we don't know what we believe

[wolfgang]

It occurs to me there is so much we do believe that just seems to be. Like gravity or matter being solid. Why is that?

It's like we have a bundle of beliefs just because of being in this 3d world. If everything in the world is there because of what we believe, then we believe a ton of stuff automatically. I don't remember deciding to believe in gravity or solid matter. And are not all beliefs something that I created?

Some will say we can't levitate because we believe gravity pulls us to the earth. That it's only our limited belief system. Where are these beliefs from?

And what about our bodies? Why do we believe we are a separate being in a body with a boundary at, say, the skin level, where "myself" ends and the rest of the world begins?

So, of these ingrained beliefs - how do we unbelieve them? If we could not believe anything at all, would we be able to know reality directly? Is it possible to unbelieve something about the "objective" world? Sure we all can say we like to believe in some sort of subjective reality - but do you really? Or are you just parroting something you'd like to believe? What would it really be like to not believe all the ingrained beliefs about the 3d world? What other beliefs could we have that would allow reality to be more "real" - or more as it is instead of so colored by our belief system?

I don't know if I made any sense or have a point. But there are some questions in there - if you feel prompted to reply, thanks.

[hollowman]

Wow! What a thought! Well i guess we will never know...

Your issue reminds me of how we used to believe that the earth is the center of the universe and scientists who believed otherwise were persecuted. Then later we come to know the fact that it is so very untrue! Talk about the archaic belief that the earth is flat!!!

I think it is not unwise to believe that the contemporary scientific theories may be test and even altered some time in near (or distance future). We'll never know...

As for the present, just let what is proven to be true, to be true. Things which are subjective to personal perspective to be kept within the circle of belief/thought. No harm done...

Just a piece of my thought...

[wolfgang]

The thing about the flat world or the earth being the center of the universe, is that we now can see how those two views could be taking as true before other view showed up.

Now we have some other views about matter. That science is telling us matter is not really solid. It's mostly space with some sort of energy holding really small "particles" together. So is it possible to believe that matter is really mostly space to the point that we aren't bound to it being solid?

If reality is only what we have come to believe, where's the limit if we can change our beliefs? And then why have we come to believe, together, in the physical laws? Maybe it's a hand me down belief system and we agreed to believe it but don't really have to. That we aren't really bound by physical reality as we know it to be with predominant science theory. Maybe we can do all the things quantum particles/waves do.

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Some will say we can't levitate because we believe gravity pulls us to the earth. That it's only our limited belief system. Where are these beliefs from?

I'm not so sure if it's meant to be taken literally. Possibly that if you believe "you are" you're belief system than you'll never be able to levitate. (or surpass whatever you thought wasn't possible?) That sounds to me like the logical way to think about it

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

And what about our bodies? Why do we believe we are a separate being in a body with a boundary at, say, the skin level, where "myself" ends and the rest of the world begins?

So, of these ingrained beliefs - how do we unbelieve them? If we could not believe anything at all, would we be able to know reality directly? Is it possible to unbelieve something about the "objective" world? Sure we all can say we like to believe in some sort of subjective reality - but do you really? Or are you just parroting something you'd like to believe? What would it really be like to not believe all the ingrained beliefs about the 3d world? What other beliefs could we have that would allow reality to be more "real" - or more as it is instead of so colored by our belief system?

I don't know if I made any sense or have a point. But there are some questions in there - if you feel prompted to reply, thanks.

Individuals believe that last quote because they can feel it on a deep level. They can feel the connection they have to most everything and they can feel how they are related. Looking at it from a perspective of logic will never give you an answer...but if you can feel it you will find the answer.

Lastly why would you want to unbelieve truth in the universe? Yes gravity is there, yes matter too, why would you want to unbelieve that:: that'll just make you go crazy. I think you're just thinking too hard. Discovering your true self isn't really developing all these newfangled (not sure thats a word lol) beliefs and dissecting every part of the unknown world. It's more or less following your purpose and doing what you really want to do. From there the universe will come to you

[wolfgang]

Just wondering about limiting beliefs, how deep our assumed limits are.

And how we hear of miracles and often the miracle is related to the individual believing something other than the norm. Which makes me think the norm is not quite right.

[Dannyboy1]

The truth is our world could be turned upside down tomorrow. There are a lot of scientific theories out there that have been around so long, people just take them as fact because they've never been disproved. I mean, one of the most amazing things to me is scientists still have no idea what really causes gravity. They've got a few guesses, but no proof. Why is everything... the atmosphere, metals, liquids, gases, all the elements... why is everything not just flung off when the earth spins?

I think many of the problems in the world occur because people forget that beliefs are not facts. They're beliefs. No one truly knows anything. It's good to have beliefs, but be open to letting them change. Don't slather them with cement and bury them inside you. Keep them out in the open tend to them like a garden. Examine them periodically to see if they still hold water. Reshape them as needed. Be open to things that challenge them. In fact, welcome the challenge with open arms. A challenge can only help confirm or improve by modification or replace them with something better. Why wouldn't you want that? That's like saying, "My TRS-80 is, was, and will always be the best computer ever invented!" Beliefs need to evolve like everything else. Why wouldn't you want that?

[coLLege kid07]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Just wondering about limiting beliefs, how deep our assumed limits are.

And how we hear of miracles and often the miracle is related to the individual believing something other than the norm. Which makes me think the norm is not quite right.

It's like they say.."your beliefs/thoughts control your world"

I picked up a really good saying the other day off a t.v. show.

10% of your day is dark. 10% is light. The other 80% is your choice. What is your choice

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It occurs to me there is so much we do believe that just seems to be. Like gravity or matter being solid. Why is that?

It's like we have a bundle of beliefs just because of being in this 3d world. If everything in the world is there because of what we believe, then we believe a ton of stuff automatically. I don't remember deciding to believe in gravity or solid matter. And are not all beliefs something that I created?

Some will say we can't levitate because we believe gravity pulls us to the earth. That it's only our limited belief system. Where are these beliefs from?

And what about our bodies? Why do we believe we are a separate being in a body with a boundary at, say, the skin level, where "myself" ends and the rest of the world begins?

So, of these ingrained beliefs - how do we unbelieve them? If we could not believe anything at all, would we be able to know reality directly? Is it possible to unbelieve something about the "objective" world? Sure we all can say we like to believe in some sort of subjective reality - but do you really? Or are you just parroting something you'd like to believe? What would it really be like to not believe all the ingrained beliefs about the 3d world? What other beliefs could we have that would allow reality to be more "real" - or more as it is instead of so colored by our belief system?

I don't know if I made any sense or have a point. But there are some questions in there - if you feel prompted to reply, thanks.

Mate, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. And look at how you responded:

expression then thought, or thought then expression?

I know I wrote that in the context of self-improvement, but I also included this paragraph:

So if the Universe suggests that jumping off a cliff is not a good idea, then my mind will probably believe it. But if I was to artificially create the notion (100 percent belief) of me defying gravity, then will it actually express itself physically?

What conclusion I am leaning towards is, the Universe (i.e. stimulus to the five + 1 senses) will present to you a constant. But the mind is forever changing as a tool for intepretation, therefore our 'belief' or in other words our perception is also changing. Perhaps at the very moment our mind is not evolved enough to properly percieve, therefore our belief is also limited.

Perhaps the algorithm of perception towards a belief is written in one of many such ways.

If we changed the algorithm, it may mean a rock is not always solid. Perhaps nothing is solid, perhaps gas, liquid and solids arent even relevant ... we need to be open to these possibilities otherwise we will not ever step outside of the square!

The Universe will likely exist without anyone perceiving it ... (if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound if there is no one there, type thing) ... But our perception of the Universe DOES NOT define the Universe ... it co-exists.

Our beliefs, or perceptions are forever mutating for the better ...


Edited bit: wasn't there some experiment that showed light must be perceived to exist?

[Acting Like Godot]

In "Seth Speaks" (which I haven't finished reading), the explanation is as follows. There are actually a great number of different realities, each of which has their own fundamental rules.

Conscious beings which choose to enter any particular reality have already agreed to largely accept those fundamental rules.

Rules which define our particular reality include space and time (and I assume, gravity as well). There are many realities which simply don't abide by those rules.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In "Seth Speaks" (which I haven't finished reading), the explanation is as follows. There are actually a great number of different realities, each of which has their own fundamental rules.

Conscious beings which choose to enter any particular reality have already agreed to largely accept those fundamental rules.

Rules which define our particular reality include space and time (and I assume, gravity as well). There are many realities which simply don't abide by those rules.

Ask Seth if these rules we agree to have are being correctly understood. Or how fixed are these rules? I'm not in need to bend reality as it is, it's pretty cool enough already. Yet, we have potential that is being limited by what we think these rules are. Like in terms of healing our bodies, say - in a mind over matter way. Or our thoughts/ feelings making our DNA do things. "Good" feelings actually make DNA relax and be less all wound up like we typically see the diagram. Then I would think a relaxed DNA could replicate without error better or replicate with the next right permutation for the environment or desire.

Maybe the rules became fundamental by our consciousness choosing it. In other words, the reality wasn't there until we entered into it. And we entered into it with our consciousness deciding on some rules. And those rules are actually our beliefs.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by blazer1

expression then thought, or thought then expression?

thanks for the linking that. Somehow I am still wondering about the fixed nature of 3d. Spiritual momentum... I guess if we decided to have a reality with rules that allow us to believe in it, then it seems we could feel that. That original decision to enter a given reality and agree to the rules, or to decide how we want it to be should be a feeling or a memory in us (but some super cellular somatic DNA memory thing)

I know I wrote that in the context of self-improvement, but I also included this paragraph:

What conclusion I am leaning towards is, the Universe (i.e. stimulus to the five + 1 senses) will present to you a constant. But the mind is forever changing as a tool for intepretation, therefore our 'belief' or in other words our perception is also changing.

or the constant is consciousness and the mind is a changeable tool that interprets consciousness with beliefs and perceptions, which shows us the universe.

Perhaps at the very moment our mind is not evolved enough to properly percieve, therefore our belief is also limited.

then is this a limiting belief in itself? To believe the mind is not evolved enough to properly perceive? That is is possible to perceive without a conditioned mind and "see" the universe for what it is and as such see it as more flexible than we've been led to believe.

Perhaps the algorithm of perception towards a belief is written in one of many such ways.

If we changed the algorithm, it may mean a rock is not always solid. Perhaps nothing is solid, perhaps gas, liquid and solids arent even relevant ... we need to be open to these possibilities otherwise we will not ever step outside of the square!

It does seem like an algorithm. some sort of code running that we designed to be able to have this experience.

The Universe will likely exist without anyone perceiving it ... (if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound if there is no one there, type thing) ... But our perception of the Universe DOES NOT define the Universe ... it co-exists.

I'm not sure what to believe with that point. Our perception may not define the universe - but our consciousness may be defining or bringing forth the universe by our placement or focus of consciousness.

Our beliefs, or perceptions are forever mutating for the better ...


Edited bit: wasn't there some experiment that showed light must be perceived to exist?

Yeah, there are some cool experiments which should make us think differently about matter and light. I've not looked into them though in a studious way.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It occurs to me there is so much we do believe that just seems to be. Like gravity or matter being solid. Why is that?

When you were a baby, you didn't believe any of that ridiculousness.

It's like we have a bundle of beliefs just because of being in this 3d world. If everything in the world is there because of what we believe, then we believe a ton of stuff automatically. I don't remember deciding to believe in gravity or solid matter. And are not all beliefs something that I created?

The self can only exist relative to something else. In other words, what would "you" be if there was no 3d world? No self, no world. This is all just a big ocean of consciousness.

When we say that belief creates all things, it's a contextual statement. Consider the example I used with a CNC machine. There is an absolute offset that tells the machine where the machine is. Then there is a relative offset that tells the machine where the part is relative to itself. Our beliefs are a relative offset.

Some will say we can't levitate because we believe gravity pulls us to the earth. That it's only our limited belief system. Where are these beliefs from?

And what about our bodies? Why do we believe we are a separate being in a body with a boundary at, say, the skin level, where "myself" ends and the rest of the world begins?

There is gravity and separate bodies for the same reason that people flirt and have foreplay. To really enjoy limitlessness, there has to be this release of being limited.

Like would you want to fly if there was no gravity? Would you want to know unity if you weren't separated? I think this points to why this place does exist. Mainly because it's entertaining.

So, of these ingrained beliefs - how do we unbelieve them? If we could not believe anything at all, would we be able to know reality directly? Is it possible to unbelieve something about the "objective" world? Sure we all can say we like to believe in some sort of subjective reality - but do you really? Or are you just parroting something you'd like to believe? What would it really be like to not believe all the ingrained beliefs about the 3d world? What other beliefs could we have that would allow reality to be more "real" - or more as it is instead of so colored by our belief system?

I don't know if I made any sense or have a point. But there are some questions in there - if you feel prompted to reply, thanks.

The best answer I got is: be awareness. Awareness has no limitations like a body or a belief system. Awareness can go anywhere and do anything. Awareness can make this place into Wolfgang's Wonder Emporium.

That's my answer for today.

Namaste

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

There is gravity and separate bodies for the same reason that people flirt and have foreplay. To really enjoy limitlessness, there has to be this release of being limited.

then limits are needed only to be able to not have them.

Like would you want to fly if there was no gravity? Would you want to know unity if you weren't separated? I think this points to why this place does exist. Mainly because it's entertaining.

Yeah, there'd have to be some payout for unrooting beliefs. I don't need to fly. Unity is something I have sensed and I think that's a key to beliefs that are accurate or not having to carry conditioned beliefs. Entertainment, but looking for peace and fullness and joy and expression. But also curious and wouldn't mind being entertained - where entertained is a form of joy for all. Not a distraction from doing what has to be done.

The best answer I got is: be awareness. Awareness has no limitations like a body or a belief system. Awareness can go anywhere and do anything. Awareness can make this place into Wolfgang's Wonder Emporium.

That's my answer for today.

Namaste

crack me up - Wolfgang's Wonder Emporium! I agree with that our awareness is unlimited and even more so our imagination. We can imagine to our heart's content, no limits there, right?

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

The best answer I got is: be awareness. Awareness has no limitations like a body or a belief system. Awareness can go anywhere and do anything. Awareness can make this place into Wolfgang's Wonder Emporium.

That's my answer for today.

Namaste

When you speak of Awareness ... what do you mean? Is Awareness concentration on your own thoughts, and further self-realisation?

[NightSpirit]

I've been thinking some things along these same lines as related to my faith in trying to understand what Jesus meant when he said we could do the things he did and greater things?

As is a common theme around here, I don't really want to get into a debate about the Bible or the stupidity of believing in the symbolism and all that. I am not trying to convert anyone. If you want to believe the Bible is a fable, that's okay with me, but that doesn't mean there's not some understanding to be gained within the fable.

But I do believe these things really happened and having had a few successes in altering my thoughts and seeing the results in my reality, I have a better understanding of the truth in the Bible on what it says about the power of our beliefs.

I'm past believing whether Jesus walked through walls and through a crowd that couldn't touch Him, and on to studying how he did it and find out how my beliefs might be in the way of doing those things.

Like in the walking on the water thing, I know Jesus could have called all to molecules into to a different pattern and made them firm but he also could have just flown out to the boat since he controls the wind. So what is in this example to me to understand?

But not only Jesus but Peter also walked on water. Jesus said "Come" and as Peter walked on water, he sank when he looked at the wind around Him. The symbolism would be "Keep your eyes on Jesus and you won't sink when a storm comes". Or I can go past that and try to see how Peter's beliefs caused him to sink? He obviously didn't stop believing in Jesus. Did he just start believing more in the wind or himself and the weirdness of what he was doing? But if I figure it out and can walk on water that doesn't make the symbolism not also true.

I can just believe God is God and he can do anything through me and I don't need to understand how or if it's even possible in science. Or can changing my beliefs about the science change the science?

Does knowing the science or the reason something happens make it easier to believe what he said that "All things are possible with God?" Or can I just skip trying to understand and just believe God can do anything and get results?

If we can get down to the crux of knowing how thoughts form in our brain and my be interconnected to what we attract to ourselves on a scientific measurable level, does that point us away from God because we understand it or to God because the system is fearfully and wonderfully made? We don't need a miracle for gravity but isn't it still miraculous?

Am I seeking to do greater things to prove to me it works or in doing greater things will I understand more about Him?

Oh, well, I just want to better believe it, then see it and understand the power of my beliefs.

[wolfgang]

YouTube - Criss Angel Walks on Water

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

If we can get down to the crux of knowing how thoughts form in our brain and my be interconnected to what we attract to ourselves on a scientific measurable level, does that point us away from God because we understand it or to God because the system is fearfully and wonderfully made? We don't need a miracle for gravity but isn't it still miraculous?

Am I seeking to do greater things to prove to me it works or in doing greater things will I understand more about Him?

Oh, well, I just want to better believe it, then see it and understand the power of my beliefs.

I guess it's a matter of getting our logical brain to come a long for the ride somehow by either reading about accounts and how science is out there too or by just looking into how to un-believe so we can see clearly. I do think a lot the Jesus stuff is right in there to look at as a way to see clearly and un-limit ourselves. I think also there probably was a lot more about how Jesus did what he did taken out of the texts because churches saw it as dangerous for the "common" man to deal with.