The Warrior's Predicament

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Surely god could create a better way to entertain himself?

I'm going with apparently not. Come on! Everyone likes a good drama, especially God!

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

C'mon... you can NEVER have enough glitter disco shoes.

And this is my predicament as a warrior: people who prefer glitter disco shoes!!! My god, why am I surrounded by such small minded people? All true warriors understand the truth: glitter disco PLATFORM shoes are obviously the only way to go!

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

I'm going with apparently not. Come on! Everyone likes a good drama, especially God!



And this is my predicament as a warrior: people who prefer glitter disco shoes!!! My god, why am I surrounded by such small minded people? All true warriors understand the truth: glitter disco PLATFORM shoes are obviously the only way to go!

Of course! That's a given. That's why I didn't feel it necessary to specify platforms vs. pumps.... DUH!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by fellowtraveler

Heh...I see your humor, but if you (and you might not) accept that you'll have many lifetimes to do otherwise, a lifetime of pain is but a pinprick.

Nah, don't believe in many life times and if I have a choice, once is enough.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

To me, that is a hilarious question. It's like asking, "Haven't we enough silver glitter disco shoes to now choose to be happy?"

Choosing to be peace (or love, or bold inspiration, or joy, or freedom) has no prerequisites! You don't have to have any conditions satisfied before you choose peace.

And one thing I'm quite sure of: you certainly don't need to suffer first! That is a very funny concept!

Well Angela, I'm not so sure. If it is so easy why haven't we?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Well Angela, I'm not so sure. If it is so easy why haven't we?

Why haven't we what? Chosen peace, or given up suffering? Or both? I didn't say it's easy, but it is simple. Just choose it, or just let it go. That's the whole recipe; that's all you gotta do.

It seems really hard because we are so in the habit of believing that peace is just beyond our reach, or that suffering is required before you can grow or feel compassion.

But the truth is, we can simply choose to Be Peace -- right now, right here. And we can choose to let go of suffering right here, right now, too. Anytime, anyplace. Even in the midst of a war, even while in pain.

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Nah, don't believe in many life times and if I have a choice, once is enough.

You probably have a choice. Me, there's no way one lifetime is enough to do eveything I want to do.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Why haven't we what? Chosen peace, or given up suffering? Or both? I didn't say it's easy, but it is simple. Just choose it, or just let it go. That's the whole recipe; that's all you gotta do.

It seems really hard because we are so in the habit of believing that peace is just beyond our reach, or that suffering is required before you can grow or feel compassion.

But the truth is, we can simply choose to Be Peace -- right now, right here. And we can choose to let go of suffering right here, right now, too. Anytime, anyplace. Even in the midst of a war, even while in pain.

Angela, I think it's idealistic and not realistic to choose peace when in the midst of war. We are human beings and we hurt but suffering is not the cause of there being no peace. It is the other way around. No peace creates suffering. War creates suffering. What creates war?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by fellowtraveler

You probably have a choice. Me, there's no way one lifetime is enough to do eveything I want to do.

Life isn't about doing everything for me. It's about being everything.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Angela, I think it's idealistic and not realistic to choose peace when in the midst of war. We are human beings and we hurt but suffering is not the cause of there being no peace. It is the other way around. No peace creates suffering. War creates suffering. What creates war?

Well, you and I see things very differently. That is fine. I can only choose for myself, and possibly inspire others to make that choice, too; but each person gets to choose for herself, of course.

I think choosing peace is my very best choice when there is war going on around me -- or inside me! There is nothing more real, or more practical, then choosing a way of being that works well in living a life I love.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, you and I see things very differently. That is fine. I can only choose for myself, and possibly inspire others to make that choice, too; but each person gets to choose for herself, of course.

I think choosing peace is my very best choice when there is war going on around me -- or inside me! There is nothing more real, or more practical, then choosing a way of being that works well in living a life I love.

There you go being positive again

I am speaking on behalf of those experiencing war or disaster. Either as heroes or victims. The wounds last for generations. The experiences are absorbed into the psyche and cannot be removed just by a change of mind.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I am speaking on behalf of those experiencing war or disaster. Either as heroes or victims. The wounds last for generations. The experiences are absorbed into the psyche and cannot be removed just by a change of mind.

Me, too! The people who are most effective in time of conflict, from what I've seen, are the ones who generate peace -- even if it's *only* inner peace. (that was kind of a joke. Get it? *ONLY* inner peace? )

And I agree with you that wounds can (not must) last awhile, and that the experience is not removed by change of mind, or even by time. Pain might linger, and memory is a very handy tool. It's the suffering that's extraneous; the suffering can be transcended in the blink of an eye.

Do you understand the difference I'm talking about when I say that you can feel pain and choose not to suffer? I've talked about it before, but it seems like you might think when I say "suffering" that I'm using it interchangeably with "pain."

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Life isn't about doing everything for me. It's about being everything.

Cool. Same difference, for me. I like it here, and I think I'll like it wherever "there" is. Now that I can easily see my navel , I don't really stare at it a lot.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Maguru

There you go being positive again

I am speaking on behalf of those experiencing war or disaster. Either as heroes or victims. The wounds last for generations. The experiences are absorbed into the psyche and cannot be removed just by a change of mind.

As someone who has experienced horrendous things in war and peace I say that the wounds can be healed without waiting for generations to pass.

I do see people who never recover from the traumatic events. I also see many people who are able to incorporate the traumatic experiences into a life experience which is positive.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Me, too! The people who are most effective in time of conflict, from what I've seen, are the ones who generate peace -- even if it's *only* inner peace. (that was kind of a joke. Get it? *ONLY* inner peace? )

And I agree with you that wounds can (not must) last awhile, and that the experience is not removed by change of mind, or even by time. Pain might linger, and memory is a very handy tool. It's the suffering that's extraneous; the suffering can be transcended in the blink of an eye.

Do you understand the difference I'm talking about when I say that you can feel pain and choose not to suffer? I've talked about it before, but it seems like you might think when I say "suffering" that I'm using it interchangeably with "pain."

I do understand what you mean by feeling pain and choosing not to suffer e.g. giving birth. The pain is intense () but not lingering and no suffering, although that is debateable ha ha.

However, the suffering from e.g. 9/11 is on a much deeper and wider level. The survivors and families are changed forever. It becomes ingrained. There are children without parents. Parents without children. This is permanent. It may not look so obvious as time goes by because it becomes a way of life.

I don't know if you would have heard of 'Woomara detention centre' over here in Australia, where asylum seekers were kept for several years. A government decision. There were suicides and hunger strikes.

A documentary on the guards at Woomara revealed how the experience had affected each of them. Some had broken marriages. Some had PTSD. Some became racist. Families were torn apart. Most could no longer work. Believe me, they are suffering and god knows how much suffering was inflicted on the 'prisoners'. This whole situation was a spin off from 9/11. FEAR of terrorism. And it goes on........................

Angela, no-one suggests you should not feel positive. Your life experiences have brought you to where you are. It works exactly the same with negative. Life experiences dictate and create suffering. It is real. It is valid. Your attitude, as strong and as positive as it is, comes across as dismissive of others' suffering.

Personally, I find acknowledgemnet of someone's suffering releases the negative. It has to surface. If it is suppressed by trying to be positive, it festers and expands. When this occurs the negative energy becomes much stronger than the positive, even yours. It happened to me. I went down for 10yrs.

Angela, your posts have pushed my button since I joined this forum and now I know why. I can remove it now. You are a gift to me, Angela. Thankyou.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Angela, no-one suggests you should not feel positive. Your life experiences have brought you to where you are. It works exactly the same with negative. Life experiences dictate and create suffering. It is real. It is valid.

While I agree with you that suffering is "real" (well, as real as any other problems ), I completely disagree with you that my life experiences have brought me to where I am, in regards to a positive attitude. It's not my experiences, that have me feeling the way I do, Maguru; it's my thoughts about my experiences, and it's my choices. Same thing with people who suffer. It's not their experiences -- nope! not even the 9/11 victims -- it's their thoughts about what happened that day, and what they choose going forward.

Your attitude, as strong and as positive as it is, comes across as dismissive of others' suffering.

Well, I think of pain and suffering the way I think of a little child who comes to me crying. If she just fell down and skinned her knee, and she comes to me crying, then I will comfort her and treat her wounds and do whatever I can to ease her pain. But if she fell down last month and skinned her knee, and she comes to me crying about the tragedy of how she skinned her knee, then I'm not doing her any favors by agreeing that her skinned knee is a tragedy.

Pain hurts, that's for sure! And suffering does, too; but pain'll feel better when it quits hurtin', while suffering is the gift you keep on giving to yourself. I absolutely acknowledge one's right to do that, if that's what they choose! I do not begrudge anyone their suffering. And if by "dismissive" you mean: "encouraging others to see that it's unnecessary, and to see how it gets in the way of living a life you love," then okay, I will accept being dismissive.

If it is suppressed by trying to be positive, it festers and expands.

I'm not advocating the suppression of suffering; I'm an advocate of letting it go entirely.

Angela, your posts have pushed my button since I joined this forum and now I know why. I can remove it now. You are a gift to me, Angela. Thankyou.

You're welcome! Being free feels good, doesn't it?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

While I agree with you that suffering is "real" (well, as real as any other problems ), I completely disagree with you that my life experiences have brought me to where I am, in regards to a positive attitude. It's not my experiences, that have me feeling the way I do, Maguru; it's my thoughts about my experiences, and it's my choices. Same thing with people who suffer. It's not their experiences -- nope! not even the 9/11 victims -- it's their thoughts about what happened that day, and what they choose going forward.



Well, I think of pain and suffering the way I think of a little child who comes to me crying. If she just fell down and skinned her knee, and she comes to me crying, then I will comfort her and treat her wounds and do whatever I can to ease her pain. But if she fell down last month and skinned her knee, and she comes to me crying about the tragedy of how she skinned her knee, then I'm not doing her any favors by agreeing with her skinned knee is a tragedy.

Pain hurts, that's for sure! And suffering does, too; but pain'll feel better when it quits hurtin', while suffering is the gift you keep on giving to yourself. I absolutely acknowledge one's right to do that, if that's what they choose! I do not begrudge anyone their suffering. And if by "dismissive" you mean: "encouraging others to see that it's unnecessary, and to see how it gets in the way of living a life you love," then okay, I will accept being dismissive.



I'm not advocating the suppression of suffering; I'm an advocate of letting it go entirely.

Thanks again Angela, I have a frustration button that you have now pushed. No problem. I shall not vent it.

I do not dispute anything you say about yourself being positive. I can take a walk in your shoes and understand that it is true. However, it is only part of the whole picture. Can you take a walk in mine and see a bigger picture? You have dismissed my suggestion that your attitude is dismissive. You dismissed it with an analogy of a grazed knee?

What do you think of the Woomara detention centre?

How can you possibly see suffering as a gift you give yourself? Tell that to the guards and survivors of Woomara and this example is only a small incident compared to the whole picture. It is devastating and you indicate insignificance.

The suffering will not cease until the causes of the suffering are rectified. The causes can be found in the suffering if only some could hear. The solutions are in taking responsibility for the cause and not by laying the blame on everything and everyone else or by burying one's head in the sand, having it up in the clouds or sweeping it under the carpet.

You recently said we were at opposite ends of the spectrum and I would certainly agree with that. You show me my opposite. The gift you give me is not in your words or in your opinions, but in your being. You teach me to understand those who push my buttons.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Gene

As someone who has experienced horrendous things in war and peace I say that the wounds can be healed without waiting for generations to pass.

I do see people who never recover from the traumatic events. I also see many people who are able to incorporate the traumatic experiences into a life experience which is positive.

Yes, the effects will be different in all cases as I described in the case of the guards at Woomara. My father and my father-in-law had two completely different reactions to World War 11 in which they both served abroad. In each case the effects were passed down through the family, in different ways of course.

May I ask of your experiences?

[Liara Covert]

I believe a sense of suffering changes based on evolving levels of self-awareness. People experience different intensities of suffering. As a person evolves to understand the reson behind each perception, this becomes a means to move beyond or transcend different kinds of suffering that no longer bother you to the same degree. You can grow to believe certain experiences are good for your growth because they prompt you to stretch your mind and deepen your self-understanding. Some people also evolve to believe suffering is an illusion. You may decide this if you are on that energy frequency.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, the effects will be different in all cases as I described in the case of the guards at Woomara. My father and my father-in-law had two completely different reactions to World War 11 in which they both served abroad. In each case the effects were passed down through the family, in different ways of course.

May I ask of your experiences?

I usually avoid a laundry list of traumatic life experiences since it is no longer my habit to think of and focus on these events as tragedies in my life. In the context of this discussion it is useful and adaptive to speak of my history.

When I was five months old my mother died and her body was found in the charred remains of the barn on our family farm. The local authorities ruled the death a homicide and charged my father with her murder. My father was found guilty at trial and sentenced to die in the electric chair at Menard Correctional Facility in Illinois.

Less than twenty four hours before his execution the Illinois Supreme Court overturned his conviction and sent the case back to the lower court with the instructions that he could not be retried without new and substantial evidence. My father returned home when I was three years old. He was never retried. He did however remain under indictment for more than twenty years.

The polarity in my small farm community was intense. I remember people crossing the street in our small town when we were shopping so they would not be in our immediate proximity. I remember the fist fights and the tears in grade school when the taunts of, “Your father Killed your mother! Murderer!” flew in the playground.

I remember being promoted from second grate to fourth grade in the same school because the staff thought I was a bright boy and being shunned by all the students in my school of one hundred children save one friend. I remember being alone because I was intelligent and totally clueless about social interaction with people my own age.

I remember my grandmother being attacked by the County sheriff’s deputy who came to our farm to serve yet another series of papers on my father when I was ten. He told her she deserved it because her son was a murderer who managed to escape justice.

I remember a man verbally and physically attacking my grandmother at the local feed mill where we purchased feed for our animals. The man aggressively stated my father was a murder and that all Wilson’s were a pack of murdering illegitimate offspring of dogs, then tried to beat my grandmother and myself.

I remember the fights in high school including the time I literally had my clothes ripped from my body except for my pants and reporting to class.

I remember believing the world was a hostile, unfriendly, deadly, violent place without many redeeming qualities.

I remember retreating into myself and a world of books and fantasy. Life became less and less of what I would hope for myself or anyone else and the most horrendous part of all was that I did not know there was an alternative.

I remember driving tractors in the field when I was fourteen and stopping half way across the field to sob and cry uncontrollably. The pain I felt was so strong that I could not complete a task without breaking down. Time after time I would start across that field and stop the tractor to cry.

I remember the intense loneliness and aloneness of my life. I remember the focus on work for survival and the focus on work as a means of showing “them” that they could not destroy “us.” Inside I felt destroyed.

I remember Vietnam. I once tried to count the number of my comrades who were are on the memorial in Washington. I still do not know the number because I stopped counting at thirty three.

I remember coming home from my time in the Army wearing my uniform, decorations and my wings and being spit on in Chicago during the demonstrations in 1969 and attacked while the crowd screamed “baby killer.”

I remember my anger which was beyond description.

I remember becoming part of a criminal enterprise(s). I remember carrying weapons and spending inordinate amounts of time and energy thinking and practicing the most efficient ways of applying deadly force.

I remember these and so many more similar events, too many to list. I do not desire to compile a complete list as I believe this is sufficient to give you an idea of the path I have walked in the days of turmoil and pain.

I am grateful to have survived these times and I am grateful for the person I am today. These events and how I understood them shaped me then and the way I understand life today including my history contribute to the person I am today.

I think about people, places and things differently now than I did during the years of pain. The above is the prologue to my life story. It is not who I am today. Through a serendipitous series of events, people and work I became willing and eventually embraced a different way of thinking, feeling and living.

I know people who never transcend the pain, trauma and victimization. I am more grateful than words can express to have those be history and not my life today. I have thought about why some people move through the trauma to the other side. I conclude I was addicted to thinking about the traumatic events and while doing so I was stuck in time. When the traumatic events became the past and my thoughts were on “now” my life became better than the fourteen year old boy who stopped the tractor to cry each time across the field could ever dream it could be.

Since I have written about the before of my life, I will write about the now of my life at some future date.

I must go now to take my almost four year old son to preschool so I will post this message without editing.

Life is good!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Gene

I usually avoid a laundry list of traumatic life experiences since it is no longer my habit to think of and focus on these events as tragedies in my life. In the context of this discussion it is useful and adaptive to speak of my history.

When I was five months old my mother died and her body was found in the charred remains of the barn on our family farm. The local authorities ruled the death a homicide and charged my father with her murder. My father was found guilty at trial and sentenced to die in the electric chair at Menard Correctional Facility in Illinois.

Less than twenty four hours before his execution the Illinois Supreme Court overturned his conviction and sent the case back to the lower court with the instructions that he could not be retried without new and substantial evidence. My father returned home when I was three years old. He was never retried. He did however remain under indictment for more than twenty years.

The polarity in my small farm community was intense. I remember people crossing the street in our small town when we were shopping so they would not be in our immediate proximity. I remember the fist fights and the tears in grade school when the taunts of, “Your father Killed your mother! Murderer!” flew in the playground.

I remember being promoted from second grate to fourth grade in the same school because the staff thought I was a bright boy and being shunned by all the students in my school of one hundred children save one friend. I remember being alone because I was intelligent and totally clueless about social interaction with people my own age.

I remember my grandmother being attacked by the County sheriff’s deputy who came to our farm to serve yet another series of papers on my father when I was ten. He told her she deserved it because her son was a murderer who managed to escape justice.

I remember a man verbally and physically attacking my grandmother at the local feed mill where we purchased feed for our animals. The man aggressively stated my father was a murder and that all Wilson’s were a pack of murdering illegitimate offspring of dogs, then tried to beat my grandmother and myself.

I remember the fights in high school including the time I literally had my clothes ripped from my body except for my pants and reporting to class.

I remember believing the world was a hostile, unfriendly, deadly, violent place without many redeeming qualities.

I remember retreating into myself and a world of books and fantasy. Life became less and less of what I would hope for myself or anyone else and the most horrendous part of all was that I did not know there was an alternative.

I remember driving tractors in the field when I was fourteen and stopping half way across the field to sob and cry uncontrollably. The pain I felt was so strong that I could not complete a task without breaking down. Time after time I would start across that field and stop the tractor to cry.

I remember the intense loneliness and aloneness of my life. I remember the focus on work for survival and the focus on work as a means of showing “them” that they could not destroy “us.” Inside I felt destroyed.

I remember Vietnam. I once tried to count the number of my comrades who were are on the memorial in Washington. I still do not know the number because I stopped counting at thirty three.

I remember coming home from my time in the Army wearing my uniform, decorations and my wings and being spit on in Chicago during the demonstrations in 1969 and attacked while the crowd screamed “baby killer.”

I remember my anger which was beyond description.

I remember becoming part of a criminal enterprise(s). I remember carrying weapons and spending inordinate amounts of time and energy thinking and practicing the most efficient ways of applying deadly force.

I remember these and so many more similar events, too many to list. I do not desire to compile a complete list as I believe this is sufficient to give you an idea of the path I have walked in the days of turmoil and pain.

I am grateful to have survived these times and I am grateful for the person I am today. These events and how I understood them shaped me then and the way I understand life today including my history contribute to the person I am today.

I think about people, places and things differently now than I did during the years of pain. The above is the prologue to my life story. It is not who I am today. Through a serendipitous series of events, people and work I became willing and eventually embraced a different way of thinking, feeling and living.

I know people who never transcend the pain, trauma and victimization. I am more grateful than words can express to have those be history and not my life today. I have thought about why some people move through the trauma to the other side. I conclude I was addicted to thinking about the traumatic events and while doing so I was stuck in time. When the traumatic events became the past and my thoughts were on “now” my life became better than the fourteen year old boy who stopped the tractor to cry each time across the field could ever dream it could be.

Since I have written about the before of my life, I will write about the now of my life at some future date.

I must go now to take my almost four year old son to preschool so I will post this message without editing.

Life is good!

Gene, thankyou so much. I take my hat off to you, sir. Your story needs to be told and I feel priviledged to hear it.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Gene

Life is good!

Thank you so much for sharing that Gene! I love stories like this! They are so powerful and so inspiring! People like you are like beacons of light! Talk about a warrior...

And life is most definitely good!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Thanks again Angela, I have a frustration button that you have now pushed.

You are welcome!

I think you consider pain and suffering to be two shades of the same thing: there's pain, and then there's really seriously awful painful painy pain called suffering. That's the dictionary definition ( my cartoony version ); thats' the way many people think they're using the word.

But that's not how we have been using the word here, and it's not how it's normally used in life: there's pain, and then there's the story we habitually and relentlessly tell ourselves to keep the pain alive called suffering. The suffering is a story. It feels real because it really is pain, and the source of the pain is the story.

For instance, I poke you in the eye, it gets infected and never heals right, you spend the rest of your life with eyeverticulosis that itches every night. That's dictionary suffering.

What we've been talking about, though, is emotional suffering: I poke you in the eye, it hurts for a minute or two, and you spend the rest of your life being hurt that I poked you in the eye. You join a poked-eye support group. Every year on September 19th, you hold a ceremony where you rant and cry about how much it hurt that time you got poked in the eye. You go to therapy every week to talk for an hour about how much it hurt. You begin a War On Poking and dedicate your life to raising awareness of the Problem of eye poking in our country. You campaign to get me put in jail or at least fired from my job -- you will not rest until Justice has been served!

There is real suffering in the world (well, as real as any other "problem" -- like people who are in the authentic pain of not having enough to eat or enduring disease or being mauled by a polar bear.

And there is the other kind: "Ten years ago I was starving. I have enough to eat now, but I am still suffering from the memory of starving! Every time I think about it, which is every day, I suffer because I didn't have enough to eat ten years ago."

I am not dismissing that kind of suffering. I know that the pain from it feels very real. I've certainly looked at the world from that perspective, and suffered as a result! Now that I've shifted, though, the perspective of believing that emotional suffering is necessary or unavoidable or desirable for personal growth doesn't look like a "bigger picture" to me -- it's just different. It's apparent to me that if a story is causing you pain, you can stop telling yourself that story and *Poof* the pain disappears. You don't have to, of course, and I'm not telling you you *should.* I am sorry if you feel unnecessary pain, but I certainly don't begrudge you your right to feel it.

You say:

The suffering will not cease until the causes of the suffering are rectified.

...and I agree with you! The cause of the suffering, though, is not the cause of the pain. The cause of the suffering is the habitual incessant story we tell ourselves about our pain, and if we want to, we can just let that story go and end suffering in an instant.

Of course people will probably still get mauled by polar bears, but when we've let go of our unnecessary emotional suffering, we'll have more time to tend to their authentic pain.

Like Gene, you can have your history without making it your habitual incessant story -- like Gene, you can have your past and be free of suffering. Gene is a master generator of feeling good on purpose.

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Gene

I usually avoid a laundry list of traumatic life experiences since it is no longer my habit to think of and focus on these events as tragedies in my life. In the context of this discussion it is useful and adaptive to speak of my history...
Life is good!

Excellent. If nothing else, you sir have lived a life. I have an inkling what your next post will reveal, and I am anxious to read it.

[JMan]

Originally Posted by Gene

I must go now to take my almost four year old son to preschool so I will post this message without editing.

Life is good!

Touching and inspiring story Gene - thank you for sharing.

[Angela]

Maguru, why do you think all this pushes your buttons so much? Why do you think I push your buttons so much? If you simply disagree with me, you'd probably just pass over it without thinking about it too much, or maybe saying, "feh, she's wrong." But since you get an emotional charge out of what I say, what's there and available for you out of that? You have seemed lately to be pretty calm and sure-footed in what you've shared; what is the treasure for you inside this issue of suffering? Do you think it may be something around this "feeling dismissed" concern?

It is a warrior's predicament!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

You are welcome!

I think you consider pain and suffering to be two shades of the same thing: there's pain, and then there's really seriously awful painful painy pain called suffering. That's the dictionary definition ( my cartoony version ); thats' the way many people think they're using the word.

But that's not how we have been using the word here, and it's not how it's normally used in life: there's pain, and then there's the story we habitually and relentlessly tell ourselves to keep the pain alive called suffering. The suffering is a story. It feels real because it really is pain, and the source of the pain is the story.

For instance, I poke you in the eye, it gets infected and never heals right, you spend the rest of your life with eyeverticulosis that itches every night. That's dictionary suffering.

What we've been talking about, though, is emotional suffering: I poke you in the eye, it hurts for a minute or two, and you spend the rest of your life being hurt that I poked you in the eye. You join a poked-eye support group. Every year on September 19th, you hold a ceremony where you rant and cry about how much it hurt that time you got poked in the eye. You go to therapy every week to talk for an hour about how much it hurt. You begin a War On Poking and dedicate your life to raising awareness of the Problem of eye poking in our country. You campaign to get me put in jail or at least fired from my job -- you will not rest until Justice has been served!

BULL! Use real examples.

There is real suffering in the world (well, as real as any other "problem" -- like people who are in the authentic pain of not having enough to eat or enduring disease or being mauled by a polar bear.

And there is the other kind: "Ten years ago I was starving. I have enough to eat now, but I am still suffering from the memory of starving! Every time I think about it, which is every day, I suffer because I didn't have enough to eat ten years ago."

I am not dismissing that kind of suffering. I know that the pain from it feels very real.

I beg to differ. You certainly are dismissing suffering.

the perspective of believing that emotional suffering is necessary or unavoidable or desirable for personal growth

Who believes that?

The cause of the suffering, though, is not the cause of the pain. The cause of the suffering is the habitual incessant story we tell ourselves about our pain, and if we want to, we can just let that story go and end suffering in an instant.

Of course people will probably still get mauled by polar bears, but when we've let go of our unnecessary emotional suffering, we'll have more time to tend to their authentic pain.

Like Gene, you can have your history without making it your habitual incessant story -- like Gene, you can have your past and be free of suffering. Gene is a master generator of feeling good on purpose.

No, no-one can be like Gene. His experiences are unique to him. Many, if not most, do not make it. 33 comrades did not. Do you believe their families can ajust their suffering by not thinking about the loss. Has anyone close to you died in tragic circumstances?

SUFFERING : The condition of one who suffers; the bearing of pain or distress.
An instance of pain or distress.

I see suffering as the actual 'bearing' of pain whether physical, emotional or psychological.

Gene's story and the story of Woomera and 9/11 and world war 11 and many more reflect humanity as a whole. These aren't just STORIES. They are our legacy. They are our future. We have no need to look anywhere else but at ourselves. Life is a continous change and we can take responsibility and control of the changes or not.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Angela

Maguru, why do you think all this pushes your buttons so much? Why do you think I push your buttons so much? If you simply disagree with me, you'd probably just pass over it without thinking about it too much, or maybe saying, "feh, she's wrong." But since you get an emotional charge out of what I say, what's there and available for you out of that? You have seemed lately to be pretty calm and sure-footed in what you've shared; what is the treasure for you inside this issue of suffering? Do you think it may be something around this "feeling dismissed" concern?

It is a warrior's predicament!

I am a feeling, thinking human being. I would be more than happy to get an emotional response from you. How come you are emotionally disconnected?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Maguru

BULL! Use real examples.

Careful there, Maguru; rudeness is against the rules around here.

You want real examples of emotional suffering, as opposed to authentic pain? Let's see: one day I got mugged by some guys. It hurt! The next day, the authentic pain was gone, but my boyfriend suggested that it happened because of the way I was dressed, and the emotional suffering started to set in. I had all kinds of stories about how wrong he was for saying that, and how wrong men were for perpetrating violence against me, and how this and that .... but none of it was authentic pain. It was all pain that I was keeping alive by feeding myself stories. Talk about bull! And of course, when I stopped feeding myself the bull, the pain *poof!* disappeared.

I beg to differ. You certainly are dismissing suffering.

You don't have to beg. We disagree, that's all.

Who believes that? {that suffering is necessary and unavoidable, and maybe even desirable.}

I'm sorry, but I thought YOU believed that. You don't? I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Do you believe that suffering is NOT necessary, that it can be avoided, and that maybe it's undesirable?

No, no-one can be like Gene. His experiences are unique to him. Many, if not most, do not make it. 33 comrades did not. Do you believe their families can ajust their suffering by not thinking about the loss. Has anyone close to you died in tragic circumstances?

In the way I referred to, EVERYONE is like Gene: everyone has the power to have a past and still be free of suffering. In many ways he is one of a kind! I believe the families you ask about can be free of suffering, not by adjusting it or not thinking about it, but by surrendering -- by letting it go. Yes, people I love have died under tragic circumstances -- at least, it was a tragedy to me. But I'm not required to suffer because they died.

I see suffering as the actual 'bearing' of pain whether physical, emotional or psychological.

Right, I get that. EDIT: after thinking about this, I see that you are right: suffering is indeed "bearing pain." Bearing it, as in, lugging it around with you. What you bear, you can choose to put down.

Gene's story and the story of Woomera and 9/11 and world war 11 and many more reflect humanity as a whole. These aren't just STORIES. They are our legacy. They are our future.

They may not be JUST stories, but they are stories. Powerful ones, for some people. But stories. Yes, stories are our future, if we keep telling ourselves the same old stories. And yes, they are our legacy, if that's what we want to to leave for the next generation. There's a lot to learn from stories, but they don't determine how we feel -- WE do.

I am a feeling, thinking human being. I would be more than happy to get an emotional response from you. How come you are emotionally disconnected?

You delight me! Don't you know that? I will make it a point to say so more often. Delight is an emotion! One of my favorites, as a matter of fact. I don't feel emotionally disconnected, but I guess I am emotionally disconnected from what you say and think -- nothing you say or do upsets me, I mean. Would you prefer me to get upset?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Angela

Careful there, Maguru; rudeness is against the rules around here.

You want real examples of emotional suffering, as opposed to authentic pain? Let's see: one day I got mugged by some guys. It hurt! The next day, the authentic pain was gone, but my boyfriend suggested that it happened because of the way I was dressed, and the emotional suffering started to set in. I had all kinds of stories about how wrong he was for saying that, and how wrong men were for perpetrating violence against me, and how this and that .... but none of it was authentic pain. It was all pain that I was keeping alive by feeding myself stories. Talk about bull! And of course, when I stopped feeding myself the bull, the pain *poof!* disappeared.



You don't have to beg. We disagree, that's all.



I'm sorry, but I thought YOU believed that. You don't? I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Do you believe that suffering is NOT necessary, that it can be avoided, and that maybe it's undesirable?



In the way I referred to, EVERYONE is like Gene: everyone has the power to have a past and still be free of suffering. In many ways he is one of a kind! I believe the families you ask about can be free of suffering, not by adjusting it or not thinking about it, but by surrendering -- by letting it go. Yes, people I love have died under tragic circumstances -- at least, it was a tragedy to me. But I'm not required to suffer because they died.



Right, I get that. EDIT: after thinking about this, I see that you are right: suffering is indeed "bearing pain." Bearing it, as in, lugging it around with you. What you bear, you can choose to put down.



They may not be JUST stories, but they are stories. Powerful ones, for some people. But stories. Yes, stories are our future, if we keep telling ourselves the same old stories. And yes, they are our legacy, if that's what we want to to leave for the next generation. There's a lot to learn from stories, but they don't determine how we feel -- WE do.



You delight me! Don't you know that? I will make it a point to say so more often. Delight is an emotion! One of my favorites, as a matter of fact. I don't feel emotionally disconnected, but I guess I am emotionally disconnected from what you say and think -- nothing you say or do upsets me, I mean. Would you prefer me to get upset?

Hey Angela.... I had this really weird dream last night... Whattya think it meant??

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Hey Angela.... I had this really weird dream last night... Whattya think it meant??

It means YOU LIKE ME!!!!