The Will of god?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by revolution

I am talking about doing the will of God

I took this statement from another thread as I find it interesting that one can justify one's behaviour through doing the will of god. I've heard this reason/excuse from positions of power and from positions of weakness.

If god exists and has a will, what is it and how would you know?

[Akashic_Librarian]

The only will of God is your own. To give creedance to a will outside of yourself is just stupid. And should be ridiculed as such.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Maguru

If god exists...

That's the first question, isn't it? Does God exist? If so, what kind of God? How would we define him/her/it/they? If we had a definition, how would we know if it is true? Would we need to know with certainty, or would believing without certainty (aka faith) be enough? And what do we mean by existence and how would that apply to this being we're calling God?

You're right. I can see how this kind of question could be very confusing. Maybe not to you, but to some.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

The only will of God is your own.

How do you know?

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

To give creedance to a will outside of yourself is just stupid. And should be ridiculed as such.

It sounds like you have rather strong beliefs. How do you know they are true? How do you know others are wrong? Why should others be ridiculed for holding different beliefs, neither of which can be proven empirically, and both of which are based on faith? Finally, why are such people with different beliefs, stupid?

[pianoperformer]

@maguru:

I guess it depends on one's beliefs. One can pray to follow God's will and entrust everything to Him. Things just tend to work out that way.

As for the quote you posted, we have no contextual information, so it's hard to say what was meant.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Maguru

...I find it interesting that one can justify one's behaviour through doing the will of god. I've heard this reason/excuse from positions of power and from positions of weakness.

If god exists and has a will, what is it and how would you know?

Well ... logically, if you believe you know god's will, then you would want to follow it and encourage others to do so.

Interestingly, you can accuse someone of gross arrogance for claiming to know god's will, and you can also make the same accusation against someone who says, as did the Librarian in this thread, that their will alone is supreme.

I look at it this way. If god gave a fig about us following his will, he's perfectly capable of making his will so thoroughly obvious that there would be no widespread ambiguity about what it was.

Yet, everyone's got a different story. God wants you to be loving. God wants you to kill his enemies. God wants you to speak in tongues. God wants you to take a vow of poverty. God wants you to be fabulously wealthy and successful and confident. God wants you to accept Jesus as your personal savior and spend eternity with him forever. Jesus is just another prophet and this is just another of an endless cycle of lives and god wants you to get enlightened in dribs and drabs. And on it goes, ad nauseum.

At some point, anything connected with god, including his will, requires that you accept something as an article of faith. Generally, (a) the existence and nature of god and (b) some holy book or tradition to frame some kind of interpretation of (a).

So ... I consider it Information Unobtanium (tm) and I speak as one who has pretty much spent his life searching for God's will, caring about God's will, and wanting God's will. Funny thing is, it turned out to be a convenient way not to pay attention to what I want or don't want and I'm experiencing self-discovery that probably should have happened three or four decades ago. And there has always been a bunch of people willing to stand in line to tell me what I should or shouldn't do, generally in the guise of god's will or some law of the universe or something. I suspect this has just all been absolutely nothing more than a great big distraction from taking responsibility for my own life.

At the end of the day, everything I've ever heard about the will of god has been other people's stories and beliefs. Pick a story you like and run with it. Works as well as anything else does.

--Bob

[Akashic_Librarian]

We obviously cannot know. However those who claim to "know" of a will outside of our own require proof. If they cannot show proof then I cannot believe them. Simple.

If a man comes up to me in the street and insists that there is a flying dragon orbiting earth I would ask for proof, if he cannot give it to me, then I consider him crazy, I am sure you would too, so tell me how is the belief in God any different? A lie, just because it is believed by many, does not make it any more than a popular lie.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

We obviously cannot know. However those who claim to "know" of a will outside of our own require proof. If they cannot show proof then I cannot believe them. Simple.

If a man comes up to me in the street and insists that there is a flying dragon orbiting earth I would ask for proof, if he cannot give it to me, then I consider him crazy, I am sure you would too, so tell me how is the belief in God any different? A lie, just because it is believed by many, does not make it any more than a popular lie.

One can "know" experientially for one's self. But people very often make the mistake of taking their personal revelation and cramming it down the unwilling throats of others. The need to tell others about your personal beliefs appears irresistible. God has no grandchildren; yet we have trouble "getting" that concept.

If I believe in a "will outside my own" then I have somehow or other met my internal standard of proof. It is impertinent to expect you or anyone else to accept that revelation without the inner proof I have. Therefore it's fairly pointless to cite that will to others in justifying my actions. To others, I think we have to accept responsibility and say "this is my will" even if internally we are saying to whatever we conceive to be god, "my will is one with yours".

--Bob

[pianoperformer]

@Akashic_Librarian

As is your right. It doesn't make them stupid, though, nor should they be ridiculed. You believe God does not exist, which is an admission of faith itself. Obviously others disagree for their own reasons. Many intelligent people are religious, so apparently faith in God is not an admission of stupidity.

Some things require faith. Everyone has faith in something or another (not necessarily supernatural, just in general). The matter of God is one of those things, so you will never receive your proof.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

The only will of God is your own. To give creedance to a will outside of yourself is just stupid. And should be ridiculed as such.

I believe the concept of 'god's will' is used as an excuse to follow one's own agenda in many areas of power and is more acceptable coming from god.
However, most believers go about their daily lives thinking they are carrying out god's will but can't say exactly what it is.

Why? Is there a motive and an expected reward or is it fear based?

[Akashic_Librarian]

There is no proof of the existence of the abrahamic God. NO proof. I understand some people consider their interal revelations as objective proof. This is what I choose to ridicule.

I also choose to ridicule people like The Archbishop of Cantebury, or The Pope, or any politician stupid to claim their allegiance to God.

Furthermore I ridicule those people who claim I a going to hell, or claim that anything that occurs in their life is The Will of God, as if thats an answer.

What I am trying to express here is that I have no problem with people who choose to privately and quietly believe in nonsense, it's fine by me. However I do not expect to have it in my school, or my government, or even my workplace. No thanks, not for me.

If you insist on calling everything the will of God, then I don't want to know. I, frankly, choose to intellectually search for the answer, because I don't know. I am a fundamental agnostic, I don't know, you don't know, and if you think differently your an infadel pig...isn't that how fundamentalism works? Oh my mistake.

In my opinion anyone who claims they "know" the will of God, or can offer a concrete answer as to why something happened, then they are wrong, dangerously so, and should be treated as such.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

@maguru:

I guess it depends on one's beliefs. One can pray to follow God's will and entrust everything to Him. Things just tend to work out that way.

As for the quote you posted, we have no contextual information, so it's hard to say what was meant.

Even if one prays to follow god's will, how would one know if it's god's will or just one's own?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

There is no proof of the existence of the abrahamic God. NO proof. I understand some people consider their interal revelations as objective proof. This is what I choose to ridicule.

I also choose to ridicule people like The Archbishop of Cantebury, or The Pope, or any politician stupid to claim their allegiance to God.

Furthermore I ridicule those people who claim I a going to hell, or claim that anything that occurs in their life is The Will of God, as if thats an answer.

What I am trying to express here is that I have no problem with people who choose to privately and quietly believe in nonsense, it's fine by me. However I do not expect to have it in my school, or my government, or even my workplace. No thanks, not for me.

If you insist on calling everything the will of God, then I don't want to know. I, frankly, choose to intellectually search for the answer, because I don't know. I am a fundamental agnostic, I don't know, you don't know, and if you think differently your an infadel pig...isn't that how fundamentalism works? Oh my mistake.

In my opinion anyone who claims they "know" the will of God, or can offer a concrete answer as to why something happened, then they are wrong, dangerously so, and should be treated as such.

Why do you think of them as wrong and dangerous?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Its just one of my little prejudices against people. I know its old fashioned and archaic but I am one of those damnable people who just require proof, you know, REAL proof, not "The Bible says so", or "Faith doesn't need proof", I know its strange isn't it?

The reason people are dangerous is this: When you KNOW completely and absolutely that something is real you become arrogant and close-minded. You start to have these delusions of granduer and you start to make rules like, if your gay, you get stoned, if your a women, you get treated like property, if your an atheist your the spawn of the devil and should be treated as such, if you disagree with a certain belief, YOUR wrong, and there is no way to reconcile it.

Maybe I am wrong? Who knows, thats the fun of being Atheistically-Agnostic. I don't believe in an invisible man, nor do I believe in a vindictive force, I am open-minded about it. I don't know, you don't know. Deal with it. Its fun to think of, sure. Whoo awesome, God is so cool. Yeah...until you get cancer. then "Its all for a reason", its all good until Gays get killed, its all in jest until atheists are not allowed to serve as politicians for fear of ridicule.

So THATS why they are dangerous and stupid. Because you don't get hoards of angry Atheists demanding to behead those who insult common sense, or to make sure we deon't have Christmas because it might offend those Atheists who don't worship CHRISTmas...

Anyway...thats why.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

There is no proof of the existence of the abrahamic God. NO proof. I understand some people consider their interal revelations as objective proof. This is what I choose to ridicule.

There is no proof for a lot of things that you choose to believe in. If you love someone, you can't empirically prove to me that you love that person. You can't prove to me your emotions. It is just that because everyone experiences such things, no one questions their reality.

Some people experience God just as tangibly as you might experience love, or some emotion; sometimes, it might be stronger. Why do you think you have the right to ridicule them for their own experience?

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I also choose to ridicule people like The Archbishop of Cantebury, or The Pope, or any politician stupid to claim their allegiance to God.

Why?

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Furthermore I ridicule those people who claim I a going to hell, or claim that anything that occurs in their life is The Will of God, as if thats an answer.

An answer for what?

Why do you think you can judge if they think something is the will of God? You don't even think God exists, have never experienced God, so don't know if one can be so confident in such things.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

What I am trying to express here is that I have no problem with people who choose to privately and quietly believe in nonsense, it's fine by me. However I do not expect to have it in my school, or my government, or even my workplace. No thanks, not for me.

See, you're calling it nonsense again. What if I call your beliefs nonsense?

Also, who ever mentioned having it in the workplace or anywhere else public? However, it must be said that some moral baseline is used in government or in public in general, so refusing to allow religion in the public is professing one belief to be superior to another. Why should we have your beliefs in the public?

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

If you insist on calling everything the will of God, then I don't want to know. I, frankly, choose to intellectually search for the answer, because I don't know. I am a fundamental agnostic, I don't know, you don't know, and if you think differently your an infadel pig...isn't that how fundamentalism works? Oh my mistake.

The only one judging or putting down anyone else right now is you. You may search for the answer however you see fit, but please accept that others may search quite differently than you, but that their methods may be just as valid.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

In my opinion anyone who claims they "know" the will of God, or can offer a concrete answer as to why something happened, then they are wrong, dangerously so, and should be treated as such.

Dangerously so? Like I said, it is a matter of faith, just as you have faith in various things. Everyone has faith, even if not in religion. How can you label someone as dangerously wrong for something as you said, can not be proven / falsified?

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Even if one prays to follow god's will, how would one know if it's god's will or just one's own?

I don't know, but I imagine it is just a matter of faith. I'm not sure I'm even comfortable with saying something is the will of God, unless it is specifically stated in one's religion as being so (in the Bible, for instance), but I think it's great to pray for God's will to be done. One should never intentionally try to go against God's will.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Its just one of my little prejudices against people. I know its old fashioned and archaic but I am one of those damnable people who just require proof, you know, REAL proof, not "The Bible says so", or "Faith doesn't need proof", I know its strange isn't it?

That's fine, for you.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

The reason people are dangerous is this: When you KNOW completely and absolutely that something is real you become arrogant and close-minded. You start to have these delusions of granduer and you start to make rules like, if your gay, you get stoned, if your a women, you get treated like property, if your an atheist your the spawn of the devil and should be treated as such, if you disagree with a certain belief, YOUR wrong, and there is no way to reconcile it.

Maybe that is your experience of such people, but that doesn't mean it is the norm, or that everyone is like that.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Maybe I am wrong? Who knows, thats the fun of being Atheistically-Agnostic. I don't believe in an invisible man, nor do I believe in a vindictive force, I am open-minded about it. I don't know, you don't know. Deal with it. Its fun to think of, sure. Whoo awesome, God is so cool. Yeah...until you get cancer. then "Its all for a reason", its all good until Gays get killed, its all in jest until atheists are not allowed to serve as politicians for fear of ridicule.

You believe you don't know. Others believe they do, and you can't tell them they actually can't know. Again, to them, it is just as real as any other experience.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

So THATS why they are dangerous and stupid. Because you don't get hoards of angry Atheists demanding to behead those who insult common sense, or to make sure we deon't have Christmas because it might offend those Atheists who don't worship CHRISTmas...

Really? You seem quite angry. I've seen fundamentalist Atheists who were very angry and insulting. Remember the whole thing with trying to take "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance, or taking prayer out of schools?

There are the extremists on both sides. It doesn't mean they represent the whole, nor that the whole is stupid or dangerous.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

So THATS why they are dangerous and stupid. Because you don't get hoards of angry Atheists demanding to behead those who insult common sense, or to make sure we deon't have Christmas because it might offend those Atheists who don't worship CHRISTmas...

I, too, am an agnostic, and value the concept of open mindedness about what we can't objectively know. Although you don't sound like you're exactly keeping an open mind.

At any rate, I do not share your rosy view of atheists. People of faith have been beheaded by bug-eyed atheists at approximately the same rate as the inverse. People of faith are as capable of loving and merciful behavior as atheists and agnostics. You have displaced what should be a healthy respect for the nearly infinite capacity of human beings for self-deception and irrationality and narcissism, onto believers in god. This probably gives you a false sense of security and allows you a certain smugness about the superiority of the belief system in which you have faith, but it does not actually enlighten you.

Were Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Amin, Hussein or any of the other genocidal absolute rulers leading a faith movement? I don't think so. In fact, some Christians have used exactly your argument to suggest that agnostics and atheists are dangerous and stupid.

It's been my observation that agnostics and, especially, atheists, tend to be very bitter and angry people. Either they are secretly angry at god and can't admit it even to themselves, or they are jealous of believers for the comfort and peace their own beliefs don't give them, or they are just arrogant asses who like to feel superior.

On the other hand there are some atheists, such as the philosopher Andre Compte-Sponville, who dare to understand people of faith and grant them the respect they desire for themselves, and who have made a credible effort to evolve worldviews that are virtuous and loving and hopeful even though they don't include belief in god. I applaud that effort. One of the things that kept me trapped in a belief system that was ill-suited to me for way too long was the "slippery slope" argument that without god I would devolve into some kind of hateful and/or despairing person.

Perhaps I feel the way I do because, although I have left the realm of faith and consider it toxic to me personally, I can see its value for some people at the right point in their lives and have known wonderfully kindly and loving people who come out of that tradition who, while believing things I can no longer accept, do not take their faith that seriously that I am a threat to them. We agnostics should be able to do at least as well as that. I don't consider people of faith as a group to be either stupid or a threat to my beliefs. Certain ones, perhaps ... but I realize that it cuts both ways and that my camp has its share of bigots, too.

--Bob

[pianoperformer]

@SonoranBob,

Excellent post. I applaud your attempt at remaining objective and unbiased.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Maybe I am wrong? Who knows, thats the fun of being Atheistically-Agnostic. I don't believe in an invisible man, nor do I believe in a vindictive force, I am open-minded about it.

You don't sound open-minded at all -- you sound as interventionist as the people you object to. You say, "Maybe I am wrong?" but in the context of your messages it is clear that you believe you are right and everyone who believes otherwise is wrong.

I think that the likelihood of the existence of a personal interventionist god is so infinitesimal as to be insignificant. And there are people, I know, who believe I should be punished for thinking that way. But I can't see how my inflicting punishment on them for not thinking as I do can have any positive impact on me, others, or the world. It's just more of the same -- more of what doesn't work.

Declaring that people who believe in a personal interventionist god *should* be ridiculed is exactly parallel to declaring that people who don't *should* be oppressed. The harder you resist something, the more thoroughly you become it.

[Akashic_Librarian]

OK first to the above poster who mentioned Love as an unobjective feeling. The problem with love is that it is an internal thing, when I say "I love you" I don't mean that i am calling upon the force of some external "Love God", I am talking about love the feeling. However when people talk about God they actually mean God, the thing. Which I believe is stupid.

Furthermore, as I have already said, and will say again, I am not talking about a quiet, unobtrusive belief. You are free to believe in the Celestial teapot, or the flying spaghetti monster or God, it really doesn't bother me, honestly. If you can give me proof, real proof, or the means to get that proof, observable, testable proof, then I will believe you. I will apologize for all my insults and give my life to God.

As it turns out, I don't see anyone offering anything other than "Its all about faith", well...life isn't about faith. Life is about taking always moving forward, making conscious choices. I don't see how a person can make a conscious choice when they believe ultimately they are controlled by an external force.

I don't happen to believe utopia is achieved through integration of ideas, I believe we as a society have to evolve past ideas, especially ones like religion, its a poison that might seem all happy and joyful on the face, but in the end it turns out to be Pennywise the Clown.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

As it turns out, I don't see anyone offering anything other than "Its all about faith", well...life isn't about faith. Life is about taking always moving forward, making conscious choices. I don't see how a person can make a conscious choice when they believe ultimately they are controlled by an external force.

I don't think "controlled" is the right word -- I haven't ever met a religious person who believes that god "controls" them. Is it so hard to see that within the context of religion, which the faithful find to be an empowering context, the faithful consider themselves to be moving forward and making conscious choices? Sometimes they go unconscious, sure, but that doesn't have anything to do with their faith. They just fall asleep, much like you do; thinking that their way is the only right way.

You have complained in other threads about being controlled by an external force: that is, the great feminist machine. How can you make a conscious choice when you believe that? (What's that? "Because the great feminist machine REALLY DOES EXIST"? ) Same thing, really. It's just a context you're living in; not right or wrong -- perhaps limiting when you feel you're not free to live within any other context (e.g., because My Way is the Right Way ). In my context, that's the game of being human: expanding into who we really are, expanding more and more into lives we love. People can do that believing in god, and you can do that believing men are oppressed. Or not, if you don't want to!

[Akashic_Librarian]

Good point Angela, but Feminsim is a tangible thing, something I can eventaully affect, something I can control. God is by the definition of many religious folk, unknowable, so it can't, by definition be controlled, it can only control.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Were Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Amin, Hussein or any of the other genocidal absolute rulers leading a faith movement? I don't think so.

Hitler --> Christian.
Stalin --> Marxist.
Mussolini --> Baptized as a Catholic for political reasons.
Amin --> Islamic.
Hussein --> C'mon. He had the Koran written in his own blood.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

It's been my observation that agnostics and, especially, atheists, tend to be very bitter and angry people. Either they are secretly angry at god and can't admit it even to themselves, or they are jealous of believers for the comfort and peace their own beliefs don't give them, or they are just arrogant asses who like to feel superior.

Maybe it's because ignorant religious people constantly try to ruin my country and deny me equal rights in the name of their imaginary Gods?

Maybe that's it?

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I am not talking about a quiet, unobtrusive belief. You are free to believe in the Celestial teapot, or the flying spaghetti monster or God, it really doesn't bother me, honestly. If you can give me proof, real proof, or the means to get that proof, observable, testable proof, then I will believe you. I will apologize for all my insults and give my life to God.

This begs some questions.

Since you are not being "quiet and unobstrusive" in your unbelief, in what sense are you not applying a double standard? If a believer talks matter of factly in a non-proselytizing manner about their beliefs, are they to be shut up? Why not you then, when you are talking not so matter of factly about your terror of faith in god?

Or are you simply objecting to pompadoured televangelists and other obnoxious Bible thumpers? I don't get that from what you've written so far, though. I think you find faith in god, to paraphrase Ralph Nader, "unsafe at any speed". If true, then isn't it even more dangerous when driven underground to fester quietly? Why is it dangerous only if spoken openly about? I would think the inverse would be true. At least then you know what the nefarious bastards are up to.

It might profit you to ask yourself why it isn't enough to simply disagree with belief in god, but to attack it and label it and mock it. Take back your projection. Why is it bothering you so much? Could it be, for instance, that you fear losing your sanity if you can't quantify and "prove" everything that you admit as even a possibility?

Agnosticism, to me, is all about being comfortable with ambiguity. Recognizing that we don't and can't know everything as scientifically (dis)provable, and that's okay. It seems to me that you are rejecting one god for another. You've ditched any concept of a supreme being or any other higher consciousness outside yourself, in exchange for deifying your own reason.

Personally, I have not found my own reason that infallible. It's good enough for day to day purposes, better than most if I do say so myself, but limited compared to the vastness of the universe. I am willing to sit with the fact that there are some things that are unknowable in the way that I know I have brown eyes and black hair or what my property tax bill will be this December. That there may be other beings who exist someplace who have the intellectual and sensory equipment to see much farther and clearer than me. That I may (or may not) evolve to a higher plane eventually, and that until then, confident pronouncements and put downs may be premature.

In short, I have been humbled by life to operate within my scope with confidence, but outside my scope with a deep respect for the fact I'm probably in over my head.

I am not prepared to just go with whatever story I hear, even if I like it. But I am not prepared to mock it just because I don't like it, either.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I don't see how a person can make a conscious choice when they believe ultimately they are controlled by an external force.

I think you are absolutizing. Few religious people claim to be "controlled by an external force". They may claim knowledge of such a force, have trust in it, and a willingness to submit to the wisdom, mercy or even will of this force ... but the overwhelming majority of people of faith do not claim to be automatons. Most claim to be willing followers as a response to what they conceive of as a being that loves them.

I don't buy that, personally, but I won't misrepresent it, either.

I realize it has been perverted, but I won't use the perversions as an excuse to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Indeed, any truth worth knowing is being perverted somewhere, by someone.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

...religion [is] a poison that might seem all happy and joyful on the face, but in the end it turns out to be Pennywise the Clown.

It can. So can atheism. Both faith and un-faith have been responsible for the agonizing death of millions, and the suffering of tens of millions to the point they wished they weren't alive. This proves nothing about theism or atheism and everything about human nature.

God isn't going to save us.

Science isn't going to save us.

Reason isn't going to save us.

Transcending human nature is the only way forward. Faith, knowledge and reason have been available to mankind for millenia and mankind invariably perverts them. I don't pretend to know exactly how to transcend my nature, but I am quite sure it doesn't involve berating people I disagree with.

--Bob

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Good point Angela, but Feminsim is a tangible thing, something I can eventaully affect, something I can control. God is by the definition of many religious folk, unknowable, so it can't, by definition be controlled, it can only control.

Is that true? Feminism is just a thought system, isn't it? How can you touch or control a thought system?

People who believe in god feel they "know god" in just as real a way as how you "know feminism." Perhaps the faithful can't completely and thoroughly know god, but neither can you completely and thoroughly know feminism -- since it is comprised of thoughts in the heads of others. But they, like you, can get enough of a sense of it to use it as a context -- empowering or not -- in living their lives and taking their next right actions.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Hitler --> Christian.
Stalin --> Marxist.
Mussolini --> Baptized as a Catholic for political reasons.
Amin --> Islamic.
Hussein --> C'mon. He had the Koran written in his own blood.

None of those guys had the slightest faith in the actual tenents and teachings of whatever religion they at times hijacked for political purposes. Every one of them performed atrocities that were not endorsed, permitted, or encouraged by the source documents and teachings of whatever religion they happened to associate with.

They twisted the tenets of their "religion" when it suited them, and took advantage of fundamentalists interpretations, but I don't believe for a minute that their core driver was anything but lust for power. Megalomania does not require god but will cynically use god or whatever else is useful at hand.

--Bob

[Angela]

By the way, I am an atheist, and I'm not suggesting you must respect beliefs that fuel action that strikes you as harmful, or that you should turn the other cheek when interventionist practices interfere with your freedom.

I'm just saying: watch what gets you upset, and notice how it eats you -- you merge with it. Notice if your own thoughts and actions live inside of reaction or response.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

None of those guys had the slightest faith in the actual tenents and teachings of whatever religion they at times hijacked for political purposes.

You don't know what faith they really were. Do you.

What about the 9/11 bombers? They gave up their lives for their religion. You might call that perverted. They would call it faith.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Every one of them performed atrocities that were not endorsed, permitted, or encouraged by the source documents and teachings of whatever religion they happened to associate with.

There are plenty of atrocities recommended in both the Bible and and Koran. You don't have to look long or hard to find them.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

They twisted the tenets of their "religion" when it suited them, and took advantage of fundamentalists interpretations..

Exactly. They took advantage of people who believed in religion. Because those people are most easily manipulated. They are already trained to submit to external authorities.

And they got them to murder other people who... guess what? Believed in different religions.