Does god exist?

[Spartan]

Here's my take on God

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

This is also where LOA breaks down mightily for me too, because not only did I genuinely expect good things, but I wasn't even capable of conceiving most of what she went through. I feel diminished and degraded now that I can conceive of it. There are some things you should never have to see.

Had I been in tune with what Moma must have been feeling, in the same way I have come to realize since she died, I would have been of no use to her and would have dissolved into a puddled of mud in the floor. Since she died, all the fear and finality and hopelessness and just the d_mn unfairness of it all, that she spent her life taking care of other sick people and then suffer like this herself has kept me from sleeping at times. But I'm better now.

While Moma was dying, if I tried to be detached and clinical in order to not upset her, she said I didn't give a damn. If I broke down in tears, I was whining and selfish. That was just her way, to fight, and I didn't expect that to improve now that she was in constant pain, with her body rotting while she was still in it and falling apart in big chunks of blood.

I was devasted when my dad died suddenly at work at 50, never sick before, and I haven't decided which way was easier to accept. My mom was mad at God about the cancer and said the same thing I saw on the bucket list movie, "I was hoping for a nice clean heart attack". Maybe God didn't intend for her to die until 80 but she shortened her own life by smoking so much, I don't know. Maybe she should have prayed before every cigarette once she knew they were poison and two of her siblings already died from lung cancer. I just never thought to blame God or give up on Him for any of that or even blame Him that she had been born with only one kidney, which is why she died.

Her's was not my first rodeo with a painful, drawn out, death. The first time shortly after my experience with God, I honestly believed I should stand in faith and that my faith would make a difference. It didn't. The Bible says God can and does heal people but it also says that "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." That first disappointment there caused me to seek to know His voice so I wouldn't set myself up like that again and pray against what He knew was going to happen.

Now it's more like Jesus did, "Let this cup pass nevertheless, not what I will but thy will be done". We forget Jesus Himself was sorrowful unto death when He prayed that in the Garden or that He had to get by Himself when His cousin was murdered or that He cried when Lazarus died.

I know some people are teaching a faith that is more like having faith in our faith or in words in a book picked out at random at our will, like you can use it as a magic spell, and repeat it or think it until it happens. Those words are accounts of experiences of people with God and do increase our faith but it's not the same as communicating with the one the book is about.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I like your "where are you in this" approach much better. Do you find yourself getting at least THAT prayer answered consistently?

I don't have any experiences to recount that don't included imperfections and mistakes because I am not perfect and really don't understand all that I hear. Neither do I always obey what I do understand. Maybe that is why my life is still s_it. My relationship with God is not one of fear, more of awe, but I sometimes think I can help Him or that what He is asking me to do is too much of a burden. I have made so many mistakes, costly mistakes, that for a time, I didn't seek His voice because I didn't want the responsibility of doing it or of failing at it.

And the worst time of doubting was after wrestling with my daughter's crack addiction for years and years and the toll that took in my marriage, not from anything she did to us because I refused to enable her, but from me being anxious and concerned about her all the thime. I didn't have it in me to seek God for anything but a way to sleep at night knowing that knock might come on the door to tell me she was dead. To me that doesn't prove the Bible isn't true; if anything it proves the Bible is true, that there is a devil comes to steal, kill and destroy and what he is after is your faith.

God had told me, in another dramatic experience, even before she got on the hard stuff, that He knew how to reach her and that nothing was too hard for Him. When it got really bad and it looked like she wasn't coming back, I doubted whether I had really heard from Him. What did God want me to do in all that? All I could do was hold on to Him and keep loving her. He brought her back around all by Himself after I had accepted the fact that she could die or be killed from it. She's not perfect yet but she's been off that stuff for almost three years and now she and her husband and their baby beat me to church.

She might have been in prison for murder right now though, if God had not sent me, while she was out there in mess, to tell her a person's name that neither of us knew and for her to avoid that person. Shortly after that, a person by that name offered her a lot of money to kill someone. I didn't know any of this but she must have been considering it because God sent me again, this time to tell her she was being set up. That second word scared her, she had known her life was in danger as soon as the offer was made, so she spilled it all out for me. We did what God said and it all worked out, nobody was killed and the guilty are still in jail for life.

So, what did God get me? A husband that didn't suffer a painful death from cancer, a loving step father that lived to adopt me as an adult after my own father died, walking away from five car accidents, with two cars totalled, within a five month period, none of which were my fault. Three of the accidents were on my way to church and two of them were in the car God sent me the exact money to repair. I really thought the devil was after me and got a little PTSD then. And this was right before God used me to get that cancer out of John so I guess the devil was trying to kill him too. What else? A more humble, prodigal, alive daughter. Family members that died in peace with God after He warned me they were going to die months before they got sick. Numerous other little things, money coming out of think air in the mail when I needed it. Directed to job openings when someone needed one that day. Very specific prayers I said alone in my room being repeated to me word for word at church as His way of letting me know He heard and would answer. Signs coming that I asked for, that type of thing.

[NightSpirit]

I know you are not impressed. What would impress you? If God gave me the lottery numbers? That would impress me too. I hope He does that for you. Gives me the numbers, not you, I mean. Okay, I'm being selfish. You can have them if it will help you believe He cares. But you have to get them for yourself. I don't think I have enough of Jesus in me, yet, to get them and then give them away. But I'll work on that. (That was all a joke, in case it doesn't read that way)

I did hear about a 19 year old that said he got his numbers from a word from God and won the powerball the first time he ever played in his life. You can google it, if you didn't see it. And a woman named Velma Thomas came back from the dead while they were waiting for someone to harvest her organs. Someone in her family had been to that revival in Florida where they say 11 have come back from the dead so far around the country after people who went there prayed for them. Just saying, stories are out there.

One of the first times God told me to do something after I started to hear His voice, I didn't want to do it. I had been studying my Bible at my desk while everyone else was on break and a man I only knew casually came over and ask me why I was doing that. I thought it strange at the time. He wasn't a Christian but he told me about an experience he had on a mountain top once and he knew ever since that there was a God. But he never felt it again.
A couple of days later, we passed in the hall, God told me to speak to him again. So I did, talked to him about work and then I told him about the church I was going to near his house, that kind of thing. I was friendly with him and we spoke a few more times briefly in passing.

A few days later he came passed my work station, and as clearly as I ever heard God, He told me, "Speak to him again." By that time, I said, "God, I don't want to be a pest to that guy." And then I came up with a religious, good reason to not speak to him. I said, "God, he's married and if I keep stopping him to speak, either he's going to think I am after him or people that see us talking all the time will think that I am not really a Christian." Even after he passed by the second time and God said the same thing, I still didn't do it and I remember walking away feeling like I was so wrong. Well, maybe next time I will.

Before the next time came, someone came to me and said," Did you hear about Allan?" the guy I was told to speak to. "No what about him?" "They just found him dead in the parking lot."

I had failed God and Allan, if God had wanted to say something to him through me. I guess God was merciful to me because I didn't get all the news at once. My co-worker came back and said, "Allan killed himself in his car." I will live the rest of my life not knowing what God could have done. Allan may have killed himself anyway and I would still have hurt but at least been obediant.

It is serious business and a lot of people are hurting in the world. God cares about people and if you care about God, then you will be called to hurting, sometimes dying people. Since then I have been sent to people that God said go to because they were going to die or were about to face an illness that would require His love in the situation. I said it has not been all glory to glory, but it has really. It's just the in-between glory times that get me down. Mother Theresa was called to serve lepers and you have to have a calling to do something like that, to not go crazy and to be able to refill yourself with God.

The preacher had a word for the church last week, growing weary of the way some charismatics are always seeking blessings. He said, "I have a word for you. We are all going to die one day, everyone of us in here." God is concerned with how we die and for his children, they are not to be alone and from what I have seen, the death of a child of God always, always ends up changing someone for the better, as your wife's death changed that doctor and has inspired me and others.

I am not trying to save you or put God into you. I am of the once saved leaning so I just want to say I know God is already in you and always has been. You have been the same kind of conduit or vessel for love(and God is love and love is of God as the Bible says) just as your wife but for sent to your wife and for others that are hurting or misunderstood on these threads. I don't believe he would have called you to her, and what would her life and death been like without your help, if he didn't know, as the author of your faith, that He could bring you through it.

Thanks for your understanding and kindness in being present with me.

No, thank you. This has helped me a lot to sort out things and loose ends about my mother's death.

[paeterus]

probably not.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Here's my take on God

Originally Posted by Spartan

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.” - Gene Roddenberry

This is a misperception of the beliefs and the story logic of God. We are not blamed by God for our mistakes; we are held accountable for our choices based on the information we have been given. We have not been created with a faulty ability to make those choices.

[Jerichosfate]

Hello people Im new to this site and seeking discussion on subjects concerning theology and of a spiritual nature. I thought this would be a good area to start.

I have read varying different ''Ideas'' relating to who or what God is or even if a God exists at all...
Me ? Well lets say I think ones perception of God is a combination of life experience , the enviroment they have lived in , upbringing etc.... I think as one gets older we are more questioning of our place in the universe.

I for one believe in God , but trying to work out what God is, is another manner .......please reply one and all and lets have a wee debate on this subject

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Jerichosfate

I for one believe in God , but trying to work out what God is, is another manner .......please reply one and all and lets have a wee debate on this subject

Welcome.

I think we have exhausted ourselves on this subject. Read through the last six pages of this topic and reply to specific comments and pick up the thread that way maybe. No sense reinventing the wheel. Although I must warn you, we didn't figure it out any more definitively than anyone has in the last few thousand years.

--Bob

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Bob,

This is answer I am offering in all seriousness. God is Love. And I don't mean the emotion per se. Maguru asked what is the reason for being, God's reason. It is to express that love. Love holds this whole universe together (it certainly isn't logic). Light and dark, male and female, protons and electrons... what keeps these opposites from flying apart into chaos? What keeps the whole system in balance?

It cannot be objectified, though we often choose an object as love and anyone can experience love any time anywhere. You can take care of yourself, but you are not an island. You require connection, an intimacy that is beyond physical. We all do. Love is the greatest motive a human being can possess.

Your own story about you and your wife has moved many people on this forum, including myself. From a rational, materialist stand-point what you did was totally illogical and futile. What other reason could you have for doing so except love? Perhaps you could reduce it to some automatic behavior, but you are more intelligent and insightful than that. Does it underwhelm you? I think not. It visits you on a daily basis.

Faith in God is love for its own sake. Loving when there is no specific object to love. People say, how can there be so much misery and suffering if this is true? How can God allow it? Suffering sets us up for love every time. An opportunity to relieve suffering is an opportunity to love. In the process of loving, you are loved which relieves your suffering. That is the experience where you can find God. God is not owned by any religion, philosophy or person. The intellect can not 'corner the market' on God, that is why he appears unreasonable. If he were reasonable, there would be a specific philosophy or religion to believe in that we were certain of it's truth and anyone who didn't believe it would die without knowing love.

Last thing: as I've said, I admire your wit and intelligence. You write better than most people, even me. And I'm the ♥♥♥♥♥ I believe you were designed to love this world in a manner that no other person can. It is not some far off plane of consciousness where that exists, it is right in front of you. The will of God is obvious.

I realize you and other people could tear this all apart. I really don't give a damn. I'll take my chances. Am I trying to get you to see the light? Sure. Is it for some personal ego trip? Maybe. I can't see the benefit outside of what I've described above. I'm no body special. I'm just being honest.

Merc

I see the logic in that suffering creates love but that is only one outcome of love. The other side of love is fear. How many can say they love another without fear? Does love not also create suffering?

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I see the logic in that suffering creates love but that is only one outcome of love. The other side of love is fear. How many can say they love another without fear? Does love not also create suffering?

Love is only one outcome of suffering, too. Some other possible outcomes are hopelessness, loss of faith, despair, fatalism and indifference / callousness. And fear. Because suffering, especially intense, sustained suffering, inevitably conveys the message to the sufferer, "I am being punished" and to any caring observer, "that which I cherish I cherish alone and without hope".

It is a myth that suffering is ennobling. Suffering is demeaning, degrading, and nasty. That is why people turn their back on suffering and try to blame the victim. They don't want to share in it. Suffering and calamity remind the rest of us of our mortality. We don't want that interfering with our happy thoughts.

It is a myth that love conquers all. It is a great thing, so far as it goes, but it does not, in my experience, inherently bring needed answers to difficult situations. I can't imagine loving anyone more than I loved my wife, but it didn't empower me to give her the help she actually needed, when she actually needed it. It was better to love her than, say, to be indifferent to her or neglect her or beat her, and loving her at least didn't add suffering to suffering. But it didn't alleviate one iota of the suffering she had anyway. And it certainly caused me suffering.

The only way of looking at this that I have found so far that makes any sense ... and it may not be practical in the sense of something useful in the here and now, but at least a framework for understanding ... is A Course in Miracle's metaphysics of uncompromising non-duality.

If everything is one mind, and the entire universe a self-created dream, and every unpleasant thing in it (including the torment of chronic physical or mental illness) is simply a projecting of our own imagined guilt which we have to either learn to forgive or suffer thereby, then several things are true:

1. We can look at the universe honestly, as the unsatisfactory place of illusory, transient pleasures and enduring misery that it truly is.

2. We need not blame god for something he didn't create.

3. We need not blame god for not responding to or interacting with something that was never his idea in the first place, beyond giving us the ability to chose his reality and gradually awake from the dream and return to him.

Even if I ultimately don't buy everything ACIM teaches, ACIM does give me hope that I can find plausible hope despite what happened. There are stories that could explain and fit the facts. This is encouraging, given that as far as I can tell, plausible stories are all anyone really has.

My wife's suffering did have the effect of destroying so many of my illusions and leaving me with so little to lose that I have been open to ideas and ways of being and thinking that I otherwise would not have been. In that sense, perhaps she ultimately advanced my spiritual well being, which is to say, she helped me to awaken a little more from the dream.

Or for all I know she pushed me into a different dream that's just less painful. Either way, I feel like I'm headed in a good direction.

--Bob

[Angela]

I think love never causes suffering. It's believing our thoughts about love that can cause suffering.

Thoughts like:
"If he loved me, he'd stay with me forever."
"If she loved me, she wouldn't have had sex with my best friend."
"I love him; why doesn't he love me?!"
"She only wants sex once a month; that means she doesn't love me. At least not as much as I love her."
"He loves me, but not the way I need to be loved."
"I need your love."
"I know I should leave this abusive relationship, but I looooove him!"

Love feels good. It's buying into all the crapola beliefs that feels bad.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think love never causes suffering. It's believing our thoughts about love that can cause suffering.

You are absolutely correct, in so far as what you say goes, but to care about someone who is suffering and for whom you can do nothing, hurts.

Love is not always about wine and roses. Sometimes, to stand and be true costs you.

--Bob

[Angela]

I agree, Bob; except that emotional pain and suffering are two different things. And love does not make suffering mandatory. Not even loving someone who is suffering makes your suffering mandatory, or even desirable.

By the way, Bob, I don't mean in any way to marginalize the pain you have felt in witnessing the pain Linda felt or the pain of loss of your beloved, wonderful wife. Please don't think I'm saying you *shouldn't* feel pain or suffer over what happened. But knowing Linda through what you've expressed about her, I get the very strong feeling that the very last possible thing in the universe she would want is for you to suffer any more than you already have, and that if it were in her power to remove the suffering you took on in the past, she would do it. In fact, it doesn't sound like she herself did much emotional or mental suffering, did she? It was hard, it was a challenge, and it hurt like hell physically, but one thing it sounds like she was unwilling to do to herself or to you was to suffer. Am I wrong about that?

You know I don't believe in a personal interventionist god, but from what you have described of Linda, it's easy for me to recognize a god-essense -- non-personal and non-interventionist, to be sure, but what feels universal and godlike to me: infinite love, joy, abundance, and power. My guess is that's what she wished for you to experience, and if I'm wrong and there is an afterlife, that's what she's wishing for you now.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Angela

You know I don't believe in a personal interventionist god, but from what you have described of Linda, it's easy for me to recognize a god-essense -- non-personal and non-interventionist, to be sure, but what feels universal and godlike to me: infinite love, joy, abundance, and power. My guess is that's what she wished for you to experience, and if I'm wrong and there is an afterlife, that's what she's wishing for you now.

We want to see what we want to see. This is why we put people who suffer without becoming disillusioned up on a pedestal.

Like all of us, my wife was a complicated mix of things. She was not a fully enlightened being, so I can't say that she didn't suffer. In some ways she suffered less than I did, and in some ways more.

She seemed incapable of self pity and anger. But she struggled a great deal with not feeling securely loved, valued, and especially, respected. By anyone. Me, her beloved aunt, her adoring colleagues. She was the common denominator in all of her constant devastation at how everyone betrayed her and didn't really care about her. But she couldn't see that and make that connection. Not at all. Big wall of denial there. The thing that made it tolerable and heartbreaking at the same time is that she was never bitter about it. Just hurt.

She got along best with her concept of god and with animals, not so much with people. She was incredibly thoughtful and kind at times, but in her mind no one ever adequately reciprocated. As a result sometimes could be all clarity and no kindness. She could, by her own admission, be a bit arrogant at times. She did not suffer fools well.

At any rate, it is difficult under the best of circumstances to experience what she did without feeling punished, and she certainly felt punished. I managed over several years to break her of the habit of prefacing every personal request with "I'm sorry", at least with me, but sadly I think she went to her grave doubting her right to exist. I can't say that I blame her. It's not like life was respectful to her. Was that self-created? [sigh]. Maybe. I guess it doesn't matter anymore, does it?

In spite of all this she did somehow have an experiential knowledge of "infinite love, joy and power" and it did ground her and strengthen her, and, at times, comfort her. The other stuff provided her with plenty of cognitive dissonance, but never completely broke her either.

Although due to her background she tended to express this experiential knowledge in conventional Christian terms, her concept of god was distinctly unorthodox. To her, god was someone who wanted her to play and enjoy her life and to have a sense of wonder about it. In fact god was someone who explicitly wanted to play with her. That is how she experienced god, as a nine year old out in the meadow on the north forty with her horse Penny tethered, as she looked up into the sky. She experienced him as a child's playmate. It was a very personal experience that never left her. "Come, play with me."

I don't know what purpose, if any, her illness served but as a child she was given a glimpse of something eternal that sustained her in her difficult existence and comforted her in her losses, I suppose, but then neither did it really fulfill the implied promise of steadfast camaraderie and ease either. At the end of the day, her life was still destroyed in the messiest and most hurtful possible ways.

Yes, she wanted me to experience that positive sense of god, but I never got it. Furthermore, seeing what it did and didn't do for her in practical terms, I could not really trust it. I am an empiricist and an idealist. It is difficult for me to "live the questions". I want answers, dammit. ;-)

--Bob

[Angela]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Was that self-created? [sigh]. Maybe. I guess it doesn't matter anymore, does it?

It is difficult for me to "live the questions". I want answers, dammit. ;-)

--Bob

I think it does matter. Your looking boldly at what your wife went through gives you the opportunity to expand; if you are willing to look at what she created in her life, it may give you some valuable insight into what you are creating.

For instance, and I don't know this for sure, but one thing it looks like to me that you are creating is frustration -- you want answers, and at the same time you recognize that your empiricist approach is probably not going to give you answers that completely satisfy you. In another post you urged people to just say, "I don't know," but it's just not satisfying for you, is it, without the drive to keep on trying to figure it out. It just appears to me, though, that you may figure it out and you may not, but why suffer in the meanwhile? Why not choose joy instead? In that way, I feel that it is indeed possible to experience life and love as "wine and roses," rather than being resigned to the "fact" that suffering is part of it. There's nothing there to figure out, there is just a choice.

By the way, have you articulated your real question? It's not as simple as "Does god exist?" is it?

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Although due to her background she tended to express this experiential knowledge in conventional Christian terms, her concept of god was distinctly unorthodox. To her, god was someone who wanted her to play and enjoy her life and to have a sense of wonder about it. In fact god was someone who explicitly wanted to play with her. That is how she experienced god, as a nine year old out in the meadow on the north forty with her horse Penny tethered, as she looked up into the sky. She experienced him as a child's playmate. It was a very personal experience that never left her. "Come, play with me."

I don't know what purpose, if any, her illness served but as a child she was given a glimpse of something eternal that sustained her in her difficult existence and comforted her in her losses, I suppose, but then neither did it really fulfill the implied promise of steadfast camaraderie and ease either. At the end of the day, her life was still destroyed in the messiest and most hurtful possible ways.

Yes, she wanted me to experience that positive sense of god, but I never got it. Furthermore, seeing what it did and didn't do for her in practical terms, I could not really trust it. I am an empiricist and an idealist. It is difficult for me to "live the questions". I want answers, dammit. ;-)

--Bob

I've been in a couple different (never-ending) debates on here with rationalist skeptics and it confirmed to me that these answers are not reached through thinking. There's so much uncertainty in all this and logic and science give the illusion of certainty, more so for the modern man than faith. To me, it just another illusion. Smoke and mirrors.

Perhaps there is something to being comfortable with the uncertainty. From what I read of your posts, you seem to simply not want to be disillusioned. At the same time, you are still grasping for the right answer. Maybe through reason instead of belief this time, you'll get to the truth.

Maybe the truth is that we don't know. And the trick here is to stop trying to know and accept the uncertainty, the impermanence. I'm not saying we should be ignorant. Just that this kind of knowledge is not gained through grasping.

Damn. I'm sounding more like a Buddhist every day.

[Marco Polo]

God is a drug, but mainly a positive one. People get totally addicted.

Personally I'm intrigued by Pantheism. I like the idea that every material object contains a spark of divinity. However, "God" is not an area where I like to label excessively. Labels are always insufficient - divinity simply is. Words are a good attempt at formulating our subjective awareness, but in the grand scheme of things, they're basically a mockery.

Then again, in defense of science it should be pointed out that scientific method is not about reaching certainty, which is a common misconception. Science simply makes use of statistical probabilities, not absolutism. No serious scientist would proclaim with 100% certainty that a monotheistic deity can't exist. S/he would simply juxtapose it, in terms of probability, to, say, believing in flying Hobbits or tap-dancing Koala bears.

I'm strongly in favour of the cause & effect paradigm, the mechanical universe, for instance when it comes to the more basic, practical aspects of personal development.

Where an unconscious person sees magic or mystical coincidence, the conscious observer sees effect (or "manifestation", if you will). If point A is now, containing a specific set of thoughts and actions, these will push like dominoes to make points B -> C -> D and so on. It is through this almost childishly simple idea, wedded to naturalistic materialism, that we are provided with the necessary structure of thought to create amazing things like computers - millions of electrical nodes switching on and off, to produce what you're seeing in front of you right now... it's almost magical, yet so mechanical at the core. (of course we all love the end-result, since we can use it to discuss how Newton's clockwork universe failed...)

Anyway, when it comes to the major religions, I think God also comes with a "package" which people seem to find agreeable. Religion is a way of life, a moral code, a feeling of community, a relationship with the divine etc etc - neatly organized for our benefit.

I've always been against militant Atheism. It misses a few important points: first of all, you can't kill spirituality with logic. Spirituality is the music of the soul, so it's in our interest to keep it. Secondly, we've built up all these churches now - thousands of beautiful domes, cathedrals and chapels across our lands. For hundreds of years they have been our spiritual institutions. We should be USING them somehow, not destroying everything they stand for...

meh, that's my take on it for the time being at least...

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Angela

...one thing it looks like to me that you are creating is frustration -- you want answers, and at the same time you recognize that your empiricist approach is probably not going to give you answers that completely satisfy you. In another post you urged people to just say, "I don't know," but it's just not satisfying for you, is it, without the drive to keep on trying to figure it out.

Admitting that you don't know is a necessary first step that too many never get to. I'm not saying it's the last step by any means.

And yes, you're right, I've grown weary of trying to figure out that which basically can't be figured out. There's not enough actual information to work with. If there is a motivation to keep playing that game, I don't know what it is. I admit I don't know. I'm looking and listening. I probably always will keep my ear to the rails. But I am not waiting around for the train anymore either.

Originally Posted by Angela

It just appears to me, though, that you may figure it out and you may not, but why suffer in the meanwhile? Why not choose joy instead? In that way, I feel that it is indeed possible to experience life and love as "wine and roses," rather than being resigned to the "fact" that suffering is part of it. There's nothing there to figure out, there is just a choice.

So ... joy is not an outcome, but something that is just "there"? So I've heard, but it hasn't been my experience. I open that door and find an empty room.

I am not actively suffering anymore, precisely because I let it be as it is. But I am not in a state of bliss either. Suffering comes from fighting what is. But joy comes from something other than the end of struggle. It requires embracing something. What? Darned if I know. I don't see anything sustainable, trustworthy or useful to engage.

Originally Posted by Angela

By the way, have you articulated your real question? It's not as simple as "Does god exist?" is it?

No, but that is what this thread is (or was, at any rate) about.

My real question, I suppose, is how do I either get out of this rigged game / shared illusion to a better place, or failing that, find a rationale / purpose for it. To understand how to do that you have to have a plausible metaphysical understanding and at least a glimpse of ultimate truth.

I can simply work, pay the bills, grow old, and die. That is what everyone does and it is what is unarguably doable.

I at least know how to have some fun along the way. I'm not sitting here in my cups, bemoaning my fate. Now that I understand not to take life so seriously I can pretty much let it go. But I have to say, the dream of transcendence in the here and now and the hope of all things being made right someday were mighty fine. I'll miss 'em.

--Bob

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

Maybe the truth is that we don't know. And the trick here is to stop trying to know and accept the uncertainty, the impermanence. I'm not saying we should be ignorant. Just that this kind of knowledge is not gained through grasping.

I'm reasonably sure that is as close as I'm going to get in the foreseeable future to an "answer".

Doesn't mean I like it ;-)

The story of my life, though, has been letting go of what I think I know. It may be the story of everyone's life. No, I don't really want to be disillusioned. In general that is regarded as some kind of personal tragedy, to get to that point. I'm not so sure it is, though. The real tragedy is thinking we know things that ain't so.

I don't think feeling good at the expense of dealing in reality is a good bargain. But on the other hand we need a certain ... I don't know, a sense of achievement and purpose, too. This means living in the Land Of Things That Are Achievable. Abundance, I think, likes partly in the art of taking on just enough in life that you have more than enough to meet those chosen challenges. I had a tendency to take on anything and everything. This "bring it on" attitude is admired by many, especially in the U.S., but I'm not sure it's a smart approach to life.

So ... I ♥♥♥♥, shower, shave, work ... I have some good friends and some interesting things to do. I don't have my dreamed-of "love for the ages", I don't have god smiling down on me anymore, I don't know much about the Meaning of Life (tm) with certainty, but, as Angela has insightfully suggested, I'm not frustrated anymore either. There is virtue in contentment with what works. I've been greedy and I've been content, and I really like content.

--Bob

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I see the logic in that suffering creates love but that is only one outcome of love. The other side of love is fear. How many can say they love another without fear? Does love not also create suffering?

What makes a rose beautiful is one day it will wilt. What makes my daughter cute is one day she'll grow up. What makes my life a miracle is one day it will be gone. When I say love, I'm referring to something deeper than the emotion. I'm referring to the experience or realization that one day you will close your eyes and not open them again, which gives rise to compassion and gratitude. There is fear there, but that is an instinctual reaction because we are programmed to survive.

Only this moment holds us together.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I don't think feeling good at the expense of dealing in reality is a good bargain. But on the other hand we need a certain ... I don't know, a sense of achievement and purpose, too. This means living in the Land Of Things That Are Achievable. Abundance, I think, likes partly in the art of taking on just enough in life that you have more than enough to meet those chosen challenges. I had a tendency to take on anything and everything. This "bring it on" attitude is admired by many, especially in the U.S., but I'm not sure it's a smart approach to life.

I know what you mean (or I don't ). I came to this point in my journey where I was at some 'moutain top', but then I wondered what the hell I was supposed to do now. There was still the need for a purpose, an object to pursue, a meaning to my life. Another way to say it: I was good at screwing up, I learned how to stop screwing up, then I didn't know what else to do with myself, so I screwed things up again.

If you've been drowning your whole life, it's uncomfortable to breathe fresh air without stuggle. Drowning becomes preferable. I'm still there, in all honesty.

The best answer I can come up with is to teach others how to wake up with me. I spend a lot of time on this forum and though everything I write on here isn't enlightening, that's really what I'm doing: trying to wake up and help others do the same.

I think you can relate to that. You may be a skeptic, a rationalist, but your here for more than that, yes?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

So ... joy is not an outcome, but something that is just "there"? So I've heard, but it hasn't been my experience. I open that door and find an empty room.

Yup!!!! Joy is just there, or more accurately, it's Here. Right now, you and me. You choose it, or you don't. You don't have to choose it and I'm not saying you *should*. But from my perspective of having chosen it, and recognizing that that is all there is to it, it's easy for me to see how crazy that sounds to someone who hasn't chosen joy, and hasn't yet recognized that it's our natural state. It's that whole spinning ballerina thing... until you see that the only thing switching you between joy and suffering is a choice, the very idea sounds, well, idiotic at best, dangerous at worst, and like denial and delusion in between!

Still, despite my idiocy, danger, denial, and delusion I invite you to keep your options open to the idea that there will not always be an empty room. One day you can open that door to ... what did you call it? Bliss. And I will be with you on that day, just like I am here with you right now.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

What makes a rose beautiful is one day it will wilt. What makes my daughter cute is one day she'll grow up. What makes my life a miracle is one day it will be gone. When I say love, I'm referring to something deeper than the emotion. I'm referring to the experience or realization that one day you will close your eyes and not open them again, which gives rise to compassion and gratitude. There is fear there, but that is an instinctual reaction because we are programmed to survive.

Only this moment holds us together.

I cannot quite relate to your phylosophy.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

She might have been in prison for murder right now though, if God had not sent me, while she was out there in mess, to tell her a person's name that neither of us knew and for her to avoid that person. Shortly after that, a person by that name offered her a lot of money to kill someone. I didn't know any of this but she must have been considering it because God sent me again, this time to tell her she was being set up. That second word scared her, she had known her life was in danger as soon as the offer was made, so she spilled it all out for me. We did what God said and it all worked out, nobody was killed and the guilty are still in jail for life.

So, what did God get me? A husband that didn't suffer a painful death from cancer, a loving step father that lived to adopt me as an adult after my own father died, walking away from five car accidents, with two cars totalled, within a five month period, none of which were my fault. Three of the accidents were on my way to church and two of them were in the car God sent me the exact money to repair. I really thought the devil was after me and got a little PTSD then. And this was right before God used me to get that cancer out of John so I guess the devil was trying to kill him too. What else? A more humble, prodigal, alive daughter. Family members that died in peace with God after He warned me they were going to die months before they got sick. Numerous other little things, money coming out of think air in the mail when I needed it. Directed to job openings when someone needed one that day. Very specific prayers I said alone in my room being repeated to me word for word at church as His way of letting me know He heard and would answer. Signs coming that I asked for, that type of thing.

Amazing story.

How do you know you aren't mistaking your guides for God?

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Amazing story.

How do you know you aren't mistaking your guides for God?

I know it's God mostly because the stuff that has happened to me has been in the context of the church or while I was praying to God. And sometimes I am led by a specific scripture. Once God told me that I would know what to do about a certain situation when I heard a specific Bible verse. He didn't tell me what to do but that I would know when I heard the verse. I didn't tell anyone about it at all, just watching and listening.

We gave a family member a ride from the parking lot to the entrance of the hospital she was visiting and before she got out she said "What I am seeing now reminds me of these verses in the Bible" and she started quoting them. She wasn't even a person that attended church or spoke much about the Bible and the verses weren't some a lot of people might use in everyday conversation. It's kind of personal but the way it happened did give me my answer and I started crying. My husband, who was my fiancée at the time, didn't know I had been waiting for the sign so he didn't know what was going on and when I told him, he started crying too. Before the day was out another person that neither of us knew quoted the same rather lengthy passage to both of us out of the blue as confirmation.

I guess guides could disguise themselves as God or God disguise Himself as guides, which way up or down on the truth scale I guess can't be known for sure.

Before I became a Christian, I tried other ways and spent some time trying to find out things through other methods of divination. I had a certain Chinese sheet of paper that was pretty reliable and I was getting intuitive at palm reading before I came back to the church. I mentioned it to ALG but when I tried to throw all those books out, just books, to clean out my house some kind of spiritual thing happened that didn't feel so good, like my own hands were fighting me or that the books wanted to stay. I knew they were going out then if I had any doubts about them before.

I went back to that kind of stuff after my experience with God in the Baptism of the Spirit during a time when I was not living a particularly Christian life. I looked into all kind of stuff and one day God let me know that I needed to stop it. I tried psychics and readers. I was looking for someone who God was using even if they didn't know it but they were just babbling mostly. Erin came the closest to any but when she mentioned a dead person wanted to come through, I guess I wasn't as far away from the Bible as I thought I was and didn't get into that. The dead person that I thought it might be, I wouldn't have driven across town to hear them while they were alive so I really didn't want to know what they were saying. Could have been a big insurance policy I didn't know about or something. LOL.

I wasn't looking for things like this to happen when I came back to God. And like a lot of people, I thought God and the church were against things like that. I went to Baptists churches the first time I tried to know God and I just didn't know there were places within Christianity that expected to be supernaturally led by God or to really see miraculous things happen.
People misuse the gifts in church sometimes too and speak out of their own minds and I have fooled myself before about things too. It's just like in the LOA asking, the more I am attached to what the answer should be, the more likely it is that I will get nothing at all or to deceive myself.

Have you read this? I linked to it on the If God is Real thread so ignore it if you have but it might answer more of why I'm sure it's God.
Who are the Christians?