How do Atheists define sin?

[Lexi]

I grew up in a very religious (not necessarily spiritual) household, and I was constantly reminded all my life that "sin" would destroy me in hell. Now I think that mentality is very limiting, but it seems as if you believe in God and the bible, you must believe in sin (or else you'll burn in hell).

How do atheists define sin?

How do you define or measure things like pre-marital sex, lying to your boss, not giving 10% of your paycheck to church, etc.?

** My apologies if this has been discussed before. I have a very slow connection and didn't have time to go through all the posts.

[Lanya]

In the period immediately after I rejected my religious upbringing, I thought morality was still objective. Also, the rules of morality for me were pretty similar to what they were before rejection (faith was just irrelevant). The consequence of "sinning" was simply the knowledge that I didn't do the "right" thing.

At this point, though, what constitutes "sinning" is completely subjective to me.

[Holistic Star]

I thought the point of athesim is that you don't believe in sin. An atheist doesn't believe that there is a man with a beard up in the sky judging your every move.

My beliefs have changed. I attended church by choice from the ages between 10 and 15, then I became an atheist. Now I believe in an intelligent universe but don't follow any religious texts.
I believe in a very live and let live philsophy, i.e. if what someone wants to do doesn't hurt anyone else then I believe they should be allowed to do it.

Here is my take on the situations your asked about.

Pre-marital sex: Yes, so long as both parties are fully consenting.
Lying to your boss - I think this is a bad idea, I prefer to align myself with truth.
Not giving 10% of income to church - never occured to me to do this! I support certain charities instead.

[Angela]

I think the word "sin" means "without god", so to an atheist, it's redundant. Everything is without god, because there is no god.

But if atheists put aside that religion-derived use of the word, there might be parallels, like, "without integrity" or "without 100% responsibility" or "without being aligned with my values."

If I were to use that definition, sin might include:

-- Not having sex with someone I love and desire, but to whom I'm not married -- that would be one of the worst possible sins!

-- Being dishonest, including to my boss, is probably not going to line up with my integrity, responsibility, or other values, so that's not gonna work. I'm sure there are exceptions, though, when it might be more kind or productive to lie to my boss or at least not tell the whole, direct, bald truth.

-- Giving any money at all to any church would be a sin, unless I was quite confident that every single penny would be going to a cause I support, and not one thin dime to the church itself or the people associated with it. That circumstance seems a little unlikely to me, but I guess it's possible.

[Brutha]

In general atheists don't use the concept of sin.
There are a lot of different moral systems that different people use.
There is the Kantian idea that you shouldn't behave in a way that you don't want to become general law. That more or less the golden rule.

Then there is utilitarianism which means that your actions should maximise the total well being of all persons in the world.

There are also more far out concepts like the one that Steve develops in his posts.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think the word "sin" means "without god", so to an atheist, it's redundant. Everything is without god, because there is no god.

But if atheists put aside that religion-derived use of the word, there might be parallels, like, "without integrity" or "without 100% responsibility" or "without being aligned with my values."

I wasn't sure what dictionary said that "sin" means "without God." I presumed you meant etymologically, so from curiousity and an interest in etymology, I had to look it up...No idea where the "without God" bit came from.

Sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Online Etymology Dictionary
Sin: Encyclopedia II - Sin - Etymology

therefore, it is not redundant to an atheist and it doesn't mean "without God." According to the etymology, there isn't even any religious connotation with the word at all. It's just a word.

Maybe if you don't believe in God, a sin becomes doing something you don't want to do...or doing something that is bad for you, or bad for you and others, or bad just for others, depending on your personal values.

P.S. Check out the "Global Oneness Committment" site on the last link I listed. They are building a hall in which 8,000 people will continually meditate in shifts to raise the level of consciousness of humanity. The site also has forums and other information. I haven't looked at it much, but it seems to be in harmony with a lot of values of the people on this site.

[Angela]

Bitsy, I got the idea that sin means "without god" from my mom (sin actually means "without" in Spanish, and maybe she was just feeding me a line that it had a Latin root ). But in any case, it makes sense to me that without a belief in a personal interventionist god, the idea of "sin" is moot. Sin does not equal "something you just don't want to do" if you're an atheist. Sin is just, well, nothing at all -- it doesn't exist. That's a pretty big "without" if you ask me! And again, if you were to make a corollary that may apply to what an atheist would prefer to avoid for purposes of what she feels is right or wrong, then I would choose what you described: if it doesn't work for me or for others alongside my values, then a more inspiring action would be worth looking for.

"Sin." It's such a scary word. It reminds me of the bloody jesus statues my aunties used to keep in their bedrooms. Eeek.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Angela

Bitsy, I got the idea that sin means "without god" from my mom

Ah, mystery solved. She wasn't an etymologist I take it .

Originally Posted by Angela

(sin actually means "without" in Spanish, and maybe she was just feeding me a line that it had a Latin root ).

Ok, I said something wrong, it wasn't "just a word" after all, it did have more grave connotations than I thought. Anyhow, the sources I found don't seem to know what is its true source, but Latin is also listed, however, the Latin word was "sons," meaning "guilty, criminal." More directly, it is from Old English "synn" (offense, misdeed), which could ultimately be from Old Norse (which is similar to Swedish ) "sannr" which means "true." And some etymologists think the Germanic word was directly borrowed from the genetive form of the Latin word "sons."

Isn't etymology fun? Oh, then there's historical linguistics, that's fun too . (Maybe I should have stayed in university and gotten a PhD...hmm, too late now.)

Anyhow, no "without" in any of that.

So maybe in a religious sense, "sin" is not applicable to an atheist, but to me, sin is a word to refer to doing bad things to other people or to oneself that doesn't need to have any religious overtones. Because whether or not you believe in God, whether or not you have a religion and regardless of what that religion might be, the same acts that are called "sins" are done or not done for different reasons, hurtful things are still done and whether you call it a sin or not is as irrevelevant as if you are an atheist or not. It's not the label that matters, its the acts that they called sins. I presume the concept of hurting others and oneself still exists for an atheist. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters and the rest is just semantics or socio-linguistics (another really fun subject ).

Originally Posted by Angela

"Sin." It's such a scary word. It reminds me of the bloody jesus statues my aunties used to keep in their bedrooms. Eeek.

Funny, my great aunts had this statue of Mary holding a dead Jesus in her lap, also with blood, and when I was little, I had no idea what or who it was. I just thought it was a statue and I loved it, because it "pulled at my heartstrings" and it really touched me. When I got older and found out what it was (a Pieta), I didn't like it anymore because I guess it cheapened it for me and I still feel that way.

[Angela]

I think it's more than just semantics. For instance, the idea of having sex before marriage -- that's a sin in the catholic church, but outside of religious belief, is it "harmful"? Does it hurt others? Same with this idea of tithing. Not giving the church money is "harmful" or hurts others? Well, no more than it hurts me that you don't give me 10% of your income. Coveting thy neighbor's wife? Well, it's not going to contribute much to your personal growth to be envious of someone else's sexual situation, but it's not "wrong," either, at least not as far as this atheist is concerned. Okay, murder, that one I have a hard time with. But that sort of a golden rule one.

Even aside from semantics, one man's sin is another's next right action.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think it's more than just semantics.

Not to me. And I don't concern myself about church stuff. I know, that's what the thread was about...but since I believe in God, I don't have to answer the question--I just wanted to point out the etymology stuff .

Originally Posted by Angela

Even aside from semantics, one man's sin is another's next right action.

I don't know...personally, I doubt any of the ten commandments would ever be my next right action. I hate discussing "church" stuff, mostly because I don't know much about it, which is totally because I don't care in the least. I have my own standards and I don't have to bother with them. It was all for the etymology, I swear .

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Brutha

In general atheists don't use the concept of sin.
There are a lot of different moral systems that different people use.

Yeah, as an aitheist who didn't believe in the spiritual world or an after-life until very recently, I had no use for the concept of Sin. Sin meaning that if I do something bad on earth, I'd be punished by some outside-of-myself entity called God in the after-life.

However, I believed in principles of life which state that being dishonest, stealing, robbing, initiating act of violence, etc harmed me more then it even harmed others. Not from the reaction from the outside world, but from my own internal reaction, from what goes on inside of me if I commit any of these things. If I lied to others, then I knew it would damage my self-concept, and my ability to be honest with myself. Lying to others would also amount to telling myself "I'm not good enough to handle life without lying", thus harming myself even more. Therefore, I strived hard to be honest in all of my dealings.

So, it's very possible to live an ethical life without having any use of the concept of "sin", or the fear of punishment by some outside force after life is over.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

I don't know...personally, I doubt any of the ten commandments would ever be my next right action.

You mean: you doubt that the things forbidden by the ten commandments would ever be your next right action?

Like, you don't think your next right action might ever be doing some work on a Saturday?

Just joshin' ya. I know you were just talking about words.

[carenkh]

One of my favorite definitions of sin is from the book "Father Melancholy's Daughter" by Gail Godwin. "A falling short from your totality. Choosing to live in ways you know interfere with the harmony of that totality."

Now, when I hear the word sin, I no longer think of wrong, or punishment... just a falling short.

Of course, since it's your TOTALITY, the falling short is part of that, too... but I know what she means.

[NightSpirit]

I am not an atheist but the idea of sin in most Christian churches is called "missing the mark". That meaning is supposed to come from the original Greek word. Sin is also called iniquity in the Bible which is close in meaning to inequality. The golden rule is about trying to keep what we do to others equal to what we would want done to us. Separate acts of inequality are said to come from a person with iniquity or sin in their heart.

Most atheists probably do "sin" if they miss the marks or targets they set for themselves at times. I know I don't always do what I know is right and have regrets and guilt about some of the things I have done. I assume some atheists could feel this way also. Not living up to what I intended is a punishment within itself apart from any fear of eternal consequences.

But some of the things listed as sins from a religious standpoint, such as not tithing, are not really called sins by the Bible even though some preachers may think or teach that.

There are no rules or laws to be broken within the Christian belief system and we are all supposed to be led by the Spirit within our own hearts about what is right and wrong. The Apostle Paul said "All things are lawful unto me but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful unto me but I will not be brought under the power of any." And in Romans 14 he also said, "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

These are buzz words or cliché for many but that freedom is part of what is meant by the term of Jesus as a "personal Saviour", that He will guide us in these decisions. I know religion hides this freedom sometimes and some believers in God may not trust themelves to be able to honestly decide what is sin and want outside guidelines from preachers or priests. But according to the New Testament, Christians are individually responsible, the same as every one else, for determining what is acceptable and what is a "sin" to them.

[Brutha]

As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters and the rest is just semantics or socio-linguistics (another really fun subject ).

That like saying that the belief in God is just semantics.

Sin is a concept where actions are either sins or aren't. There is nothing in between. Humans can make mistakes in judging whether something is a sin but it's still a objective criteria.

[Matthew Shea]

There are two basic types of moral structures: absolute and relative. Absolute morality is handed down by a supreme being, like the 10 Commandments. Relative morality derives from a fixed starting point (Brutha mentioned a few relative moral codes in his post above). In other words, a moral code, for example, might be based on respect for life or love for others or love for self or possibly many other things. All the morals in that code then become relative to that starting point.

For most people, the type of moral code you follow depends on whether or not you believe in a supreme being. The thing about sin, and I'm using the term the way most people, in my experience, think of it, is that it requires a deity that will be offended if you stray from the rules that deity has given to his people. So a proper atheist doesn't worry about "sinning", per se, in the sense of offending God, but we all have a conscience and most people, regardless of belief, will try to stick to it. Since we all fail from time to time, everyone "sins", in the strictly utilitarian sense of the word.

[pianoperformer]

Morality to me is subjective, and also depends on the cultural context. In some cultures, certain things are very wrong, while in others no one would give a second thought to it. Our conscience I think largely comes from how we were raised. Of course, that's a debatable point: whether children are born with a sense of morality, or whether it is instilled in them from their parents. It might be a little bit of both, but I tend to think mostly the latter.

In general, morality is what works in that culture. It is what is best at keeping peace between people, and helping society to function better. If everyone lies, then no one can trust anyone else, and so nothing can be accomplished. No one is happy because they have to be paranoid. Therefore, lying is considered wrong.

Is anyone going to be punished if they lie? of course not, at least not in a religious or spiritual sense. They might feel bad, because they were taught it was wrong, but that's about it. Also if they make a habbit of it, they might be shunned socially.

Sin doesn't really play a role in any of this, because it is generally a religious concept that has no context outside of religion. But morality in an Atheist vs. a Christian, for example, rarely changes where it really matters. This is probably because one role of religion is to instill those morals even more deeply, because people fear for their eternal lives, so usually it agrees in large part with the cultural norms. It's just often a more effective way to get across the same idea: that certain things if practiced regularly don't serve at all for one's standing in society, and often serve to harm it. Whether such principles are followed out of fear, or just because it seems to be the best thing to do, is of no consequence.