Single Ego or Multiple Ego Universe

[impaul99]

I know this was mentioned in a few threads, but I wanted to open up a discussion on what you guys think about the concept of a Single Ego vs. Multiple Ego Subjective Reality.

Let's not argue the validity of Subjective Reality or IM as that's already being discussed in other threads, but lets just assume that both SR and IM work for the purpose of this thread.

Now, the question is whether this is a Single Player/Ego/Avatar game of life or a Massive Multi-Player/Ego/Avatar game.

If only one ego exists, meaning our own, then that means nothing really needs to be cured except my own ego. For example, if I see an alcoholic, that simply means that *I* (ego) am projecting the image of an alcoholic because some part of MY ego is addicted to something perhaps, or feels guilty about something or whatever, and there really is no point judging the other person since they are not real. Only *I* exist so I must seek to cure whatever I see wrong with the world in myself.

If multiple ego's exist, then it's a different story. If I see an alcoholic, that's really HIS ego that has an addiction problem and maybe I can help him out by getting him checked into AA or something of that sort.

Another way of looking at it is in regards to Steve Pavlina's site. Lets say he figures out a way to get in shape and eat healthy. In a single ego universe, once he cures his addiction to bad food he doesn't really have to worry about anyone else since they dont' exist so he'll slowly create less and less overweight people. Him writing an article about being healthy isn't really important except in as much as it is needed for him to organize his thoughts. But really, nobody is there to read it. The writing of the article will change his projections of the world, but only because he needs that to explain why all of a sudden people are not overweight anymore in his world.

In a multi-ego universe, Steve's ego has problems, and all of our ego's have problems and by Steve figuring out a way to overcome something he can share that info with us via his website and our ego's can hopefully also cure themselves of this problem.

The plot thickens:

In a multi-player universe, we also can't diminish the role of our "true self" or spiritual side which is connected to a superconsciousness which interconnects all of us together, so if Steve's ego overcomes food addiction, does that not also overcome food addiction at the spiritual interconnected level and therefore curing food addiction in all of us just a little bit?

What are the practical implications of this:

The practical implications of either side is that in a single player universe, it is much more useful to cure 1,000 problems of your own ego and just let the world fix itself since it is being created by you. However, in a multi-player universe it might be more useful (for humanity) to cure 1 problem with yourself and to find a way to cure that same problem in a million people, assuming you only have enough time to do one or the other, not both.

What do you guys think?

[wolfgang]

The connection we all have back to oneness doesn't mean "I" am the only ego existing in this physical world. Those other egos have their own agenda or experience but are connected to oneness just as well. If any ego becomes more enlightened or more able to identify with oneness, that spills over somewhat into everyone's experience to some degree. I didn't look up anything, but read once about meditation groups finding a correlation between reduced crime and the number of TM programs (meditators) in cities.

I think the idea of everyone else not being their own illusionary ego self doesn't make sense and sounds like an misplacement of what the oneness is. Just because there's a single oneness to everything doesn't mean a distilled consciousness (ego) that "I" know as me is a single one and only "thing". However, someone like you the reader, is "me" as taken from the point of view of oneness. Being oneness, we are all the same one.

It seems like Steve was on a tangent, to me, about SR and trying to apply the oneness of everything to the fragmented ego world, which sounded like a way to try to flip your ego into thinking about SR, more than how it actually may be. It's more like both egos and the oneness of SR are dependant on each other, not that "I" can be oneness down here in this seperative objective world. But then you can find spiritual writings that say the ego is an illusion, so, with that view, you and me both are in the same boat, equally figments of consciousness.

We, and not just me, are spirit in the material world.

[impaul99]

So, you're obviously of the opinion that this is a multi-player universe.

Re-reading Steve's posts about SR recently, he also says it's a multi-player universe. I used to think he said it was a single player, but it all changed once I re-read his posts and realized how he uses the word "you" in certain spots.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by impaul99

If only one ego exists, meaning our own, then that means nothing really needs to be cured except my own ego. For example, if I see an alcoholic, that simply means that *I* (ego) am projecting the image of an alcoholic because some part of MY ego is addicted to something perhaps, or feels guilty about something or whatever, and there really is no point judging the other person since they are not real. Only *I* exist so I must seek to cure whatever I see wrong with the world in myself.

I agree that in the one player model of subjective reality it makes no sense to judge other persons.
And I also believe that everything what happens in my life has a specific reason. But when an alcoholic appears in my life, it doesn't mean necessarily that I must cure something in myself.
I like the words "or whatever" in your explanation, because this alcoholic can also appear in my life because of a simple, trivial reason (for example, to remind me that I need to contact a friend of mine, a former alcoholic who's now an AA member).


In another thread on this forum (Feeling lonely in subjective reality), I promised to post my single player model of subjective reality this weekend.
As it will be a long, elaborated text and as I don't want to hijack this thread, I believe it's best that I start a new thread.

[AndyMartin]

The breakdown with the single-ego scenario you depict is that, if there is but one ego and it is your own, than you cannot solve the worlds problems by solving your own. Neither can you solve your own problems by solving those of the world. If you solve your own (internal) problems, your external (the world's) problems remain; and if you solve the world's problems without solving your own, you have solved neither. What the single ego scenario really says is that the worlds problems are your own to solve. It changes responsibility, but not the necessary action.

Krishnamurti said that in order to change the world, we need to experience an instantaneous internal and external revolution. A personal revolution on its own is necessary but not sufficient to cause change in the world. Instantaneous means in the present moment, every moment, which means that only by experiencing continual revolution on an individual level and constantly acting for the collective revolution do we have any hope to truly make any lasting change in either.

[Dharma]

The way you have it layed out I'd go with the single player concept.

The really harsh thing here, and I've seen it in other posts too, is that many assume everything outside their body is not real:

Originally Posted by impaul99

there really is no point judging the other person since they are not real.

I agree with the lack of judgement part, but they are entirely real. They are you.

I work part time in EMS (ambulance) and we pick up a drunk every now and then. When I am with them and when I look at them I say to myself, "this is me". Yeah that gets rid of the judgement right away, and brings in
(1) consciousness - I have to look at what I'm addicted to (or wanting to be unconscious of) right now
(2) support for self - how can I help me in this moment?

How I treat that drunk is how I treat myself. Am I harsh with myself? Do I tell myself (the drunk) I'll never make it in life? Do I judge or say thank god that's not me?

Single-player is not me and a bunch of zombies, it is all me. Maybe some people missed the "all-me" expansion pack? Or do you think only the avatar is real and anything outside of it isn't?

IMO you can't have single player where you think the 'others' are not real, not self. That defeats the purpose and you will wind up having the society we have today.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by Dharma

The way you have it layed out I'd go with the single player concept.

The really harsh thing here, and I've seen it in other posts too, is that many assume everything outside their body is not real:

I agree with the lack of judgement part, but they are entirely real. They are you.

I work part time in EMS (ambulance) and we pick up a drunk every now and then. When I am with them and when I look at them I say to myself, "this is me". Yeah that gets rid of the judgement right away, and brings in
(1) consciousness - I have to look at what I'm addicted to (or wanting to be unconscious of) right now
(2) support for self - how can I help me in this moment?

How I treat that drunk is how I treat myself. Am I harsh with myself? Do I tell myself (the drunk) I'll never make it in life? Do I judge or say thank god that's not me?

Single-player is not me and a bunch of zombies, it is all me. Maybe some people missed the "all-me" expansion pack? Or do you think only the avatar is real and anything outside of it isn't?

IMO you can't have single player where you think the 'others' are not real, not self. That defeats the purpose and you will wind up having the society we have today.

I hear you loud and clear buddy and I don't judge ANYONE anymore, I feel for EVERYONE, I relate with EVERYONE, their pain is mine and mine is theirs. The problem with everyone being me and me being everyone is this leads to lonelyness....I am sitting in a room(which in itself is also me along with everything in it) full of people but the fact is, I am talking to myself...staring at myself, all day everyday... as far as I am concerned nothing exists outside of my field of view if I believe that everyone is me and I am everyone and everything(which I do, cuz I have SEEN and FELT it). It seems like masturbation...but I have hated myself for along time and I have ducked responsibility for along time and I ignored or failed to see the signs my Higher-Self was sending me for SO LONG, but now I am atleast HALF awake and I see plenty of signs and I treat everyone with nothing but love and I love myself but I despise my ego because he is the one tricking me into staying in this subjective reality(but I see where he is coming from too...he doesn't want to disapear and niether do I but I sure want him gone, him and the fear he uses to keep me in this cheap physical realm). This is why hard core SR believers can come to feel lonely but it doesn't stop me from facing the world with pure love.

[Jaben]

Thanks for this thread Paul

DoAnyOfYouExist and Dharma,

If you feel there is only one player then either
a) I am not experiencing this being written by the fingers attached to a man named Jaben.
b) or you are not experiencing the reading of this via the eyes of the Avatar's who signed up to Steve's forum as Dharma and DoAnyOfYouExist.

Which is true a or b? Certainly I know a is false because I am aware of the experience of writing this now. And I don't have any reason to feel b is true. In fact I have plenty of resistance to the notion that the experience of you reading this would not occur.

My experiences of oneness haven't been as tangible as yours, DoAnyOfYouExist. However, the fact that you can feel everyone around you as yourself doesn't necessitate that there isn't consciousness experiencing them from their own avatar's perspective does it?

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

"My experiences of oneness haven't been as tangible as yours, DoAnyOfYouExist. However, the fact that you can feel everyone around you as yourself doesn't necessitate that there isn't consciousness experiencing them from their own avatar's perspective does it?"

It sure doesn't bro and after my sgi gosho study tonight I am certain that the people around me are JUST as conscious as I am even if they are my reflections.

[AndyMartin]

If it feels lonely seeing everyone as yourself, then you are still looking from a separateness perspective. You are identifying with your incarnate being and projecting that on every other image of an incarnate being like too spreading too little butter on toast. As long as you are analyzing it, you are fragmenting it, and by fragmenting it you only see the smallness of each piece. So naturally when you try to see that small slice of awareness as all awareness you feel alone because all you've done is created a larger space to hold small pieces. Striving for this realization will never bring it; striving creates more fragmentation, and you can never catch up.

When you truly see the oneness in all things, you realize the infinite expanse of your own awareness. This is not an intellectual recognition. It is a spiritual realization that comes in a very different way. It comes by allowing. If you focus your eyes on the night sky to see the stars, they fade into the darkness. If you let the light of the stars fill your eyes, you will see the light.

[Paul C]

What appears to happen more often than not is that the awakening individual feels bouts of loneliness because they still relate to their ego in a number of ways. Such as when someone continues to believe that their purpose, love, self worth can somehow been found 'outside themselves (either through material possessions and/or people). This doesn't mean that one cannot continue to have material possessions and relationships, but rather bring their happiness and love to the form in question. Regardless if they are indeed a separate ego or just a plain projection.

Instead of choosing either a 'Single Ego' or 'Multiple Ego' universe, I instead consider both valid approaches. That each work together. Because no matter how real another may be in personality, I could still be deceived (from a ego stand-point) by the one consciousness if I were to conclude that one was more understandable -or even more logical- than the other.

In saying that I believe that one could accept both possibilities, but continue to be compassionate and loving to his/her fellow living beings. No need to feel struggle between the two if you already accept a subjective reality, everyone is an illusion on some level anyway.

Hopefully that gave a different perspective (or even made sense at all).

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by AndyMartin

If it feels lonely seeing everyone as yourself, then you are still looking from a separateness perspective. You are identifying with your incarnate being and projecting that on every other image of an incarnate being like too spreading too little butter on toast. As long as you are analyzing it, you are fragmenting it, and by fragmenting it you only see the smallness of each piece. So naturally when you try to see that small slice of awareness as all awareness you feel alone because all you've done is created a larger space to hold small pieces. Striving for this realization will never bring it; striving creates more fragmentation, and you can never catch up.

When you truly see the oneness in all things, you realize the infinite expanse of your own awareness. This is not an intellectual recognition. It is a spiritual realization that comes in a very different way. It comes by allowing. If you focus your eyes on the night sky to see the stars, they fade into the darkness. If you let the light of the stars fill your eyes, you will see the light.

Can you teach me how to "not analyze" the ego death/awakening(I am buddhist but just recently hard core) experience because that is my problem I think, the experience comes at me and I try to analyze it...my brain tries to make sense of it, not only that my heart races and every cell on my body feels afire and it scares me badly, once I pull myself out of the experience I am cold, shaking and afraid of bodily death(damn you ego!)

[AndyMartin]

Originally Posted by DoAnyOfYouExist

Can you teach me how to "not analyze" the ego death/awakening(I am buddhist but just recently hard core) experience because that is my problem I think, the experience comes at me and I try to analyze it...my brain tries to make sense of it, not only that my heart races and every cell on my body feels afire and it scares me badly, once I pull myself out of the experience I am cold, shaking and afraid of bodily death(damn you ego!)

Oh, but you're so close! The fire of living comes from the self behind the identity. We just mistake it for the identity because we don't look past the identity. Clever ego knows that when a finger points, you see the finger, not the spot it's pointing at. So it just points and points and we never know the different. What ego sees and fears annihilation, self sees and knows that it exists beyond disappearance. All you have to do is go to that brink, where the sweat beads on your egoic brow and breathe. Breathe with your whole being. Feel how your awareness moves with each breath. This isn't breath control for meditation; this is being--what meditation is practice for. Notice that fear and exhilaration feel exactly the same; they only differ in the interpretation and the reaction. As you settle into that discomfort, you will find that as soon as you stop fighting it, the same feeling is bliss.

But I can't tell you how to do that; the journey is your own. You have to find it by understanding your own process. Why does your mind try to make sense of it? What does your mind think it will find by reducing and dividing the problem into a million pieces? Problems of the mind are infinitely reducible; how will your mind know when to stop if it reflexively moves from fragment to fragment looking for the whole? What do you see when you stop looking and just let it enter?

[impaul99]

I think that I need to somewhat clarify my question. Let's assume that there is these 4 levels to the world:

1) Supreme Consciousness / God / Superconsciousness
2) Individual Spirit / Soul
3) Ego Mind
4) Physical Body / World

I know that not everyone agrees with the split up I have here, but for the purpose of the conversation lets say these 4 exist. In reality it may be less or more. But assuming these 4 levels exist, at which point does the split into multiple avatars happen?

Does it happen at level 4? This would mean that there is only 1 God, 1 Spirit/Soul, and 1 Ego (mine), which projects itself into any number of Physical Bodies outside of my own body and interacts with my body.

If this is so, I would call this the Single Player model where there is only one ego that needs curing and it is mine. For example, if I have a fear of heights and I cure it within myself, the rest of the world will be cured along with it because I cured it at level 3 before it gets split into all the bodies at level 4.

If the multiplicity split happens at level 2, and there are many little fragmented consciousnesses / souls that then have their own ego's and their own bodies, we then are talking about a multi-player universe.

This would mean that I have a soul/consciousness, and you as the reader also have your own soul/consciousness and we both have an ego each with different fears. For example, you can have a fear of heights and my ego could have a fear of spiders. If you wanted to help yourself, you'd work on curing your fear of heights and I would work of curing my fear of spiders. Since we are seperate at level 2, for me to go skydiving (since I have no fear of heights) doesn't help you any because we are seperate souls which need to face our own fears.

I have no doubt that at level 1 we are ALL connected as ONE and we should treat eachother with compassion and love, but my question revolves around where the split happens. Is there more then one soul / consciousness? Are different souls, through their different re-incarnations and bodies they occupied at different points in their evolutionary enlightenment process?

Or is there only one soul with one set of fears and it uses an avatar and a bunch of projections to overcome those fears etc.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by AndyMartin

What do you see when you stop looking and just let it enter?

My vision begins to pull out...it feels like I am physically waking up and like I said my vision begins to broaden and I realize that I am not this person I am only viewing the world through this persons eyes..I have a higherself and I begin to feel this higher self as me, my physical sensations broaden out as does my vision. I get the fear and worry that I will not be able to return here to fix all the problems I have been sent here to fix and this is why I do not let my view continue to broaden and I do not allow myself to join my higher self. This is my ego fighting to live. My spiritual self and my ego are in a constant battle day in and day out.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Frans

In another thread on this forum (Feeling lonely in subjective reality), I promised to post my single player model of subjective reality this weekend.
As it will be a long, elaborated text and as I don't want to hijack this thread, I believe it's best that I start a new thread.

Frans, have you posted this yet? I can't seem to find it.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Frans, have you posted this yet? I can't seem to find it.

I'm still working on the technical part of it.

The problem is: I need to use some tabulations (tables in HTML) so people can follow my reasoning. The textboxes in this forum don't allow this, so I'm forced to create some web pages that I will post on one of my sites today or tomorrow.

When this is done, I will start a new thread in this forum, so people can discuss this.

[Jaben]

I get the fear and worry that I will not be able to return here to fix all the problems I have been sent here to fix and this is why I do not let my view continue to broaden and I do not allow myself to join my higher self. This is my ego fighting to live. My spiritual self and my ego are in a constant battle day in and day out.

1. Can you describe what makes you feel you won't be able to return?
2. It seems like you aren't sure if the urge to stay is from your ego or from your higher Self. It's because you feel you have purpose or at least will find more meaning in staying that causes you to fear leaving for good, isn't it? If you were certain it was your ego telling you this then it would be easier to let go, wouldn't it?