The Warrior's Predicament

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Angela

It means YOU LIKE ME!!!!

Yes... yes it does.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

You want real examples of emotional suffering, as opposed to authentic pain? Let's see: one day I got mugged by some guys. It hurt! The next day, the authentic pain was gone, but my boyfriend suggested that it happened because of the way I was dressed, and the emotional suffering started to set in. I had all kinds of stories about how wrong he was for saying that, and how wrong men were for perpetrating violence against me, and how this and that .... but none of it was authentic pain. It was all pain that I was keeping alive by feeding myself stories. Talk about bull! And of course, when I stopped feeding myself the bull, the pain *poof!* disappeared.

Your boyfriends opinions had nothing to do with your experience. Was there no effects at all from the mugging itself?

I'm sorry, but I thought YOU believed that. You don't? I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Do you believe that suffering is NOT necessary, that it can be avoided, and that maybe it's undesirable?

You could not have misunderstood me, Angela because I never said that. It was your perception. However, denial of suffering by any means will change nothing.

There's a lot to learn from stories, but they don't determine how we feel -- WE do.

NO, what we do determines how we feel. It is a cycle that needs to change.

You delight me! Don't you know that? I will make it a point to say so more often. Delight is an emotion! One of my favorites, as a matter of fact.

Well it certainly wasn't my intention.

I don't feel emotionally disconnected, but I guess I am emotionally disconnected from what you say and think -- nothing you say or do upsets me, I mean. Would you prefer me to get upset?

You certainly are disconnected from what I say and think and especially from how I feel. Your feeling of delight couldn't be further than the truth. Where are you Angela? It reminds me of the roman emperor Nero who played the fiddle while Rome burned.

You know he wasn't an idiot. He was simply terrifed.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Your boyfriends opinions had nothing to do with your experience. Was there no effects at all from the mugging itself?

Sure. Like I said, it hurt -- for about a day or so. After that, it was all story.

You could not have misunderstood me, Angela because I never said that. It was your perception. However, denial of suffering by any means will change nothing.

Yes, my perception was that you were saying that suffering is necessary and unavoidable, and maybe even desirable. Again, I ask you, do you believe that suffering is NOT necessary, that it's avoidable, and it's not desirable? You could answer my questions; after all, I'm answering yours. And I sure don't deny suffering -- it's there alright! It's all over the place! I sure do accept that that is so.

NO, what we do determines how we feel. It is a cycle that needs to change.

Well, I reckon that thinking is a form of doing -- so it doesn't look like a disagreement there. But I definitely don't agree that there are any cycles that need to change.

You certainly are disconnected from what I say and think and especially from how I feel.

Again, if "disconnected" means I don't get upset by what you say, think, or feel, you are so right! As I mentioned, I am delighted by what you say, think and feel!

Your feeling of delight couldn't be further than the truth. Where are you Angela? It reminds me of the roman emperor Nero who played the fiddle while Rome burned. You know he wasn't an idiot. He was simply terrifed.

My feeling of delight couldn't be further from the truth? But if I were terrified, I would be closer to the truth? Hey, wait a second, you said you would be more than happy to get an emotional response from me! I gave you a delighted response -- where's the more-than-happy?

[Maguru]

Yes, my perception was that you were saying that suffering is necessary and unavoidable, and maybe even desirable. Again, I ask you, do you believe that suffering is NOT necessary, that it's avoidable, and it's not desirable? You could answer my questions; after all, I'm answering yours. And I sure don't deny suffering -- it's there alright! It's all over the place! I sure do accept that that is so.

Yes.
Do you answer mine?

My feeling of delight couldn't be further from the truth? But if I were terrified, I would be closer to the truth? Hey, wait a second, you said you would be more than happy to get an emotional response from me! I gave you a delighted response -- where's the more-than-happy?

I was hoping for a genuine response connected to the subject matter. What exactly is your delighted response to? I have not been addressing any delightful issues.
You seem to just choose a feeling out of thin air. Any feeling, appropriate or not.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes.
Do you answer mine?

Do you mean, "yes, suffering is not necessary, it's avoidable, and maybe not desirable?"

If so, why do you struggle so against my encouragement to let it go?

And yes, I've been going through and answering your questions -- that has been my purpose in quoting your questions and answering them. Have you not noticed that?

I was hoping for a genuine response connected to the subject matter. What exactly is your delighted response to? I have not been addressing any delightful issues. You seem to just choose a feeling out of thin air. Any feeling, appropriate or not.

And you got one! I am genuinely delighted by both the subject matter and you, personally. More specifically, being able to think here "out loud" -- outside the bones of my head, answering your questions about suffering and peace, allows me to examine my own beliefs, and to clarify for myself what I'm up to -- that is, Being Encouragement and Choosing Peace right here right now, regardless of external circumstance.

To me, the issues you've been addressing (people's responses to 9/11 and other challenging circumstances) are truly, madly, deeply delightful! Delightful because it's fun to watch what ways of being people choose out of all the myriad and endless possibilities. Even the choices that don't look like are working too well. And then you have the response to challenging circumstances by someone like Gene -- Wow! He is so powerful, and so delightful, in living the kind of life he wants to live, regardless of circumstance, regardless of stories of his past. We have such freedom! - even when we don't realize we are free I find that very delightful!

And you personally, you delight me with your words and thoughts because you're making free choices, too, and finding out how things go, and you seem to be so committed to personal growth. I am also delighted by the fact that I push your buttons -- because, as I've mentioned a thousand times or so, I believe that when our buttons are pushed, there is treasure available to us. I am pulling for you to get your treasure. That's why I ask you questions about those buttons. It's great fun, like watching a movie where you're rooting for the heroine!

By the way, I'd just like to point out that you just did to me exactly what you were complaining I had done to you: you dismissed my feelings (of delight) as being chosen "out of thin air" and suggesting it's inappropriate. It's no skin off my nose that you have done that, but don't you think it's interesting that the very thing that pushed your buttons (having your feelings dismissed) is something that you are generating for others? In my experience, that's something that happens all the time when buttons get pushed -- we generate for others exactly the quality that is bugging us for ourselves.

We are so powerful!

[Mato Kinze]

This thread is like a ring-side seat to an ontological sparring match....

Jab/duck, swing/sidestep....dance...dance...roll...

I love it.

Please Maguru... don't stop now, you're just getting started!

[Acting Like Godot]

All that is happening here is a disagreement between Angela & Maguru, and the disagreement concerns:

the extent to which one can choose one's emotional reaction to external situations.

Angela believes that the extent is very great. Maguru believes the extent is much smaller. That is all.

Personally I think that the extent varies greatly from individual to individual. One can however cultivate a greater capacity to choose one's emotions (and also thoughts) in response to external circumstances.

It is very difficult to say what kind of external conditions constitute "great suffering" or "minor suffering". It really depends on the individual. For example, we may think that it is a state of great suffering to be blind, yet the world has plenty of happy, blind people.

We may think that war represents great suffering, and yet every day there are people who commit suicide over problems like a failed relationship; or a lost job; or the lack of friends.

The fact that these people kill themselves over such matters could arguably suggest that they subjectively experienced GREATER suffering ....

.... than the millions of people who DID go through war, and fought hard to survive, and never committed suicide even though they COULD have.

Speaking of war stories, thought I'd share. This is an excerpt from my blog, where I'd written about my grandmother's war experiences:

http://godot2007.blogspot.com/2007/1...-standing.html

Turned on the radio to cheer myself up, a very old song came up and suddenly made me think of my grandmother, moving me to tears.

She was from Sarawak, East Malaysia. Married and had five kids. Then my grandfather left Sarawak to go to Singapore to work. No passenger planes in those days. Back in the 1930s/1940s it was a long way off and you had to take a primitive junk boat and sail for weeks through the perilous seas.

For a long time, there was no news from my grandfather (even the postal system was unreliable in those days). In the end, Grandma decided to pack her things and bring her kids to Singapore to look for her long-missing husband.

You can just imagine it - one woman, travelling with five kids to a strange land, not knowing anyone, not having much money, attempting to track down a missing husband.

To top it all off, the Second World War suddenly broke out when my grandma was in Singapore with her five kids. The Japanese invaded, the British lost, and tens of thousands of people were shot or beheaded and buried in mass graves.

My grandma took her 5 kids to hide in the jungle. She built a hut with her own bare hands. They scrounged for tapioca and bananas in the jungle, and tried to grew their own vegetables, collected firewood to make their own fire, drank rainwater. Bombs fell daily.

What a harsh life that must have been. Malaria, dysentery, dengue. And starvation.

My uncle - the oldest kid, probably nine or ten years old - occasionally stole food from a nearby Japanese warehouse. Once he got caught. The Japanese commander found out where he lived and brought his men to the little hut.

My grandmother thought that she and her kids were going to die. There was no escape. She came out of the hut and told the Japanese soldiers to kill her but spare her children.

Her courage impressed the Japanese commander. He bowed to her and left. Grandma and the children were left unharmed. Later that day, the Japanese commander instructed one of his soldiers to get a bag of rice and deliver it to the hut. From then on, every now and then, a Japanese soldier would bring a small bag of food to the hut and leave it by the doorstep. If he saw her, he would bow to her.

Many years later, my grandmother would tell me this story and conclude that "deep down inside, all people are good. Even the Japanese."

She was a very strong woman. She raised five children on her own, through the war years. All of them survived. After the war ended, she was reunited with my grandfather. They stayed on in Singapore and that is the story of how my family ended up here.

My father was one of the five wartime kids. By the time I was born, the war was, of course, old history. But I grew up with my grandmother and was very close to her. She was indeed an extremely strong woman. If things had to be done, they had to be done, and she would just do it. No complaints, no if's, no but's, no self-pity. To her, these were luxuries that she could not afford. And that was how she steered her family through all crises through the many years of her long life.

She was hardworking, determined, strong and she tolerated nonsense from no one - least of all, from herself.

When I was a little kid and afraid of things like the dark, ghosts, going to the toilet at night on my own and so on, Grandma would tell me lovingly, "Look at me, you silly boy, I am afraid of nothing, not even death. If you are bold, even ghosts will be afraid of you."

Today I think of my grandma and I am so proud of her and so ashamed of myself that a few tears are falling down my face as I type this. I am a silly boy and I still have a lot of growing up to do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Angela believes that the extent is very great. Maguru believes the extent is much smaller. That is all.

To be clear, I believe the extent to which a person can choose her response to external circumstances is not just very great, but total.

Personally I think that the extent varies greatly from individual to individual. One can however cultivate a greater capacity to choose one's emotions (and also thoughts) in response to external circumstances.

Again, just to be clear, I think everyone has the same capacity to choose one's thoughts (which guide emotions) in response to external circumstances, but not everyone has the same perceived capacity. In other words, some people don't know their own strength.

It is very difficult to say what kind of external conditions constitute "great suffering" or "minor suffering".

There are no gradations, from my point of view. If you're suffering, you're suffering, and there's no one's suffering that is greater or more minor than yours. (one's.)

I love your story, ALG, and I love your Grandma! She's a wonderful example of someone who is willing to stop suffering in its tracks, and not leave it as a legacy for future generations. In fact, it seems her legacy for you has been one of boldness, love, abundance, and joy. I am extremely grateful to her for having that impact on you (and therefore, me.)

[Liara Covert]

Another way to look at this is to imagine each human being creates levels of doubt, disbelief ,and fear that cover the base perception of truth and then, multiple layers of truth. Some people evolve to remove more layers of fear and doubt than other people. Every person has the potential and capacity to eliminate all of their own veils yet not everyone is emotionally ready to do this all at once, in stages or, even at all. This is why each person experiences a very personal process. Not everyone realizes or chooses to realize this process is part of a bigger process that relates to universal consciousness. That is another layer of truth.

[Angela]

Exactly, Liara! We're Onion Farmers.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Do you mean, "yes, suffering is not necessary, it's avoidable, and maybe not desirable?"

If so, why do you struggle so against my encouragement to let it go?

I believe prevention is better than cure.

And yes, I've been going through and answering your questions -- that has been my purpose in quoting your questions and answering them. Have you not noticed that?

No. You give me your opinions on some of the issues and become side tracked like feeling delighted with yourself.

And you got one! I am genuinely delighted by both the subject matter and you, personally. More specifically, being able to think here "out loud" -- outside the bones of my head, answering your questions about suffering and peace, allows me to examine my own beliefs, and to clarify for myself what I'm up to -- that is, Being Encouragement and Choosing Peace right here right now, regardless of external circumstance.

The example I gave of Nero was to show inappropriate behavioural response to a serious issue. When you look deeper, his behaviour was appropriate for his feelings. Likewise, your response has nothing to do with the issues we are discussing as you clearly demonstrate above and again...........

To me, the issues you've been addressing (people's responses to 9/11 and other challenging circumstances) are truly, madly, deeply delightful! Delightful because it's fun to watch what ways of being people choose out of all the myriad and endless possibilities. Even the choices that don't look like are working too well. And then you have the response to challenging circumstances by someone like Gene -- Wow! He is so powerful, and so delightful, in living the kind of life he wants to live, regardless of circumstance, regardless of stories of his past. We have such freedom! - even when we don't realize we are free I find that very delightful!

What about global responses to terrorism?

I too admire Gene but what about his father? What about the town's cruelty?What about the dead comrades' families? Gene is but one and if it was so simple, everyone would be happy little chappies.

And you personally, you delight me with your words and thoughts because you're making free choices, too, and finding out how things go, and you seem to be so committed to personal growth. I am also delighted by the fact that I push your buttons -- because, as I've mentioned a thousand times or so, I believe that when our buttons are pushed, there is treasure available to us. I am pulling for you to get your treasure. That's why I ask you questions about those buttons. It's great fun, like watching a movie where you're rooting for the heroine!

Angela, you don't even know what I am thinking. We don't need another hero and I am certainly not, nor wish to be.

By the way, I'd just like to point out that you just did to me exactly what you were complaining I had done to you: you dismissed my feelings (of delight) as being chosen "out of thin air" and suggesting it's inappropriate. It's no skin off my nose that you have done that, but don't you think it's interesting that the very thing that pushed your buttons (having your feelings dismissed) is something that you are generating for others? In my experience, that's something that happens all the time when buttons get pushed -- we generate for others exactly the quality that is bugging us for ourselves.

I do not dispute your feelings of delight are authentic but they have nothing to do with the issues, as you have explained in great detail and nothing to do with me. You skip the issues, and that which you think you see in me is a reflection of yourself as you well know.

I believe you when you say being mugged had no effect on you. My question is why not? I believe you when you say your boyfriend's opinions upset you. My question is why? I see in you who I used to be. I'll explain why. I don't usually reveal personal experiences of this kind and I still would rather not but I think it is appropriate in this case.

When I was 36yrs old, I was raped. It seemed to have no effect because I was more concerned with what my family thought of me and more concerned with their outrage and upset. My wounded self created a way to deal with the experience and that was to 'not think about it'. I didn't. I didn't talk about it. I was very positive. I now know for sure I did not respond to my feelings. I reacted to others.

The experience changed me at a subconscious level. It stripped me of my trust, my freedom, my rights, my world view and much more. It took years of quietly eating away at me before it surfaced. I know this effect is no way unique but it manifests uniquely. We cannot know what goes on in the subconscious. We can only witness the manifestations from it.

I did not see my own. I did not deal with my fear. With the help of a caring therapist, I have now but my daughters have not. This is the source of my suffering. My role as Mother. You believe I can choose to feel delighted at the damage done to my children through me?

You cannot choose to be happy. You either are or are not. You cannot choose to be encouraging. You either are or not. You cannot choose peace. You either are peace or you are not. Being is not choice.

Angela, I see the real beauty of our relationship in the form of opposite ends of the spectrum. However, we are not entirely opposite. On rare occasions your projection is spot on but do you really recognize yourself? You are forever commenting on who I am. It's not me. It's you.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I believe prevention is better than cure.

But you've been talking about people who are already suffering, not preventing people from suffering in the future. To me, it's the same thing: you recognize suffering as soon as you do, and you let it go as soon as you are ready. Or you don't -- you don't have to.

No. You give me your opinions on some of the issues and become side tracked like feeling delighted with yourself.

It looks like you have missed my many answers to your many questions. Even in that last post! Oh, well.

The example I gave of Nero was to show inappropriate behavioural response to a serious issue. When you look deeper, his behaviour was appropriate for his feelings. Likewise, your response has nothing to do with the issues we are discussing as you clearly demonstrate above and again...........

You're not dismissing my feelings as inappropriate again, are you?

What about global responses to terrorism?

What about it?

I too admire Gene but what about his father? What about the town's cruelty?What about the dead comrades' families? Gene is but one and if it was so simple, everyone would be happy little chappies.

As I mentioned before, letting go of suffering and choosing peace is simple, but it's not necessarily easy! And one thing I've learned is that not everyone is interested in being a happy little chappy. Some people are content with feeling bad. That's their choice, and I don't begrudge them that choice.

Angela, you don't even know what I am thinking. We don't need another hero and I am certainly not, nor wish to be.

No, I only know what you say, and what you say tickles me pink.

I do not dispute your feelings of delight are authentic but they have nothing to do with the issues, as you have explained in great detail and nothing to do with me. You skip the issues, and that which you think you see in me is a reflection of yourself as you well know.

Yes, you are my reflection, and I find you delightful.

I believe you when you say being mugged had no effect on you. My question is why not? I believe you when you say your boyfriend's opinions upset you. My question is why?

On the contrary, that's not what I said. I said being mugged hurt -- that is certainly an effect! An effect that lasted a day or so. Then I said my boyfriend said something, and I started to suffer. His opinions didn't upset me - it was my thoughts about his opinions that had me suffering. Unlike you, I didn't 'not think about it.' I thought about it, alright -- I got therapy*, I spoke with my friends and family and told them the story of my suffering, I thought about how much I was suffering when I was alone... I had lots and lots of story, let me tell you! I was quite fully self-expressed about what I was feeling. I didn't avoid thinking about it -- I WALLOWED in it.

When I was 36yrs old, I was raped. It seemed to have no effect because I was more concerned with what my family thought of me and more concerned with their outrage and upset. My wounded self created a way to deal with the experience and that was to 'not think about it'. I didn't. I didn't talk about it. I was very positive. I now know for sure I did not respond to my feelings. I reacted to others.

The experience changed me at a subconscious level. It stripped me of my trust, my freedom, my rights, my world view and much more. It took years of quietly eating away at me before it surfaced. I know this effect is no way unique but it manifests uniquely. We cannot know what goes on in the subconscious. We can only witness the manifestations from it.

Well, you sure have a lot of story.

This is the source of my suffering. My role as Mother. You believe I can choose to feel delighted at the damage done to my children through me?

Wait, are you saying your daughters are suffering because YOU were raped? That is quite a legacy!

You cannot choose to be happy. You either are or are not. You cannot choose to be encouraging. You either are or not. You cannot choose peace. You either are peace or you are not. Being is not choice.

Are you talkin' to ME? {Robert DeNiro smilie}. Well, I find it very amusing to find myself arguing for your limitless possibility and power, while you argue against it. But I concede: okay, yes, Maguru, you are stuck with what you've got. You are a limited being, and you have no choice in the matter of your life. Your way of being is just the cards you have been dealt, and that's that. If you and your daughters are suffering, if the 9/11 victims are suffering, it's a darn shame, because none of you has the least bit of power to choose anything else.

Of course, I don't believe any of that, but it was fun trying on that perspective.

Angela, I see the real beauty of our relationship in the form of opposite ends of the spectrum. However, we are not entirely opposite. On rare occasions your projection is spot on but do you really recognize yourself? You are forever commenting on who I am. It's not me. It's you.

You are right, it's me! And who I am is infinite power, joy, and abundance. Who I am is infinite choice in my way of being. Just like you, the face in my mirror.


*My first therapist wanted to have sex with me to help me get over my issues with men. That gave me a lot more story to suffer about, let me tell you! Now in retrospect, it makes me laugh, and that episode will surely go into my novel. (I know, I know; I should have sued and reaped millions! Drat.)

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Maguru

My wounded self created a way to deal with the experience and that was to 'not think about it'. I didn't. I didn't talk about it. I was very positive. I now know for sure I did not respond to my feelings. I reacted to others.

I know that this is not the LOA forum, but there is a LOA point here which could be useful. Lots of people think that to apply the LOA, the idea is to avoid thinking negative thoughts. This is too simplistic.

If you have negative thoughts occurring at the trivial level - eg ("I can't find my keys. And I'm late for work again. Oh damned @#$%^&%$#") - it is quite feasible to cut off those thoughts and refuse to entertain any further.

If however you have negative thoughts occurring at a deeper level, eg as a resut of a traumatic or very painful experience, then suppression is not the way to deal with them. You have to face those negative thoughts directly, and transform them.

Not ignore them, not suppress them, not repress them. But face them directly, and transform them.

In one of the key techniques of the Silva Method, for example, you go to alpha state and you then describe your own pain / suffering / traumatic experience to yourself. There is no running away. You pin down exactly the problem - eg "I was raped. It has messed me up. I am really hurting".

And it's from there - that you start transforming the thought. And you start transforming the reality.

[Angela]

Hey, yeah, ALG, what are you doing over here in a non-LoA forum? Who let you out of Intention-Manifestation? Just joshin' .... I LOVE hearing you speak where ever you speak. You and I sometimes run parallel to each other, so it's nice running into you!

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I do not dispute your feelings of delight are authentic but they have nothing to do with the issues.

[chuckle] Driving you batsh_t isn't it?

Angela, it would seem, is blessed with an extraordinary ability to choose her feelings, probably in part because her veins flow with generous amounts of dopamine. In my view she makes a mistake in generalizing this to those of us who are less easily amused.

Actually I don't disagree with Angela; theoretically, yes, despite relative degrees of difficulty that even she acknowledges at least in passing, anyone at any time can choose to (dis)believe any story and thus transcend suffering.

But I agree with her only theoretically. I have known people with all sorts of shorted out circuitry cabinets in their heads, lousy control of thoughts and emotions, and what they need is compassion and mercy, not a lecture about how they should quit choosing their stories. They can't even sort out stories from reality half the time.

Even if you have fairly ordered thinking, everyone has some kind of line in the sand that, if your experience takes you beyond it, you can easily spend years coming to terms with it, and to suggest that you should just flip a switch and "decide" to accept it can be very premature and counterproductive. You can only process so much change, loss, or whatever at once. Short circuiting that process can actually deny you growth opportunities. You don't want to take half-baked bread out of the oven.

Every once in awhile someone like Ekhart Tolle or Byron Katie makes a quantum leap because they come to the end of themselves. But, for every Ekhart or Byron I suspect there are at least a score of nameless people who simply passed into madness. They don't survive to write books and develop a following. And there are others who resolved their suffering only with much time and discipline.

In the messy world of actual people and real world circumstances, you can't always tie everything up in a bow and sprinkle happy dust on it and make it go away. And you can't explain difficulties entirely in terms of resistance or laziness or a fondness for self limiting thoughts.

Would that life were that simple ...

--Bob

[Angela]

Yup, like I've said... it's simple, but I never said it was easy!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I know that this is not the LOA forum, but there is a LOA point here which could be useful. Lots of people think that to apply the LOA, the idea is to avoid thinking negative thoughts. This is too simplistic.

If you have negative thoughts occurring at the trivial level - eg ("I can't find my keys. And I'm late for work again. Oh damned @#$%^&%$#") - it is quite feasible to cut off those thoughts and refuse to entertain any further.

If however you have negative thoughts occurring at a deeper level, eg as a resut of a traumatic or very painful experience, then suppression is not the way to deal with them. You have to face those negative thoughts directly, and transform them.

Not ignore them, not suppress them, not repress them. But face them directly, and transform them.

In one of the key techniques of the Silva Method, for example, you go to alpha state and you then describe your own pain / suffering / traumatic experience to yourself. There is no running away. You pin down exactly the problem - eg "I was raped. It has messed me up. I am really hurting".

And it's from there - that you start transforming the thought. And you start transforming the reality.

Thank goodness for some sanity. I summised that if positive conscious thoughts are creative as in LOA, then it stands to reason that so are negative subconscious thoughts. I believe these are the barriers to manifesting our heart's desires.

Ignoring, suppressing, etc, stores them but does not transform them. In fact, they grow. As you say we need to face them and it is here that we have to ask ourselves the hard questions and bring the painful emotions into consciousness. Those suffering in this way need a safe place to speak and to be heard. Your way of understanding is the key, I believe.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by angela

Yes, you are my reflection, and I find you delightful.

Children are delightful. I am not a child. I am not a delightful person and I have no need to be. You cannot receive delight from me when I do not have it. I cannot give you that which I do not have. Be honest and declare that you think you are delightful. I personally won't believe you because in my experience you are far from it but some will.

Originally Posted by angela

You are right, it's me! And who I am is infinite power, joy, and abundance. Who I am is infinite choice in my way of being. Just like you, the face in my mirror.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: narcissism


Mental disorder characterized by extreme self-absorption, an exaggerated sense of self-importance, and a need for attention and admiration from others. First identified by Havelock Ellis in 1898, the disorder is named for the mythological Narcissus, who fell in love with his own reflection. In addition to an inflated self-image and addiction to fantasy, narcissism is characterized by an unusual coolness and composure, which is shaken only when the narcissistic confidence is threatened, and by the tendency to take others for granted or to exploit them. According to Sigmund Freud, narcissism is a normal stage in children's development, but it is considered a disorder when it occurs after puberty.

This is me, Angela, except my reflection was pure heart-break. The only difference between you and I is that I am aware that I am.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

[chuckle] Driving you batsh_t isn't it?

YES!!

Angela, it would seem, is blessed with an extraordinary ability to choose her feelings, probably in part because her veins flow with generous amounts of dopamine. In my view she makes a mistake in generalizing this to those of us who are less easily amused.

Actually I don't disagree with Angela; theoretically, yes, despite relative degrees of difficulty that even she acknowledges at least in passing, anyone at any time can choose to (dis)believe any story and thus transcend suffering.

But I agree with her only theoretically. I have known people with all sorts of shorted out circuitry cabinets in their heads, lousy control of thoughts and emotions, and what they need is compassion and mercy, not a lecture about how they should quit choosing their stories. They can't even sort out stories from reality half the time.

Even if you have fairly ordered thinking, everyone has some kind of line in the sand that, if your experience takes you beyond it, you can easily spend years coming to terms with it, and to suggest that you should just flip a switch and "decide" to accept it can be very premature and counterproductive. You can only process so much change, loss, or whatever at once. Short circuiting that process can actually deny you growth opportunities. You don't want to take half-baked bread out of the oven.

Every once in awhile someone like Ekhart Tolle or Byron Katie makes a quantum leap because they come to the end of themselves. But, for every Ekhart or Byron I suspect there are at least a score of nameless people who simply passed into madness. They don't survive to write books and develop a following. And there are others who resolved their suffering only with much time and discipline.

Your understanding moves me to tears.

In the messy world of actual people and real world circumstances, you can't always tie everything up in a bow and sprinkle happy dust on it and make it go away. And you can't explain difficulties entirely in terms of resistance or laziness or a fondness for self limiting thoughts.

Would that life were that simple ...

--Bob

My sentiments exactly.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

This thread is like a ring-side seat to an ontological sparring match....

Jab/duck, swing/sidestep....dance...dance...roll...

I love it.

Please Maguru... don't stop now, you're just getting started!

I've only just seen this. I hope I'm doing you proud?

[Angela]

I get it now.... Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection... I am your reflection.... Oh, Maguru! How sweet!

I'm all talked out on the subject you asked me about (if it's so easy to choose peace or let go of suffering, why haven't we?), and you seem to be nearing a melt-down, so I'll sign off this conversation with you.

And as I mentioned, there is no requirement as far as I'm concerned that you let go of your suffering, or that you choose peace. I'm sorry it drives you batsh*t that I insist you can. I would have thought it would be far more rankling to be told you are powerless and limited, but go figure. If you believe this:

You cannot choose to be happy. You either are or are not. You cannot choose to be encouraging. You either are or not. You cannot choose peace. You either are peace or you are not. Being is not choice.

...then it certainly is true for you. In that case, you have answered your own question, and asking me was extraneous. Why don't we choose peace? Because we cannot choose peace. You are either at peace or you are not.

Of course, it's not true for me, but then I've got that Dopamine Superpower.

See ya!

[Maguru]

I get it now.... Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection... I am your reflection.... Oh, Maguru! How sweet!

Oh PLEASE!! I would hate to be like you, Angela. Honestly.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Oh PLEASE!! I would hate to be like you, Angela. Honestly.

Well, that's a shame for you, because:

The only difference between you and I is that I am aware that I am.

And of course, you can't choose your way of being, so you're stuck being like me! Twins forever! {double heart smilie}

D'oh!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, that's a shame for you, because:



And of course, you can't choose your way of being, so you're stuck being like me! Twins forever! {double heart smilie}

D'oh!

Knowing self changes everything. I don't choose who to be. I just am.

My point being that I have no need to sprout how wonderful I think I am.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Angela, referencing Maguru's statements

Why don't we choose peace? Because we cannot choose peace. You are either at peace or you are not.

We have both more and less choice than we think we do.

The world is your playground now because your limiting belief apparently used to be that you had little or no choice in how to be. One day you realized that you had quite a bit more choice than you thought you did and you are now in the process of exploring this life you are creating for yourself.

On the other hand, I was raised from the cradle to think that I had unlimited choice. My life lesson, then, has been to learn that I cannot choose all things all the time. I can't choose to set myself up in opposition to reality. I can't choose beliefs that limit me, without enduring the consequences. I can't indiscriminately take on other people's drama without enduring the consequences. I can't cancel other people's Cloud of Doom with a wish. I can't expect the universe to value my comfort and "happiness" above the growth of my soul, nor can I expect it to guarantee that even my growth will be successful. And so on.

For me, life has been mostly about stripping away illusions and therefore it has been mostly about loss. For you it appears to be more about expansion and therefore mostly about acquisition and discovery.

These are, I suspect, just different sides of the same cycle of expansion and contraction that seems to exist everywhere. Ironically, I may be poised now to enter into an expansive phase in that sense. At the same time, other rhythms are asserting themselves, heading the other direction: I've passed beyond anything that can be remotely rationalized as youth, and rapidly running out of middle age.

So it goes. We have to recognize where each person is. It's not all about tra-la-la, and it's not all about existential pain, but for particular individuals at particular times, it may be mostly about one or the other.

--Bob

[Angela]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

We have both more and less choice than we think we do.

Bob, although I suspect we're mostly saying the same things in different ways, I'd just like to point out that we have exactly as much choice as we think we do.

What I mean is: as you've noticed, I know that I can deliberately choose my thoughts and guide my emotions; I can deliberately choose my way of being. I do it every day, and it's fun! Now, as wonderful and delightful as I am there's nothing special about me; I also recognize that it's not a unique superpower I have -- it's just part of being human, and it is as much fun for me to watch others deliberately choosing ways of being for themselves as it is for me to do it. That's probably why I'm always going on about it -- because every time I do, someone pm's me to say something like, "hey, yeah, I can CHOOSE to feel good on purpose! THANK you!!"

And if you think (or know) that you have no choice in the matter of your way of being -- that our ways of being live entirely at the effect of external circumstance -- then you're right: you have no choice. (You still have the capacity for choice, of course, but choice doesn't feel available to you.) And all the shades of knowing in between -- as much as you believe you have choice in the matter of your way of being, that's how much choice you have in the matter of your way of being.

I'm interested in hearing about your new expansive phase -- what's going on?

(p.s... I edited your quote of me, because out of context it looks like I believe that phrase, and in fact I was referencing Maguru's statements.)

[Angela]

By the way, Bob and Maguru, I'm not interested in changing, saving, or fixing anyone; there's no one out there who is wrong, floundering, or broken. I'm interested in being what's possible for the world, not just for myself.

In case you were wondering.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Angela

And if you think (or know) that you have no choice in the matter of your way of being -- that our ways of being live entirely at the effect of external circumstance -- then you're right: you have no choice. (You still have the capacity for choice, of course, but choice doesn't feel available to you.) And all the shades of knowing in between -- as much as you believe you have choice in the matter of your way of being, that's how much choice you have in the matter of your way of being.

It is the "shades of knowing" that I am talking about, but I don't think knowing and believing are the same thing or have much to do with each other.

Some people in my experience have very little knowing, and limited or no capacity for choice about certain things (and sometimes, about most things). Others choose freely without giving it a second thought. Some people are so addled that it boggles the mind to imagine what it's like to be them. The image that comes to mind is those little clear plastic domes on wheels with a handle that they give to toddlers. They push them along the floor and little balls pop around inside the dome. The insides of some people's heads must be like that. God help them. Is that their fault? Sometimes, to an extent, but often, they seem to be born that way.

Either we are not all created equal, or as the old joke goes, some of us are created more equal than others.

I don't know why this is but I won't disrespect the journey or the pain of others by assuming that it is nothing more than a wrong choice on their part.

I can see how people developed the concept of karma. It's a story that would explain a lot, although in a way that only accentuates the dispassionate, indifferent, impersonal nature of existence in ways that I can't easily accept.

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm interested in hearing about your new expansive phase -- what's going on?

Nothing that others would find earth shattering. I am just finding some interesting ways to assemble what is left of me into a new configuration that may work well going forward. Maybe in ways that will more than compensate for the sucky aspects, and at the least, will give me a sense of being useful and helpful to myself and others, and things to look forward to.

I believe it's called "picking up the pieces".

As I've said elsewhere, my biggest problem in the past has been caring too much and trying too hard. It has come to me that the things in my life that have always "just worked" (tm) are the things I haven't cared that much one way or the other about. The stuff that has tried its darndest to become an automatic disaster is the stuff that, while I wasn't exactly anxious about it, I did consider fundamentally, non-negotiably crucial to my happiness, the stuff that absolutely had to be a certain way. It turns out that it's amazing what you can live without and what you can do with what is left. It makes me feel like I'm acting out a script written by someone else, which annoys the hell out of me. And yet at the same time, if my script hasn't worked and this one does ... WTF. Might as well go with it. What have I got to lose?

--Bob

[Angela]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

The image that comes to mind is those little clear plastic domes on wheels with a handle that they give to toddlers. They push them along the floor and little balls pop around inside the dome. The insides of some people's heads must be like that.

That is a very colorful image! I love it.

I don't know why this is but I won't disrespect the journey or the pain of others by assuming that it is nothing more than a wrong choice on their part.

Me, neither. There are no wrong choices, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't mind disrespecting inauthentic pain, though, in the sense that I don't buy into it. For example, the "pain" recently expressed by people who declared that the "lipstick on a pig" remark was sexist. I don't respect or feel compassion for that "pain." Or the emotional pain that is kept alive solely by the story that is incessantly repeated about something that happened in the past. I respect the person, popping-ball-head or not, and I'm sorry for their pain, but I don't respect the habitual negative thought pattern or the pain that comes with it. Including my own!

Which is not to say that there's not loads of value in "talking it out" and that that sometimes takes a good chunk of time for the unpracticed. I'm in favor of therapy, talking with friends, spewing and wallowing -- I'm in favor of all that because talking it out is one (but not the only) great way to let it go. I don't advocate sweeping it under the rug or denying it's there, because as has been mentioned, it tends to come out inappropriately and bite you in the butt.

Many people have no intention of letting it go, though, and that's fine with me. They are attached to the story of their pain, they're married to it -- and again, there's nothing wrong with that. Suffering is pain with a pay-off, though, and when you get a pay-off, you don't need my respect or compassion. I respect folks' right to think whatever they want to (or are "forced to" because they have no choice in the matter ), but that doesn't mean I have to respect the thoughts.

I can see how people developed the concept of karma. It's a story that would explain a lot, although in a way that only accentuates the dispassionate, indifferent, impersonal nature of existence in ways that I can't easily accept.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. How does the concept of karma explain a lot that accentuates the dispassionate, indifferent, impersonal nature of existence? Why are those ways not easy to accept for you?

Nothing that others would find earth shattering. I am just finding some interesting ways to assemble what is left of me into a new configuration that may work well going forward. ... I did consider fundamentally, non-negotiably crucial to my happiness, the stuff that absolutely had to be a certain way. It turns out that it's amazing what you can live without and what you can do with what is left. It makes me feel like I'm acting out a script written by someone else, which annoys the hell out of me. And yet at the same time, if my script hasn't worked and this one does ... WTF. Might as well go with it. What have I got to lose?

Thanks for that answer, and I wish you well with your new approach. What is it exactly that has you feeling like you're acting out a script written by someone else and being annoyed by that? Do you mean that you feel like your choices are being made for you? Or is it something else?

I think that one of the most profound aspects of my Dopamine Superpower is that the more I let go of having fundamental, non-negotiable, absolutely-has-to-be-this-way conditions before I'm willing to be happy (peaceful, joyful, free), the more easily and quickly those qualities bubble up and flow into my life. I would say my feeling good has a lot more to do with letting go of stuff I don't need than trying to be something I'm not. The more I let go, the more room for feeling good. Once again, simple, but not necessarily easy!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

By the way, Bob and Maguru, I'm not interested in changing, saving, or fixing anyone; there's no one out there who is wrong, floundering, or broken. I'm interested in being what's possible for the world, not just for myself.

In case you were wondering.

I was wondering how much authenticity there is in taking possibility as reality?