forgotten about being sick yesterday. I didn't even think about it until a friend called and asked how I was doing. My consciousness was not one of 'lacking wellness' and so outer reality seems to have conformed / adjusted / played along.

Personally, I think the best way to describe how consciousness affects outer reality might be this: Can you pick up one end of a stick without picking up the other?

Anyway, I believe almost all the LoA guys are in the dark about this stuff, but that doesn't stop them from peddling their confusion as fact. If they were more honest about the fact that they do not completely understand how stuff works, they'd sell less books and seminars. I might be wrong, though, because I stopped reading LoA books years ago - the guys currently writing about this stuff may be a lot better than the ones of yesteryear. I think it's like this, though: They're onto something, but far from solving the case.

Ahaha, messy rant - but at least I try!

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by Technicolor Tim

Ahaha, messy rant - but at least I try!

I enjoyed reading it. Interesting thought. Thanks!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by raphnix

If your religion believes that praying to your God would make you wishes and expectation come true, do you believe to its truthfulness?

Do you believe that praying is a good sign of your religious faith?

'Cause, I think praying is only used to PUT hope to the people.

It is on the same lines as LOA. It's the intention and energy behind it. The intention behind the prayer, and the energy (feelings) create the outcome. However, it may not be the desired outcome but the result of self-expression. Nothing to do with god at all. IMHO

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Technicolor Tim

Or is the link there without being causal, or does it work both ways, so to speak? Meaning, if I 'visualise' having a sports car and get a sports car, did I get the sports car because I visualised, or did I visualise because I was getting the sports car, or did both events just occur 'side by side' because that's the way things work and the notion of time is absolutely illusory?

This is a thoughtful comment.

I believe that:

a) Time is a transparent continuum that mind travels backwards and forwards in.
b) All probable events exist within the All Mind.
c) The manifestor and the manifested are aspects of one another.

So subject/object is also object/subject. Each has qualities the other is attempting to manifest. Perhaps the consciousness of the matter that makes up a sports car doesn't care who owns it. Perhaps it is only aware of a very small degree of freedom on a microscopic level. The spheres of choice available to it would be quite small, relative to a human being, who is aware of more. But as long as this consciousness has no preference (in this case by simply having no conscious awareness of the human variable), it is subject to the phenomenon of intention manifestation.

I think free will plays a huge role in the cosmos as we know it. I think our fixation upon certain outcomes, reflexively engineers the past of the outcome. The past of that goal could be considered our future actions. So maybe I only think I'm manifesting something through visualization, when in reality, the action of visualization was merely one small step in the manifestation of something else's intention. Like a Higher Self for example.

I guess it comes down to the question of what is the REAL me? Where does my ego's free will start and end? Perhaps I can do whatever I want to do, but what I want was actually decided for me.

[Barcs]

I believe in willing good intentions and affecting reality / collective consciousness in this way, but not the aspect of actually talking to god and making requests. These 2 things are different but I believe can have similar affects.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Prayer is a waste of time. Its unfocussed, rote recitation without thought to the words being said. It contains no inherent power and can do nothing but give to false and damaging hope to people.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Prayer is a waste of time. Its unfocussed, rote recitation without thought to the words being said. It contains no inherent power and can do nothing but give to false and damaging hope to people.

My prayers are nothing if not focused, and they are not rote at all. I have experienced the power of prayer personally, and love that I have such a meaningful, intimate connection with Source.

I don't think everyone needs to pray, though. It works for me, so I do it.

[stellasky]

I disagree, or better, let me say that my experience differs.
I've never "belonged" to any religion, at age twelve, I created my own prayer out of necessity, which I basically used for most of my life.
I put much careful thought into my prayers and sometimes went through them quickly because I didn't want to "dwell", but it certainly helped me through some hard times.
At six years old, I lived briefly in a catholic convent and had to recite prayers every morning and night in the chapel, they had no meaning for me then. In fact I kind of hated it.

Just last year (a million years later) I took a bible study class out of historical curiosity and also went to a handful of sunday mornings at a church. The prayer I knew as a child was still there in my memory, I joined everyone in reciting and put my meaning to its words, hence, much thought. Even though I preferred my personal prayer, the existing bible classic now had new meaning. I found the church was still not my way even though I've always vibed with the concept of Jesus and his teachings.

When I heard about "Intention Manifestation", I laughed because I'd been doing that all my life by praying. In retrospect things or situations I prayed for that weren't for my highest good didn't manifest, but I'd have to say that many, if not most did.

I find little difference between prayer and intending, except that in praying, I'm also concerned with the well being of others and having a conversation with Jesus.

I've done Yoga chanting a few years back and currently Buddhist chants and although I don't even know what the words' meaning's are, the "rote" repetition and rhythmic sounds are soothing to me among other positives.

For me, there is no false hope, only a strenthening of my self and faith in the bigger picture.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Prayer is a waste of time. Its unfocussed, rote recitation without thought to the words being said.

That really depends on how you pray.

One might say exactly the same thing about positive affirmations. But once again, it depends on how you use positive affirmations.

[pianoperformer]

Yes, I do. I'd be insane not to, because I see them work every day.

But a prayer isn't just a list of requests. if you approach it that way, I think you'll be disappointed. I see that method as quite selfish, of just petitioning God for our desires and giving little in return. I look at it like a relationship. What would someone do if every time you saw them, you just handed them a list of requests, and then left?

I usually ask for things quite in alignment with the Lords Prayer. If you think about it, those things are the things that matter in the long-run.

I then thank God for being with me and helping me, since every day is or contains trials for me.

I then ask for things, like helping me come closer to God, help me come closer to the truth, help me to serve Him better, etc.

Only then do I go to some of my personal requests or petitions for help or guidance.

It works for me. Sometimes I see things work out so perfectly that I pray an impromptu prayer just thanking Him.

I think there's something behind the Lord's Prayer, though.

The entry on the Lord's Prayer on Wikipedia says:

On Easter Sunday 2007 it was estimated that 2 billion Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox Christians read, recited, or sang the short prayer in hundreds of languages in houses of worship of all shapes and sizes.

That's about 1/3 of the people on Earth. I think that's cool. We sang it in church on Sunday, and I think it's definitely inspiring.

Akashic_Librarian, with all due respect, all you can say is that it is a waste of time for you, or in your experience. Can you argue with those who experience it differently, or who see it work in their day-to-day lives?

[Guardian Angel]

Originally Posted by raphnix

If your religion believes that praying to your God would make you wishes and expectation come true, do you believe to its truthfulness?

Do you believe that praying is a good sign of your religious faith?

'Cause, I think praying is only used to PUT hope to the people.

I am Not a Catholic and do not even go to other Christian churches, but I pray a lot to GOD whoever he is. I believe there is really someone somewhere who is a super being who does good things for this universe in our daily life.

For me, religion is an endless debate and a good business to venture in.

But no, I do not expect my prayers as I do not really ask for him anything but to guide me to be a good person, and to be better everyday.

I separate the word "prayer" to religion, as I think a prayer is for GOD while the latter is for man only.

[raphnix]

Originally Posted by Guardian Angel

I separate the word "prayer" to religion, as I think a prayer is for GOD while the latter is for man only.

Interesting principle. I sometimes think too that religion is associated with human politics in general.

[Guardian Angel]

Originally Posted by raphnix

Interesting principle. I sometimes think too that religion is associated with human politics in general.

Actually, I believe that too. And this has been going on even before Jesus Christ was born, agree?

[raphnix]

Originally Posted by Guardian Angel

Actually, I believe that too. And this has been going on even before Jesus Christ was born, agree?

Yeah. I agree.

Even the earlier or ancient beliefs always end up to politics because of the term associated with God being the MOST powerful or the HIGHEST being and that anything or anyone connected with Him/It would gain an equivalent political standing to the view of the society. Although an INDIVIDUAL devotion would be an ideal sort of religiosity.

[NightSpirit]

My sister called this afternoon and said she had pain in her chest and went to the doctor. They ordered xrays and the report that came back said the bottom of both of her lungs had collapsed.

The doctor said the condition does something correct itself but that it can rapidly go downhill and might require a procedure. She continued to have problems breathing and couldn't get in to see a lung specialist. I told her I would pray, but that I thought she needed some oxygen, or maybe an aspiration, instead of laying around and not being able to breathe.

She just called me, less than 8 hours later and said she went to the emergency room and had more xrays at the same department. Her lungs were not collapsed on the second set of xrays but they just showed some congestion. We were trying to figure out what was going on, whether she was healed that quick or whether the first report was wrong. She said she told them that her sister had said she was going to pray, so she believes God heard us and answered.

They gave her some more antibiotics and told her she could go back to work Thursday if she wants, when the other doctor had said it might take two weeks to get better.

It is times like this, we can't really prove that prayer did anything. We just know what we asked God to do, give her back her lung function, "happened."

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by raphnix

If your religion believes that praying to your God would make you wishes and expectation come true, do you believe to its truthfulness?

Do you believe that praying is a good sign of your religious faith?

'Cause, I think praying is only used to PUT hope to the people.

Ritualistic prayer is not something I've ever been into, so I can't speak to that, other than to say that anything, including prayer, done in a rote fashion without specific intent or awareness is usually quite empty and pointless.

When it comes to prayer expressing a desire, intention or need, I personally haven't seen reproducible results, and it tends to focus my attention on the pain or need of the moment which I find frustrating more than anything else.

Some say that prayer's main value is that, done right, it changes the one praying. This is expressed in the Christian realm in prayers such as, "not my will, but yours [god's] be done". In a more secular sense this is seeking to accurately understand the reality of a situation and adapt and act in accordance with that reality, rather than fighting reality. Further it is seeing reality at a deep and profound level, not at the surface.

In that context, prayer is not unlike meditation or contemplation, and its primary value in my view is to raise one's level of awareness. With heightened awareness, solutions that may elude a preoccupied or agitated mind, may become evident.

So ... does prayer in my view make my wishes or expectations come true? The answer is an unequivocal "no" in the sense that it doesn't work like a candy machine where you pull a lever and get the desired result.

I am not sure what you mean by prayer being "used to PUT hope to people". If you mean that prayer produces false hope, it most certainly can. But prayer also makes some people genuinely and usefully hopeful -- it lifts their spirits. I'm not one of those people, but if it makes people feel good while not encouraging them to be passive, what's the harm? I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it. It's how people misuse and misunderstand prayer that is the problem.

--Bob

[JorgeHTQH]

it depends on which god your serving....

If you're serving and living for the true and living God then he will answer your prayers...

when your living for yourself then the devil will answer your prayer...

both God and the devil answer prayers... even if you think you're praying to God but your living for self acheivement and materialsm fulfullment then the devil will answer it...

How do you know who answers your prayers? check your life to see if you are serving Him, working for Him reaching out to others, serving others, putting others needs first before your own and in your heart would rather forget about your own needs... and most importantly feeding upon God's word, the deep things of God..

Prayer works! who answers depends on who you're serving.

[Guardian Angel]

Originally Posted by JorgeHTQH

Prayer works! who answers depends on who you're serving.

I beg to disagree. Not all good prayers are being answered by GOD (whoever HE is). This is because HE knows what is better for us. We are only humans who have limits on understanding the difference between good and better.

GOD did not promise you that the sky will always be blue...

[raphnix]

Originally Posted by Guardian Angel

I beg to disagree. Not all good prayers are being answered by GOD (whoever HE is). This is because HE knows what is better for us. We are only humans who have limits on understanding the difference between good and better.

GOD did not promise you that the sky will always be blue...

The point of praying too can be a sign that you remember you're God so it's spirituality healthy. But practically, we can't really understand the meaning of prayers for one's faith 'cause other beliefs use praying as just praising their God and other as mere rituals.

I agree with you're point that God (in general) has the true reasons for granting or not granting your prayers(if you're praying to ask).

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by JorgeHTQH

Prayer works! who answers depends on who you're serving.

So, you would say that all prayer that goes unanswered or answered contrary to your hopes is because you ask outside the will of god?

Is this not fatlism?

Consider: I have a request, X. My request will be granted if it's according to god's will, otherwise it will not. Let's say it's according to god's will. I pray, and get my answer. Praise god!

Let's say I don't ask for it. It's still god's will, therefore it still happens. Huh.

What then would be the point of bothering with prayer? God is going to do what he wants either way. Or for those who want to leave god out of it, life is what it is either way.

When prayer is seen as presenting requests (my will) for the purpose of getting assistance or blessing, it becomes a pointless exercise, in my view. Worse than that: it becomes an ego-infested basis for bragging. I got that car I asked for! God loves me more than you! Nyah!

On the other hand if it becomes a tool for figuring out what is best and right in a situation, then it has value. I would like a car. Is this a need or a want? Is this in alignment with what God wants? Prayer then becomes a mental hook, a way of submitting your often conflicted and unwise desires to a higher purpose, whatever you conceive that to be.

I have come to the conclusion that whether you have the idea that this higher purpose is the god of the Bible or your higher self or better judgment or some less personal principle like life or reality or wisdom, makes little difference. Whether you call this "prayer" or "meditation" or "contemplation" or "trying to objectively consider what is best in the long run for the good of all" also makes little difference.

--Bob

[pianoperformer]

Bob, I think that may only be the case if you see prayer as just a way to ask God for whatever you want. I think that's extremely disrespectful to God, though.

I think it's better to pray for non-worldly things, like to better serve Him, strength to get through whatever trials you have, and wisdom to choose the path He has chosen for you.

Asking Him for what you want is just giving materialism a spiritual twist. It is much better to switch around the focus from yourself, to Him, and making sure your life is in alignment with Him.

[Elrond]

^ Let us know how it goes with that, if you pray and that is how you pray.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Bob, I think that may only be the case if you see prayer as just a way to ask God for whatever you want. I think that's extremely disrespectful to God, though.

I think it's better to pray for non-worldly things, like to better serve Him, strength to get through whatever trials you have, and wisdom to choose the path He has chosen for you.

Asking Him for what you want is just giving materialism a spiritual twist. It is much better to switch around the focus from yourself, to Him, and making sure your life is in alignment with Him.

I think you ended up repeating my final point, just adding some religious terms to it. I said that prayer is not a cosmic candy machine. So did you.

I do however take some exception to the dichotomy between "worldly" and "non-worldly". We currently live in this world, so it's totally understandable that we have worldly concerns. If that makes god uncomfortable, he is free to take us out of the world, yet he doesn't -- so I assume it's not an issue for him.

We have legitimate needs. If the Biblical god actively and meaningfully loves and cares about us, then how would it be disrespectful, particularly considering that he invites it, for us to come to him with those legitimate needs? Needs for hope, enlightenment, guidance, and some reasonable degree of security and peace. And how would it be arrogant or unreasonable to expect him to respond?

In my experience the prayers that get answered are the ones that god gets credit for, and the ones that don't get answered or for which the answers are painful, our sin nature gets credit for. Seems asymmetrical to me.

Might it be that "whatever you want" is not quite as automatically unworthy as you make it out to be? Perhaps it could use refinement and balance and perspective, but I don't think you should disrespect yourself to the point where anything you personally desire is suspect. After all, you were created with needs and desires, presumably for a purpose. It would not make sense for god to create you with a desire, a hope, a dream, an aspiration, and then to automatically invalidate that because it's in any way about you.

It falls into the "so heavenly minded it's no earthly good" department if you ask me.

It's also terribly convenient. If I only ask for incredibly vague things like "to better serve him", how will I know when I've gotten an answer? If all I ever get is the ability to endure trials, rather than truly overcome or transcend them, then how is my life different, precisely, from the unwashed, ungodly masses?

If I have the wisdom to choose what god has already decreed must be, that has some value in that I won't suffer from having my will out of sync with his, but it's not exactly motivational in practical ways, either.

Maybe I'm not supposed to ask "where's the percentage in it? How will it improve my life?" But my life is all I've currently got, and I am interested in meaningful improvements ... so shoot me.

--Bob

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I do however take some exception to the dichotomy between "worldly" and "non-worldly". We currently live in this world, so it's totally understandable that we have worldly concerns. If that makes god uncomfortable, he is free to take us out of the world, yet he doesn't -- so I assume it's not an issue for him.

We have legitimate needs. If the Biblical god actively and meaningfully loves and cares about us, then how would it be disrespectful, particularly considering that he invites it, for us to come to him with those legitimate needs? Needs for hope, enlightenment, guidance, and some reasonable degree of security and peace. And how would it be arrogant or unreasonable to expect him to respond?

You misunderstand my definition of worldly. Maybe I should have used the term material, instead. Our wants for material things. I do think it's quite selfish of us to request those material things, especially those things we just simply desire, but don't need, especially when we only ask ask ask and never thank God for what we do have, or to just praise Him. It's a bit like a one-sided relationship.

I pray for guidance all the time. I pray for assistance. I pray when I don't see a way out of a bad situation. I pray for wisdom to know which path to choose.

I don't pray for good grades, or more money, or thing sthat don't really matter.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

In my experience the prayers that get answered are the ones that god gets credit for, and the ones that don't get answered or for which the answers are painful, our sin nature gets credit for. Seems asymmetrical to me.

I think you are choosing to see it that way, because I certainly don't.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Might it be that "whatever you want" is not quite as automatically unworthy as you make it out to be? Perhaps it could use refinement and balance and perspective, but I don't think you should disrespect yourself to the point where anything you personally desire is suspect. After all, you were created with needs and desires, presumably for a purpose. It would not make sense for god to create you with a desire, a hope, a dream, an aspiration, and then to automatically invalidate that because it's in any way about you.

It falls into the "so heavenly minded it's no earthly good" department if you ask me.

Again you misunderstand. I said I realize it's not about me, not that I had to totally ignore my own needs or desires. I am just saying we need to take into consideration the big picture. If you (general you, not you as an individual) knew who God is, and knew His magnificence and grandeur, and really had that feeling and knowledge in the core of your being and in your heart, do you think you would really ask him for a car, or more money, or anything of the sort? The Bible talks a lot about the fear of God. I don't think it's fear, per se, but the greatest reverence for God.

Of course, exceptions would include if you didn't have a car, or your car was broken down and you really needed one, or if you were poor and really needed money for something. That's obviously different.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

It's also terribly convenient. If I only ask for incredibly vague things like "to better serve him", how will I know when I've gotten an answer? If all I ever get is the ability to endure trials, rather than truly overcome or transcend them, then how is my life different, precisely, from the unwashed, ungodly masses?

If I have the wisdom to choose what god has already decreed must be, that has some value in that I won't suffer from having my will out of sync with his, but it's not exactly motivational in practical ways, either.

Maybe I'm not supposed to ask "where's the percentage in it? How will it improve my life?" But my life is all I've currently got, and I am interested in meaningful improvements ... so shoot me.

--Bob

Unfortunately, Bob, that is something you'll never understand until you experience God for yourself. Yes, I realize you were raised as a Christian, but you've never, so far as I know from your posts, experienced God.

You'll have to take my word for it that it makes a huge difference in your life. You mostly do the same things, but from an entirely different perspective and outlook. God pervades all of your life.

I've committed my entire life to God. I've told God that He could do with me as He liked, because He's far more capable to manage it than I am. It's a little scary to do that, but there's also great freedom and relief, at the same time.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

You misunderstand my definition of worldly. Maybe I should have used the term material, instead. Our wants for material things. I do think it's quite selfish of us to request those material things, especially those things we just simply desire, but don't need, especially when we only ask ask ask and never thank God for what we do have, or to just praise Him. It's a bit like a one-sided relationship.

I will go along with that in principle. It gets a little hairy drawing the line, as there are always those eager to judge you for the worthiness of your desires, but it's true that in the West especially we consider so many things to be necessities that aren't.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I don't pray for good grades, or more money, or things that don't really matter.

Thou art wise.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I think you are choosing to see it that way, because I certainly don't.

I'm simply relating my experience and real-world observations of how people do not regard answered vs unanswered prayer in the same way. Not necessarily how you or other specific Christians might do it, or how I might have in my praying days.

I am reading a memoir right now of a woman who lost her husband to cancer, and she makes this remark: "The big questions always bounce back from God". I admire her willingness to admit that and to sit honestly with it instead of saying that God moves in mysterious ways or that everything works together for the good or nothing will separate us from the love of god or we will understand someday, etc. I also admire her saying this matter of factly and without bitterness.

It just is what it is.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

If you (general you, not you as an individual) knew who God is, and knew His magnificence and grandeur, and really had that feeling and knowledge in the core of your being and in your heart, do you think you would really ask him for a car, or more money, or anything of the sort? The Bible talks a lot about the fear of God. I don't think it's fear, per se, but the greatest reverence for God.

Fair enough. I doubt either of us have ever asked god for trivialities. But the words we use to frame our thinking are important. What you need, even if it happens to be physical or temporal, is not inherently bad. What your body wants, is not inherently bad either. That way lies asceticism. I'm glad we're both clear on that.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Unfortunately, Bob, that is something you'll never understand until you experience God for yourself. Yes, I realize you were raised as a Christian, but you've never, so far as I know from your posts, experienced God.

It is ironic that I would have said precisely that to someone outside the church, many moons ago.

I don't really see that I haven't experienced god, though; it's just not the experience you expect or have had. Sorry about that; it's still a valid experience.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

You'll have to take my word for it that it makes a huge difference in your life. You mostly do the same things, but from an entirely different perspective and outlook. God pervades all of your life.

I don't really have to take your word for it. I was where you are, long ago. I am where you likely will be, some decades hence.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I've committed my entire life to God. I've told God that He could do with me as He liked, because He's far more capable to manage it than I am. It's a little scary to do that, but there's also great freedom and relief, at the same time.

Ironic. I once felt he was far more capable to manage my life than I was, too. Eventually I figured out it doesn't work that way. He is no doubt capable, but he will not manage your life for you. He expects you to manage it yourself and has gifted you with what you need to accomplish that.

At the end of the day I think I am coming to regard those gifts of insight and guidance as internal and integral to me while you are coming to regard them as external to yourself. My current working theory is that an impersonal, indifferent god has given me the tools I need and the ability to learn how to use them. Yours, more or less (correct me if I'm wrong) is that a personal, involved god progressively gives you the tools in real time according to the need of the moment if you look to him for them, and will teach you how to use them.

Your view is comforting when and as long as it happens to work. Where I think I will come out ahead is that I will not, going forward, have to waste time and life force reconciling the god story with the various wasteland experiences that arise in life. For me, at least, it becomes too personal and I waste energy on feeling betrayed or let down. I would rather blame myself or the vicissitudes of life than to wonder anymore where god was in my hour of greatest need, or where he might be off to the next time.

You think it's scary to trust god all the way. I on the other hand had to contemplate trusting myself after being used to the idea of trusting god and that was scary at first. But now, I'm finding that I am much more reliable. When I need me, I'm invariably there. I never have to cry out within myself, "Oh, Bob, I need you, help me." and hope that something happens. Sometimes of course I just have to say to myself, "Well Bob, I got nothing here ... no idea how to proceed. Not even a hunch". But then at least I know where I stand. And even in that situation, I feel much more confident and loved.

[shrug] To each their own.

--Bob

[raphnix]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I've committed my entire life to God. I've told God that He could do with me as He liked, because He's far more capable to manage it than I am. It's a little scary to do that, but there's also great freedom and relief, at the same time.

Have you read the book Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren? Based from your faith and devotion, you're more likely to have found you're true purpose.