Is the Universe moral?

[Markus74]

Is the Universe moral?

Because it doesn't seem so if the IM people are right. People can manifest all sort of things, independently of whether they're good or evil (like intending cancer, abuse and the like).

How do you cope with an amoral Universe?

[Brutha]

What is moral anyway?

Are trees moral?

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Brutha

What is moral anyway?

How would you define morality then? Or is morality superfluous?

Are trees moral?

Of course not. They're amoral. They cannot act and they don't have intentions.

[Brutha]

Speaking of morality makes only sense when you speak about humans.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Speaking of morality makes only sense when you speak about humans.

Agreed. But I was wondering since people are using 'the Universe' to manifest their intentions, whether this Universe would have certain criteria as to what it would manifest or not. If the Universe can trigger things then it's conscious. And conscious beings cannot be amoral, or can they?

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Markus74

Is the Universe moral?

Because it doesn't seem so if the IM people are right. People can manifest all sort of things, independently of whether they're good or evil (like intending cancer, abuse and the like).

How do you cope with an amoral Universe?

By definition, the Universe is "everything that exists", so morality and immorality are both "parts" of the Universe.
Saying that the Universe is moral or immoral is meaningless.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Frans

By definition, the Universe is "everything that exists", so morality and immorality are both "parts" of the Universe.
Saying that the Universe is moral or immoral is meaningless.

So making love and killing somebody has the same (moral) value?

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Markus74

So making love and killing somebody has the same (moral) value?

If that is your interpretation of my words, then I'm wasting my time here.
Goodbye.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by Frans

If that is your interpretation of my words, then I'm wasting my time here.
Goodbye.

Ok, seems like I misunderstood you. Care to explain yourself then?

[starseed]

I see morality as being personal, what feels good or bad to you decides what morals you hold. "Morals" is a word we have created to define what feels right and wrong for us personally (which seemingly is congruent between most people). I think there is a true set of right and wrong, a universal set of morals if you will that we all hold. It might be easier to use the term logic or the truth you "feel" is true. We feel wrong when we harm each other because in truth we are harming ourselves. When we rob someone we are robbing ourselves, when we lie, we are lying to ourselves and so forth.

[Markus74]

I try to reformulate my question (or maybe this should be moved to the Manifestation sub-forum?):

Since apparently the Universe is there to serve you and to manifest your intentions, I think it would be interesting to know whether or not this Universe is moral or at least censures intentions? Or does it treat all intentions the same way?

[starseed]

It seems like you are looking at the universe as something outside of yourself. The universe is only as moral as you are.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by starseed

It seems like you are looking at the universe as something outside of yourself. The universe is only as moral as you are.

Only as moral as me? Then what about you and the other people?

[starseed]

How we view the universe is how we experience it. Only your perception defines your experience.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by starseed

How we view the universe is how we experience it. Only your perception defines your experience.

How do you mean? Isn't there, for example, a war going on in Iraq and a food crisis in Sudan? Or is that just a product of my perception?

[starseed]

That could be happening, the thought energy you put into it is only reinforcing those situations in your experience.

[TheColonel]

I don't believe in morality either.

Who gets to define it? And why do they get to define it?

What's moral for me, may not be moral to you. And the most dastardly deed may appear pure evil at first - but it may have positive consequences later.

Good and bad are subjective, and at the very most, opposing ends of the same spectrum.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by starseed

That could be happening, the thought energy you put into it is only reinforcing those situations in your experience.

So I am responsible for creating wars? But wouldn't that mean that I was remote-controlling Bush?

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by TheColonel

I don't believe in morality either.

Who gets to define it? And why do they get to define it?

What's moral for me, may not be moral to you. And the most dastardly deed may appear pure evil at first - but it may have positive consequences later.

Good and bad are subjective, and at the very most, opposing ends of the same spectrum.

Subjective? So you would say that raping children may be something moral, depending on your point of view?

[TheColonel]

Markus, I sense that you have already formed an opinion on the subject.

If so, why are you asking the question? Are you baiting for an argument?

I don't defend child-rapists, murderers, torturors, thieves, hypocrites or anyone, for that matter. It's not my job.

I simply believe that behind any situation, there are an infinite number of precursors and consequences. For me to pronounce judgement based on my fixed set of 'morals' would be arrogant.

Also, you stated in an earlier post that trees "cannot act and they don't have intentions." Are you sure? How do you know this?

It seems to me that simply growing is an action. And doesn't intention always precede action?

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Markus74

So I am responsible for creating wars? But wouldn't that mean that I was remote-controlling Bush?

You or bush individually is not responsible for creating wars. The energy from our current state of collective consciousness is creating those situations.

[Markus74]

Originally Posted by TheColonel

Markus, I sense that you have already formed an opinion on the subject.

If so, why are you asking the question? Are you baiting for an argument?

I don't defend child-rapists, murderers, torturors, thieves, hypocrites or anyone, for that matter. It's not my job.

I am honestly curious. And I like to think tings through. And so if the Universe is responsible for manifesting our intentions then a question like the one I asked is very valid I think. Though it's also revealing that people don't seem to like these kind of questions.

I simply believe that behind any situation, there are an infinite number of precursors and consequences. For me to pronounce judgement based on my fixed set of 'morals' would be arrogant.

Do I get this right? So you wouldn't judge a murder or a rape?

Also, you stated in an earlier post that trees "cannot act and they don't have intentions." Are you sure? How do you know this?

Ok, I'm agnostic about this. But it seems like they don't have intentions and don't act. At least they don't defend themselves if you cut or burn them.

It seems to me that simply growing is an action. And doesn't intention always precede action?

No. A robot also performs actions and yet he is programmed and therefore cannot intend things himself.

[Brutha]

Subjective? So you would say that raping children may be something moral, depending on your point of view?

You could call the female genital mutilation in parts of Africa rape, and after their moral code it is "moral".

Do I get this right? So you wouldn't judge a murder or a rape?

Judging for judging sake is useless. You judge to act in a certain way.

[impaul99]

To answer your original question, the universe only cares what you manifest to the extent that You do.

In other words, if you say to yourself "Screw life, I wish I would just die." and "One of these days I'm just gonna kill myself." and things like that over and over again, and end up manifesting cancer in your body or a bad car accident, then so be it. The universe will manifest whatever you want as long as You really want it.

There is no difference, to the universe, between manifesting a needle that a heroin addict will use to inject heroin or a needle that will be used to save the life of the Pope or President. The needle simply is. You apply the morality of the needle according to your awareness.

The universe simply replies to your requests with the words "Your wish is my command."

However, to really understand this whole concept you need to understand that there is actually 3 of "you" when I say the word "you". There's YOU which is the consciousness of the whole universe (you call this universe), there's You (with a capital Y) which is your spiritual consciousness, and then there is you (with a small y) which is your ego. "You" would never manifest murder or rape, only "you" would manifest murder or rape.

"You" manifesting murder would be like "you"r left arm attacking your right arm. Why hurt Yourself. It is only the illusion of your ego being seperate from other ego's that causes things like murder and rape to exist.

If, for example, you and I completely realized that we are both the same thing 100%, we would never hurt eachother because we would be hurting ourselves.

I know your next question is going to be "Then why does murder exist?", and the answer is because our ego's believe we are seperate so what one ego does to the other doesn't matter as long as it doesn't get caught. Therefore, the only "immoral" thought or manifestation is the thought that we are seperate. Everything else is just a sub-manifestation of that single wrong thought.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by impaul99

In other words, if you say to yourself "Screw life, I wish I would just die." and "One of these days I'm just gonna kill myself." and things like that over and over again, and end up manifesting cancer in your body or a bad car accident, then so be it. The universe will manifest whatever you want as long as You really want it.

So, if I intend for you to die, then does that mean you will manifest a terminal illness or something?

Originally Posted by impaul99

If, for example, you and I completely realized that we are both the same thing 100%, we would never hurt each other because we would be hurting ourselves.

Well, we are not 100% the same thing - we have different thoughts, emotions, and beliefs! Not to mention a totally different genetical make-up.

Originally Posted by impaul99

Therefore, the only "immoral" thought or manifestation is the thought that we are seperate. Everything else is just a sub-manifestation of that single wrong thought.

Oh, so because I believe I'm a different person to you, that causes other people to commit rape, murder, child abuse etc. It all makes sense now.

[Andrew Brunelle]

What are morals? Morals are inventions of human consciousness. In nature, there are no morals outside from human existence. If a dog kills a squirrel for food, that is nature. If a dog kills a puppy to end its suffering, it is not right or wrong. It just is. Things should just be. Allow that to be true. When we attach some sort of value to it, it loses its inherent value of just being. At least that's how I see it.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

What are morals? Morals are inventions of human consciousness. In nature, there are no morals outside from human existence. If a dog kills a squirrel for food, that is nature. If a dog kills a puppy to end its suffering, it is not right or wrong. It just is. Things should just be. Allow that to be true. When we attach some sort of value to it, it loses its inherent value of just being. At least that's how I see it.

Yeah stuff the kids, let them be abused, it's nature... right?

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Radical

Yeah stuff the kids, let them be abused, it's nature... right?

I think the point Andrew is making is, 'is the universe moral...according to whom?'

To the animals, they have their own morality. To humans, we have another set of morality, and different cultures have different sets of morality.

If you want to ask the question, 'is the universe moral', might as well ask 'would the universe be moral if there were no-one around?'

[dorothy hanna]

Focus on goodness, and good things and good feelings, and goodness for the highest good of all, and you have made a good choice. You've chosen life.

Focus on lack, and starvation, and violence, and poverty, and disease, and you've chosen to give evil, all, the time of your day, You've chosen death.

When you do this in ignorance, what is needed is someone to explain what is happening, and why.
A teacher, of some kind. Some one who knows, and passes no judgement on you.
Just simply explains it. You take responability by simply saying, "Oh"!!! "I see what has been happening, and now I can change it." "Goody!" "Thank you for pointing that out to me".

The Law Of Attraction, is a LAW. You don't judge it as moral or immoral, any more than you would judge the Law Of Gravity as morally responsable when a person falls to their death. Good person, or bad person. Like the Law of Gravity, you know the rules (how it is applicable), and you adjust your own behaviour accordingl

The Law Of Gravity, and The Law Of Atraction is non-jugmental. Morality is non-applicable.
You bring the judgement of morality to yourself, in your reality when you make judgements of good or bad, on people.
As in, "People who screw up don't desreve anything good to happen to them".
Lo', and behold, you, yourself, screw up, and your own judgement is called down upon you, just as you have judged.
"Judge not, for just as you have judged, so shall you be judged". It's in the Bible.

[Markus74]

If the Universe, the LoA, etc don't judge and don't have morals then what prevents Evil?

I really don't get this logic. If those theories are true then did Hitler intend the Holocaust or the Jews? And doesn't the fact that the Holocaust manifested mean that the Universe, the LoA or whatever (if they indeed exist) helped to create it?