Who are the Christians?

[kf4qhk]

I'm new here, which, by the way, thank you for allowing me into your forum. Under "Introductions," you'll find a mini-bio.

Anyway, I am a born again Christian, with strong Charismatic tendencies. I am curious to see what other Christians we have here. I'd like to start a Christian self-development accountability group.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[Akashic_Librarian]

Hey nice to meet you. Just a word of warning; Some people here are less than tolerant of Christians (or any strong dogmatic tendancies) Most people here generally see it as a low level of consciousness (Steve is one of these) and well...

Good luck.

[NightSpirit]

Hi,

I am also a Christian, from a Charismatic background. I think it's a different kind of faith than most of the people around here have experienced. My faith really is based more on what God has done in my life and the miracles I have seen than it is on pure faith or belief in words on a page.

That being said, I still have to have faith, the answers to my prayers are not always instantaneous. Sometimes I'm like the disciples that were in the storm and Jesus was asleep on the boat and I get scared and feel like I have to wake God up or that He doesn't care what's happening to me.

I was talking to a friend last night about all the miracles in the New Testament, of Jesus casting demons into the pigs and then walking through the crowd that couldn't touch Him when they wanted to throw Him off the cliff, of all the people raised from the dead by Jesus, Paul and those sent out at Matt 10:8, walking on water and through walls and breaking a few loaves and fishes to feed thousands with baskets left over, turning water into wine...you know, all that...and then people say He was a good man or we can be better by just doing as He said? Or that everything else that was reported about Him in the Bible is true except His words that there will be a final judgment? Huh.

I don't understand that. Either He was God's son or He was a fake and a liar. If His resurrection from the dead and ascension was a lie or a fairy tale of men then why is that we should we forgive our neighbors or do unto others as we would have them do unto us, considered true?

People around here are still thinking they can prove God exist or that to be God, He must first be understood by their puny human minds, when nothing else about this world or creation has been proven or seen by most people.

A God that I can reason out or that bows to me? I'm still trying to figure out what electricity was created from and why we didn't evolve to fly and swim underwater or have eyes in the back of our heads or venom in our teeth if we are truly the highest product of evolution only. How much longer is it going to take for rabbits to grow their own gardens or dogs to raise rabbits for food? Animals had as long as we did to figure these things out.

Birds are born knowing what to eat and how to gather and build nests and when to fly south out of what...reason or brainpower? Why have they stopped there and just not come inside and built a fire? Does anyone understand that? No, we study it and accept it. But then our search and longing for God is not the way He made us but a weakness from the fear of death or societal chaos?

We understands elements and atoms and the different combinations and speeds, that everything is constantly moving but we still don't know what all that is made of at the most microscopic level. And even if we did see it, we still didn't create it. Man has never created anything out of nothing, only manipulated what was already here. And then to say God doesn't exist because we as pitiful men, don't have "proof?" Or that God was the first cause and everything else was random, that we evolved to be better than God because we care about each other and He doesn't care? Weird.

I first had faith and then I received proof and that happens over and over in my life. "Those that come to God must believe that He is and that He is the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him", that He exists and that He cares. Why is that so difficult for smart people? Because they are smarter than God, if He exists at all?

Okay that's me. And yes, I need some more accountability in my life but I'm not sure it will fly around here because our belief system has the condition of belief and humility to God and that, logically speaking, must be false according to the smart people belief system.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Either He was God's son or He was a fake and a liar. If His resurrection from the dead and ascension was a lie or a fairy tale of men then why is that we should we forgive our neighbors or do unto others as we would have them do unto us, considered true?

This is derived from a talk given by Bill Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ back in, I believe, the early 1970's. The heady days of Explo '72 and such. You know, the Christian Woodstock where it was predicted that world salvation was just around the corner. Kind of entertaining, viewed from WAY around the corner. My late wife attended Explo '72 and got all fired up and then went home to begin her agonizing 35 year downward health spiral and ended up dying without ever having witnessed the Second Coming.

But I digress. Bright's argument has been a touchstone of popular Christian apologetics ever since. Something closer to the original wording is, "If Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, He could not be merely a 'great moral teacher'. Either He was what He claimed or He was a liar or a madman on a level with someone who claims to be a poached egg."

This is provocative and used to sway me, but I eventually realized that the same argument could be applied to me if I claimed to be the Son of God. Especially twenty centuries poshumously when the facts of my life are muddled and evidence of my peccadilloes may have been suppressed.

All this argument really did was play on the guilt feelings of people who already assumed at some level that there really is a god and Jesus was probably god. It forced them off their apathetic touches and got them off the fence. Great for firing up the "almost persuaded" but this is not a compelling argument for someone with honest doubt or rational skepticism.

Just in case you think it is ;-)

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

People around here are still thinking they can prove God exist or that to be God, He must first be understood by their puny human minds, when nothing else about this world or creation has been proven or seen by most people.

I don't think it's asking too much for God to satisfy the minds he created us with and presumably expects us to use. There is nothing inherently evil about the intellect. Why must we always check it at the door when the topic turns to god? There are a lot of Christian intellectuals who feel the same way, even if I can't agree with all of their reasoning. CS Lewis was an excellent example.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

A God that I can reason out or that bows to me?

I don't see any requirement for god to be incomprehensible in order for him to be god. He certainly can CHOOSE to be incomprehensible, and appears to have done so. But it hardly seems necessary.

As for a god who bows to us, I have to agree that is no god at all, not in the sense you mean it. It's an attempt to redefine god as our higher self or mankind's collective consciousness, or things along those lines. This is suspiciously convenient. Although I don't reject it out of hand either.

It's appealing to have a beneficent, loving god who watches over us. Alas, that is also suspiciously convenient, not to mention, contrary to much if not most of human experience.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

I'm still trying to figure out what electricity was created from and why ... [etc] But then our search and longing for God is not the way He made us but a weakness from the fear of death or societal chaos?

I do not buy that the ubiquity of people's desire for god (a ubiquity that is, by the way, becoming less so in the past 150 years or so) is evidence for god. It's evidence for people's need to make sense of life (that pesky intellect again) and evidence for a shared objective reality that people tend to make similar conclusions from, have similar disappointments and hurts and triumphs, etc. I think your own desire to be comforted by god has persuaded you that simply because you participate in a widely shared illusion, that it must be true.

A billion people saying something is so doesn't make it so. It might give us pause to consider what they are saying, but it hardly constitutes proof.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Man has never created anything out of nothing, only manipulated what was already here. And then to say God doesn't exist because we as pitiful men, don't have "proof?" Or that God was the first cause and everything else was random, that we evolved to be better than God because we care about each other and He doesn't care? Weird.

This adds heat but not light to the discussion. As a Christian you should know better than to denigrate people who have an honest disagreement with you as "weird". You are not having a private conversation with one of your homies here. We can all read it. And contrary to popular misconception, attempted shaming is not an effective technique of persuasion.

As you know from other discussions we've had, I am not one of those who is willing to say that god doesn't exist. I have been forced to re-evaluate my concept of god and the claims of the church and have pretty much walked away from it all and felt I had to do so to preserve my own sanity. However, I can certainly understand people seeing no point in god. Most of us, if we're honest about it, lead lives regardless of our beliefs that are no different than you'd expect them to be if god weren't in the picture.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

I first had faith and then I received proof and that happens over and over in my life. "Those that come to God must believe that He is and that He is the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him", that He exists and that He cares. Why is that so difficult for smart people? Because they are smarter than God, if He exists at all?

It's difficult because not everyone receives satisfactory proof, as you say you have. You cannot generalize from your experience to mine or anyone else's. You cannot say that because you have your inner witness or signs or whatever that anyone who does not is just arrogant or blocking for some other reason.

Another source of difficulty is that truth you're probably not willing to receive, which is that some of us have in fact believed that "He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him". We've sought him, and found little evidence for his existence and evidence that he actually doesn't care. This is difficult for smart and dumb people alike.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Okay that's me. And yes, I need some more accountability in my life but I'm not sure it will fly around here because our belief system has the condition of belief and humility to God and that, logically speaking, must be false according to the smart people belief system.

Do not create a false dichotomy here. I know there are some who are arrogant here, regarding their intellect (real or imagined). But there are also people of good conscience here who have honest questions or problems with your particular version of belief in god. Do you disrespect them so much you are just going to blow them off and dismiss them all as stiff-necked evildoers?

You have an intellect too. You took an initial leap of faith and it was rewarded, apparently, by "proofs". Were you wrong to need those proofs? I don't think so. And I'm genuinely happy for you that you got them. It is not so for all of us.

I took an initial and very credible leap of faith too, and it has not only not been rewarded with proofs but it has been discouraged with huge life events that I have an understandable tendency to interpret as careless kicks in the groin for no good reason. I am slowly figuring out what actually happened and what actually needs to be done about it and let me tell you, it has very little to do with standard Christian dogma, which in fact, I blame for most of the suffering I've experienced in life.

So ease up. You don't have it nearly as sewed up as you'd like to think.

Best,

--Bob

[september]

kf, welcome!

Here is the article Akashic was referring to when mentioning Steve's aversion to organized religion. You should know in advance that many on the forums take Steve as a little bit of gospel too. Just usually only on the subjects they already agree with Steve on. :O

Good luck with your self-development project!

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by september

kf, welcome!

Here is the article Akashic was referring to when mentioning Steve's aversion to organized religion.

Wow. That sure is cold. Talk about the other extreme. But then again, I've never met a "fallen away" Catholic who was very objective about the experience.

I don't know why Steve feels it's necessary to make fun of believing stories about people being raised from the dead. It's no more nutty to believe in people being raised from the dead than it is to believe in talking to dead people or believing that your thoughts create your reality. Steve should not take his own stories so seriously.

In fairness I must concede that Steve's portrayal is actually not too far off base as regards organized religious officialdom. But the powers that be have hijacked some often valid core truths. That has always been the story of mankind: someone has an intuitive insight and then politics and bureaucracy sprout up around it and ossify it. Don't think it isn't happening as we speak to the organizations and belief systems espoused by Mr. Pavlina.

Within religion there are truly good people quietly exerting their influence and they are often the actual "power" behind local churches. I know of one small-town congregation that has had a series of useless, nitwit ministers assigned to them over the past two decades but when someone really needs counsel, love, or comfort, members of that church know who they really need to go to. An elderly couple with no salary and no title are the actual heartbeat of that church. In the past year alone this couple spearheaded efforts to build handicapped access ramps for countless homes, fought a difficult but successful battle for disability benefits for a sick woman, fixed dozens of lawn mowers and garden tractors as a gift of love to the community, and been powerfully present for dozens of bereaved people, including this unchurched sinner.

I think that it's far more complicated and nuanced than a simple "us vs them" situation. Conscious people exist all over, inside and outside the church. Sometimes they actually use the rotting corpse of the church to raise the consciousness level of others. I've seen it.

This isn't an argument in favor of organized religion by any means. I wouldn't give that church credit for what I've witnessed this couple do. I give the couple credit and I think they are quite enlightened (no thanks to the church, and they get no thanks from the church, either).

This couple is simply blooming where they are planted. They are simple people, and their interior thought life is laced through with church teachings, but love is love no matter who shows it. They don't take the teachings or themselves seriously. They just do what needs doing. I'll take someone with real love and empathy over someone with "correct", "intelligent" ideas any day.

--Bob

[Christian223]

Hi and welcome, Im a Bible reading Christian and i follow JesusChrist our only saviour.

Jesus bless you.

[kf4qhk]

I love the responses, that's for sure, and some interesting opinions. I started reading that article, and honestly, I could not make it through.

So, for the Christians on this forum, I'd like to know a bit about you. Again, allow me to put a plug in for my personal mini-bio under the "Introductions" thread. I'd also like to know a bit about why you are here, how you have already improved, and how you hope to improve.

I'd also like to know of your goals, both the ones that you think you will achieve, and the unattainable goals.

Enjoying this fellowship,

Jeremy

[september]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Don't think it isn't happening as we speak to the organizations and belief systems espoused by Mr. Pavlina.

Yes yes yes yes yes. Very perceptive, and something not enough posters here realize.

Originally Posted by kf4qhk

I love the responses, that's for sure, and some interesting opinions. I started reading that article, and honestly, I could not make it through.

I don't blame you at all. Steve has some great stuff, but alas, this article does not stand up to it. Some of the greatest people I've known have been religious people who have a faith and a church and a religion -- it's the doxastic versus intellectual rigor that counts, I think.

And now I'll get out of your thread, as I am not Christian.

[kf4qhk]

Originally Posted by september

Yes yes yes yes yes. Very perceptive, and something not enough posters here realize.



I don't blame you at all. Steve has some great stuff, but alas, this article does not stand up to it. Some of the greatest people I've known have been religious people who have a faith and a church and a religion -- it's the doxastic versus intellectual rigor that counts, I think.

And now I'll get out of your thread, as I am not Christian.

Oh, you're welcome here, anytime. Who knows? Maybe you'll find/see something that you like. I pray that God showers you with some manifestations of His goodness!

[september]

Originally Posted by kf4qhk

Oh, you're welcome here, anytime. Who knows? Maybe you'll find/see something that you like. I pray that God showers you with some manifestations of His goodness!

Thanks! I hope that your manifestation of God sends goodness your way too.

I kid, I kid.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

As a Christian you should know better than to denigrate people who have an honest disagreement with you as "weird". You are not having a private conversation with one of your homies here. We can all read it. And contrary to popular misconception, attempted shaming is not an effective technique of persuasion.

You're right. I was out of line and thanks for pointing it out in such a nice way. I think I had just read something that irritated me and I guess I was reacting too quickly to it. I need to learn not to post as a gut reaction.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I know there are some who are arrogant here, regarding their intellect (real or imagined). But there are also people of good conscience here who have honest questions or problems with your particular version of belief in god. Do you disrespect them so much you are just going to blow them off and dismiss them all as stiff-necked evildoers?

I don't think I blew anyone off or think of them as evil doers, just burnt out with reading too much, I guess. There are some very intelligent people here, including you.

But to be honest, when it comes to Christians, I have not found many that don't think they know all about what I am and what I believe in a stereotypical way. My honest thoughts, why I believe what I do and the conclusions I have reached, are usually blown of by you, and others as originating from someone else or as being out of some kind of handbook for Christians to use on non-Christians.

I don't even know who Bill Bright is. If it happens that he and I both "can't wrap out mind around", (to use your terminology, instead of calling it weird) the way some people try to pick out truth from a book they think is full of lies, then that he and I agree denigrates what I think to the level of being merely propaganda and no effort is made to help me understand.

If I had such an opinion of a book, I would use it in the fireplace, not try to prove hell doesn't exist from it and throw out all the references to the final judgment as lies, as was an actual conversation I had with someone here. I need to expand my vocabulary for sure. But I see the logic of that process as weird or unfathomable to me.

As do I see proposing that God created our physical reality, created us in part, but was "hands off" concerning the realities of our emotional and thought processes. Even outside a Biblical reference, I think to believe that a person has to step over everything else that is seen in creation, of like creating like, seeds bearing seeds, children in the image of their parents, etc. I can understand not believing in a God at all better than I can understand believing in a God that is different from what He created, just from what I see as the logical possibilities.

There is nothing new under the sun so if some other prominent Christian has said that too or you are bored with the argument because you have heard it before, it still happens to be what I actually think and not from a Sunday school bulletin or something.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

It's difficult because not everyone receives satisfactory proof, as you say you have. You cannot generalize from your experience to mine or anyone else's. You cannot say that because you have your inner witness or signs or whatever that anyone who does not is just arrogant or blocking for some other reason.

I agree that I may have implied or said that anyone who doesn't recieve proof may be blocking but that doesn't come from a spirit of arrogance or judgment the way it seems to have been recieved. I guess I have not made myself clear and it's a fault of mine to leave out what I think everyone else can see or what is common knowledge.
When I say that you can block God with unbelief, it is from my own experience and I'm not talking about the signs I recieved. And I am not even talking about deliberate or arrogant rebellion.
As in the teaching on this site and why I am drawn here, we know that examining beliefs can free us from being misled by a religion. And we also know that all of us have core beliefs or expectations of reality we hold in our hearts and that removing the false or unexamined ones will make us free.
From my experience, I found that I also held core beliefs about God and still do and some of those beliefs serve to limit not only me but to also limit my experience with God. I love to talk to you from the Bible because you know it. This teaching ties directly back to what was said about Jesus, that He could not do many works in a certain town because of their unbelief. Not that He didn't but that He COULDN'T. Knowing that I can block good things from my life and also block God and not be aware of it, examining what I believe about God and why I believe it and then being willing to let go of the ones that seem false to me, is as freeing in a realtionship with God as it is in any area of personal development. And it is what He said (or the organization trying to fool us said )2000 years ago.
You know all this and you frequently point it out to others when they seem to think they are free of a belief system in their opinions. I think that is why sometimes it's good to scrap everything we believe and start over and as a Christian, I'm not afraid to do that. Most of the HARDCORE Christians that I know are the ones who have left the church and spent years believing nothing as atheists, as I have done, not on purpose but because the house that was built, within religion, had some flaws in it and fell as Jesus said it would.
As you know, around here, it seems that everything is open to be believed except the Bible and Jesus as the Son of God. I'm am not saying anyone should believe that because I say it. I am saying that unless someone is open to the possibility that He at least could be, even if He is God, He can't come in. This is the system He created or that we acknowledge exists, defined as the authority to choose and change our core beliefs and the system of ask and recieve that everyone quotes from the Bible on these threads.
I do think you have walls built up against God to protect you from the pain and just to simplify your mind and thoughts in the face of such unexplainable events and sometimes we need that. I can't say if another person's heart is open and pure or whether they have God-limiting or self-limiting core beliefs. I can only say from my own experience that removing those changes what actually happens.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Another source of difficulty is that truth you're probably not willing to receive, which is that some of us have in fact believed that "He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him". We've sought him, and found little evidence for his existence and evidence that he actually doesn't care.
....I think your own desire to be comforted by god has persuaded you that simply because you participate in a widely shared illusion, that it must be true..
.....I took an initial and very credible leap of faith too, and it has not only not been rewarded with proofs but it has been discouraged with huge life events that I have an understandable tendency to interpret as careless kicks in the groin for no good reason.

I am going to get a little personal here and it's a little long not to bore anyone but to try and remove some of the attitude or assumptions. I know you seem to think I am where you were and now you are free when it's really more like, I was where you were and where you are now and now I'm back here as a Christian.
I know you say you have never felt any communication from God. I do not doubt that in your time in the church, you were sincere and did as the preacher and the Bible said. I cannot doubt that anymore that I can doubt myself, when I, as a teenager and young adult, did the same, going to the altar of guilt, giving myself to Jesus because He "died" for me, getting baptized and studying and especially witnessing and tithing.
And all that failed me or I failed it and walked away from it for years and became an atheist, arguing the issues (the letter) with Christians and having fun doing it. Or at times I would make up my own God as I understood Him and wanted Him to be and even called Him Jesus sometimes. Went on that way for about 10 years, so I am not the born and bred product of doctrine that is the stereotypical (and incorrect) opinion of Christians here.
I have been there, in religion, where most of my experiences with God were as either sappy sentimentalism or the result of emotional terrorism with my soul as hostage. I finally gave up and said to myself, "Keep it. Christ died for me. Who asked Him to? What's the difference? A few hours on a cross for Him verses 75 or 80 years on a cross for me? No thanks." Those kind of guilting pleas to be saved, end time and hell movies and the like, still make my skin crawl but I am more merciful now and respect their efforts at doing what they truly believe.
I was drawn to look at the Bible again because I had experienced a miracle in my family. We were on a death watch for my step dad, also named Bob, who had been in intensive care for weeks, and the doctors had given us no hope and called his family in. A Christian relative, the same one I had stayed up all night debating, had interrupted our death watch with the news that God stopped Him while driving and told him my step dad would not die but recover. He was cursed out for daring to speak for God and for giving people false hope that were trying to prepare themselves for death but mostly he was just ignored as a fanatic.
But I didn't argue this time and just hoped it really was true. Then my step dad suddenly came out of the coma, asked that the respirator be removed and the doctor was almost jumping for joy. No one said anything about God except the doctor who wouldn't take credit for what happened. People come out of comas all the time and doctors make mistakes but I was just grateful that my step dad who was near death, was back with us. It was enough to turn me back to the Bible to see why this Christian man said He could hear God.
Then I had an experience with God. I don't know why this didn't happen to me before when I was in church. It wasn't for my lack of desire for God or from lack of trying back then. And it didn't come when it did from a new "re-dedication" of my life to Christ. I was the same then as I have ever been; the only thing being different this time was that I was looking for God on my own without a preacher or church to teach me. I thought "I'm smart, always placed in the top 3 percent on national tests, made all A's whether I went to school or not, so if anyone could understand the Bible and research the origins and influences and figure out the truth, I can too".
Gospels were no big deal, nice words in red, on to Acts 2. This experience, some people say it still happens, some say it was a one time thing just for them, some say it happens to everyone at the prayer of repentance. I couldn't tell and the verses in the Bible could be viewed to go either way. I had reached the end of my reasoning ability. And that was the point where I lose most people and where I think most people miss God, in not believing something supernatural with God can happen.
I had never heard from God but the other man said he had so I asked God Himself to teach me on this thing I couldn't reason out with logic. I asked Him to find a way to let me know if I already had that and if not to give me all that I was supposed to have and I went on reading and living my life.
A few weeks later, I went to a church service, not for the service but to tell the preacher off for promising to call my aunt, who was dying of cancer, and not doing it. I don't even know what he preached; my mind was more on what he didn't do. At the end, he asked everyone to come to the altar and pray, awkward for me since I was out of those circles for so long. But I did go forward because my aunt was sick, to pray alone at the front of the church for her.
I was all alone, didn't know anyone at the church, it wasn't my aunt's church, just someone she trusted to pray for her cancer. And there in the middle of those strangers, while I was praying silently for my aunt, it happened.

[NightSpirit]

Cont....
For a few minutes there, time stopped and it was just God. I can't say it was me and God because I lost all sense of being seperate from Him and this feeling of love and joy rolled into me like a train or an avalanche. My lips were burning and my throat wouldn't make words and for a second I thought I was having a stroke and was about to leave my body and die. Then I knew... that "this was that, that was spoken of by the prophet Joel, and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh"
The laughter came up out of me from the joy as I had never laughed before. Not like at a joke or at someone or because of something but laughing out loud, just because I was happy. I forgot all about telling the preacher off and just rushed over and hugged him before I left... (there had been a family funeral out of town that he had to attend).
And then on my way home, the other tongues part of it came. There was just a knowing, a sense of Jesus laughing with me and saying "Now you know" over and over again. I laughed for three days, went to bed laughing, woke up laughing, tried to keep from laughing at work and almost got sent for a drug test. Some other Christians knew what it was because they had seen it before but I never had. Just couldn't wait to get home so I could go to my room and pray. The love and the peace and the acceptance I felt were so similar to the near death experiences some describe that I believe they are seeing Jesus also.

I can't do this for anyone else or convince anyone that it happened or what it felt like anymore than I can make someone experience anything else I feel. But I hope someone would understand why my belief in the Bible is from so much more than blind faith, why "Christ in us, the hope of glory.' and "out of their belly shall flow rivers of living water" or "joy unspeakable and full of glory" or Luke 11:13 are not just words on a paper for me anymore.
If laughing and babbling was all there was to it, I might agree that I lost my mind or I made up an experience to comfort me about the existence of God. The experience did comfort me when everything that happened was the same as described in the Bible. But that experience, almost 20 years ago now, was only the beginning.
I could go on and on about the many more miracles I've seen and the gifts of the Spirit and the times God spoke to me or sent me to people who didn't know they were dying or that had been planning their own suicide, unknown to me. I haven't always done what He said and I have made some mistakes and there have been long periods of time that I put other stuff before hearing from God, but there is no way I can ever say that the God I know is not the same one of the Bible.
This one miracle story I am hesitant to share because of your experiences with sickness and death. I am sorry your wife suffered and died and some of my family members have also and I don’t understand everything. I just know that sometimes He does intervene.
Years ago, when my husband and I were praying about a job situation, God interrupted that prayer and told me he had undiagnosed cancer in his chest despite just having been checked out in the hospital a few weeks earlier and being cleared to go back to work that same day.
That they found the cancer on the first appointment when he tried another doctor didn't feel like the blessing it was at the time. When they took out the cancer before it spread and we found out the survival rate was very poor if it had been allowed to spread and no treatment is effective against it, then we started to feel more blessed.
Maybe we were of the lower consciousness religious idiots but we didn't waste a lot of time questioning why God allowed him to get cancer, or why he didn't allow the first doctor to find it or why we and everybody else doesn't hear from God all the time or even asking why we had financial problems because he was sick. We just thanked God and I still do...that He had warned us and spared him the suffering of a painful death and put him back on his feet.
Does it make me sad or mad at God that my mom died 10 years after this of a similar kind of cancer? My mom was one of the ones cursing the man that God had sent to tell her husband wouldn't die and he didn't...so she had a different kind of faith and maybe some blocks of her own. She believed in God but also that God is going to do whatever He wants and prayers are of no use. She didn't want any advice or prayers and wasn't giving any permission for Christians to give her a message from God, so none came.
She died. My then ex-husband, who was 24 years older than me, also died the year before she did, not of any cancer but of COPD, after 9 years of good health. They both went to the same heaven, one in pain, one peacefully. Either way, to me God is still God and is still good.
This has been too long but there is more. I already told about the miracle money for my car repair coming. Maybe if anyone wants to know I'll talk about the murder plot that was stopped or the people who died in peace after God sent me to them by warning me in parayer.
There's just no lack of proof with God in my experience. I am not special and Christians at my church and all over know the same Jesus and I can tell when they talk about it.
If someone is not blocking Him with their beliefs or limitations on what they will allow Him to do and honestly asks and doesn't get an answer, I don't know. It could be an act of mercy because as the Bible says, to whom much is given, much is required. And some people wouldn't want to hear His voice because of their beliefs that they may offend Him or that He only wants to talk to them about that "thing", whatever it is, that they are doing, which I think I could help someone unblock also and maybe they could help me since I'm still not perfect. Only God knows all the reasons and what's in a person's heart. Or it could be maybe that it's just not the right time yet.
Honest questions from a desire to know, I think God can handle. But some of what goes on here on these threads, not you Bob, comes quite close to tempting God or calling God evil or ridiculing the sincere way people try to serve Him. To me, that is sad and doesn't seem to be smart.

[SonoranBob]

Thank you for taking the time to share all your experiences. I have to admit the possibility of such things, especially when they come after you are pretty much outside the reach of the church's dogma and demands and illusions, and when they come more or less unbidden / unexpected, and when the ultimate outcome is positive for you and for others.

I can't say that I've ever sought or seen the point in ecstatic experiences; it's not really what I'm looking for. As an intellectual, it's possible that I fear it. Hell, I'll admit, I'd be humiliated. The closest I ever came to something like that was when I experimentally submitted to a cranio-sacral therapy which left me manic for a couple of days and then rubber-banded me into a black funk. The funk more than made up for the relaxed giddiness that preceded it. I don't ever want to go THERE again. The D.O. that did the work had no particular explanation other than that sometimes there are strange responses as various body tensions are released. I've never gotten up the courage to try it again. It seems like he was messing with things he didn't understand. Cranio-sacral therapy, though offered in a distinctly areligious clinical context, is very similar to the laying on of hands. It is directed intention for healing.

I've noted that on occasion some random person has accurate intuitive insight into something and that good comes of it ... as was the case with your deathbed rally story. I am not at all jealous or resentful that this was not my wife's experience. Whatever works. Any port in a storm. I also however am not impressed that the vessel for this insight happened to be a charismatic Christian. The universe doesn't appear to be fussy or particularly organized about who gets such insights when. Or about who gets needed grace and who goes lacking. I don't take such graces as endorsement of the individual or his/her belief system.

As for your being warned about your husband's cancer ... lucky you. It happens. And it doesn't. I am kind of with your mother on this ... god does what he wants and doesn't seem to respond to our needs, requests, hopes, dreams or aspirations in a way that is undeniably different from random chance, so what's the point? At some point you just get tired of the struggle -- the hoping against hope, the persevering, the being patient, the suffering, and you just accept that your are S.O.L. and let it be what it is. I very much understand your mother. She was no longer interested in playing that game. I would respond exactly the same, given her situation.

I'm glad your experience has been different. If you ever figure out why, do let me know.

Part of my problem is that if I believe in a benign, loving, personal god I would have to be enraged about what happened to my wife. An impersonal force, i can cope with and keep my serenity about it.

You also mentioned that perhaps lack of revelation is a mercy because it's a sort of "be careful what you ask, you might get it" situation. That me be quite true. I am not sure I even want to understand WTF is going on or receive any special insight anymore. It's past time for it anyway. I no longer want other people's drama or be in positions where I'm supposed to pull a rabbit out of a hat to try to help or comfort them or provide them with the certitude they crave. I don't want that kind of responsibility. I don't want to watch any more writhing and screaming and dying. I've had way too much of it already and I really like not having it ;-)

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Honest questions from a desire to know, I think God can handle.

Indeed ... even I can handle those, so if god can't, he's not god.

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

But some of what goes on here on these threads, not you Bob, comes quite close to tempting God or calling God evil or ridiculing the sincere way people try to serve Him. To me, that is sad and doesn't seem to be smart.

In my experience god doesn't get riled any more reliably than he answers prayer. Some of these people secretly want to get a rise out of god -- ANYTHING. Pretty much the same way kids act out to get ANY kind of attention they can.

You also have to remember that ego enters into it too. The need to mock and rail comes from the love of drama, the desire to "get back" at god or the church for real or imagined disappointments, or to find a focus for some sort of "us vs them" self-aggrandizement.

I suppose that I have as much of a right as anyone to want to attack the church and Make Them Pay (tm) for all the heartache they caused me, but I just can't. I was on the inside too long, and I know that there are a lot of people there who mean well and just don't know any better, and more than you'd think who mean well and do well despite their muddle-headed beliefs. Sometimes better than "enlightened" people with "open" minds.

Best,

--Bob

[NightSpirit]

I don't blame you for the way you feel and as I have said before, I've been there even after this experience. I've never gotten to the point that I deny God and the Bible but I have been mad at Him, even told Him off or ignored Him since then. Sometimes the miracles stopped when I was doing other things but that may have been because I believed they would, not because God withheld anything from me. I'm still working on purifing my heart and beliefs.

It has not all been glory to glory, believe me...a daughter on the streets and on crack, divorce as a Christian even when you think you did eveything you were supposed to do, my own health problems and financial set-backs. But little miracles still came during all that and sometimes big ones, like my daughter hearing God herself and is now being a good wife and mother.

I did still always feel He was there and would never leave me, as I am sure your wife did also from what you say. I am at a point now that I would rather be with Him than without Him but, well, you know, He who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall or pride goes before a fall, so I know it can happen.

It's just that circumstances and what happens in life are not always the best indication of what God is doing. John the Baptist had doubts and was beheaded, even after he heard God's own voice from the sky. So when people say God didn't do as the Bible says or the Bible is not true because of evil, I just don't see the Bible saying bad things won't happen.

The question that a loving powerful God would be expected to do more I do understand, because I have asked Him that myself. Most of my answers are about other people's choices and ignoring God, like my daughter was and as I have done myself.

In your wife's situation, I don't know. You have already rejected my idea that,possibly, on some spiritual level, not conscious level, that God told her and she agreed to the plan of how He was going to use her and an event that was meant for evil for a higher spiritual good, as another witness to others that her faith in God was real and worth more than anything of this world. She (and others in the same situations) are miles ahead and more successful in Christ than us all, that she kept the faith and didn't curse God no matter what happened to her body and without all the signs and miracles I have seen. If the Bible is true, she certainly deserves more praise and rewards than I would." Blessed are those that have not seen and yet believe" in Jesus and in miracles even when they don't get one. Gives me joy just thinking about someone being able to do that and about the promise that the suffering of this world is not worthy to be compared to the glory.

But I wasn't in the trenches with her as you were and I can also understand why me saying that might seem to you like trying to make chicken salad from chicken poop. You know I don't think it's wrong to question everything; we are made that way as you said. Just please leave a little crack open for the possibility that Jesus might be the one. Or maybe consider just worshiping and loving the truth, because if you're doing that, to me, it leads to the same end as worshiping Him, if He is the truth like He said.

I've enjoyed remembering some of the good things I have seen but I has better get up and get some things done now. This is internet crack.

[Gukkor]

I'm a Christian, but I'm pretty unorthodox on many points of doctrine, such that I suppose many more conservative Christians would consider me a heretic. For one, I'm a universalist. That is, I believe that everyone will eventually find God, that there is no eternal Hell, nor total annihilation in anyone's future.

Though I'll consent to being labelled a monotheist for simplicity's sake, I consider that to only be partially accurate. I'm actually more of a panentheist. I believe everything that exists is both a creation of God and a part of God. God is in every part of the universe, but also extends infinitely beyond it. This puts me squarely inbetween monotheism (God is above all) and pantheism (God is all). I see the relationship between God and the universe as something like the parts of a tree; God is the roots and trunk of the tree, while the universe is the branches, leaves, and fruit. They are both one and separate, depending on perspective. Unlike many people with similar views, I do not think that the perspective of all things being one is any better or more real than the perspective of them being many different things.

While I will gladly discuss my religious beliefs with anyone who asks about them, I do not actively proselytize. I see the command to spread the Good News as being more a matter of action than words, of demonstrating Christ-like virtues in everyday life, rather than simply telling people what to think.

I think the debate over evolution is the most ridiculous waste of time I've ever seen enter the public sphere. That's all I have to say about that.

I do not associate with any particular denomination, but that is my personal choice. I do not think there's anything wrong with denominations as long as they aren't at each other's throats.

While I resonate with Christianity most deeply, I do not think of it as the "one true religion." As I see it, every religion has some things right and other things wrong, and since we don't have access to the absolute truth of things at the moment, it is best to simply keep sharing our ideas while maintaining respect for and tolerance of each other.

I have my views on the afterlife, but ultimately I don't see it as terribly relevant right now. The afterlife will work itself out when the time is right. For now, what is truly important is how we live this life.

I am a firm believer in free will. Getting into the details of that issue, though, would make this post even longer than it already is, so I'll leave it at that.

[clair08]

Hi, I'm a Christian. I believe that there is one God and that the Bible is true. But the one thing I don't like is that church has sort of become like modern day pharisees. I feels that it focus to much on following rules and not the relationship with God. Now it seems like everybody wants to pretend that they're perfect and turn their noses up at people who don't know Christ. I think church should be a safe haven for people who don't know Christ and Christians should remember that they were once lost to.

[kf4qhk]

Originally Posted by clair08

Hi, I'm a Christian. I believe that there is one God and that the Bible is true. But the one thing I don't like is that church has sort of become like modern day pharisees. I feels that it focus to much on following rules and not the relationship with God. Now it seems like everybody wants to pretend that they're perfect and turn their noses up at people who don't know Christ. I think church should be a safe haven for people who don't know Christ and Christians should remember that they were once lost to.

I like what you have to say.

So what are you doing, as far as business/life/etc?

[Old Soul]

I think a christian is someone who operates from their authentic self... they are motivated Christ followers, ( not church go'ers) although they frequent churches now and then..... they are driven by strong motivation to help others make a better world by being authentic.... they do not argue about God , they recognise Jesus as an accendended master..... they too are leveling up to go out and act as Christ did

[muzzy]

Gukkor, I'm with you. I'm a moderate Christian, don't talk about it, just do what is right for the earth. Like to think I walk with Jesus. No attachments to organised religion anymore, too corrupt. Turned to nature as my cathedral of worship.

[Nasir]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Hey nice to meet you. Just a word of warning; Some people here are less than tolerant of Christians (or any strong dogmatic tendancies) Most people here generally see it as a low level of consciousness (Steve is one of these) and well...

Good luck.

I find it interesting that Steve chose Jesus as his "ultimate role model."

Source: Ask Steve - What Religion Are You?

[Brutha]

Steve should not take his own stories so seriously.

Why do you think that he takes his own stories seriously? Especially that article doesn't look very seriously to me.

I don't think that Christians hav any lower or higher level of consciousness than other people.
Whether you have a high level of consciousness is not about which religion you have. It's about your personal growth.

[Barcs]

I'm not a Christian, but I was borned as raised as one in the Catholic church. It left me with a sense of unfulfillment, so I left and started reading into other religions and ideas. I've learned a good amount since then, and greatly respect the teachings of Jesus, however I do not feel that Christianity accurately interprets/enforces these teachings. Most of the dogmas these days, it seems, are actually based on St. Paul as the proper way to worship Jesus, while Jesus' teachings themselves take a back seat. There are countless examples of this, which I'd rather not get into and disrupt your thread. Just wanted to say hello, and let you know that I was once in your shoes. I see most religions as different ways to acheive the same ultimate goals. Good luck in your life. I hope you find that sense of fulfillment, no matter how you do it.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't think that Christians hav any lower or higher level of consciousness than other people.
Whether you have a high level of consciousness is not about which religion you have. It's about your personal growth.

I basically agree with you, but it's a complicated matter to make blanket statements about -- even those I agree with ;-)

I think M. Scott Peck's "levels of spiritual development" apply here. In brief, he uses general categories of (going by memory)

1. Chaotic / primitive
2. Religious / legalistic
3. Rational / scientific
4. Spiritual

People identify with a religion initially because it gives them rules at a time when they need them. Later, they see the holes in their religious dogma and become disillusioned, atheistic, and/or in some way or other reject anything that is not empirical. In the end, if they don't fight it, they become spiritual, but in a very non-dogmatic, humble sort of way. They may still be associated (or may re-associate) with a church at this point, but their practice and attitude will be much more enlightened and loving.

These levels are rough guidelines only -- like the stages of dying or grief (denial, anger, bargaining, acceptance) people don't always pass neatly though them in sequence, may spend more or less time in one stage, may regress or cycle through two or more of them multiple times, may have one foot firmly planted in two adjacent phases, etc. But it is a helpful heuristic for understanding these things.

It is fascinating to me that even the Bible says, "the law (legalistic, dogmatic religion) is a teacher that leads us unto grace (all things are lawful, but not all things are wise)" -- parenthetical notations mine. This certainly describes how people can be in a religious tradition out of either phase 2 or phase 4 motivations.

The point is, you can't judge someone's level of spiritual development solely by whether they are or aren't in a church. But on the other hand I do not hold my breath hoping to find highly advanced and aware people who are also gung-ho religious types, either.

Even I could imagine returning after a fashion to my religious roots with a completely new understanding but see doing so as totally optional and potentially dangerous to my spiritual development. I wouldn't do it lightly, if at all.

--Bob

[javed]

Originally Posted by kf4qhk

I'm new here, which, by the way, thank you for allowing me into your forum. Under "Introductions," you'll find a mini-bio.

Anyway, I am a born again Christian, with strong Charismatic tendencies. I am curious to see what other Christians we have here. I'd like to start a Christian self-development accountability group.

Thanks,

Jeremy