If God is real ...

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I don't think this is accurate. In these sorts of matters, I don't start off with wanting to believe or disbelieve any particular thing.

You are right. I had second thoughts today about what I had said and didn't think it was fair. That is something we all do, weigh what we hear against what we know, and try to determine the truth as we see it. I do apologize for the statement.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

To me, this is very dangerous - to me, it's as dangerous as wanting to believe the Bible so much that everything else that seems contrary must be attributed to the Devil's mischief.

And I am not that shallow or superstitious either. I have had experiences with demons and was actually used by Jesus to cast one out of someone, so I am not basing what I am saying on a fear of the devil or of the truth.

Another dangerous thing to do would be to do that, dismiss the Bible as just something people want to believe, without taking into account that there indeed may be a real devil that works against the knowledge of God. But against a pure heart that seeks only the truth, he cannot win.

In my experiences, and as the Bible says, the devil almost never appears in his evil form because his intent is not to always to scare us because that may make us run to God. His aim is to deceive us. He can't do that unless he disguises himself because if we see who he is, hopefully, we wouldn't listen.

Jesus said the devil is the father of all lies and a murderer and he even entered into one of the Apostles. So it is not contrary to the Bible to know he can take the form of religious leaders also and murder saints just as he murdered Jesus.

But as in the pattern in the Bible and with the crucification of Jesus, God uses that evil the devil does for a greater victory. Many thousands have come to God or been strengthened in their faith because Joan of Arc was killed for her faith.

You can see her martyrdom as only a result of the failings of weak minded people seeing devils everywhere. But I would ask you to reconsider that event with the possibility in mind that an actual evil force exists that seeks to keep us from knowing the truth, that God cares and speaks, the truth that Joan wouldn't deny.

Consider what you see as people seeing devils everywhere as originating from the devil, because God does not give us a spirit of fear. The devil causes and then uses fear, even a fear of himself, against us within the church, especially in the church, and in other religions. We are not supposed to fear the devil but submit to God and give the devil no place.

The truth, a true religion or experience that is of God, will draw a person toward God and peace. That peace is what I have found with the God of the Bible. That you, or a million others, have found peace and power somewhere else doesn't cause me to want to leave or add to the perfect peace I have now.

I am not looking to find a relationship with God in other religions; I already have that. I am looking for truth and to be aware of the ways truth can be distorted or hidden beneath traditions. And yes, I agree, that can and does happen in the Christian church also, especially when it comes to hiding the true nature of God, which is love.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Why is it that we can ascribe innocence to little children who scream their demands, break things, hit each other, want all play and no work, and tell their parents how much they hate them? Maybe it's because we understand that the concept of guilt doesn't illuminate the situation. Our children aren't guilty of failing as adults. They simply aren't adults yet. Likewise, you and I aren't guilty of failing as gods (for what else would "falling short of the glory of god" be?). We are simply not gods yet.

What an excellent way of putting that!

[Acting Like Godot]

Really, bob? You don't see it? Chap dies. Chap comes back. The body talks, walks, moves its fingers. Would you call that resurrection or reincarnation. I think both labels work. guess the difference is how you see the body. Normally you would need a brand new one because most existing, workable ones are already occupied, and you want something more than temporary sharing eg via channelling or speaking in tongues. But your own recently dead body (not too badly decomposed yet) could do fine, especially if your consciousness is divine and knows how to fix your crucifixion wounds really fast. A lesser example of quick reincarnation / resurrection is found in chapter 1 of Sogyal Rinpoche's book the tibetan art of living and dying. Apart from that, many medically dead people do come back to inhabit their most recent bodies. These are called NDEs. Anyway, beyond the labels of the two R words, focus on the common idea that the same consciousness can inhabit a bodily mass, leave it, and then occupy a bodily mass again. And again.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

We discussed Eden in theology class the other day.

Whether the fruit was real or not, I think the basic point was that man was tempted by more knowledge. Not all knowledge is equal, and this particular knowledge was that of imperfection, pain, shame, and sin.

CS Lewis had an interesting take on this. If I understood him correctly, he basically said (in The Problem of Pain, if I'm not mistaken) that prior to the fall, Adam and Eve had no more moral awareness than any other animal. They were just very smart animals. The "knowledge of good and evil" was the burden of making moral / ethical choices. Once they had that burden, then they knew what suffering was.

Ignorance, in other words, was bliss.

The other way to look at it is that God knew all along what suffering was, and never wanted us to know it.

But then again, he did put that blasted tree there.

Oh well.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Really, bob? You don't see it? Chap dies. Chap comes back. The body talks, walks, moves its fingers. Would you call that resurrection or reincarnation. I think both labels work.

Well okay, I guess I'm like PP, always seeing the differences rather than the similarities. But isn't that a bit of a stretch? I mean, it's like saying that pedaling a bicycle and rowing in a slave galley are both forms of transportation. Yeah, but very different forms.

Personally, I really don't like the "again. and again" part. To me, that's its own built-in hell.

Retaining our identity and memories and always moving forward to a better reality is the only kind of afterlife that interests me. Otherwise if it's offered, I'll take what's behind door number three: oblivion.

I guess I'm just an old soul.

--Bob

[Rachelle]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Einstein, yes, but Sagan? That's news to me.

But regardless, you're right. Spirituality and science can coexist. Depending I suppose on your definitions for both words.

--Bob

Perhaps I'm mistaken. I was under the impression that he believed in God in the sense of all the forces that exist in the Universe. Not that he would 'pray' to such a 'God'... but rather seek to understand and comprehend it.

But now I'm not so sure. Here's one of Sagan's quotes:

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.

But now that I think of it Sagan was an agnostic. I deeply respect that man.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I'm saddened that you find the universe to be so impersonal. I know that you've gone through quite a bit in your life, and I won't try to lessen the impact of that. However, the experience of my life so far, since I was a child, is that I'm definitely not alone in this universe.

The fact that I consider life impersonal means that I simply don't take life personally. Life disappoints and annoys me, but I don't feel picked on. I can see that everyone else has pretty much the same existence, whether or not they want to look at it head on.

God has not abandoned me. He was never there in the first place. The only thing that has abandoned me is my illusions about god.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Perhaps some people are just tested more. The example of Job comes to mind. He never did anything wrong, but he was tested to the extreme.

It's true that some people have an easier time of it than others. It appears random to me, although there is a weak relationship between what the Buddhists call "right action" and good outcomes. What you might call a tendency. Again, impersonal.

The story of Job is an interesting one to consider. If god is god, no testing was necessary; god already knew all about Job. God was actually using Job as a demonstration to Satan that god's confidence in Job was not misplaced. Satan said, in effect in that story, "Tsk, tsk, Godly Job, big deal. All that a man has he will give for his life. But take his health and possessions away from him, and he will curse you to your face."

I'm not sure Job actually fared any better as a showcase than I have in that regard. He was pretty ticked off before it was all over, and he spent a great deal of time bemoaning The Unfairness of it All (tm). Apparently god had big shoulders though, because rather than smite him, god restored everything Job had lost many times over.

Or did he? If you consider people to be fungible commodities, perhaps. I don't recall that Job's children or servants who died in the collapse of the house were resurrected.

But therein lie the perils of drawing too much out of a parable.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I also respect your position, but just wanted to voice my opinion.

Likewise. I wish you well on your journey.

--Bob

[Dan.Linehan]

Bob, your viewpoint always reminds me of Ecclesiastes.

Which is basically atheistic.

-----

So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.

All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
As it is with the good man,
so with the sinner;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.

This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.

Anyone who is among the living has hope - even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun - all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

[NightSpirit]

Pianoperformer,

Sorry it is taking me so long to respond to some of your questions. You and my daughter are really making me study and search the Bible for references. I don't know if you read what I posted here a while back about what she has been through Does god exist? but if God never answers another prayer of mine, the answer to that one will keep me as long as I live. For her to go from the pit she was in to where she is now, from coming to my house at midnight all beaten up and bitten from being on the streets to calling me at midnight, like she did yesterday, while studying the Bible with her husband and asking me about something in there....that is more than I could have ever hoped would happen. She has been saved about 6 months now and she is trying to make up for lost time and wants to draw everything I know of God out of me as fast as possible.

What she called to ask about was the reference to what I told her about, the faith of the three Hebrews that were thrown in the furnace for not bowing to an idol. What they said, that "our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up" is similar to what Job said in "though he slay me, yet will I trust Him."

God did deliver Job and did walk with those men in the fire and delivered them but it was their faith that came out like gold, faith that God is good and will do what is right, even though we may not yet understand or must die rather than deny Him. The story is in Daniel 3 in case you haven't read it and that fourth man in the fire is Jesus. Most kids hear it in Sunday school but when my daughter was young, church was the furtherest thing from my mind, and that is one of my biggest regrets.

I thought these verses might also apply to you since you expressed some doubts about what the end of the world might mean to your plans. I understand the feeling and felt it too, the first time I tried to go to church at 18. The kind of faith we need to follow Jesus is the kind they had, where our trust in His goodness overrides our doubts about the future.

God loves us and is good. He said He will never leave us even until the ends of the earth and that He will deliver us. But if deliverance doesn't happen in the way we expect, He is still God and we know if we submit to Him, whatever happens will be right and He will reward our faith and restore our losses.

This verse is used a lot but tells us of the nature of God (Jeremiah 29:11) For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Other versions are translated as 'I know the plans I have for you....to give you a future and a hope.' God takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servants (Psalm 35:27) so we know God wants us to be happy and prosperous. That is His expected end for you and He always gets what He expects.

I know by outward appearances that it doesn't always seem that way and there are some, as the Bible says, that perversely only see 'gain as godliness'. But when a person can reach this state, as Paul said in Philippians 4:12-13, that whatever circumstances we find ourselves to be content then there is a peace in that.

I lost that feeling, that I might miss something or that God's will for me would be hard to accept when I came to God again at around 28. Once I got a vision of the kingdom of heaven and a knowledge that I am privileged that heaven begins now for me because He is with me, that the God of all creation and the universe is here and loves me and wants to guide me, then everything else that I could do without Him seemed unimportant and everything I did with Him seemed like laying up treasure in heaven to enjoy later.

Do what you love and let God use those talents and abilities He has placed in you to accomplish His purposes and He promises you will be blessed. Something will grow in you as you experience more of Him that will make you yearn to be with Him (He calls us His bride). One day, when you think of the end times, it won't be with fear ot dread but you will begin to feel in your spirit, Maranatha, "Come quickly, Lord Jesus." because you want more of what already know of Him and less of what this world can offer.

[NightSpirit]

Ecco, Bob, Pianoperformer

I don't believe in the doctrine of original sin and I don't find it in the Bible. Just like I might listen to all kind of theories on spiritual things, I am not persuaded that something is true because a lot of other people preach it. This is my soul and as far as I know, the only life I get, and it's too important to me to trust anyone else's idea of what is or ought to be true.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, because we choose to, not because we were created with sin. God could have killed Adam and Eve and started all over with any of us and the same thing would have happened. A person that doesn't know that about themselves, that there is knowledge of evil within them that stays with them whether or not they accept Jesus is deceiving themselves. But just to know about evil or merely to possess the capacity to do evil should not be a punishable offense as I see it.

If there is an original sin gene, so to speak, that keeps us from being accepted by God, since Jesus was born of a human Mary then He would have had the gene too. I know the Catholics have blocked this argument against the idea of original sin by adding a layer of sinlessness to Mary, saying she was also born without sin, but I don't accept that either as having any scriptural basis.

Jesus was the only man to perfectly resist temptation and that is why He is our King and the Second Adam. But some men before Him, Enoch and Elijah came close and God took them alive up to heaven to be with Him. If original sin exists as a barrier to fellowship with God, how did they get over it?

I will go more into what I think happened in the garden that day later when I have more time but if you will notice, the curse of Adam and Eve was all about earthly consequences. There is nothing in there of any hell mentioned or any spiritual consequences at all. And there was no separation from God and He did not stop talking to people as you will see a few verses over in the story of Cain and Abel.

The only possible way I could see the concept of inheriting anything from Adam is that they died spiritually that day and we as their offspring are born in a state of having no life in our spirit unless we are born again by the spirit. That may be true but I don't think so. I'll have to look into it in light of the rest of the scriptures, But to be banished to hell for the sin of Adam unless you are one of the lucky ones that hear about Jesus while you are on this earth, I know is not the truth just from what I read in the Old Testament.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Bob, your viewpoint always reminds me of Ecclesiastes.

Which is basically atheistic.

-----

So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.

All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
As it is with the good man,
so with the sinner;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.

This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.

Anyone who is among the living has hope - even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun - all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Well maybe if Bob is thinking as Solomon did, he will reach the same conclusion as Solomon.

Ecclesiastes 12
The Conclusion of the Matter
9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.

10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.

12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

This is what I think is happening with all of us in the cycles of our spiritual lives; some of us are tearing down and some are building.



Ecclesiastes 3
A Time for Everything

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,

3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,

4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,

5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,

6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,

7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,

8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Pianoperformer,

Sorry it is taking me so long to respond to some of your questions. You and my daughter are really making me study and search the Bible for references. I don't know if you read what I posted here a while back about what she has been through Does god exist? but if God never answers another prayer of mine, the answer to that one will keep me as long as I live. For her to go from the pit she was in to where she is now, from coming to my house at midnight all beaten up and bitten from being on the streets to calling me at midnight, like she did yesterday, while studying the Bible with her husband and asking me about something in there....that is more than I could have ever hoped would happen. She has been saved about 6 months now and she is trying to make up for lost time and wants to draw everything I know of God out of me as fast as possible.

That is so great and inspiring.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

What she called to ask about was the reference to what I told her about, the faith of the three Hebrews that were thrown in the furnace for not bowing to an idol. What they said, that "our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up" is similar to what Job said in "though he slay me, yet will I trust Him."

God did deliver Job and did walk with those men in the fire and delivered them but it was their faith that came out like gold, faith that God is good and will do what is right, even though we may not yet understand or must die rather than deny Him. The story is in Daniel 3 in case you haven't read it and that fourth man in the fire is Jesus. Most kids hear it in Sunday school but when my daughter was young, church was the furtherest thing from my mind, and that is one of my biggest regrets.

Yeah I've heard of that story.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

I thought these verses might also apply to you since you expressed some doubts about what the end of the world might mean to your plans. I understand the feeling and felt it too, the first time I tried to go to church at 18. The kind of faith we need to follow Jesus is the kind they had, where our trust in His goodness overrides our doubts about the future.

God loves us and is good. He said He will never leave us even until the ends of the earth and that He will deliver us. But if deliverance doesn't happen in the way we expect, He is still God and we know if we submit to Him, whatever happens will be right and He will reward our faith and restore our losses.

This verse is used a lot but tells us of the nature of God (Jeremiah 29:11) For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Other versions are translated as 'I know the plans I have for you....to give you a future and a hope.' God takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servants (Psalm 35:27) so we know God wants us to be happy and prosperous. That is His expected end for you and He always gets what He expects.

I know by outward appearances that it doesn't always seem that way and there are some, as the Bible says, that perversely only see 'gain as godliness'. But when a person can reach this state, as Paul said in Philippians 4:12-13, that whatever circumstances we find ourselves to be content then there is a peace in that.

I lost that feeling, that I might miss something or that God's will for me would be hard to accept when I came to God again at around 28. Once I got a vision of the kingdom of heaven and a knowledge that I am privileged that heaven begins now for me because He is with me, that the God of all creation and the universe is here and loves me and wants to guide me, then everything else that I could do without Him seemed unimportant and everything I did with Him seemed like laying up treasure in heaven to enjoy later.

Do what you love and let God use those talents and abilities He has placed in you to accomplish His purposes and He promises you will be blessed. Something will grow in you as you experience more of Him that will make you yearn to be with Him (He calls us His bride). One day, when you think of the end times, it won't be with fear ot dread but you will begin to feel in your spirit, Maranatha, "Come quickly, Lord Jesus." because you want more of what already know of Him and less of what this world can offer.

Thanks a lot. I do feel badly for feeling that way, but I do.

But I guess you are right. Whatever happens, we'll be happy in the end and there won't be any feeling of incompleteness.

Yes, I do hope I can use those talents.

Anyway, I wanted to ask, when and how did you start hearing God? I've seen you refer to that several times now, and it intrigues me.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Ecco, Bob, Pianoperformer

I don't believe in the doctrine of original sin and I don't find it in the Bible. Just like I might listen to all kind of theories on spiritual things, I am not persuaded that something is true because a lot of other people preach it. This is my soul and as far as I know, the only life I get, and it's too important to me to trust anyone else's idea of what is or ought to be true.

... Snip ...

Interesting. It's hard to respond unless you discuss what you do believe, instead. I have no idea yet what I think on the matter.

[pianoperformer]

NightSpirit,

I wanted to see what you think about another matter.

In Theology on Thursday, the professor used Matthew 16:18-19:

Matthew 16:18-19 (NIV)

[18] And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

to say that the Catholic church is infallible because God would not allow anything false to be taught within it.

What do you think of this? I mean, I don't really believe that myself, just because of the horrible, horrible things the Catholic Church has done in the past, that I know for a fact God was not behind.

Oh, he also said that since this power was given to Peter, that only his successors would have the same power, who they say were the various popes throughout history.

[Ecce Homo]

Fascinating. Ok, if you don’t mind Night Spirit, I’ll play the role of apologist for the traditional Christian perspective here. Steve Pavlina is not likely to attract many fundamentalists and traditionalist Christians for obvious reasons, so their voice is not usually heard on this forum, hence my playful decision to act as their spokesman in this discussion. What I find interesting about this exercise is the idea of “arguing” a point without identifying with it personally.

With regard to original sin, I did provide you with some scriptural references and you simply bypassed them without explanation. It’s right there, in black and white. I Corinthians 15:22 clearly states “since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive”. Merely saying you don’t believe that does not make it go away. Unless you do not believe that the bible is the word of God.

This is my soul and as far as I know, the only life I get, and it's too important to me to trust anyone else's idea of what is or ought to be true.

So you stand as your own highest authority then? Higher than the word of God even?

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, because we choose to, not because we were created with sin.

Why would we choose to sin? Why would a rational person choose separation from God? Could it be that we make that choice because we ARE sinners, because it is indeed our nature (Ephesians 2:3) and therefore it is inevitable that we choose to sin? And it is not just our capacity do evil that makes us objects of his wrath (Romans 9:22), it is that he is holy and cannot countenance sin. “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord almighty…” Isaiah 6:3 states. God commands us in his word to be holy, for he is holy repeatedly (Leviticus 11:44, I Peter 1:16). Without holiness we will not see God (Hebrews 12:14). Fortunately, God in his love provides a way of saving his beloved children while maintaining his perfect integrity by sending his Son Jesus to die for our sins and in our place. However, it is only by fully acknowledging our sin and that we sin because it is our nature, that we come to see the need for a savior. To suggest otherwise, to suggest that men sin only because they choose to is to also imply that any man or woman might not choose to, which would lead to the heretical doctrine that someone else could be just as perfect as Christ. If you can be just as perfect as Christ, you’d be God wouldn’t you?

With regard to Jesus and sin, no, he did not inherit the “sin gene” because unlike us, he was/is God (“For in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form”, Colossians 2:9) and therefore cannot know sin. Jesus was able to resist temptation because it was his nature to be sinless, just as it our nature to sin. He is by nature holy, we are by nature sinful.

As far as the Old Testament saints go, the only way they could have enjoyed a relationship with a holy God is the only way we can: salvation by grace through faith. In their case, the OT saints had faith in the coming messiah, while we have faith in the messiah that has already come and will come again.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Well maybe if Bob is thinking as Solomon did, he will reach the same conclusion as Solomon.

*chuckle* I knew you were going to say that. I didn't even need to bother. You are reliable as the rising sun, NightSpirit :-)

Although, I have never understood how the musings of Dan's quoted passage lead logically to the "conclusion of the matter". It is yet another one of those things in the Bible that looks "tacked on" by a scribe working for a nervous priest who felt he needed to act as god's editor and press agent.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

Fascinating. Ok, if you don’t mind Night Spirit, I’ll play the role of apologist for the traditional Christian perspective here.

Thank you, Ecce. It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it ;-)

FWIW I'd say you nailed it pretty good.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

In Theology on Thursday, the professor used Matthew 16:18-19:

[18] And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

...to say that the Catholic church is infallible because God would not allow anything false to be taught within it.

I looked and looked at that verse and darned if I see a single thing in there about infallibility.

I see a metaphor for endurance and ultimate victory of the church, and some sort of mystical keys that could be used to carry out the will of god on earth. But these "keys" would have to be used correctly to be any good, and I don't think it follows that just because you have an ability that you auto-magically get the benefits regardless of whether you do anything with them or wield them for good or for ill for Just Because You Can.

The Catholics look at this verse and see what they need to see to justify their actions and shut up potential critics.

I look at it and see it as no different than taking an earthly job. The boss may show you your cushy new corner office, your company car, and add you to the list of people who can summon the company jet, no questions asked. But does it then follow that how you use those things is infallible and guaranteed to succeed? And that you should automatically be bowed and scraped to? Or that you can't lose those privileges if you use them unwisely or contrary to the interests and purposes of the company?

If you accept that a person who was in fact god historically said this, then you should take the statement as far as it goes and no further. Peter was being handed the privileges AND responsibilities of his office, with the full backing of god, but it was still up to Peter and his successors to live up to that trust. And look at what a job they've made of that.

--Bob

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Interesting. It's hard to respond unless you discuss what you do believe, instead. I have no idea yet what I think on the matter.

Sorry, I thought it was clear from the context. I believe what Adam did caused physical death to enter into our existence, not give us a nature that is sinful even before we do anything.

I briefly menntioned my thoughts before on the doctrine of baptism of infants. That the Catholics believe we are born in sin and therefore worthy of damnation, we will not go to heaven if we die before being baptized.

Some other Christians also believe we need saving, not just from our own sins, from the sin of Adam but believe that God gives some grace toward children, that are not of the age of accountability.

I believe we are born with a fleshly body that loves pleasure but we are not guilty of sin or wrath, until we actually sin, which I believe means to use our bodies or minds to oppose God, which we all do.

[pianoperformer]

Bob, good point. His point was that if there was falsehood in the church, then to him, that means the gates of Hades had overcome it.

But I also see what you are saying.

The problem I have with the Catholic church is the excessive focus on the rules and requirements, almost devoid of the actual experience of God. I don't know too many Catholics who go beyond those rules into actually studying the Bible and trying to develop a relationship with God. They just go to church every Sunday, confess their sins, and hope it is enough. That really bothers me.

I know they have answers for everything, but it all seems a bit, forced.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Sorry, I thought it was clear from the context. I believe what Adam did caused physical death to enter into our existence, not give us a nature that is sinful even before we do anything.

I briefly menntioned my thoughts before on the doctrine of baptism of infants. That the Catholics believe we are born in sin and therefore worthy of damnation, we will not go to heaven if we die before being baptized.

Some other Christians also believe we need saving, not just from our own sins, from the sin of Adam but believe that God gives some grace toward children, that are not of the age of accountability.

I believe we are born with a fleshly body that loves pleasure but we are not guilty of sin or wrath, until we actually sin, which I believe means to use our bodies or minds to oppose God, which we all do.

Perhaps. But then what will be different about us when the Earth is made into a paradise? Will we act any better then?

I am curious how you would answer Ecce Homo's points.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Bob, good point. His point was that if there was falsehood in the church, then to him, that means the gates of Hades had overcome it.

Well ... I think it was just hyperbole. "the gates of hell will not prevail against it" says nothing about time frame, nor about exactly what is meant by "prevail", or even whether "the gates of hell" is specifically the literal, personal forces of evil or just evil generally.

The church could "prevail" by being infallible in all its decisions, but more likely it will just succeed in its mission, warts and all, in some ultimate sense. That seems the natural, unforced way to take Jesus' remarks, as opposed to the way that reflects hundreds of years of the Church's ego investment in its own infallibility.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

The problem I have with the Catholic church is the excessive focus on the rules and requirements, almost devoid of the actual experience of God.

I don't know. Many protestant denominations are quire legalistic, too, just in different ways. The distinctive of the Catholic church is not legalism per se, but ritual and tradition. Also, as the word "catholic" implies, they claim universality. To make this claim they needed to claim infallibility, the unbroken line of succession from Peter down to the present Pope, etc. Catholics I have spoken to revel in this. They're proud of it and find the sense that their beliefs have been handed down through the millennia extremely appealing and comforting.

My wife and I felt the appeal of this in a way many years ago when we attended Evensong services at Westminster Abbey in London (Church of England, a Catholic splinter group from hundreds of years ago, but similar milieu). There was something very primal about a simple reading of scripture in that vast and ancient building, where people had worshiped for hundreds of years. Almost like a lingering psychic footprint of the hopes and dreams of millions of people and scores of historic ceremonies including coronations and the like. Don't underestimate the impact of beautiful architecture and unity of thought connected with a consecrated space. Especially when the unity of thought and practice has a continuity that exceeds just the life span of those present at the moment.

Although the word "ritual" implies something done without any thought or emotional connection, and I have no doubt that many, maybe even most, Catholics, go through their genuflections, chants, rosaries, formulaic prayers, etc. in a mechanical fashion, it is not that way for all of them. These experiences are what you make of them. Approached one way, it's something you do because you've been coached to, that means nothing to you. Approached another way, it allows you to imagine that you are participating in a sort of mystical dance that has been indirectly handed down to you from of old by god himself. Approached another way, it's a kind of meditation practice.

And yes, a minority of Catholics even personalize their faith. As an extreme example, the 70's charismatic "awakening" within the church in America. More prosaically, some Catholic churches have very protestant-like Bible studies and prayer groups.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that there is no value for anyone in a belief system just because it's not the one you choose. People give the meaning they chose to give to things, and it's possible to have a very meaningful spiritual life in the Catholic church or indeed any church. I say, "whatever works" for each and every one. That is why I am not hostile to people of faith, so long as they respect where I'm at.

One last point. I have a close friend who is a devout lifelong Catholic in the sense that he goes to mass once a week and often volunteers for church-sponsored activities. I don't think he takes his dogma very seriously and I don't think he prays daily or is spiritual in that sense. Yet, he has the most perfect and humble personal integrity I have ever encountered, and tremendously good common sense. I choose him as a friend even though he's "less spiritual" than me in the sense that he doesn't spend much time thinking about spiritual things and in fact is fairly incurious about them. Yet, I admire the man and would trust him with my life. He is more moral than most Christians and more Zen than most Buddhists.

Would it really improve his character or peace of mind if he had a "dynamic personal faith", whatever that exactly is? I don't think so.

As my wife was very fond of saying, "watch what they do, not what they say". I will take someone who is good any day over someone who is merely excited about the idea of goodness.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Perhaps. But then what will be different about us when the Earth is made into a paradise? Will we act any better then?

I am curious how you would answer Ecce Homo's points.

I am curious about her thoughts on this question too, but I will say, to my knowledge the church for the most part has no thoughts about it. Heaven is always presented as a place where we are automatically made perfect and whole, instantly free of our "sin nature" / hangups / prejudices / ignorance / wrong ideas and perceptions.

If it weren't that way, it wouldn't be "heaven".

It was originally rather provocative for me to hear that some people, mostly outside the church, believe that heaven is a place of continued growth, responsibility, and challenge. Although when you stop to think about it, that actually would make more sense than a conveniently flawless and complete bliss with no purpose less ambiguous than harp-strumming.

Indeed, nothing says that the afterlife won't suck. Some even claim variously that restlessness, boredom, or unresolved issues, eventually compel most to reincarnate, even though no one explicitly "makes" them. Who's to say; it's all stories and any or none of them could be true. But I don't make any assumptions about the afterlife. A universe that could cook up life on earth probably isn't going to get life off earth right either ;-)

--Bob

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Retaining our identity and memories and always moving forward to a better reality is the only kind of afterlife that interests me. Otherwise if it's offered, I'll take what's behind door number three: oblivion.

I guess I'm just an old soul.

There is a door number 4. It is the door chosen by the bodhisattva.

(You might recall that in an earlier post, I had said that if Jesus were classified within the Buddhist categories of sentient beings, he would be classified as a bodhisattva).

The bodhisattva is the enlightened being who has already transcended the samsaric cycle of reincarnation. However, he voluntarily chooses to come back every now and then, and take on a human life, and during that lifetime he will seek to help others free themselves from suffering and pain.

Essentially the arrival of Jesus on earth is a great example of the return of a bodhisattva.

If / when he returns (for his prophesied "2nd coming"), well, that will be the return again of a bodhisatvva.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I am curious about her thoughts on this question too, but I will say, to my knowledge the church for the most part has no thoughts about it. Heaven is always presented as a place where we are automatically made perfect and whole, instantly free of our "sin nature" / hangups / prejudices / ignorance / wrong ideas and perceptions.

Haaaaahahahaa! You're a Buddhist in disguise.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Haaaaahahahaa! You're a Buddhist in disguise.

Bwuh-ha-ha!

Seriously, I don't dislike the idea of going from zero to hero like that, I just think it sounds suspiciously unlikely. But I don't want to go the other extreme of spending thousands of years bludgeoning my ego to death with a crowbar, either. I'm not looking for trouble ;-)

--Bob

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Well ... I think it was just hyperbole. "the gates of hell will not prevail against it" says nothing about time frame, nor about exactly what is meant by "prevail", or even whether "the gates of hell" is specifically the literal, personal forces of evil or just evil generally.

The church could "prevail" by being infallible in all its decisions, but more likely it will just succeed in its mission, warts and all, in some ultimate sense. That seems the natural, unforced way to take Jesus' remarks, as opposed to the way that reflects hundreds of years of the Church's ego investment in its own infallibility.

Yeah, I agree. I guess I see that for the first part of what I said, but did think it was interesting what he said about the successors of Peter.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I don't know. Many protestant denominations are quire legalistic, too, just in different ways. The distinctive of the Catholic church is not legalism per se, but ritual and tradition.

I'm not sure I see the difference. What is your differentiation?

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Also, as the word "catholic" implies, they claim universality. To make this claim they needed to claim infallibility, the unbroken line of succession from Peter down to the present Pope, etc. Catholics I have spoken to revel in this. They're proud of it and find the sense that their beliefs have been handed down through the millennia extremely appealing and comforting.

My wife and I felt the appeal of this in a way many years ago when we attended Evensong services at Westminster Abbey in London (Church of England, a Catholic splinter group from hundreds of years ago, but similar milieu). There was something very primal about a simple reading of scripture in that vast and ancient building, where people had worshiped for hundreds of years. Almost like a lingering psychic footprint of the hopes and dreams of millions of people and scores of historic ceremonies including coronations and the like. Don't underestimate the impact of beautiful architecture and unity of thought connected with a consecrated space. Especially when the unity of thought and practice has a continuity that exceeds just the life span of those present at the moment.

I totally agree with that. It is quite majestic.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Although the word "ritual" implies something done without any thought or emotional connection, and I have no doubt that many, maybe even most, Catholics, go through their genuflections, chants, rosaries, formulaic prayers, etc. in a mechanical fashion, it is not that way for all of them. These experiences are what you make of them. Approached one way, it's something you do because you've been coached to, that means nothing to you. Approached another way, it allows you to imagine that you are participating in a sort of mystical dance that has been indirectly handed down to you from of old by god himself. Approached another way, it's a kind of meditation practice.

And yes, a minority of Catholics even personalize their faith. As an extreme example, the 70's charismatic "awakening" within the church in America. More prosaically, some Catholic churches have very protestant-like Bible studies and prayer groups.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that there is no value for anyone in a belief system just because it's not the one you choose. People give the meaning they chose to give to things, and it's possible to have a very meaningful spiritual life in the Catholic church or indeed any church. I say, "whatever works" for each and every one. That is why I am not hostile to people of faith, so long as they respect where I'm at.

Oh, I think you misunderstand me. I just said that that is how the majority of Catholics I have met have been, but not that there is absolutely no value. If the experience comes first and then those rituals and traditions are added, I think it can be quite powerful indeed. Many of the Catholics I know, though, just do what the church says, and never take it further than that.

That might be fine for them, but to me, that's missing the point of faith and the church.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

One last point. I have a close friend who is a devout lifelong Catholic in the sense that he goes to mass once a week and often volunteers for church-sponsored activities. I don't think he takes his dogma very seriously and I don't think he prays daily or is spiritual in that sense. Yet, he has the most perfect and humble personal integrity I have ever encountered, and tremendously good common sense. I choose him as a friend even though he's "less spiritual" than me in the sense that he doesn't spend much time thinking about spiritual things and in fact is fairly incurious about them. Yet, I admire the man and would trust him with my life. He is more moral than most Christians and more Zen than most Buddhists.

Would it really improve his character or peace of mind if he had a "dynamic personal faith", whatever that exactly is? I don't think so.

As my wife was very fond of saying, "watch what they do, not what they say". I will take someone who is good any day over someone who is merely excited about the idea of goodness.

--Bob

I mostly agree with you, except to say that a "dynamic personal faith" probably would still make a difference. It's great he is already like that without it, though.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I am curious about her thoughts on this question too, but I will say, to my knowledge the church for the most part has no thoughts about it. Heaven is always presented as a place where we are automatically made perfect and whole, instantly free of our "sin nature" / hangups / prejudices / ignorance / wrong ideas and perceptions.

If it weren't that way, it wouldn't be "heaven".

It was originally rather provocative for me to hear that some people, mostly outside the church, believe that heaven is a place of continued growth, responsibility, and challenge. Although when you stop to think about it, that actually would make more sense than a conveniently flawless and complete bliss with no purpose less ambiguous than harp-strumming.

Indeed, nothing says that the afterlife won't suck. Some even claim variously that restlessness, boredom, or unresolved issues, eventually compel most to reincarnate, even though no one explicitly "makes" them. Who's to say; it's all stories and any or none of them could be true. But I don't make any assumptions about the afterlife. A universe that could cook up life on earth probably isn't going to get life off earth right either ;-)

--Bob

Bob,

You do have a point. I'm really not sure.

Actually, I'm not talking about heaven right now, but the "new Earth" spoken of in Revelation. My thought was that if there is no original sin to be erased, then what will be different from now to that new Earth, besides a healed Earth? If the tendency for many of us is sin, then what will change? If there is no original sin to be erased, what's to prevent war, violence, etc? Even the best of Christians aren't perfect.

I'm just interested how NightSpirit sees this because it's a new perspective to me.

[Dan.Linehan]

-- Transcript --

Catholic Church Marquee: All dogs go to Heaven.

Presbyterian Church Marquee: Only humans go to Heaven. Read the Bible.

Updated Catholic Church Marquee: God loves all his creations. Dogs included.

Updated Presbyterian Church Marquee: Dogs don't have souls. This is not open for debate.

Updated Catholic Church Marquee: Catholic dogs go to Heaven. Presbyterian dogs can talk to their pastor.

Updated Presbyterian Church Marquee: Converting to Catholicism does not magically grant your dog a soul.

Updated Catholic Church Marquee: Free dog souls with conversion!

Updated Presbyterian Church Marquee: Dogs are animals, there aren't any rocks in Heaven either.

Updated Catholic Church Marquee: All rocks go to Heaven.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Bob, good point. His point was that if there was falsehood in the church, then to him, that means the gates of Hades had overcome it.

But I also see what you are saying.

The problem I have with the Catholic church is the excessive focus on the rules and requirements, almost devoid of the actual experience of God. I don't know too many Catholics who go beyond those rules into actually studying the Bible and trying to develop a relationship with God. They just go to church every Sunday, confess their sins, and hope it is enough. That really bothers me.

I know they have answers for everything, but it all seems a bit, forced.

Catholics are just as devoted as any other Christians. And also, they are just as apathetic.

Lots of of people just go through the motions. It doesn't seem to matter what denomination they are from... or even if they are religious or not.

My father has a saying: "It only looks that way from the outside."

It means that a person's judgment of something is different when one is not directly involved with that something.

In the book Prometheus Rising, which has nothing to do with Christianity, Robert Anton Wilson suggests taking on different people's 'reality tunnels'. Instead of just looking at a worldview from the outside, you take on the worldview and observe what changes occur in yourself and the world you live in.

I think you have to do this with spirituality because you are dealing with the internal/subjective and any external/objective musings are pure speculation.

It's like buying a car. The specifications are important, but you need to take it for a test drive and feel if it is comfortable for you. Catholicism is like a Cadillac. It comes with all the features and ensures a smooth ride. Protestantism is like a Porsche. It's fast and stylish. Personally, my faith is like a Ford Pinto. It's basic, but it gets you where you want to go.

Sometimes I think the problem with smart people is that we constantly have to make things so complex or we just assume it is BS. I like a simple faith.