Is your religion peaceful?

[Howie17]

Uh, actually, no it doesn't.

Christianity - well, pretty much any religion for that matter - states categorically that it is the only one true way. John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" (emphasis added) Everyone else will get sent south without an electric fan.

There are many interpretations of the text of the Bible, to say which are more accurate is not my place, but I consistently notice that those that appose the Bible's teaching, consistently point out the negativity in every interpretation of individual verses, as if "All Christians" interpret the text the same way. Easy example, many Americans falsely stereotyped all Muslims into being extremists after the attacks on 9/11. This has similarly been going on all our existence, we did this to the Japanese during WWII, this caused paranoia in America when Russian communism was at its peak.

Christianity cannot be disproved without individually countering each interpretation of the Bible, have fun with that, as just about every Christian that isn't blindly accepting, has their own interpretations.

Note for the purposes of full disclosure: I was really, REALLY involved in the Christian church for a while. Had my eyes cruelly and brutally opened by some of the astoundingly violent teachings in the Old Testament and some of the ways that some modern Christians use New Testament teachings to further their own financial, cultural and social aims.

I've experienced the same resentment towards the commonly held interpretations of the Bible, that cause people to force their religion upon others, but at the end of the day, none of that disproves the validity of the Bible. Due to this realization, I sat back down with the Bible, gave it all my interpretation, and I walked away having experienced a lot of truths.

Widespread Christianity is fighting something that isn't there place to win, and people that fight this view of Christianity can't win, as it isn't disprovable, they're just feeding the negative side of stereotyping.

[Uplift]

[QUOTE=Michael Chui;22908]To reply properly to the OP, I pull a quotation out of the dialogue I just linked.



Take this, and then take another basic truth: dead men tell no tales. /QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I don't really approve of the website this is on, but I was searching for a list of punishments, and this one fit the bill pretty well. It's hard to deny explicit quotations from the Bible.

Ten Commandments

These aren't teachings of violence, no. They're commandments.

Looks like dead men do tell tales!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Looks like dead men do tell tales!

They do not. That tale was mine.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

They do not. That tale was mine.

So your commandments?

[Michael Chui]

Are you implying God is dead?

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Are you implying God is dead?

No, but the Greek and Roman censors are.

[toasterwater]

you know.... regardless of whether that is the new law or the old law, the fact is that according to the christian bible, God commanded that people be killed for some pretty messed up reasons. he ordered for entire villages to be killed and for all their stuff to be destroyed and/or pillaged... all because of their religious beliefs.

Now, I don't know about any of you, but that doesn't sound like the God I hope exists...

And another interesting thought... If he changed the law once, who is to say he wont do it again?

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by toasterwater

you know.... regardless of whether that is the new law or the old law, the fact is that according to the christian bible, God commanded that people be killed for some pretty messed up reasons. he ordered for entire villages to be killed and for all their stuff to be destroyed and/or pillaged... all because of their religious beliefs.

Now, I don't know about any of you, but that doesn't sound like the God I hope exists...

And another interesting thought... If he changed the law once, who is to say he wont do it again?

I totally agree.

Nor does it sound like the Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and so on that I believe existed. Mysteriously, there are no women amongst that lot.

For some reason our culture has the the utmost faith in the honesty and wisdom of the Greeks and Romans of the time. We love to point out how much we owe them, and how, through their philosophy, they shaped our modern thinking. Philosophy, just another religion to me, is held up as the bastion of truth, wisdom, civility and rational, logical thinking. Yet, under scrutiny it falls far short of that. For instance;

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Sounds a lot like old testament religion to me.

Philosophers (again suspiciously male dominated) and philosophy are idolised and portrayed and thought of by many as open minded, civilised bastions of free, logical, rational thinking and knowledge. Brute force, war, terror and violence were the real tools used to spread their word. The Greeks and Romans of the time were the masters of censorship, propaganda mongering, brainwashing, manipulation, ethnic cleansing, and so on. Why use certain religions as a the main scapegoat for domination and bloodshed, although I wholeheartedly agree with your comments in that regard. I just reckon they were only one censored, twisted, manipulated prong of the fork wielded by the power crazy Greeks and Romans of the era. The brainwashing worked so well, people swarm to see and preserve the theatres and arenas, quoting flowery phrases, dabbling in the euphoric skill of logic and reason, despite them being the home of a hitler like regime of brutality.

As an example, take what the church was able to do with so called 'paganism' and (again suspiciously Classical Greek and Roman flavoured) women. The modern picture we have of witches, warlocks, crone's and women is a classic case of attempting (and with regard to the general population succeeding) in completely erasing and distorting the truth. Personally, I have no doubt that Jesus and his teachings would have have recieved the full attention and treatment of the maniacal Greeks and Romans of the day. I don't blame God for one second.

[toasterwater]

Hmm... uplift, I am kinda confused by your last post. I understand the bulk of your post... which is basically a history lesson (an informative one too )... but you start the post by agreeing with my previous post, then at the end it seems (by the comment "I don't blame God for one second") that you contradict your own position...

Are you saying that you think God did command that people be killed based on their beliefs (because their beliefs were... for lack of a better word... bad)? Or are you being satirical in that statement and holding your position that you do NOT believe God would do those things?

I dunno... good post, but the wording kinda threw me off.

[Chado2423]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Uh, actually, no it doesn't.

Christianity - well, pretty much any religion for that matter - states categorically that it is the only one true way. John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" (emphasis added) Everyone else will get sent south without an electric fan.

Doesn't sound too peaceful or inclusive to me.

Note for the purposes of full disclosure: I was really, REALLY involved in the Christian church for a while. Had my eyes cruelly and brutally opened by some of the astoundingly violent teachings in the Old Testament and some of the ways that some modern Christians use New Testament teachings to further their own financial, cultural and social aims.

I have yet to see any religion that doesn't ask their congregation to leave their brains at the door.

All are welcome if they accept the proper beliefs.... Love is the Law...

[toasterwater]

Originally posted by Chado2423
All are welcome if they accept the proper beliefs.... Love is the Law...

Hmm... what do you mean by "love is the law"? based on your first statement there, accepting "proper" beliefs is the law...

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by toasterwater

Hmm... uplift, I am kinda confused by your last post. I understand the bulk of your post... which is basically a history lesson (an informative one too )... but you start the post by agreeing with my previous post, then at the end it seems (by the comment "I don't blame God for one second") that you contradict your own position...

Are you saying that you think God did command that people be killed based on their beliefs (because their beliefs were... for lack of a better word... bad)? Or are you being satirical in that statement and holding your position that you do NOT believe God would do those things?

I dunno... good post, but the wording kinda threw me off.

I believe the supposed words of God are the words of man eventually presented as the Bible by the Greeks and Romans. And that is not to say that it is the only place or time in the world similar use of similar tactics took place. I don't believe God, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed (again suprisingly all male) had anything to do with the violent views advocated.

[Chado2423]

Originally Posted by toasterwater

Hmm... what do you mean by "love is the law"? based on your first statement there, accepting "proper" beliefs is the law...

Proper is such a superficial word agreed, but I will explain what I meant by "love is the law"

Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

When we free ourselves to truly love... to love ourselves as ourselvs, to love others as they are, and to love Deity then we are aligned with fulfilling the law.

I am not a Christian, in the traditional Judeo-Christian perspective... but I do think I understand that Paul is trying to make it clear that above all else is love, God's love which flows through us. Anything opposed to love would be against the new law of love. The old laws were about retribution and justice... the new law was about love in a pure sense, and I believe Paul understood this, through his writings. The old laws were a series of decrees found within the Penteteuch, which is also know to some as Torah.

In the new Testament however we see a comparison of the old ways of living compared to the new ways of living. Why? Because the whole theme of the overall story of the Bible is a story about God's forgiving grace, being able to put off the old ways of hate, deceit, false judgements, and putting on new ways of peace, understanding, love, and faith. As a Christian comes to Truly know His God he becomes a symbolic new creation and wants to obey His law and he does so out of pure reverence and love toward the Father... and upon following the principles comes to see himself through a light of love and forgiveness... and sees others in a similar way.

[toasterwater]

hmm... interesting. Very eloquent response, chado.

Now... the vibe im getting from what you say in that last post is that the old testament laws of punishment and retribution and what not, are simply an example of how things COULD be if God was not so loving and forgiving.

Now... in my eyes, this would by fine if it was in fact, just a story... but if these things all supposedely happened (which, according to any christian authority, they did...) then that means that up to a certain point in history, every living man got the shaft just so that we would have a nice example to learn from.

In my opinion, If there is a God, I would not think that he would be a dick for thousands of years only to suddenly change into a nice guy, just so that he could show everyone how nice he is in comparison to how much of a dick he could be... (I'm pretty sure that is another... not so nice way of phrasing this whole concept).

Why wouldn't God just start things with the law of love? I mean... he's God right? so he is, and has always been omnipotent, omnicient, and all those other omni-things. So back in the day, when retribution was the law, he knew that someday he would change the law to the law of love... why did he ever use the old law? it seems as though that was just a pretty mean thing to do...

and concerning the following quote:

Originally Posted by: Chado2423
As a Christian comes to Truly know His God he becomes a symbolic new creation and wants to obey His law and he does so out of pure reverence and love toward the Father... and upon following the principles comes to see himself through a light of love and forgiveness... and sees others in a similar way.

I think that there may be other reasons that a Christian may want to obey the father (aside from pure reverence and love)... namely fear of an eternity in hell... but correct me if I'm wrong...

[Amandaaa]

is it possible for the world to live peacefully as one nation?

i think so.

and i think John Lennon would agree...

[Chado2423]

Originally Posted by toasterwater

hmm... interesting. Very eloquent response, chado.

Now... the vibe im getting from what you say in that last post is that the old testament laws of punishment and retribution and what not, are simply an example of how things COULD be if God was not so loving and forgiving.

Now... in my eyes, this would by fine if it was in fact, just a story... but if these things all supposedely happened (which, according to any christian authority, they did...) then that means that up to a certain point in history, every living man got the shaft just so that we would have a nice example to learn from.

In my opinion, If there is a God, I would not think that he would be a dick for thousands of years only to suddenly change into a nice guy, just so that he could show everyone how nice he is in comparison to how much of a dick he could be... (I'm pretty sure that is another... not so nice way of phrasing this whole concept).

Why wouldn't God just start things with the law of love? I mean... he's God right? so he is, and has always been omnipotent, omnicient, and all those other omni-things. So back in the day, when retribution was the law, he knew that someday he would change the law to the law of love... why did he ever use the old law? it seems as though that was just a pretty mean thing to do...

and concerning the following quote:



I think that there may be other reasons that a Christian may want to obey the father (aside from pure reverence and love)... namely fear of an eternity in hell... but correct me if I'm wrong...

He did start of as a God of Love, but also as a God of Justice... It was man who moved away from God, which is why Moses had need to go on top of the mountain to hear the True Words of the Law of God. Man moved away from the Love, so therefore God moved to the realm of vengence. Yet, through prophecy he promised that his vengence would not last forever, and that the Law would be fulfilled (what law, The First law.) The Second Law is Justice, wheras the First Law is Love. This does not have to deter you from your faith, but rather to understand that your God is one of Both Laws... but the First Law is what God wishes man to return to, which is why he provides wrath as well as grace.


Yes, I see these as exemplatory, because personally I do not adhere to any faith as being absolute truth. For me, I search for the ultimate morality and principles within such stories to show me how to be wise, humble, etc. This is my personal choice after studied a variety of religions. Yet, should a Christian not veiw these stories in a similar vien, in order to understand better how to walk in pure alignment with their belief system? Why do you think Jesus told parables... to tell stories that were absolutely true, or to reveal the message of truth to the masses through them? The purpose was not to tell true stories, but to tell stories about how one should live, right? This is after all what the story of the Bible as a whole is to do as well... we put off our old ways and put on the new ways, and become better people as a result... this is why there are two testaments... two laws. The morality of the old laws were for a time when man was away from God, to show man true responsibility, the ways of the new laws show man responsibility, but also with an attitude of unconditional love. Btw, The Law of Love was merely called "the new law", because people had become so accustomed to the other laws... it was an old law reborn, made new...

fear from an eternity in hell...
The Christian God is after all symbolic of total safety, and Security, directing you in the right way, the "only way"(acc. to the Christian tradition, that is), keeping you from danger, supporting you when you're down, he is the "shelter in the time of storm..." One coming to God out of fear, does so because they seek comfort... in time they should according to the principles of their own faith learn to honor such noble deeds by such a caring Deity... if not, then they move away from reverence, and then they move away from their God.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Angela

Really? Do you respect the religious belief that calls for every young girl's clitoris to be sliced off? How about the religious belief that called for the murder of Salman Rushdie, do you respect that? Have you always respected the religious belief that mandates that the punishment for having doubts is being killed? I have no such respect.

I don't really like to be antagonistic, but I have to agree with you here. I can't personally respect the majority of religious teachings or institutions out there any more than I could say I "don't agree with, but still respect" the Third Reich and the tenets of Hiter's National Socialism.