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Hsiang-Lin · 12-07-2006, 07:15 PM

"Why do you choose life over death right now?"

I deleted my original post because I made some realizations. But here's my latests thoughts.

People are often quick to denounce suicide and self-sacrifice. For example, I told my friends and family about the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who performed self-immolation to protest against the government's abuse of Buddhists. Their reaction was, "He could have protested in a better way," or "That's just foolish." This really surprised me.

It seems the word, "martyr," has been replaced with foolishness or stupidity. I can also see why. With the rise of terrorism to the forefront of news these days, it's no wonder suicide and self-sacrifice is so frowned upon.

But people often say, "Live like you'll die tomorrow." Nowadays, it seems happiness is measured by how ready you are to die at any given moment. And if you tell people you are going to risk your life to pursue a goal or higher cause, they'll say, "Don't be stupid. There's other ways to accomplish what you desire." Surely, they have a point. Death is often not the only solution. Yet, in some extreme cases such as with the Buddhist monk, was it really such a stupid act? Why do people value life so much to the point that risking their lives on any endeavor is considered foolish?

Also, if you look at our death from a context outside of our own world, it's not really all negative. If I die, I help save and recycle a lifetime worth of resources for other people.

And for those who are just itching to type, "Why don't you commit suicide right now then, eh?" My answer is that it is fear that is preventing me from doing so. My worst fear is fear of death from torture and pain. Also, I do not want to hurt my loved ones. I know my death would impact them the most. Assuming these two factors are taken care of, then yes, I would consider suicide although I wouldn't act on it so brashly without further thought. I wouldn't say I'm depressed at this point. This is just a logical progression of thoughts that has led me to a standstill.

wolfgang · 12-07-2006, 07:35 PM

Somewhere I picked up the idea that suicide is self murder. So reread you rpost and substitute suicide with murder and you'll have a different feeling, I'd think.

Markus74 · 12-07-2006, 07:37 PM

Interesting question.

Maybe Death is (even) better than Life. Who knows?

As for self-sacrifice and suicide, I'd say that everyone is free to do what he wants to do. Except if you're the parent of children, then you have the duty to look after them. Suicide in that case would be a shame and irresponsible.

And suicide as a flight from problems is cowardice.

But if you're independent and freely chose to die, maybe because you're curious. Why not? Most people don't like such behavior though because it confronts them with the reality of Death and the Unknown.

msd · 12-07-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

Also, is our death really all that bad? Call me weird, but if I die, that's one less person the world needs to worry about. Also, I won't be using all this toilet paper, eating all this food, and using all these resources.

No. If you die, that's one less contributor that could potentially change one life or billions of lives for the better. Just keeping things in perspective

Markus74 · 12-07-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msd

No. If you die, that's one less contributor that could potentially change one life or billions of lives for the better. Just keeping things in perspective

How do you know that Life is better than Death?

msd · 12-07-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus74

How do you know that Life is better than Death?

I don't. But I know Life. And I want to live as much as possible and make as much difference as I can. And if Death turns out to be better than Life, then great

. If not, then at least I have lived a good life.

Markus74 · 12-07-2006, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msd

I don't. But I know Life. And I want to live as much as possible and make as much difference as I can. And if Death turns out to be better than Life, then great

. If not, then at least I have lived a good life.

Fair enough. And you were already lucky in the Lottery of Life! You haven't been born in Sudan or Iraq. Nor have you been a child soldier.

So enjoy it while you can indeed

As we all should.

Hsiang-Lin · 12-07-2006, 08:14 PM

wolfgang, I tried that, but it didn't really work for me. (I'm using the subjective reality model though and since my real identity is my consciousness and not this body, I think you can see why)

Haha, thanks msd

Markus74, I must say my sentiments lie similar to yours. Why do people believe so strongly that life is so much better than death? That makes a lot of sense to me. Perhaps death and afterwards might even be better and we're all deluding ourselves. Hmm, so I think the most positive mindset would be to pursue your dreams and no matter what happens, you still won't be making a "stupid" choice since death is only a transition to something better? Wow, so that would mean there is no such thing as stupidity or negative thoughts being real since they are all pre-assumed attachments to life!

Haha, cool thought.

Brutha · 12-07-2006, 09:18 PM

There are three main reasons:
1) People who commit belief that commiting suicid is the right thing to do commit suicid, therefore there aren't any people left who belief that commiting suicid is the right thing to do. Add a little bit of Darwinismn and it should be clear that it is programmed into our mind that suicid is a bad idea.
2) Because to many people in the Middle Ages thought that going right to haven by commiting suicid is a good idea, the church outlawed it. The pope said that everyone who commits suicid goes to hell. Problem solved.
3) Humanismn has as its agenda that the human life is more valuable then any abstract ideas.

Therefore suicid and Self-Sacrifice is not popular in our western society.

impaul99 · 12-07-2006, 09:20 PM

The two books I recently read "The Disappearance of the Universe" and "Your Imortal Reality: Breaking the Cycle of Life and Death" actually give a very interesting perspective on suicide. I don't know the exact number, but somewhere in there they give the stats of the number of suicides in North America (or maybe it's the world) is actually higher than the number of people who die from war, violent crime, murder etc. The book talks about how it's kind of a silent part of society that nobody wants to talk about unless ofcourse it's a suicide involving a murder of someone else or something that will sell ratings.

In either case, the books give a good perspective on why so many people choose to go that route and how it doesn't really solve the problem they are trying to solve. According to the thinking of the books, the people seeking suicide are actually seeking an escape from this reality (via enlightenment), but just because you kill your body doesn't mean you automatically become enlightened. What the books say happens is you just re-incarnate again with the same problems on and on until you face the problem itself and move past it.

It might sound weird but the energy behind wanting to commit suicide is the same energy as wanting to become enlightened, just applied in a different direction. It stems from the deep feeling there is something deeply wrong with oneself and this world.

I'd recommend taking a look at these two books to see if you find answers in there first, because if the book are right, nothing will be solved by suicide. Trying to escape living another day in this world through suicide could send your consciousness on another journey of birth to whatever age you're at right now with all the pain associated with it and you'll be in the same spot as you are now once again.

The pain involved with suicide and the pain you'd give your family is one thing, but if you do come back again and again over and over again without solving this problem, you could be stuck in an endless loop of birth/pain/suicide until you choose to move past it. The fact that you're on these forums asking questions seems to me like perhaps this is the lifetime you've chosen to take a different path with.

Something to think about.

wolfgang · 12-07-2006, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by impaul99

Trying to escape living another day in this world through suicide could send your consciousness on another journey of birth to whatever age you're at right now with all the pain associated with it and you'll be in the same spot as you are now once again.

Probably more like, after a life that ended in suicide, the next incarnation will have even more pain to go through.

Hsiang-Lin: It's scary to think indentifying with oneness can mean it doesn't matter if you murder yourself. Yikes! Even if this ego world is some sort of illusion I can't see that murder (self murder) is going to produce more harmony. But, now I'm assuming the universe (or SR/oneness) works best with harmony rather than destructive events.

tekart · 12-08-2006, 03:27 PM

Can this be answered without using our knowledge or our identifying with existing rules, laws, beliefs, egos, theories,...etc?

If all of that goes away, is there really anything wrong with suicide (murder)? Is it any different than any other choice we make that creates an result? The impact left behind may be different, but it is your belief on that outcome that makes it different, better or worse.

wolfgang · 12-08-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekart

Can this be answered without using our knowledge or our identifying with existing rules, laws, beliefs, egos, theories,...etc?

If all of that goes away, is there really anything wrong with suicide (murder)? Is it any different than any other choice we make that creates an result? The impact left behind may be different, but it is your belief on that outcome that makes it different, better or worse.

If all that goes away, then there wouldn't be anything there to murder.

Most writings about being closer to oneness describe that state as being more kind to manifested beings. I suppose it's a choice and a view - but most people like to choose less pain than more pain, at least if able to choose. And consciousness likes to be in harmony, I think.

Consciousness is the antidote to entropy.

tekart · 12-08-2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgang

If all that goes away, then there wouldn't be anything there to murder.

Exactly!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Most writings about being closer to oneness describe that state as being more kind to manifested beings. I suppose it's a choice and a view - but most people like to choose less pain than more pain, at least if able to choose. And consciousness likes to be in harmony, I think.

Right so really, this act of kindness is a decision based on the egoic mind (or at least the mind. The ego part is questionable). Anyway, it is the mind's need to label things.

I am not sure consciousness likes anything but rather what we think consciousness likes.

legend · 12-10-2006, 01:23 PM

Look at it from a different view
Why can't life and death both be part of the same journey?
Not to be compared but to be experienced in their own time

By choosing to create your own exit you are depriving the world of all your great gifts
Your unique views, the lessons you are here to teach and learn

Pain is an awsome teacher embrace it for what it is and move on

Self sacrifice (the Buddhist monk) is an out dated way of making a statement that's why you get the reaction you do
The worlds attention span has changed and to see someone light themselves on fire while it used too used to stay with people a lifetime now they switch the channel to see who got voted of survivor

I think the World's conscience has evolved either out of fear of death or respect for life so most don't want to talk on the subject

I am learning that we all connected and leaving your family, friends, even people you think don't like you by your own choice changes the journey for all
always stepping backwards.

There is one thing greater than both life and death that is Love
Give into that my friend
Death will be there waiting for you when your journey brings you to that crossroad

Much Love

12-07-2006, 07:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
Hsiang-Lin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 261	Why is Suicide and Self-Sacrifice so Frowned Upon? "Why do you choose life over death right now?" I deleted my original post because I made some realizations. But here's my latests thoughts. People are often quick to denounce suicide and self-sacrifice. For example, I told my friends and family about the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who performed self-immolation to protest against the government's abuse of Buddhists. Their reaction was, "He could have protested in a better way," or "That's just foolish." This really surprised me. It seems the word, "martyr," has been replaced with foolishness or stupidity. I can also see why. With the rise of terrorism to the forefront of news these days, it's no wonder suicide and self-sacrifice is so frowned upon. But people often say, "Live like you'll die tomorrow." Nowadays, it seems happiness is measured by how ready you are to die at any given moment. And if you tell people you are going to risk your life to pursue a goal or higher cause, they'll say, "Don't be stupid. There's other ways to accomplish what you desire." Surely, they have a point. Death is often not the only solution. Yet, in some extreme cases such as with the Buddhist monk, was it really such a stupid act? Why do people value life so much to the point that risking their lives on any endeavor is considered foolish? Also, if you look at our death from a context outside of our own world, it's not really all negative. If I die, I help save and recycle a lifetime worth of resources for other people. And for those who are just itching to type, "Why don't you commit suicide right now then, eh?" My answer is that it is fear that is preventing me from doing so. My worst fear is fear of death from torture and pain. Also, I do not want to hurt my loved ones. I know my death would impact them the most. Assuming these two factors are taken care of, then yes, I would consider suicide although I wouldn't act on it so brashly without further thought. I wouldn't say I'm depressed at this point. This is just a logical progression of thoughts that has led me to a standstill. Last edited by Hsiang-Lin; 12-07-2006 at 07:54 PM.

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12-07-2006, 07:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
wolfgang Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,566	Somewhere I picked up the idea that suicide is self murder. So reread you rpost and substitute suicide with murder and you'll have a different feeling, I'd think.

12-07-2006, 07:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
Markus74 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 420	Interesting question. Maybe Death is (even) better than Life. Who knows? As for self-sacrifice and suicide, I'd say that everyone is free to do what he wants to do. Except if you're the parent of children, then you have the duty to look after them. Suicide in that case would be a shame and irresponsible. And suicide as a flight from problems is cowardice. But if you're independent and freely chose to die, maybe because you're curious. Why not? Most people don't like such behavior though because it confronts them with the reality of Death and the Unknown.

12-07-2006, 08:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
Hsiang-Lin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 261	wolfgang, I tried that, but it didn't really work for me. (I'm using the subjective reality model though and since my real identity is my consciousness and not this body, I think you can see why) Haha, thanks msd Markus74, I must say my sentiments lie similar to yours. Why do people believe so strongly that life is so much better than death? That makes a lot of sense to me. Perhaps death and afterwards might even be better and we're all deluding ourselves. Hmm, so I think the most positive mindset would be to pursue your dreams and no matter what happens, you still won't be making a "stupid" choice since death is only a transition to something better? Wow, so that would mean there is no such thing as stupidity or negative thoughts being real since they are all pre-assumed attachments to life! Haha, cool thought.

12-07-2006, 09:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
Brutha Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 8,749	There are three main reasons: 1) People who commit belief that commiting suicid is the right thing to do commit suicid, therefore there aren't any people left who belief that commiting suicid is the right thing to do. Add a little bit of Darwinismn and it should be clear that it is programmed into our mind that suicid is a bad idea. 2) Because to many people in the Middle Ages thought that going right to haven by commiting suicid is a good idea, the church outlawed it. The pope said that everyone who commits suicid goes to hell. Problem solved. 3) Humanismn has as its agenda that the human life is more valuable then any abstract ideas. Therefore suicid and Self-Sacrifice is not popular in our western society.

12-07-2006, 09:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
impaul99 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 1,935	The two books I recently read "The Disappearance of the Universe" and "Your Imortal Reality: Breaking the Cycle of Life and Death" actually give a very interesting perspective on suicide. I don't know the exact number, but somewhere in there they give the stats of the number of suicides in North America (or maybe it's the world) is actually higher than the number of people who die from war, violent crime, murder etc. The book talks about how it's kind of a silent part of society that nobody wants to talk about unless ofcourse it's a suicide involving a murder of someone else or something that will sell ratings. In either case, the books give a good perspective on why so many people choose to go that route and how it doesn't really solve the problem they are trying to solve. According to the thinking of the books, the people seeking suicide are actually seeking an escape from this reality (via enlightenment), but just because you kill your body doesn't mean you automatically become enlightened. What the books say happens is you just re-incarnate again with the same problems on and on until you face the problem itself and move past it. It might sound weird but the energy behind wanting to commit suicide is the same energy as wanting to become enlightened, just applied in a different direction. It stems from the deep feeling there is something deeply wrong with oneself and this world. I'd recommend taking a look at these two books to see if you find answers in there first, because if the book are right, nothing will be solved by suicide. Trying to escape living another day in this world through suicide could send your consciousness on another journey of birth to whatever age you're at right now with all the pain associated with it and you'll be in the same spot as you are now once again. The pain involved with suicide and the pain you'd give your family is one thing, but if you do come back again and again over and over again without solving this problem, you could be stuck in an endless loop of birth/pain/suicide until you choose to move past it. The fact that you're on these forums asking questions seems to me like perhaps this is the lifetime you've chosen to take a different path with. Something to think about.

12-08-2006, 03:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
tekart Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26	Can this be answered without using our knowledge or our identifying with existing rules, laws, beliefs, egos, theories,...etc? If all of that goes away, is there really anything wrong with suicide (murder)? Is it any different than any other choice we make that creates an result? The impact left behind may be different, but it is your belief on that outcome that makes it different, better or worse.

12-10-2006, 01:23 PM	#15 (permalink)
legend Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 81	Look at it from a different view Why can't life and death both be part of the same journey? Not to be compared but to be experienced in their own time By choosing to create your own exit you are depriving the world of all your great gifts Your unique views, the lessons you are here to teach and learn Pain is an awsome teacher embrace it for what it is and move on Self sacrifice (the Buddhist monk) is an out dated way of making a statement that's why you get the reaction you do The worlds attention span has changed and to see someone light themselves on fire while it used too used to stay with people a lifetime now they switch the channel to see who got voted of survivor I think the World's conscience has evolved either out of fear of death or respect for life so most don't want to talk on the subject I am learning that we all connected and leaving your family, friends, even people you think don't like you by your own choice changes the journey for all always stepping backwards. There is one thing greater than both life and death that is Love Give into that my friend Death will be there waiting for you when your journey brings you to that crossroad Much Love

Personal Development for Smart PeopleTM Forums

Personal Development for Smart People^TM Forums