self esteem vs. the ego

[Rockchick26]

I touched a little on this in another thread but i didnt want to take over that one by going so in depth about my question,so here goes:

This is regarding Eckhart Tolle's books...i pretty much understand them but i have this one nagging problem. I feel like i should know the answer but i just never thought much about it until today. Before i read his books,i was reading a self esteem workbook which someone recomended i try,because this person thought i had bad self esteem,and i thought maybe there is still some lingering bad feelings there,since my childhood.

So i started this self esteem workbook. Its all about discovering what you are good at,why you are unique,expressing your interests and your personality,and finding things about yourself that you are proud of.

Then i read Tolle's books which basically say not to identify with any of these things because they are not you. Your hobbies are not you,your interests are not you,they are all thoughts and ideas that we should not identify with. Its all the ego. There is no "self".

So how can one have good self esteem when there is no self at all? How can you express your individuality,celebrate your uniqueness,and love yourself when we are all one,we are all the same,and there is no self,really? If things about me dont make me who i am,then where is my identity? Sure my name is Shelly and i like music but,music isnt me,and i am not REALLY Shelly,so...how can one build self esteem when you arent supposed to identify with what makes you YOU?

If you boil away all the things that make a person who they are,what would make us unique? Then we'd be just like animals,only mating with whatever animal you run across next cuz theyre all just the same anyway! I like people for what makes them different than others,so if you take that away,you wouldnt like anyone cuz they'd all be the same!

I suppose this is just my ego fighting for survival,but these are the very things that my self esteem book is trying to get you to build upon. So.. i dont know what to think now.

[Angela]

Hey, Rockchick! I just noticed your photo on your profile, and you are absolutely gorgeous!

You know, I think the focus on self-esteem is one of the brilliant illusions we have created to distract ourselves from who we really are: infinite power, joy, and abundance -- so that we can expand back into who we really are.

What I mean is: Who You Are is the consciousness that is aware of your "individuality" (name, talents, preferences, etc.). Who You Are is Being. And Being is all of us -- we are one Being -- we're all in this together. The avatars named Shelly and Angela are expressions of Being that we use to play the Human Game, but they are not Who We Are. Everything we associate with who our avatars are (we like music, we are such and such height, we live here or there, we are American or Latvian) is a fun expression of the Being that is Who We Are, but it is not actually Who We Are. Like a musician's music is not who she is.

When you are able to really experience the oneness of Being, to let go of identification with "Shelly" or her things and preferences, you can see that the choices you make (like who to mate with, what kind of car you drive, what your career is) are not what make you valuable or beautiful. You don't have to do anything to be valuable or beautiful; you are essential simply because you are. Just like me, just like the guy you admire, just like the people you don't admire, just like everyone.

When you focus on "self-esteem", I think, you set yourself up to reinforce a belief that one avatar could possibly be more inherently valuable than the others, and you want the good one to be you! And when you compare relative value of human beings, you are playing a game that can't be won. There will always be someone who is "superior" to you, someone who will trigger feelings of lack or shame. Wouldn't it be wonderful to opt out of the self-esteem game entirely? And instead to practice recognizing that the reason you see beauty or value in others is because you yourself are that same beauty and value? You can't see it if you don't have it. The more beauty and value you find in others, and recognize in yourself, the more connection you are generating -- and the more you dissipate the illusion that we are separate.

Your wonderful thoughts and choices and lessons could be seen as the game you are playing in life, as opposed to being Who You Are. In this game, you cannot lose. You would just be playing. A little kid lost in a game of let's-pretend doesn't worry about self-esteem, she doesn't worry about making the wrong choices in the game -- she's just playing. All of your choices in life are like that let's-pretend game -- they do have consequences, but consequences are just feedback, not problems.

That's a big part of the fun of the human game -- we get feedback, we correct course, and we keep playing. Of course, it's your game, so you can build self-esteem or relative value of avatars into your game, but can you imagine what would be possible in your life if you didn't believe the thought that you lack self-esteem?

I'm sorry I'm not talking about Tolle so much in my answer to you, but this is the kind of thing that really works for me in living a life I love, so I hope you don't mind my sharing it with you.

[dancer]

Well, that was a great post from Angela, which I need go meditate on.

Shelly, One thing I have noticed when I am totally present is that self-esteem issues do not exist. Everything and everyone is perfect.

[wolfgang]

great quesitons - I'll try my take, not that I really know.

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

So i started this self esteem workbook. Its all about discovering what you are good at,why you are unique,expressing your interests and your personality,and finding things about yourself that you are proud of.

Does this feeling good about yourself form an identity? Is it something that if you lost it, there would be grief?

Then i read Tolle's books which basically say not to identify with any of these things because they are not you. Your hobbies are not you,your interests are not you,they are all thoughts and ideas that we should not identify with. Its all the ego. There is no "self".

Or there is a sense of self that is humble and reverent. Or the sense of self includes other people in some way that what you feel about your regular self is part of everybody as well. An expanding sense of self would be like playing in a band that looks for the group as being good, instead of one individual star in the group (maybe something like that)

So how can one have good self esteem when there is no self at all? How can you express your individuality,celebrate your uniqueness,and love yourself when we are all one,we are all the same,and there is no self,really? If things about me dont make me who i am,then where is my identity? Sure my name is Shelly and i like music but,music isnt me,and i am not REALLY Shelly,so...how can one build self esteem when you arent supposed to identify with what makes you YOU?

I wonder, if one can be in the state of no self, that the issue of having self esteem is not really there any more. If one has transcended individual self, there is no need to work on self esteem. I would think someone like that would naturally be feeling good and is happy about life in general. That self esteem maybe a by product of letting go of needing the self to be a certain way and perform a certain thing or be good at such and such. Ironically. Being humble maybe the best approach to self esteem.

If you boil away all the things that make a person who they are,what would make us unique? Then we'd be just like animals,only mating with whatever animal you run across next cuz theyre all just the same anyway! I like people for what makes them different than others,so if you take that away,you wouldnt like anyone cuz they'd all be the same!

I suppose this is just my ego fighting for survival,but these are the very things that my self esteem book is trying to get you to build upon. So.. i dont know what to think now.

I'm not sure that individuality goes out the window if you do the Tolle thing and not defend your individuality form. It's the attachment to form that is the difficulty. If one can have a form that isn't fixed and clinging to what it is or was or should be - then the form will actually be more beautiful than the version that is stuck in trying to be perfect.

[uberinquisitive]

In the Oprah/Tolle webinars, Tolle received a similar question from this young guy, Josh (I think that's his name).

Josh asked, "what if I want to be a rockstar?"

And Tolle said, "do it! Have fun! Play with form!"

So basically, he's saying: absolutely, please, be a rockstar. However, you can be a rockstar coming from deep presence, or coming from ego. One leads to joy, and the other leads to suffering.

Being the rockstar isn't what causes the joy or suffering...it's where you're coming from.

[Fullcrum]

Exactly, uberinquisitive. It's just that Tolle's 60 years old (hard to believe; he looks young) and he's not really interested in being a rockstar or anything, so you look at him and think "Oh, I'm gonna have to sacrifice my worldly possessions so I can be enlightened, waaaah!"

When in reailty, you don't.

[Angela]

I love that, Uber! "Play with form." Love it.

[pianoperformer]

I think there's a huge diference between enjoying things, and actually identifying with them. Really we should derive enjoyment from anything, but there are certain things that really provide enjoyment. But if they provide a sense of self, separateness, and want, then that is coming from the ego. For instance, going with the rockstar idea, there's a difference between being a rockstar for the enjoyment of it, and being one in order to become the best. The first is from a place of peace and joy, while the latter is from the ego, focusing on separateness and lack.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hey, Rockchick! I just noticed your photo on your profile, and you are absolutely gorgeous!

Thanks! I just recently discovered that you could post a picture on your profile,so i did. I haven't seen anyone else with a picture though so thats why i wasnt aware you could add one. I like to be able to associate a name with a face,even though,in keeping with the subject,our appearances are not who we really are!

I am really surprised at your reply though,because you were the one who told me that i needed to work on my self esteem...this was back when i was still upset over that guy,a few months ago. That is why i bought that workbook. I'm halfway through it now,and it has helped me,but now i'm realizing those things it is trying to help me with are not the same things that can put me on the path to enlightenment. So thats why i am stuck. Thanks for your reply!

[Rockchick26]

Wow,i just had a revelation!! I just realized something major!! I grew up being picked on,ridiculed,shunned,and rejected by all the guys i ever liked. Of course that is going to lead to no self esteem. So,naturally,you try to prove yourself to people,because you are taught that you have to fit in to be liked. And when i grew up and realized that i am not a loser,i realized that the problem was everyone else. Everyone else was judging me and picking on me to make themselves feel better about themselves. And now that i know i am a worthy individual,i feel like i have to make up for lost time and really show people who i am,because nobody saw it before! And its also partly because the way society is,most people respond to you if you have worthwhile qualities...so i've built up my qualities to try to impress them. It seems like you kind of have to do that in order to be noticed,and in order to get people interested in hanging out with you/dating you,etc. You certainly wont attract anyone if youre around a bunch of people talking about things they have in common when youre just standing there smiling being in the moment.

So...at least now i recognize why i act the way i do and why i think the way i do...an "ah ha moment"! Now,the tough part,to actually put it to practice!

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

So how can one have good self esteem when there is no self at all?

Do you see that self-esteem is a trap? It comes from the mind. It's about polarity and comparison to others. That's all ego stuff.

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

You certainly wont attract anyone if youre around a bunch of people talking about things they have in common when youre just standing there smiling being in the moment.

You'll be the only one in that group experiencing ease and joy and not needing to ego-whore yourself to feel better about yourself. If you're truly in the moment, you won't be feeling lack about yourself anyway. There would be no need to constantly tell people how you are better than sliced bread.

[Evan]

I think the mistake that can come with not identifying is that we think we are all the same. As if life was an indifferent energy.

I think life is realised through identity. It manifests differently in all of us. I think it is possible to see all this diversity as beautiful and valuable - this is far from being indifferent.

As we discover where life is leading us, find what absorbs us, then we get beyond ego. This can be in hundreds of ways each day, not just in big things.

Self-esteem becomes less of an issue. We know that we are good at this, not at that, couldn't care less about the other. Through this process we can gain a sense of lightness. In one sense our self-esteem becomes more solid, in another we are less concerned about it.

My difference from Tolle is that I think individuality is valuable. We each have our gifts and beauty. As we get free of competition and comparison we get more in touch with this. I think it was Thomas Merton who said (or someone he quotes): There's just no way to tell people that they are walking around shining like the sun.

[pianoperformer]

Tolle's not saying, I don't think, that we are all the same as far as personality is concerned. That's just the outside shell, and to understand his teachings, that really has to be discarded. He said that essentially, on the level of who we truly are, there is no division between us, as it is all part of that "being" he talks about. That doesn't mean that our individual avatars, so to speak, do not express that being-ness in different ways, in order to experience this world.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Do you see that self-esteem is a trap? It comes from the mind. It's about polarity and comparison to others. That's all ego stuff.

Yeah i realize NOW that the ego and self esteem go hand in hand,but up until now i thought self esteem was not only very important but necessary to achieve social success. And since that was the thing i lacked the most in my life,it isnt sitting too well with me that i have to abandon it just when i was ready to become socially adept! lol

You'll be the only one in that group experiencing ease and joy and not needing to ego-whore yourself to feel better about yourself. If you're truly in the moment, you won't be feeling lack about yourself anyway. There would be no need to constantly tell people how you are better than sliced bread.

I am not saying i go around telling people i'm better than sliced bread...i am just expressing myself,sharing common interests and ideas with people. I dont brag or think i'm better,i simply express myself and try to find other people with the same things in common with me.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Evan

My difference from Tolle is that I think individuality is valuable. We each have our gifts and beauty. As we get free of competition and comparison we get more in touch with this.

i agree with you,and i wish Tolle agreed with us too LOL I think individuality is good. As long as we dont go around feeling better than others because of it. But yes,we all have different gifts and different aspects of beauty,and i dont think celebrating those differences is bad. I am not sure if that is ego or not,i dont think it is though because its not coming from a place of want or jealousy or anger or fear. Its just coming from inside you,its like your inner sun shining out to the world,as long as it doesnt think its the ONLY sun!

[wolfgang]

Is attachment to form low self-esteem?

Does that make sense?

In other words when one is feeling incomplete they will look for things to feel complete and also be having issues of feeling worthy or lovable.

When one is feeling complete (which is a state of non-attachment to form, I think), there is no need to look for things to feel complete and there is acceptance at what ever level of sense of self you have going.

Does having high self esteem actually make you identify with form? Maybe not. Liking yourself is where it starts, and then liking the rest of your environment as part of you can be an expanded sense of self that isn't trying to define a new self but allows awareness to touch your whole sphere of experience.

It's a great question -how to feel god about your self while not identifying with a self. Maybe it's like feeling good about nature or a tree, that you look at yourself as a creation that is worthy of being happy, maybe that's what make unattached self-esteem. I keep thinking about this question, it seems to be an important one.

I bet Tolle would say we should feel good about our self. What happened to him was he was totally depressed and probably had really low self-esteem and then one day said he can't live with himself. Then what happened? He realized that self that he can't live with is not really him. And if you look at him now, he probably likes that self (that isn't him in the spiritual sense) a lot better than when he was all depressed.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

I am not saying i go around telling people i'm better than sliced bread...i am just expressing myself,sharing common interests and ideas with people. I dont brag or think i'm better,i simply express myself and try to find other people with the same things in common with me.

I wasn't implying you actually brag, but just chose the words I did as an example. Usually when people share things about themselves it's: "I'm a ...." ie. I'm a photographer, I'm a school teacher, I'm a doctor...

That's ego and it's fine to use it yourself while you're being in the moment with others, sharing what you do. Your difference will be that in the back of your mind you know you're playing a game with your identity. It's not real, and you know it, and you're free to play with it and not be bound by it anymore.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Tolle's not saying, I don't think, that we are all the same as far as personality is concerned. That's just the outside shell, and to understand his teachings, that really has to be discarded. He said that essentially, on the level of who we truly are, there is no division between us, as it is all part of that "being" he talks about. That doesn't mean that our individual avatars, so to speak, do not express that being-ness in different ways, in order to experience this world.

I really have a problem with this 'level of who we really are' and 'there is no division'. In fact, is not everything you quote here of Tolle just a theory born from his inner experiences

Surely, Tolle's inner experiences are only part of what it means to be human?

[pianoperformer]

Perhaps if Tolle were the only one with this teaching, that could be true. But this idea is as ancient as Hinduism and Buddhism. he just happens to have experienced it first-hand.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Is attachment to form low self-esteem?

Does that make sense?

In other words when one is feeling incomplete they will look for things to feel complete and also be having issues of feeling worthy or lovable.

When one is feeling complete (which is a state of non-attachment to form, I think), there is no need to look for things to feel complete and there is acceptance at what ever level of sense of self you have going.

Does having high self esteem actually make you identify with form? Maybe not. Liking yourself is where it starts, and then liking the rest of your environment as part of you can be an expanded sense of self that isn't trying to define a new self but allows awareness to touch your whole sphere of experience.

It's a great question -how to feel god about your self while not identifying with a self. Maybe it's like feeling good about nature or a tree, that you look at yourself as a creation that is worthy of being happy, maybe that's what make unattached self-esteem. I keep thinking about this question, it seems to be an important one.

I bet Tolle would say we should feel good about our self. What happened to him was he was totally depressed and probably had really low self-esteem and then one day said he can't live with himself. Then what happened? He realized that self that he can't live with is not really him. And if you look at him now, he probably likes that self (that isn't him in the spiritual sense) a lot better than when he was all depressed.

I like the idea of looking at yourself as a creation. I find that easy to believe.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Perhaps if Tolle were the only one with this teaching, that could be true. But this idea is as ancient as Hinduism and Buddhism. he just happens to have experienced it first-hand.

Inner experiences are only 'part' of being human. The experience to the individual is as unique as the perception they form of that experience. If the experience itself is described without the conclusion, what would it be?

I will describe one of my own. I was formless, weightless, blissful and peaceful. What conclusion could I draw from that?

[pianoperformer]

However, there are teachings in, especially Buddhism, about how to reach the same state that he reached. It seems to be something that anyone can experience, and can even live in that state perminantly.

Therefore, I don't know what your point is.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

However, there are teachings in, especially Buddhism, about how to reach the same state that he reached. It seems to be something that anyone can experience, and can even live in that state perminantly.

Therefore, I don't know what your point is.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My point is really about 'the state' itself. The 'state' that you can achieve permanately. The experience itself. The state without thoughts. The state with no awareness of form.

I believe I have experienced it as described in my previous post. What is it? What conclusion could I draw from my experience of it? More importantly, what conclusion has Tolle drawn from his experience of no thoughts, no form and feelings of peace?

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Is attachment to form low self-esteem?

Does that make sense?

In other words when one is feeling incomplete they will look for things to feel complete and also be having issues of feeling worthy or lovable.

When one is feeling complete (which is a state of non-attachment to form, I think), there is no need to look for things to feel complete and there is acceptance at what ever level of sense of self you have going.

Does having high self esteem actually make you identify with form? Maybe not. Liking yourself is where it starts, and then liking the rest of your environment as part of you can be an expanded sense of self that isn't trying to define a new self but allows awareness to touch your whole sphere of experience.

It's a great question -how to feel god about your self while not identifying with a self. Maybe it's like feeling good about nature or a tree, that you look at yourself as a creation that is worthy of being happy, maybe that's what make unattached self-esteem. I keep thinking about this question, it seems to be an important one.

I bet Tolle would say we should feel good about our self. What happened to him was he was totally depressed and probably had really low self-esteem and then one day said he can't live with himself. Then what happened? He realized that self that he can't live with is not really him. And if you look at him now, he probably likes that self (that isn't him in the spiritual sense) a lot better than when he was all depressed.

Yeah i knew the whole story about his depression. But i guess what i'm talking about isnt that,i've never been suicidally depressed,i've just gone through phases in my life where i think it sucks and i didnt know why i couldnt get a boyfriend,etc. but those feelings are normal. What i'm wondering about now is something different though. I am wondering,if someone is enlightened and doesnt identify with their ego,then what becomes of expressing yourself? I mean for one example lets say i get a funky colored hairdo,wear lots of jewelry and tshirts with band names on them... Is that identifying with my ego or is that simply expressing myself in creative ways? How about if i get into a conversation with a person i just met and we talk about our favorite bands and concerts we've been to? Is that identifying too much with my interests (after all,interests are not you!) I just dont know where to draw the line in my every day life regarding expressing myself.

[Angela]

Rockchick, did you watch any of the webinar with Oprah? If not, you can see it on her website. Look at Eckhart Tolle -- does he not seem like a distinct, individual person? There's no one quite like him.

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

So how can one have good self esteem when there is no self at all? How can you express your individuality,celebrate your uniqueness,and love yourself when we are all one,we are all the same,and there is no self,really? If things about me dont make me who i am,then where is my identity? Sure my name is Shelly and i like music but,music isnt me,and i am not REALLY Shelly,so...how can one build self esteem when you arent supposed to identify with what makes you YOU?

If you boil away all the things that make a person who they are,what would make us unique? Then we'd be just like animals,only mating with whatever animal you run across next cuz theyre all just the same anyway! I like people for what makes them different than others,so if you take that away,you wouldnt like anyone cuz they'd all be the same!

What is self-esteem? Is it the delusion you are not a worthwhile person because of some physical or social reason? I think in this 'self-help' day and age like depression/anxiety, lack of self-esteem has found a place to stay too easily.

This is likely because of the Material culture and possibly due to the inadquecies of Bible based religion.

The question is not how to have self-worth when knowing we are all the same.

The question SHOULD BE: Why do I have this delusion I am not as worthy as others?

The Ego ... is your image of you. Based on all your experiences and crap ... you have come to define yourself as some character that you see yourself as. Some people like to push their character further-further (esp. Males) ... this is the Ego-Battle (check out my other posts).

**But essentially as a by-product of self-realisation and imagination ... there came about this intangible creature called the Ego!!!


So in short, question WHY you have lack of self-esteem ... not how to get rid of it!!!


(I will gurantee you, the reason will be so childish or irrelevant you will just kick yourself and smile )

[Evan]

It is possible with reflection to understand where our bad feelings about our self come from.

Knowing that other people have taught us how to see ourselves can be very freeing.

[BillyBlanks24]

Apparantly the Dalai Lama was unable to comprehend the concept of self esteem when he first heard it. "Self esteem? what is that?" he said. For his people it was natural that everybody was whole, complete and accepted as they are.

In the Oprah/Tolle webinars, Tolle received a similar question from this young guy, Josh (I think that's his name).

Josh asked, "what if I want to be a rockstar?"

And Tolle said, "do it! Have fun! Play with form!"

Oh do you know which episode it was? would love to see it please!!

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

Rockchick, did you watch any of the webinar with Oprah? If not, you can see it on her website. Look at Eckhart Tolle -- does he not seem like a distinct, individual person? There's no one quite like him.

Yes i saw the first one,havent had time to watch any more yet but i will. But that isnt what i'm getting at either...i couldnt tell from watching it ANYTHING about him at all other than the fact that he is enlightened. I have no idea what any of his interests are (other than the obvious),i have no idea what other hobbies or talents he has,he didnt express anything physically,and it was a webinar so they had to talk about his book. So i really didnt learn much about him at all from watching that. I guess what i'm talking about would be the stuff you know about a person after going on a date with them or hanging out with them for a few hours. Whatever they're "about". What you would put on your Myspace page. What you would have on your car for a bumper sticker. Those kinds of things.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by blazer1

So in short, question WHY you have lack of self-esteem ... not how to get rid of it!!!


(I will gurantee you, the reason will be so childish or irrelevant you will just kick yourself and smile )

Well i already know why i had low self esteem growing up,i said it in one of my replies up there....i got picked on and ridiculed by pretty much all my classmates,even my so called friends. And no boys ever liked me. That right there'll do it LOL They still dont,but at least now i know i am worthy.